Opening up epic Middle Earth fights to non-raiders

[ScionofAngmar]

I recently started playing LOTRO again after a long break and was quickly reminded of why I enjoyed playing this game so many years ago. It's immersive, packed with lore nuggets, and tells a great story. One thing that always bugged me, though (then and now) was that some of the coolest elements of the game are locked behind a raid. Want to see a fight a balrog? You have to raid. Want to go toe-to-toe with Saruman? You have to raid. Want to battle with Shelob? You have to raid. Fight the Lt of Dol Goldur, the Watcher, an undead dragon and many other epic fights and environments all require raid parties to encounter.

I used to raid back in the day, and while it was fun, it is also a lot of work to put together 12 competent players who have the time and interest to run these long instances. I know you can join a kin, but kins often take raiding very seroiusly because of the rewards they offer. I'm not partiuclarly interested in the loot or rewards from the raids, though. I just want an opportunity to experience these fights, to see a Balrog, to hear first-hand the voice of Saruman, to feel the sting of Shelob's venom.

My suggestion, then, is to open up these raid instances to the non-raiding players. I'm not sure if you could do this without too much additional work or even if it's technically possible at all, but you could add a tier below T1 (T0?) that removes most of the loot (maybe only marks would be the reward ) and the most difficult mechanics. It would perhaps allow you to run with NPCs to fill out your group. Or scale the raids like you did with some of the instances so they can be run with smaller groups.

Overall, I still love LOTRO, but I want to see more of the epic environments and fights you've designed.

[Vilan]

It's a good idea, but MOL has said it is not going to happen.

https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...lo-Duo-Version

[ScionofAngmar]

It's a good idea, but MOL has said it is not going to happen.

https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...lo-Duo-Version

I hadn't seen this, thanks.

It's nice to know others have expressed similar desires, but not so nice to hear that those desires will likely go unfulfilled.

[Sovereign50]

I don't think a Level 20 Shelob would feel much like Shelob at all.

MoL

I don't think the brawler feels much like LOTR at all...yet we still went there. Don't give up hope, OP.

[Seglord]

Riding magical, trained reindeer mounts seem more like the North Pole then Lotr, so Yah there's hope.

[OldMadeOfLions]

It's nice to know others have expressed similar desires, but not so nice to hear that those desires will likely go unfulfilled.

As folk have pointed out: nothing is impossible, and I do know that T1 of the recent raids is intended to be more achievable than the traditional concept of a raid. It does still require wrangling twelve people, of course, which isn't something everyone is going to want to do. I guess my question is: do you want to see Shelob, or do you want to see The Raid Against Shelob In LOTRO? Because we often let you get up close and personal with major level threats (including Shelob!), so you still get to see and interact with them. If you want to see The Raid Against Shelob but you don't want to do it with real people, then that means essentially making a new and basically solo version with all the mechanics that require more than one person stripped out, all the sources of damage reduced, all the difficulty removed -- and after that it's not really the same experience. Do you want a solo instance that takes place in the same location and covers the same story beats, even if it's not the Actual Raid?

I guess what I'm asking is if a Storied Tale that gives you a replacement for the raid experience is the type of thing you want, or if that wouldn't scratch the same itch: because at its heart that wouldn't feel very much like the original raid, even if it covers the same beats.

MoL

[wispsong]

As folk have pointed out: nothing is impossible, and I do know that T1 of the recent raids is intended to be more achievable than the traditional concept of a raid. It does still require wrangling twelve people, of course, which isn't something everyone is going to want to do. I guess my question is: do you want to see Shelob, or do you want to see The Raid Against Shelob In LOTRO? Because we often let you get up close and personal with major level threats (including Shelob!), so you still get to see and interact with them. If you want to see The Raid Against Shelob but you don't want to do it with real people, then that means essentially making a new and basically solo version with all the mechanics that require more than one person stripped out, all the sources of damage reduced, all the difficulty removed -- and after that it's not really the same experience. Do you want a solo instance that takes place in the same location and covers the same story beats, even if it's not the Actual Raid?

