Filling the Gaps: following in the footsteps of the Wildwood and the Angle

[Arnand_the_Fox]

As for Umbar, assuming the plan is indeed redoing the entire Gondor on After and there is no way in the world they would move everything North to give Harad/Umbar some breathing room on that map, then I guess this is the best (and most likely) option for how to handle map situation:

- One massive border/invisible wall/teleport border on sea.

- Harnen as border, with one or few teleport points where appropriate.

- Housing area with open-space invisible borders, like Breeland Homesteads now. (But upon entry actually ports you to housing in old Gondor space, and yeah, hopefully with new terrain changes brought over : )

- On brand new open world map, as in "region 6" "the South", Umbar space initially in its own bubble, but well-placed so enough space North for all the ground that needs to be covered to Harnen. And with some foresight... put in the top left corner of the heightmap file (though with some wiggle room for expanding sea borders to the West, just in case for whatever reason, for boat action, cursed Othbreaker vessels, or maybe if they ever have ideas for some island expansion in these Southern lands?)

- Proportion-wise, as I very roughly demonstrated, Umbar bay may be expanded quite a bit for cool worldbuilding and immersion purposes (come on, those Corsairs war fleets, present day or flashbacks, gotta have some space on the waters! The way it was done in Gondor was incredibly cluttered, fine back then, but a bit too cluttered if you wanna have player boats or scenic Corsair landscapes). Since it would be on another map, after a teleport, wouldn't really be too jarring, if the bay was overblown compared to what we had in Gondor for such places and coastal areas. Not much different from overblown Mt Doom or Evendim.


Now, if Umbar is like in addition to Gondor landscape (??) as part of one expansion (?), which is still a bit weird and unclear to me whether that's what Scenario meant, I guess the size of landscape on my roughly done picture above seems too insane and impossible - but, but... if they're smart with these boats and if they're actually making traversable/quest-able water a reality, then the realistic - and still sizeable, impressive, scenic, COOL scenario - may be to do just the BAY ALONE, as in expansive water in the bay, with bits of shores here and there and the city/smaller surroundings. Now, THAT I can understand. The Northern mountains of the bay might create such a neat barrier and we don't even need that entire northern bit of land initially. But then they can easily grow the world around Umbar from there and fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle, oh and also take that land (and sea) route back to Gondor. Though maybe we could also take a "quick ship" back to Pelargil and get back to Nurn from there at some point too or someplace else, so it's not like 2-4 years dedication of growing the South alone.

With the exception of the Vales of Anduin being too elongated, pushing the rest of the northern realm stuff too far north, the in-game stable master map has pretty accurately matched the size/positioning of the game world thus far. Barring some random huge change to how they do maps/the stablemaster map. We can probably get a pretty good estimation of what we'll get with Umbar.



Going by this the bay of Umbar/Umbar bay would be about the size of North Ithilien + a part of South Ithilien. I could see them making an Osgilliath sized city for Umbar, and do a combo of North + part of South Ithilien for the cape around it.

[TesalionLortus]

About Landorrim and Narfanghoth clans, I think they may yet have their own lands someplace. Like, those who actually continued to live with Longbeards for so long would just assimilate I guess? Well, at least some of them. But the fact they still keep their kings plus the fall of Moria so they needed to find new homes anyway. Maybe they actually returned West and settled somewhere around Ered Luin, in the as of yet unexplored lands of the game. Unlike Longbeards, having just single small dwellings would be quite right for them, so no oversaturation of dwarves in other parts of Ered Luin/Farlindon.

With the exception of the Vales of Anduin being too elongated, pushing the rest of the northern realm stuff too far north, the in-game stable master map has pretty accurately matched the size/positioning of the game world thus far. Barring some random huge change to how they do maps/the stablemaster map. We can probably get a pretty good estimation of what we'll get with Umbar.

Going by this the bay of Umbar/Umbar bay would be about the size of North Ithilien + a part of South Ithilien. I could see them making an Osgilliath sized city for Umbar, and do a combo of North + part of South Ithilien for the cape around it.

That would be incredibly small though (like you're able to see everything and even large parts of Harad from some higher tower in Umbar, and would need a very dense fog around), so I really don't see any reason for them to make things less impressive here - especially that they can just focus on water features/coasts, and leave the rest for some other time. And, considering boats, the bay the size of Evendim and smaller than Bay of Forochel would be definitely meh. Like, sure, technically if we go by the book of proportions that Umbar bay wouldn't translate into anything big, but Mt Doom or Long Lake shouldn't either, so it's not like exception can't be made where makes worldbuilding sense. And let's be real... Evendim was near launch of the game... way way back... and that was just a lake... Say, if they introduced boats, Evendim-sized bay isn't as impressive nor a lot of room for maneuver. With Corsair ships + you can theoretically put some smaller islands or Swanfleet like messy, wet shores, something the size of Evendim would become overcrowded very quickly with not enough breathing room.

Besides, anyway, woulnd't trust that stable master map that got created a long time before any worldbuilding started happening or when they didn't even know where they will put things. And yeah, it doesn't seem to be all that accurate because isn't a good representation of in-game world terrain, something all these overview maps desperately need (well, they can't be 100% accurate on global map of all Middle-earth because not all proportions match between regions, but in this case they should go with accurate depiction for Rhovanion and rest, and mess more with Eriador and stretch it out to push everything further North)

[TesalionLortus]

I could see them making an Osgilliath sized city for Umbar, and do a combo of North + part of South Ithilien for the cape around it.