I guess what I'm asking is if a Storied Tale that gives you a replacement for the raid experience is the type of thing you want, or if that wouldn't scratch the same itch: because at its heart that wouldn't feel very much like the original raid, even if it covers the same beats.

MoL

I really enjoyed the storied tales for HD and hope we get them for other BB as well. Storied Tales replacing the need for the raid would be good as well, I think. But the raid is not a must like the BB or Tomb of Elendil where you can't continue the story without.

[istvana]

MoL - definitely yes.

LOTRO is a game of stories and world building not of endgame raids and challenges. Well, not for most of us.

I don't begrudge those that want them having raids but it would be good allowing the rest of us to see the high points of the stories.

Not necessarily in a one person raid format. Even if our characters get to tag along and don't have any serious fighting to do. As in the Skarhald area raid substitute where the NPC dwarves did the work.

[OldMadeOfLions]

LOTRO is a game of stories and world building not of endgame raids and challenges.

It is both of those things, just not for every individual person.

MoL

[Arnenna]

As folk have pointed out: nothing is impossible, and I do know that T1 of the recent raids is intended to be more achievable than the traditional concept of a raid. It does still require wrangling twelve people, of course, which isn't something everyone is going to want to do. I guess my question is: do you want to see Shelob, or do you want to see The Raid Against Shelob In LOTRO? Because we often let you get up close and personal with major level threats (including Shelob!), so you still get to see and interact with them. If you want to see The Raid Against Shelob but you don't want to do it with real people, then that means essentially making a new and basically solo version with all the mechanics that require more than one person stripped out, all the sources of damage reduced, all the difficulty removed -- and after that it's not really the same experience. Do you want a solo instance that takes place in the same location and covers the same story beats, even if it's not the Actual Raid?

I guess what I'm asking is if a Storied Tale that gives you a replacement for the raid experience is the type of thing you want, or if that wouldn't scratch the same itch: because at its heart that wouldn't feel very much like the original raid, even if it covers the same beats.

MoL

It was a great attempt, but unfortunately it was a complete failure at getting non raider players to see Shelob. Remmorchant is a really nice raid and the story inside is great with a satisfying climax. Most non raider players will be able to get past boss 1 with some determination. Less will get past boss 2. Not many at all will get past boss 3. That is where the storymode well and truly fell over. There are older more traditional style raids in the game that were easier to get through on t2c than storymode boss 3 in Remmorchant. The annoying part of it is that the t1 Shelob fight is probably the easiest in the whole t1 raid - if non raiding players can get to her, which they mostly can't.

As far as I know there is no "raid against Shelob" in the actual story, but getting to see her up close (without having to flee for your life while an elf holds her off with a vial of light so you don't get time to look at her) and actually have some combat with her, is far more valuable to story fans. Even though the Shelob raid is not actual story, she is such an iconic part of the story, people feel drawn to the possibility of interacting with her.

A more painful slap to the non raider players was the storyline based around the demise of Denethor IMO, and it actually spawned a thread on the forum which I'm sure you remember. Imagine being a story fan, working through all that Epic (which truly was Epic by the way), getting to participate in the ride of the Rohirrim, fighting though the battles on the Pelennor fields and then defending the White City in the Epic battles, all the while, interacting with Denethor through certain parts of it, only then be cut off short for one small but important part of the story because it was buried behind a 6 man.

I'd say that the work done since Mordor, opening up instances to solo players is a very good change for non raiding/grouping story fans. They get to see quite a bit more now than they did before, but raid stories, are still very much out of their reach. IMO story should be playable by all. You have talented enough writers, yourself included to spin generous and wonderful yarns for inside raids.