Anyway, I guess you're not wrong in the amount of landmass work they might have available for this (all of that Gondor taken into account), but you might as well apply it to that rough sketch I posted, but like this:





The bottom line here being their worldbuilding actually becomes modern/more impressive, and not that cluttered, rather than double down on clutter and compression because they in rush to cover land. Plus, something important to remember I think.... we really *don't need* to cover all ground and go everywhere. Like that Northern part of the cap with mountains, they can just make it fully inaccessible and have open world on seas around it, maybe just some little nooks and crannies or hidden caves. Put some distant coastal settlements and forestation too, so it's not just big wide mountain across the entire thing. But the landmass would be there and the world and sense of wonder would feel, well, bigger.

While the compressed Iron Hills are really such an eye sore, they're somewhat similar example. I don't exactly need them to create a playable, traversable Eastern Iron Hills. But when they move Eastward on the map, they can just have an inaccessible border in the form of Eastern stretch of Iron Hills, to show they aren't really just this tiny space next to Erebor and what's traversable is merely tip of an iceberg, so Jarnfast would be actually somewhere at 1/3 of the chain.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

About Landorrim and Narfanghoth clans, I think they may yet have their own lands someplace. Like, those who actually continued to live with Longbeards for so long would just assimilate I guess? Well, at least some of them. But the fact they still keep their kings plus the fall of Moria so they needed to find new homes anyway. Maybe they actually returned West and settled somewhere around Ered Luin, in the as of yet unexplored lands of the game. Unlike Longbeards, having just single small dwellings would be quite right for them, so no oversaturation of dwarves in other parts of Ered Luin/Farlindon.

People live within larger groups and still manage to maintain individuality and culture. We see this in real life with "Chinatowns" and the like. They wouldn't necessarily assimilate into the Longbeards to such an extent they would vanish. And after the fall of Moria they did find a place to live, it was Erebor. At least until Smaug pushed them out, and they were all forced to go back to the Blue Mountains, and found Thorin's Hall.

That would be incredibly small though (like you're able to see everything and even large parts of Harad from some higher tower in Umbar, and would need a very dense fog around), so I really don't see any reason for them to make things less impressive here - especially that they can just focus on water features/coasts, and leave the rest for some other time. And, considering boats, the bay the size of Evendim and smaller than Bay of Forochel would be definitely meh. Like, sure, technically if we go by the book of proportions that Umbar bay wouldn't translate into anything big, but Mt Doom or Long Lake shouldn't either, so it's not like exception can't be made where makes worldbuilding sense. And let's be real... Evendim was near launch of the game... way way back... and that was just a lake... Say, if they introduced boats, Evendim-sized bay isn't as impressive nor a lot of room for maneuver. With Corsair ships + you can theoretically put some smaller islands or Swanfleet like messy, wet shores, something the size of Evendim would become overcrowded very quickly with not enough breathing room.

I mean that really isn't a small space for in-game map size. Its a fairly large exploreable area. And Umbar is, as far as we know, next to the deserts of Near Harad. You wouldn't even need fog, you just need fake desert in the distance, which is incredibly easy to do. Umbar is supposed to be the closest kingdom in Harad to Gondor, and Near Harard is said to be a giant desert. Its not like theres some big empire right out there SSG would have to worry about showing. All the Harad kingdoms are to the south in what would likely be the more savanna/jungle regions of Harard.

Besides, anyway, woulnd't trust that stable master map that got created a long time before any worldbuilding started happening or when they didn't even know where they will put things. And yeah, it doesn't seem to be all that accurate because isn't a good representation of in-game world terrain, something all these overview maps desperately need (well, they can't be 100% accurate on global map of all Middle-earth because not all proportions match between regions, but in this case they should go with accurate depiction for Rhovanion and rest, and mess more with Eriador and stretch it out to push everything further North)

Except the stable-master map wasn't just created a long time before any world building started happening, or when they didn't even know where they will put things. Its been regularly updated through LOTRO's lifespan, and the stable master dots accurately match up to the in-game geography, and locations, of the actual stable masters for like 80% of the game map. With only the Values of Anduin and northward being distorted. If anything they should just undistort the vales to make it match up instead of having it not for no reason.

[TesalionLortus]

I doubt they already sorted out/figured out all the map issues by the time the extended map was introduced.

I mean that really isn't a small space for in-game map size. Its a fairly large exploreable area.

Would be basically the size of Evendim dry land but city larger than Annuminas, plus the water itself like lake Evendim or even smaller. If we go by that stable master map example and all of the ground around the bay actually covered/traversable. That's... not as fairly large. And on an actual traversable boat you would speed launch from one shore to the other before you even blink so a sense of time it takes to travel, including the land portions, would have been diminished. Meh for immersion in something that should actually be very attractive, sight seeing, immersive, distant place

[Phantion]

The Yellow Mountains are generally placed in the southern part of the Dark Lands, which were seemingly removed from Middle Earth when Iluvatar made the world round instead of flat.

It said when the changing of the world happened the empty lands were cast back, and new lands(The Americas) were made. Christopher Tolken has said he interpreted this as his father meaning the lands of the Sun, and the Dark Lands, got removed from the world since there was no known inhabitants of those lands. So the Yellow Mountains got poofed from the world.

And your wrong about there being an error with Beleriand. Beleriand proper was west of the Blue Mountains yes, as it is shown in that map. However all the maps of Beleraind show the landmass continuing to the south beyond the Beleriand map proper, with the coast being far more west then the current coast of Middle Earth goes. Most maps I've seen take this as lands south of Beleriand also sunk during the collapse, to form the current coasts we have now, since the two coasts simply don't match up otherwise. This is also based on some crude skteches Tolken made that show the coastline down to Gondor being more rounded(with the Andrast peninsula being absent), and sticking out further, in the early days.

Thanks for the correction! Actually, that makes a ton of sense.

I still think the Orocarni's location is somewhat flexible since that original map you posted is drawn like a globe rather than a flat map (*the old: if you sailed from America straight east in a straight line, would you run into Spain, France, or Ireland question: well, depends on from where you launch and how you arc it, since the "straight line" is impossible in reality and would only work if the Earth was flat rather than round). Evidently, the Orocarni are - that far East - and so, the flat maps of Middle-earth then become pretty distorted compared to the globe version that's more realistic. That does introduce an anachronism in Fonstad's map though as it depicts SA Arda as a globe without the cataclysm in the second half of that Age making the world from flat to round. So, technically, in that representation, from what you're saying, the Lands of the Sun and the Dark Lands, etc., should be gone, a certain island Empire should have sank beneath a great wave, and Aman should be removed from the circles of the World for that map to work as a globe rather than a "flat map." Feel free to correct me further- I'm learning from you on this stuff

---

As for Umbar, honestly, I'm just going to lower my expectations and get pleasantly surprised (*or not) if anything changes (or doesn't change) in their plans. I'll expect the second half of King's Gondor and just a port-mechanism / dock-master to the actual City of the Corsairs, with the gates of the city as the bounds. If we get more than that, I'll be happier But at least I won't be disappointed (*well, not as much) either- it's a good mental trick

Cheers!

[k40rne]

Just because the Narfanghoth(Firebeards), and Landorrim(Broadbeams), went to live with the Longbeards in Moria at the end of the First Era doesn't mean they don't retain their own lineages/kings.

We see the kings of both, Agni the Wild(Landorrim), and Bloodwhisker(Narfanghoth), in Blood of Azog. Both likely became protectorate kingdoms under the larger Longbeard kingdom. Once the Stout Axes figure out who is the next leader of thier clan they will likely become the same given how they've basically moved in with the Longbeards in Erebor.

So we should see more of their influence in longbeard culture (in at least some of the protectorates) unless they were both subsumed after the 2nd age; hopefully we see this reflected in some more unexplored settlements, like in Ered Nimrais & Ered Luin Cities like Sarnur etc

Also, I did some ethnography of these quite distinct dwarf clans from blood of Azog via the wiki page and we see the Zhelruka modelled basically on Russians, the Landerimm are quite darkly armoured & seem to be where the Dourhands originated from (not entirely sure on their analogue culture). The Langfarnoth maybe more Irish (not really much to go on) besides the red beards; Drogar Bloodwhisker does look like a bit like a slayer from Warhammer, though. Abnúzhu have a very Egyptian style to them, so these could easily be put in Harad, whilst the Temámir have a Byzantine look, so more likely they'd be in Rhun or its outer lands. The Anfangrim or longbeards have always been Nordic, & the Kambrada seem to be more Slavic.

[Arnand_the_Fox]

So we should see more of their influence in longbeard culture (in at least some of the protectorates) unless they were both subsumed after the 2nd age; hopefully we see this reflected in some more unexplored settlements, like in Ered Nimrais & Ered Luin Cities like Sarnur etc

Also, I did some ethnography of these quite distinct dwarf clans from blood of Azog via the wiki page and we see the Zhelruka modelled basically on Russians, the Landerimm are quite darkly armoured & seem to be where the Dourhands originated from (not entirely sure on their analogue culture). The Langfarnoth maybe more Irish (not really much to go on) besides the red beards; Drogar Bloodwhisker does look like a bit like a slayer from Warhammer, though. Abnúzhu have a very Egyptian style to them, so these could easily be put in Harad, whilst the Temámir have a Byzantine look, so more likely they'd be in Rhun or its outer lands. The Anfangrim or longbeards have always been Nordic, & the Kambrada seem to be more Slavic.

Well, according to LOTR lore, there are no Dwarves who originate in Harad. Two of the Dwarf fathers were in the Blue Mountains, Durin in Gundabad, and the other 4 were in the Orocarni out east. With two being placed near each other in the northern part, and another two in the southern part.

It's possible the Abnuzhu, and Temamir, are the ones in the southern part. A mix between Rhun and Khand. The term Variags stems from the Norse Varingar, meaning mercenary people. Variags were Norse mercenaries in service of the Byzantine Emperor. So Khand may be Byzantine-ish. Could explain the Temamir's style. The Zhelruka being Russian, and the Kambrada being slavic, would fit with them coming from more "up north" in comparison to the Abnuzhu and Temamir.