[WeirdJedi]

I once told a fellow a long time ago how awesome it was that we were now able to solo the instances. He thought it was the worst change imaginable. I was shocked and appalled at his blunt response. After a short conversation, it became clear he hated the idea of rewards being given out to people who didn't play with others. When I told him that the solo instances only rewarded tokens and no gear, he seemed at the very least satisfied that his experience of the game wasn't hindered.

I am surprised that the solo versions of the Gundabad instances give gear. House of Rest solo gives out a pretty decent set. Would people enjoy a Story Tales version of the raids? Perhaps. It would be nice for them to participate in the role of side-kick as some major named characters are doing all the heavy-lifting. Not only would this be enjoyable for those who don't like to group-up with others, but it would also be informative in letting us know how to defeat the bosses before we actually fight them "for real" with others.

The quest summary for The Anvil of Winterstith really didn't do anything for me. Remmorchant proved to be too difficult for any of our kinship. What we would like is more content like Bloody Threshold. Allow 12 individuals of minimum skill, class composition, and gear be able to complete the raid on T1. And we have to be rewarded with something other than "the experience" of the raid. Obtaining the mount and weekly quest can be sufficient in this case. Cosmetic tokens, weapons, and decorations are all options too. However, we are not going to get everyone involved unless you throw in something gear-related, like Enhancement Runes.

The nice thing about the raids is being able to do them when the level cap goes up. We are a bunch of patient-folk in that regard.

[OldMadeOfLions]

...but getting to see her up close (without having to flee for your life while an elf holds her off with a vial of light so you don't get time to look at her) and actually have some combat with her, is far more valuable to story fans...

This is where we disagree, then, because I think most story fans would agree that Shelob, as presented in LoTR, should just kill you. Even having a successful Raid against her is a line too far for me, though I do acknowledge that players want to be able to fight her. As for Denethor, as I've said before, even our instance designers are fans of the story and want to be able to include Big T moments in their content. It's a balancing act, as it always is. The surest way to be able to see everything is to open yourself up to many different kinds of content, although over the years we've done our best to expand each channel to more and more players, wherever possible.

MoL

[Arnenna]

This is where we disagree, then, because I think most story fans would agree that Shelob, as presented in LoTR, should just kill you. Even having a successful Raid against her is a line too far for me, though I do acknowledge that players want to be able to fight her. As for Denethor, as I've said before, even our instance designers are fans of the story and want to be able to include Big T moments in their content. It's a balancing act, as it always is. The surest way to be able to see everything is to open yourself up to many different kinds of content, although over the years we've done our best to expand each channel to more and more players, wherever possible.

MoL

That's exactly the point though MoL. If you're going to stretch the story in a raid, then may as well stretch it for the whole playerbase, who would truly be grateful for it. Sure Shelob would kill a single player, but she would likely kill a band of 12 too as you say. She made short work of a band of orcs, an uruk commander and us as players in Cirith Ungol, until again, an elf came to the rescue to cut our binds.

There are players that will never enjoy group content, they are here for one thing, LotR story. There are players that will never enjoy solo content, they are here for one thing, to play with friends and use progression to better their characters, though, they may also like the story. The difference is, the ones that do not enjoy solo content, can run off and do it if there is something in particular that they really want to see. It doesn't work in reverse though unfortunately, so there is no balancing act. The challenge for the raid builders is to bring their stories to a wider audience.

My main sees everything, every corner of landscape in every region in Middle Earth, every quest, every deed, every instance and every raid, so I miss nothing. When I hit one of those big T moments inside an instance or raid, I feel for the LotR fans that may never experience it. I feel for the developers that wrote it knowing that it will not be appreciated by anywhere near as many players as it should be. It just seems like a waste to me. I feel the same when players say they have never run the Epics.

Yes, since Mordor the story inside dungeons has opened up a lot more to everyone, and it was a good attempt with the storymode Remmorchant, but it didn't quite hit the mark. It was meant to cater story up to people that don't raid, but it missed it's aim by quite a big margin. Did they really expect people who don't raid to get past B2, let alone B3? Maybe it would have been better to have Shelob as the undoable fight, as it is in the higher tiers, so at least some players could have got to her chamber? They could have taken a real good look at her and at the very least, see her in action until the inevitable wipe.