[k40rne]

Show me some of those 4k screenshots

here are a bunch of good ones, since I just went through them. Not sure how they will show up on your monitor, but these all look good on this. Keep in mind Lotro is not built as anything resembling a 4k game.

https://ibb.co/Y21yFfP Penthaelion: The Roman style Captain mounted on his war steed.

https://ibb.co/ZmBxjJF Penthaelion: looking over Elderslade with companion

https://ibb.co/rxW8sz4 Aldgelwulf: looking out over stormy sky while mounted

https://ibb.co/s3ZySS8 Aelthred: posing on Vales of Anduin bridge

https://ibb.co/HnjtJXN Earendiel: and companion in Eregion ruins

https://ibb.co/nDzZBpW Eodringhas & companion in Evendim

https://ibb.co/SyWPkHM Aelthred: on ruins with Wildwood vista

https://ibb.co/BwKtHFp Cerubrimbor: in Minas Morgul outpost

https://ibb.co/Bc12bQr Cerubrimbor: in Trestlebridge

https://ibb.co/MRXmKdQ Dweobalgrim in Dunland

https://ibb.co/HDkLzWG Numinuilas in Bree on Skeleton Steed

https://ibb.co/jf3SVkz Dweobalgrim: On war steed in Thorins Hall

https://ibb.co/4pm2gz9 Cerubrimbor: Just outside the Last Homely House

https://ibb.co/6g1NW61 Inahdraen: In Bree town square

https://ibb.co/0CYVr9w Earendiel: Southern Rivendell Uber view

https://ibb.co/LzKrJRd Smyldrin: Warhorse uber angle

https://ibb.co/71P8bVm Earendiel: Lake Evendim stunning picture

https://ibb.co/rvQPFgV Smyldrin: Car Bronach back view

https://ibb.co/3f7LY0S Cerubrimbor: up Car Bronach pass

https://ibb.co/CMLJdFL Smildryn: with companion in Elderslade with flying drake

https://ibb.co/ZNxhvhB Smildryn in Ererd Mithrin

https://ibb.co/fFz4yqN Smildryn: Up close with battle axe

https://ibb.co/Y2hf4Mt companions on goats with Witch Tower view in Car Bronach

https://ibb.co/Ytf74Mk Aldgelwulf: with view of Caranost

https://ibb.co/RbZZ92L companions in Ost Celebrant

[k40rne]

Well, according to LOTR lore, there are no Dwarves who originate in Harad. Two of the Dwarf fathers were in the Blue Mountains, Durin in Gundabad, and the other 4 were in the Orocarni out east. With two being placed near each other in the northern part, and another two in the southern part.

It's possible the Abnuzhu, and Temamir, are the ones in the southern part. A mix between Rhun and Khand. The term Variags stems from the Norse Varingar, meaning mercenary people. Variags were Norse mercenaries in service of the Byzantine Emperor. So Khand may be Byzantine-ish. Could explain the Temamir's style. The Zhelruka being Russian, and the Kambrada being slavic, would fit with them coming from more "up north" in comparison to the Abnuzhu and Temamir.

Not originate; most of them have migrated a long way, but they could have easily ended up there in the Southern Grey Mountains in deep Harad over time. But yes, I get that the origins are Ered Cernin, Ered Luin & the Misty Mountains

[TesalionLortus]

here are a bunch of good ones, since I just went through them.

image don't seem to be showing, I have tried it over and over, with various hosting sites, so will have to do links

Oh, thanks! That's a big list, nice screenshots and a lot of different outfits

Not sure how they will show up on your monitor, but these all look good on this. Keep in mind Lotro is not built as anything resembling a 4k game.

They seem to be 1920x1080 though, some smaller. Not sure if they're supposed to be like this but edges seem very jaggy. With 4x Supersamling/transparency supersampling mine are far more softened, for example. But since you said it's actually your monitor doing the thing as opposed to hardware.. is that the bane of this method, that one can't actually take a screenshot of how it appears on a monitor and any screenshot taken is without the monitor's tweaks? Well, never used this monitor build-in tech, so is just confusing to me

[TesalionLortus]

Scenario, I just realized something about Gondor. From Havens of Belfalas, through Belfalas, the calming view of Tolfalas, into Dor-en-ernil and beyond... where we have these round, soft, gentle coastlines and softer cliffsides. This is also part of the reason why the Belfalas housing feels so peaceful.

So, currently we have something like this:







Graceful terrain, not too much of some harsh rocky formations or external big rocks sticking out.




So please, DO NOT turn what we have into this:





(with Swanfleet rocks and others attached everywhere)

Please, no. I'm all for some brand new coastline styles with harsh cliffsides of all varieties and different elevation approaches, with rocks of all types sticking out or clear-cut rough cliffsides. So yes, Swanfleet rocks can be useful for that. And there is plenty of room for such south of the Mouth of Anduin, or into Outer Gondor, or in Eriador, from British-styled coasts to messy oriental cliffs. But remember of some more gentle coast types/cliffs like in the Baltics, for example + definitely let's leave what was soft and peaceful the way it was... hopefully There is room for both and Belfalas/Central Gondor, to me, are VERY STRONGLY associated with this gracefulness of shape and form for their coastline.

[k40rne]

Oh, thanks! That's a big list, nice screenshots and a lot of different outfits

yeah, I have lots of characters maybe 18, at least 12 mains all with max outfits each for characters and war steeds. Thanks, yeah it's fun to take good screenshots.

Not sure if they're supposed to be like this but edges seem very jaggy. With 4x Supersamling/transparency supersampling mine are far more softened, for example. But since you said it's actually your monitor doing the thing as opposed to hardware.. is that the bane of this method, that one can't actually take a screenshot of how it appears on a monitor and any screenshot taken is without the monitor's tweaks? Well, never used this monitor build-in tech, so is just confusing to me

Yeah, I think the ss won't capture it from the TV upscaling, but it will show upscaling on the jpg on my screen. I still don't think SSG are creating a game to utilise 4k fully.

Also it is about the capability of the TV, which is why old plasmas can look better than many 4k lcds. These formats aren't as exact as you'd think. There are so many different ones too: UHD, HDR, HDR+ & a few others I can't recall, ultimately it depends how big the screen is vs distance toyour eyeballs. I think the Q9N5 is a decent jump in picture depth from mine, so this stuff isn't static either.

here's a good video on 4k LOTRO, but you can still see some blurriness at times.

[TesalionLortus]

That's a nice compilation, yeah I know of it. My game would appear more like on this video, softened and removed jaggies with AA, only even better (which I think may apply to the creator's game as well and it's YouTube that introduces some of the blurriness - it does do that a lot, since YT actually awfully compresses its videos)

[Phantion]

The good news is the blue water has returned to Belfalas on Bullroarer, for which I'm grateful! There's just a texturing issue between different water pigmentations where the Sirith flows into Pelargir; I'm sure they'll fix it eventually The sea looks like the sea again!

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

The good news is the blue water has returned to Belfalas on Bullroarer, for which I'm grateful!

Well, it was all due to work on that pesky "3d printed" water shadows that I'm not a big fan of, especially when it's a huge tree that's reflected. I was pretty much devoted over the years in the mindset of "these devs can never do wrong" with barely a few things on my mind like some of the winged stuff that "maybe they'll take the opportunity to slightly adjust one day" as I thought back then, but recently some things just... happen. And seem so surprising and like 'wut?' including on visual/worldbuilding front. So my confidence is shaken and no wonder I'm going to worry about any strange occurrences from Bul! LOL

PS: Poor Scenario who gotta watch us in "visual panic" mode

[Feral_Yoda]

As for Umbar, assuming the plan is indeed redoing the entire Gondor on After and there is no way in the world they would move everything North to give Harad/Umbar some breathing room on that map, then I guess this is the best (and most likely) option for how to handle map situation:






- One massive border/invisible wall/teleport border on sea.

- Harnen as border, with one or few teleport points where appropriate.

- Housing area with open-space invisible borders, like Breeland Homesteads now. (But upon entry actually ports you to housing in old Gondor space, and yeah, hopefully with new terrain changes brought over : )

- On brand new open world map, as in "region 6" "the South", Umbar space initially in its own bubble, but well-placed so enough space North for all the ground that needs to be covered to Harnen. And with some foresight... put in the top left corner of the heightmap file (though with some wiggle room for expanding sea borders to the West, just in case for whatever reason, for boat action, cursed Othbreaker vessels, or maybe if they ever have ideas for some island expansion in these Southern lands?)

- Proportion-wise, as I very roughly demonstrated, Umbar bay may be expanded quite a bit for cool worldbuilding and immersion purposes (come on, those Corsairs war fleets, present day or flashbacks, gotta have some space on the waters! The way it was done in Gondor was incredibly cluttered, fine back then, but a bit too cluttered if you wanna have player boats or scenic Corsair landscapes). Since it would be on another map, after a teleport, wouldn't really be too jarring, if the bay was overblown compared to what we had in Gondor for such places and coastal areas. Not much different from overblown Mt Doom or Evendim.


Now, if Umbar is like in addition to Gondor landscape (??) as part of one expansion (?), which is still a bit weird and unclear to me whether that's what Scenario meant, I guess the size of landscape on my roughly done picture above seems too insane and impossible - but, but... if they're smart with these boats and if they're actually making traversable/quest-able water a reality, then the realistic - and still sizeable, impressive, scenic, COOL scenario - may be to do just the BAY ALONE, as in expansive water in the bay, with bits of shores here and there and the city/smaller surroundings. Now, THAT I can understand. The Northern mountains of the bay might create such a neat barrier and we don't even need that entire northern bit of land initially. But then they can easily grow the world around Umbar from there and fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle, oh and also take that land (and sea) route back to Gondor. Though maybe we could also take a "quick ship" back to Pelargil and get back to Nurn from there at some point too or someplace else, so it's not like 2-4 years dedication of growing the South alone.

Ugh... I really really REALLY hate the idea of everyone getting their own "horse-boat" and having ocean/river travel that way. It just seems so wrong. And I know i'm probably the only one that feels this way, but i really hope LOTRO doesn't go that way. And we stick to land and swimming when travelling of our own accord. I'm totally ok with uncontrolled (ie like stablemaster travel) via boat or even ship travel via teleport or instance if we must go over the sea to Umbar, but please no to personal boats. I can't see it being interesting or fun at all... and at absolute best as warhorse 2.0 deal.

That said... I think i good way to transition (if we must, and it sounds like we must) from a "After-the-King/Mordor" landmass to a new Southlands landmass, then perhaps via portal perhaps at Peligir into "South Guard" via a southern gate on the far side of the river. And maybe at the "Harad Road" blockade from the original "Dark Gondor". Yes that would leave South Ithilien as not "daylight" updated but it also prevents the weirdness of the crossroads getting any weirder. Basically everything South of the Anduin and the Ithilien cliff the new landmass.

Scenario, I just realized something about Gondor. From Havens of Belfalas, through Belfalas, the calming view of Tolfalas into Dor-en-ernil and beyond... where we have these round, soft, gentle coastlines and softer cliffsides. This is also part of the reason why the Belfalas housing feels so peaceful.

Graceful terrain, not too much of some harsh rocky formations or external big rocks sticking out.