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

That's exactly the point though MoL. If you're going to stretch the story in a raid, then may as well stretch it for the whole playerbase, who would truly be grateful for it. Sure Shelob would kill a single player, but she would likely kill a band of 12 too as you say. She made short work of a band of orcs, an uruk commander and us as players in Cirith Ungol, until again, an elf came to the rescue to cut our binds.

There are players that will never enjoy group content, they are here for one thing, LotR story. There are players that will never enjoy solo content, they are here for one thing, to play with friends and use progression to better their characters, though, they may also like the story. The difference is, the ones that do not enjoy solo content, can run off and do it if there is something in particular that they really want to see. It doesn't work in reverse though unfortunately, so there is no balancing act. The challenge for the raid builders is to bring their stories to a wider audience.

My main sees everything, every corner of landscape in every region in Middle Earth, every quest, every deed, every instance and every raid, so I miss nothing. When I hit one of those big T moments inside an instance or raid, I feel for the LotR fans that may never experience it. I feel for the developers that wrote it knowing that it will not be appreciated by anywhere near as many players as it should be. It just seems like a waste to me. I feel the same when players say they have never run the Epics.

Yes, since Mordor the story inside dungeons has opened up a lot more to everyone, and it was a good attempt with the storymode Remmorchant, but it didn't quite hit the mark. It was meant to cater story up to people that don't raid, but it missed it's aim by quite a big margin. Did they really expect people who don't raid to get past B2, let alone B3? Maybe it would have been better to have Shelob as the undoable fight, as it is in the higher tiers, so at least some players could have got to her chamber? They could have taken a real good look at her and at the very least, see her in action until the inevitable wipe.

Really well put - I agree with what you’ve said here. The game has so many different types of players, but it also worth noting that player ‘types’ change over time. I used to be on every night, do T2 HM raids (as it was at the time), be regularly in the Ettenmoors, alongside having loads of alts levelling through the game - but life changes, particularly in a game that has lasted for so long.

With raids, it isn’t the difficulty that is the problem, but more the lack of flexibility. If I’ve got an hour or so free to play, but I can’t guarantee when that might be, I could run through a solo version of a raid (assuming that there were NPCs fighting too, to make the concept not seem too implausible), but a proper raid (unless I’m really lucky with a well timed, well organised PUG) is never going to happen. This means that I miss out on all the story conclusions that hide in the raids, and Im sure Im not the only one.

I’ve really appreciated the solofication of the 3 mans and 6 mans - I’d really appreciate if the same was done for the raids too (and don’t worry about the mechanics - it is all about access to the story!)

[Tirian-Hammerfist]

As folk have pointed out: nothing is impossible, and I do know that T1 of the recent raids is intended to be more achievable than the traditional concept of a raid. It does still require wrangling twelve people, of course, which isn't something everyone is going to want to do. I guess my question is: do you want to see Shelob, or do you want to see The Raid Against Shelob In LOTRO? Because we often let you get up close and personal with major level threats (including Shelob!), so you still get to see and interact with them. If you want to see The Raid Against Shelob but you don't want to do it with real people, then that means essentially making a new and basically solo version with all the mechanics that require more than one person stripped out, all the sources of damage reduced, all the difficulty removed -- and after that it's not really the same experience. Do you want a solo instance that takes place in the same location and covers the same story beats, even if it's not the Actual Raid?

I guess what I'm asking is if a Storied Tale that gives you a replacement for the raid experience is the type of thing you want, or if that wouldn't scratch the same itch: because at its heart that wouldn't feel very much like the original raid, even if it covers the same beats.

MoL

Missed this reply of yours - for me, this would absolutely be something I would be interested in. As long as we got to experience the same story, I’m not worried about the rest of the experience!