So please, DO NOT turn what we have into this:

(with Swanfleet rocks and others attached everywhere)

Please, no. I'm all for some brand new coastline styles with harsh cliffsides of all varieties and different elevation approaches, with rocks of all types sticking out or clear-cut rough cliffsides. So yes, Swanfleet rocks can be useful for that. And there is plenty of room for such south of the Mouth of Anduin, or into Outer Gondor, or in Eriador, from British-styled coasts to messy oriental cliffs. But remember of some more gentle coast types/cliffs like in the Baltics, for example + definitely let's leave what was soft and peaceful the way it was... hopefully There is room for both and Belfalas/Central Gondor, to me, are VERY STRONGLY associated with this gracefulness of shape and form for their coastline.

Why can't we have bits of both? There's nothing wrong with some rocky cliffs, some steep rounded hills, and some nice sandy beaches all along the coast. I know out here in California we cycle between all of those (and usually within just a few miles of each other).

[Arnand_the_Fox]

Ugh... I really really REALLY hate the idea of everyone getting their own "horse-boat" and having ocean/river travel that way. It just seems so wrong. And I know i'm probably the only one that feels this way, but i really hope LOTRO doesn't go that way. And we stick to land and swimming when travelling of our own accord. I'm totally ok with uncontrolled (ie like stablemaster travel) via boat or even ship travel via teleport or instance if we must go over the sea to Umbar, but please no to personal boats. I can't see it being interesting or fun at all... and at absolute best as warhorse 2.0 deal.

I'd agree with you. There's no real need for everyone to get horse-boats, and including them out really exists to try to justify making Umbar bay massively bigger so you have to use the boat to get around it.

[TesalionLortus]

Ugh... I really really REALLY hate the idea of everyone getting their own "horse-boat" and having ocean/river travel that way. It just seems so wrong.

I'd agree with you. There's no real need for everyone to get horse-boats, and including them out really exists to try to justify making Umbar bay massively bigger so you have to use the boat to get around it.

Sorry to point this out guys, but seriously, it's a very successful thing in games and great relaxation/immersion to have. Even if there is literally nothing attached to it (combat, cosmetics, etc) it would have been a wonder to have that option (but of course cosmetics are the very obvious way of making it even more fun and tied to shop too). Plus, manual swim is annoying/too long/not good for views with your camera just there awkwardly in the water with some model clipping in movement. (Whereas a "teleport swim" is just shallow and lame, takes immersion of bodies of water out of the picture altogether, just a mere convenience but not exactly fun nor freedom of travel).

Plus, it's not a needless action, it's modern world design. Even without these boats... the size of Lake Evendim, mouths of Anduin or Long Lake for this entire bay that's supposed to house war fleets and some Corsair trade routes... or same in cases of seas, say in Rhun... with the other shore just right there, like it's merely wider river or lake... well, it's just bad joke, plain and simple, and won't make me feel immersed at all for something like Umbar. This game has never been good at it and I've seen people complain about rivers too, that they aren't too impressive, too small, not too wide. Still, that was then, this is now, plus rivers were not as important for narrative or anything, to make me engaged with the story on a worldbuilding front. And the Gondor content - with Corsairs fleets and some water prompt action - managed to luck out due to being set on actual open sea, but with a visual geographical "breaker" at the Cape of Belafalas, so a sense of smallness kinda blends together and dissipates if there is an entire coastline/sea in sight yet the two stops of the sea's journey were separated by this giant, geographical breaker line in your vision. That's not true for bays or inland seas though, far from it.

And then there are of course all the opportunities associated with boats (objectives on waters, put some NPCs on boats, access to places only from waters, coastline features and worldbuilding) and the sheer sense of experiencing something new. I like new things. Variety is good. New ways to design quests are good. The game needs actually fun new things and fresh things. It would have been a giant 'so why did you waste Umbar again?' if they said no to all that, had Umbar terribly over-compressed and did the entire Umbar-Gondor coastline and once again said no to all that.

Why can't we have bits of both? There's nothing wrong with some rocky cliffs, some steep rounded hills, and some nice sandy beaches all along the coast. I know out here in California we cycle between all of those (and usually within just a few miles of each other).

But I did say we can have both. There are plenty of coasts to have all these different things. California is California. Consider there are places and corners in the world (or perhaps even someplaces in California : ) where the geography of shores and these cliffs are more graceful, softer and not as rocky/steep with these harsh sticking out rocks and more blocky proportions. Belfalas/Central Gondor currently feel that way - soft, gentle - and that's the feel that captivates me every time when I enter the Housing neighborhood or any of those regions and their coasts. It's more calming and harmonious (unlike sharper more "aggressively" rocky approaches). So why change that feeling? Other than maybe do what you say, a little bit of both, in Anfalas/early bits of Central Gondor or both, to then slowly bring it in line with some different new approaches in Outer Gondor/South

[Phantion]

I'd agree with you. There's no real need for everyone to get horse-boats, and including them out really exists to try to justify making Umbar bay massively bigger so you have to use the boat to get around it.

It's an awesome feature in a game like Guild Wars 2. The Fellowship used boats; boats are a thing in Middle-earth. If you roleplay a Gondorian fisherman, it would be nice to fish from a boat.

It's not about "need" in this case- not about gear or raids or instances. It's just an immersive feature. You know, like the fishing hobby! We never really "needed" the fishing hobby, but it's there for those who enjoy it. Clearly others don't; not for them. But I'd never say "fishing shouldn't exist because I think it's useless." Let others do what they want.

I hope they'll figure it out

Why can't we have bits of both? There's nothing wrong with some rocky cliffs, some steep rounded hills, and some nice sandy beaches all along the coast. I know out here in California we cycle between all of those (and usually within just a few miles of each other).

Agreed. The Belfalas homesteads . . . it's still got that older rock style that looks like lumpy ice cream save for a few rock formations.

But I did say we can have both. There are plenty of coasts to have all these different things. California is California. Consider there are places and corners in the world (or perhaps even someplaces in California : ) where the geography of shores and these cliffs are more graceful, softer and not as rocky/steep with these harsh sticking out rocks and more blocky proportions. Belfalas/Central Gondor currently feel that way - soft, gentle - and that's the feel that captivates me every time when I enter the Housing neighborhood or any of those regions and their coasts. It's more calming and harmonious (unlike sharper more "aggressively" rocky approaches). So why change that feeling? Other than maybe do what you say, a little bit of both, in Anfalas/early bits of Central Gondor or both, to then slowly bring it in line with some different new approaches in Outer Gondor/South

I take your meaning - to a point. There are some areas in the homestead that could use some sprucing-up when it comes to rocks - like the cliffs 2 Silver Street + 1 Swan Lane are situated on by that bridge where the cliffs look more painted, less realistic style - at least to me. There are a few artful spots that could use some of those rock formations. I also think along Tolfalas in particular - heading out to Central Gondor. Where I agree with you is they shouldn't touch the beaches or the closer-to-sea-level parts of the homesteads. These kinds of cliffs could be a useful "homestead border" in the forests to allow further landscape development north of the homestead in the Emyn Ernil though.

In short: I guess I'm saying there's ways to keep the gentle slopes in most areas of the Cape while giving the updates to the right spots where the newer formations would make more sense. I'd also like an inlet under that bridge that's by 2 Silver Street. It never made sense to me that there isn't water under it.

Cheers!

[Arnand_the_Fox]

It's an awesome feature in a game like Guild Wars 2. The Fellowship used boats; boats are a thing in Middle-earth. If you roleplay a Gondorian fisherman, it would be nice to fish from a boat.

It's not about "need" in this case- not about gear or raids or instances. It's just an immersive feature. You know, like the fishing hobby! We never really "needed" the fishing hobby, but it's there for those who enjoy it. Clearly others don't; not for them. But I'd never say "fishing shouldn't exist because I think it's useless." Let others do what they want.

I hope they'll figure it out

Its funny you mention Guild Wars 2 because Guild Wars 2 players have largely decided that the skiffs are useless, and not a very good feature.

LOTRO is an MMO, not a life simulator like The Sims. There's plenty of things that people can do in universe that we can't do in-game because that isn't the focus of an MMO. You also can't roleplay as a Gondorian fisherman.roleplay explicitly requires the game to react to your actions. At no point will NPCs in the game consider you a fisherman by trade, you can't open up your own stall to sell fish, etc.

And there's a huge difference between fishing, and boats. Adding in player usable boats requires a lot of through and development into thinking how it will interact with past content like all the past rivers and lakes etc. that something like fishing doesn't. Its a different situation entirely.

[Phantion]

Its funny you mention Guild Wars 2 because Guild Wars 2 players have largely decided that the skiffs are useless, and not a very good feature.

Do you have a statistic for that? I seem to recall logging on GW2 a few weeks ago to find whole swarms of players riding their skiffs out to fight a world-boss in the ocean; it was quite the fleet!

LOTRO is an MMO, not a life simulator like The Sims. There's plenty of things that people can do in universe that we can't do in-game because that isn't the focus of an MMO. You also can't roleplay as a Gondorian fisherman.roleplay explicitly requires the game to react to your actions. At no point will NPCs in the game consider you a fisherman by trade, you can't open up your own stall to sell fish, etc.

Well, folks who play festivals, who are really into housing, hanging out in Bree listening to concerts, etc. (*Landroval's where it's at, apparently), would probably greatly disagree with you there. There are plenty of folks of different strides who play LOTRO; it's not all about the endgame and the raiding (*which frankly, after beating the boss once, gets pretty boring - at least to me).

And as an avid roleplayer, I can tell you I don't need "the game to react to my actions." Other roleplayers do. The NPC's give me "prompts" I can use or discard as I please. Not that I roleplay any fisherman; that was just a hypothetical. Oh- and you could make fish decorations and sell them on the AH- so there's that.

And there's a huge difference between fishing, and boats. Adding in player usable boats requires a lot of through and development into thinking how it will interact with past content like all the past rivers and lakes etc. that something like fishing doesn't. Its a different situation entirely.

Still worth checking out. The only thorny parts I can think of are those involving certain death-walls (*Lothlorien - S. Mirkwood) but, other than that, it should be smooth sailing. It would be great to actually boat across Forochel rather than riding the whole way around it. "Everswim" will become more pleasant to explore. Obviously, it makes sense to have a kill-wall in a place like Sarn Gebir where Tolkien's narrative stipulates it's time to "get out of the boat and carry it" to the next safe spot, as with Rauros. Boats will make it easier to head from Buckland down to Sarn Ford in Cardolan. Entwash will be another river fun to navigate waterfall to waterfall. Same with the coast of Belfalas.

I'd honestly have a blast boating down the Anduin and navigating around the tougher spots. That's another thing some players are really into: exploring, hence this whole thread about "filling the gaps."