[Harvain]

This is where we disagree, then, because I think most story fans would agree that Shelob, as presented in LoTR, should just kill you. Even having a successful Raid against her is a line too far for me, though I do acknowledge that players want to be able to fight her. As for Denethor, as I've said before, even our instance designers are fans of the story and want to be able to include Big T moments in their content. It's a balancing act, as it always is. The surest way to be able to see everything is to open yourself up to many different kinds of content, although over the years we've done our best to expand each channel to more and more players, wherever possible.

MoL

As a Game that relies so heavily on the Lore & Story, there has to be ways that such can be told without requiring a Group in any form?

Yes, it would require more Development Work to allow such but that should be worth it based on how the LOTRO uses it's Lore & Story for everything.



We don't "technically" have to directly fight all the "Big Names" in a Solo Version of X Content to be able to tell the Story that whatever Content has been building towards.

For example, Shelob has been thrown around and her "LOTRO Story" is she is alive and will "spend the rest of her days blinded and broken beneath these mountains" said Mountains being the ones which make up the Mountains of Mordor. Granted it took X to do such and basically remove one of the Greatest Lingering Threats in Middle-Earth but such could be told from a Solo Story Perspective when it involves such an important named Character.

One possible way to tell this Story would be a "Flashback Story". The Player still doesn't get to combat Shelob but is shown "scenes" of the fight with X amount of Heroes fighting against her, showing various moments such as Shelob summoning her children, a moment where it seems like the Heroes are losing ground, the Heroes then counter attacking and putting her on the defensive, eventually dealing her a crippling enough blow that she begins to flee before the final moments where she is "blinded & broken".

Then it's pretty much a: "The Player now knows the Story for how X Big Name(s) had their Story told further or has been resolved. If you would want to know more and experience every moment for how the Heroes defeated Shelob, you'll have to play the Remmorchant - the Net of Darkness Raid that is apart of the Minas Morgul Expansion!"

[SavinDwarf]

This is where we disagree, then, because I think most story fans would agree that Shelob, as presented in LoTR, should just kill you. Even having a successful Raid against her is a line too far for me, though I do acknowledge that players want to be able to fight her. As for Denethor, as I've said before, even our instance designers are fans of the story and want to be able to include Big T moments in their content. It's a balancing act, as it always is. The surest way to be able to see everything is to open yourself up to many different kinds of content, although over the years we've done our best to expand each channel to more and more players, wherever possible.

MoL

Perhaps there should be a special consideration made for solo Hobbits. IMHO there is a chance that Shelob seeing a single Hobbit attacking her could roll over and die of laughter

[scifispirit]

Really well put - I agree with what you’ve said here. The game has so many different types of players, but it also worth noting that player ‘types’ change over time. I used to be on every night, do T2 HM raids (as it was at the time), be regularly in the Ettenmoors, alongside having loads of alts levelling through the game - but life changes, particularly in a game that has lasted for so long.

With raids, it isn’t the difficulty that is the problem, but more the lack of flexibility. If I’ve got an hour or so free to play, but I can’t guarantee when that might be, I could run through a solo version of a raid (assuming that there were NPCs fighting too, to make the concept not seem too implausible), but a proper raid (unless I’m really lucky with a well timed, well organised PUG) is never going to happen. This means that I miss out on all the story conclusions that hide in the raids, and Im sure Im not the only one.

I’ve really appreciated the solofication of the 3 mans and 6 mans - I’d really appreciate if the same was done for the raids too (and don’t worry about the mechanics - it is all about access to the story!)

If I may jump in here, I just want to speak for some of those players often being mentioned that will never raid or do large group content, because I am one of them. LOL. I completely understand and respect that the best loot and gear should be obtained through these harder game features. But, for the sake of the story, there are certain things I know I'll never get to enjoy. Both my husband and I play, and when we got through the Blood of Azog, we wanted nothing more than to see the Balrog. But, alas, it's a raid. Not to share any woes, but the work required to gather a group of 10 other people besides ourselves and coordinate all that, while knowing the raid itself may take hours, plus we have a toddler....sigh. So, we just moved on to Gundabad....Balrogless. lol

So, I can absolutely empathize with what so many here are saying. I don't begrudge the game for being this way, but I can't deny there is a sense of missing out when you love to play, love the story, but have no means to coordinate total strangers to meet your own schedule. It just takes away from the overall game experience.

I know there have been a few instances I've completed in the past where, upon entering, my morale was boosted to match the level of the fight ahead. Is something like that possible, but for a raid? Is there a way a raid can be turned into a solo (or even a 3 man instance perhaps) where, instead of requiring 12 people, your morale is just boosted an insane amount so you have a "fighting chance", if you pardon the pun? If that were possible then a solo person, or small group of people could still get the opportunity to enjoy the stories and villains of the game and if we still die doing so, so be it. It would still be a fun fight!!! And all that, of course, would be with the understanding that the normal raid-level gear and loot would not be part of the package.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it. If anything that anyone is suggesting is possible, then I'd like to still have hope.

[Vilan]

The issue I have with saying "we won't make solo versions of raids" is that there already many raids that are soloable... because you can set the level way below yours. You can solo Helegrod, Watcher, Filikul, Ost Dunhoth, Orthanc, and the Erebor raids. They still have all their mechanics, you can just ignore them when you're overlevelled, other than the bits that just flat out require multiple people to trigger certain things.

So one day, the level cap will be 200 and people will be able to go back and slaughter Shelob with their pinky finger. What's the problem with letting us do that now by scaling them down or adding a solo inspiration buff?

[OldMadeOfLions]

The issue I have with saying "we won't make solo versions of raids" is that there already many raids that are soloable because you can set the level way below yours. You can solo Helegrod, Watcher, Filikul, Ost Dunhoth, Orthanc, and the Erebor raids....

This is true for the most part (maybe not Ost Dunhoth -- I think that one still requires multiple groups doing things simultaneously), but no one ever talks about wanting to solo those. It's always the raids that came out recently that attract all the attention.

They still have all their mechanics, you can just ignore them when you're overlevelled...

If you ignore all the mechanics, I'd say you're not really doing the raid, but maybe that's just the Game Designer in me talking. I'm glad players who want to can check it off their list, if that's what they want.

So one day, the level cap will be 200 and people will be able to go back and slaughter Shelob with their pinky finger. What's the problem with letting us do that now by scaling them down or adding a solo inspiration buff?

The problem is that both of those things is a ton of work, and having someone do that work means they're not working on something else, or if they are they're piling up a lot of crunch. If it's a feature you want, then of course you'll say it's worth it, but it's really not that simple. I worked nights and weekends on the Storied Tales for Helm's Deep for half a year in addition to my normal workload, for instance, and reaction to those varied from "Why did you bother?" to "I guess it's okay for people who want it." So making alternative versions of things isn't always a home run.

If there's enough interest in making the story bits of raids more accessible, it's possible to make it happen, and if they tell me to do it I'll do it... or find someone else who can.

MoL

[Mystarr]

This is true for the most part (maybe not Ost Dunhoth -- I think that one still requires multiple groups doing things simultaneously), but no one ever talks about wanting to solo those. It's always the raids that came out recently that attract all the attention.

If you ignore all the mechanics, I'd say you're not really doing the raid, but maybe that's just the Game Designer in me talking. I'm glad players who want to can check it off their list, if that's what they want.

The problem is that both of those things is a ton of work, and having someone do that work means they're not working on something else, or if they are they're piling up a lot of crunch. If it's a feature you want, then of course you'll say it's worth it, but it's really not that simple. I worked nights and weekends on the Storied Tales for Helm's Deep for half a year in addition to my normal workload, for instance, and reaction to those varied from "Why did you bother?" to "I guess it's okay for people who want it." So making alternative versions of things isn't always a home run.