If the focus of a Tolkien MMO was literally just, "level to cap, work hard with teams to earn the BIS gear, then rinse and repeat the next update," the game would've died a long time ago IMHO. I'm in it for the landscape and the story. I like raiding for the story, doing instances for the story, for the experience. But endlessly trying to get the BIS gear that'll get replaced in the next level cap? I'd rather join Sisyphus behind his boulder and can't think of anything more silly - and I'll do as I please with my time tyvm

The LOTRO devs were smart to make it not just an MMO - but an immersive landscape / story experience, along with the other perks and options. They did a lot of remarkable things with Tolkien's world. SWTOR does a great job at immersion too- giving you your own ship, strongholds, various events, wandering into various cantinas on exotic worlds, etc. I also play that. I need my games to be games, not extra jobs where I'm paying to work hehehe

Cheers!

[TesalionLortus]

Yeah, this game is really very unique with its player base, should take everything into account to make gameplay/being in the world fun, not just some mmo chore. There are still so many ways to do that and allow for more choices of how you want to play and where to go to busy yourself with, some of which rather simple too. As for boats, the main problem is just figuring them out to begin with. I don't think there are any meaningful technical differences between different waters in the game. Though they might need to make at least some slight distinction between how the surface/foam interacts for seas. And none of this means sims either. Travelling bodies of water is there in every "explorable landmass" type of game nowadays.

[Feral_Yoda]

Sorry to point this out guys, but seriously, it's a very successful thing in games and great relaxation/immersion to have. Even if there is literally nothing attached to it (combat, cosmetics, etc) it would have been a wonder to have that option (but of course cosmetics are the very obvious way of making it even more fun and tied to shop too). Plus, manual swim is annoying/too long/not good for views with your camera just there awkwardly in the water with some model clipping in movement. (Whereas a "teleport swim" is just shallow and lame, takes immersion of bodies of water out of the picture altogether, just a mere convenience but not exactly fun nor freedom of travel).

Plus, it's not a needless action, it's modern world design. Even without these boats... the size of Lake Evendim, mouths of Anduin or Long Lake for this entire bay that's supposed to house war fleets and some Corsair trade routes... or same in cases of seas, say in Rhun... with the other shore just right there, like it's merely wider river or lake... well, it's just bad joke, plain and simple, and won't make me feel immersed at all for something like Umbar. This game has never been good at it and I've seen people complain about rivers too, that they aren't too impressive, too small, not too wide. Still, that was then, this is now, plus rivers were not as important for narrative or anything, to make me engaged with the story on a worldbuilding front. And the Gondor content - with Corsairs fleets and some water prompt action - managed to luck out due to being set on actual open sea, but with a visual geographical "breaker" at the Cape of Belafalas, so a sense of smallness kinda blends together and dissipates if there is an entire coastline/sea in sight yet the two stops of the sea's journey were separated by this giant, geographical breaker line in your vision. That's not true for bays or inland seas though, far from it.

And then there are of course all the opportunities associated with boats (objectives on waters, put some NPCs on boats, access to places only from waters, coastline features and worldbuilding) and the sheer sense of experiencing something new. I like new things. Variety is good. New ways to design quests are good. The game needs actually fun new things and fresh things. It would have been a giant 'so why did you waste Umbar again?' if they said no to all that, had Umbar terribly over-compressed and did the entire Umbar-Gondor coastline and once again said no to all that.

Just because its successful in another game, doesn't mean that LOTRO needs it, or that it would even work/be worth the effort needed to make it, even if its just a reskinning of a horse to a tiny kayak/canoe. I don't really see it as immersive myself... especially if we just summon a boat out of nowhere (a horse can always just be following on its own). As far as bays and rivers and lakes being distant and having to go around and not just boat across instantly, that is just how it works for people. I have to travel down a river to a crossing point, or around a bay even.

I'm all for NPC boats and instance boats, ones the player has no control over for questing and what not (That would be like me taking the ferry across the bay to San Francisco), but otherwise i'd rather they stick to the coasts. Or fast travel boats like on Evendim and the Brandywine.

And as far as content out on the water... other than random fishing quests i don't see it being worth it either. Combat from such a tiny boat won't be worth it, or fun, just like Horse Combat wasn't (My guard spent way more time fighting on his own feet in Rohan than on the Warhorse).

[TesalionLortus]

Just because its successful in another game, doesn't mean that LOTRO needs it, or that it would even work/be worth the effort needed to make it, even if its just a reskinning of a horse to a tiny kayak/canoe.

Well, I think there are many people that would disagree.

And as far as content out on the water... other than random fishing quests i don't see it being worth it either. Combat from such a tiny boat won't be worth it, or fun, just like Horse Combat wasn't (My guard spent way more time fighting on his own feet in Rohan than on the Warhorse).

There are actually people who like mounted combat and have fun doing something different though. Your statement is highly subjective - to me, mounted combat was fun. Anyway, didn't mean combat. Just as you can run on land to do NPCs chores, gather herbs, meet with NPCs and search for clues or patrol points, same can be done on waters and in hidden coves if there are boats (and sounds to me like something that would fit the Corsair land). Or, imagine a hunt for a treasure according to some map and clues, that lead you toward some island or forgotten, hidden shore. It's more immersive and engaging when you actually control your search and movement, not... take that boat on that shore that teleports you to who-knows-where and you miss all the potential sights along the way from point A to B. And doing it the Everswim way who's got the patience anymore in a zone/zones where main landscape feature is its charming bay, it's 2023 in gaming