If there's enough interest in making the story bits of raids more accessible, it's possible to make it happen, and if they tell me to do it I'll do it... or find someone else who can.

MoL

Made Of Lions: A suggestion for a a possible middle ground that might not be a ton of work to implement. What if you allowed players to set the level for new raid to whatever level they want and of course also scaled the loot down accordingly. You want to go solo the new raid, set it to level 20 and go knock yourself out. Your not going to get the level cap loot , but you can see and experience all of the content. (You already have the technology to make instances scalable so this might not require a ton of work?)

[Note: This wouldn't help players that don't really care about playing the raid, but want to be able to get the loot (that's a solo play reward track issue). However, it would help players that want to experience/see the content without having to wait a few years for it to eventually get rescaled.]

[Arnenna]

If I may jump in here, I just want to speak for some of those players often being mentioned that will never raid or do large group content, because I am one of them. LOL. I completely understand and respect that the best loot and gear should be obtained through these harder game features. But, for the sake of the story, there are certain things I know I'll never get to enjoy. Both my husband and I play, and when we got through the Blood of Azog, we wanted nothing more than to see the Balrog. But, alas, it's a raid. Not to share any woes, but the work required to gather a group of 10 other people besides ourselves and coordinate all that, while knowing the raid itself may take hours, plus we have a toddler....sigh. So, we just moved on to Gundabad....Balrogless. lol

So, I can absolutely empathize with what so many here are saying. I don't begrudge the game for being this way, but I can't deny there is a sense of missing out when you love to play, love the story, but have no means to coordinate total strangers to meet your own schedule. It just takes away from the overall game experience.

I know there have been a few instances I've completed in the past where, upon entering, my morale was boosted to match the level of the fight ahead. Is something like that possible, but for a raid? Is there a way a raid can be turned into a solo (or even a 3 man instance perhaps) where, instead of requiring 12 people, your morale is just boosted an insane amount so you have a "fighting chance", if you pardon the pun? If that were possible then a solo person, or small group of people could still get the opportunity to enjoy the stories and villains of the game and if we still die doing so, so be it. It would still be a fun fight!!! And all that, of course, would be with the understanding that the normal raid-level gear and loot would not be part of the package.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it. If anything that anyone is suggesting is possible, then I'd like to still have hope.

Balrogless. I love it, that's my word of the week

Boosting morale often wouldn't work in raids, because of the player coordination that is needed to carry out different tasks. In boss one in Remmorchant for example, if you get the fire episode, you have someone tanking the spider, a group dealing damage to the spider, then ranged dps taking care of spiderlings that one shot players. That's not something a lone player can take care of. so, there would need to be loss of mechanics to make it available for solo play. A better option would be to make it truly storymode and make it available from a low level like level 50. Then solo players could probably take care of all that while experiencing the story involved.

You don't need to be balrogless. You and your hubby can duo the Rift and fight the mighty Thaurlach with ease at your level.

[Hephburz-2]

For me, I'm not entirely opposed to having solo-players / casuals get into raids to see the story, especially when the landscape and raid stories intertwine, which, despite comments in this thread, they should absolutely do so, the whole point of the landscape story is to build up for the instance content, that's what it more or less ALWAYS has been, quite frankly, in any MMO, they don't just drop bosses out of nowhere for no reason, there is a point to them.

However, that being said, it's almost as if you need to make a tier "below" tier 1, which has basically no mechanics, and virtually no loot (and yes, I am that person who maintains if you want raid-tier loot you need to work for it just like everyone else does); because as was pointed out by Arnenna, most people couldn't even get past boss 3 in Remmorchant to see the Shelob fight in the first place.

[DavidmeetHal]

MoL, I just wanted to put in my two cents and say that I appreciate you actually debating here in the forums.

[auximenes]

I guess what I'm asking is if a Storied Tale that gives you a replacement for the raid experience is the type of thing you want

Yes, I'd love to be able to experience the core of the raids without having to join a big group. I almost always play solo so there is a lot of great content design I miss out on.