Rings of Power

[Echoweaver]

the fact that all major battles were fought in the broad daylight and no mention of Orcs having any major problem with it, we have to arrive to the conclusion that light don't have significant impact on them.

Yeah, it doesn't seem consistent even within the LoR text. I recall that the Uruk-hai were powerful in part because they were unaffected by sunlight. Also, the sun was blotted out for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. OTOH, at other times in lore orcs seem to be doing their thing out in the sunlight without trouble.

I found a Hobbit quote wandering the internet:
"They don't like the sun; it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy".
-The Hobbit, Chapter 5: "Riddles in the Dark"

It appears this question of orc response to sunlight has come up before amongst fans .

[Radhruin_EU]

Yeah, it doesn't seem consistent even within the LoR text. I recall that the Uruk-hai were powerful in part because they were unaffected by sunlight. Also, the sun was blotted out for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. OTOH, at other times in lore orcs seem to be doing their thing out in the sunlight without trouble.

I found a Hobbit quote wandering the internet:
"They don't like the sun; it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy".
-The Hobbit, Chapter 5: "Riddles in the Dark"

It appears this question of orc response to sunlight has come up before amongst fans .

In LOTR you have to bear in mind time of year, time of day and weather. Tolkien was pretty careful about details like that. Here are a couple of excerpts:

'But what are we going to do at sunrise?' said some of the Northerners.

'Go on running,' said Uglúk. 'What do you think? Sit on the grass and
wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?'

'But we can't run in the sunlight.'

'You'll run with me behind you,' said Uglúk. 'Run! Or you'll never see
your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What's the use of sending out
mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night
lasts!'
________________

In the afternoon Uglúk's troop overtook the Northerners. They were
flagging in the rays of the bright sun, winter sun shining in a pale cool sky
though it was; their heads were down and their tongues lolling out.
'Maggots!' jeered the Isengarders. 'You're cooked. The Whiteskins will
catch you and eat you. They're coming!'

[DavidmeetHal]

I heard the two writers are going to be sidelined for next season. Not sure if this is true or not, just saw it on some YouTube review channel.

[TesalionLortus]

I've seen this video just now, sounds like a legit insider take. Though it's not exactly "they did sidelined them" and more like "it is the most likely they will sideline them, while officially they're still at the helm" - according to insider knowledge of how these things usually work and what's the word behind-the-scenes. Because yeah, what we see in the news is just smoke-screen, damage control, but they know the show hasn't performed as well as they hoped.

The worst thing with such things is that it's not a Looney Tunes cartoon, where each episode has little consequence on the other. You can't just change it altogether if you're sticking to characters and plot from your first season - and all of these things were already so super disappointing, reality defying or badly characterized that they can't be reasonably salvaged as believable characters, no matter what they do with them... so it's already too late for any of that. So, I would imagine they'll just focus on making it super bombastic with action and your usual Hollywood fest, in order to fight for the typical consumer or fans who can be swayed by well-executed lore-based action sequences/events, but who can tell.

[DavidmeetHal]

I've seen this video just now, sounds like a legit insider take. Though it's not exactly "they did sidelined them" and more like "it is the most likely they will sideline them, while officially they're still at the helm" - according to insider knowledge of how these things usually work and what's the word behind-the-scenes. Because yeah, what we see in the news is just smoke-screen, damage control, but they know the show hasn't performed as well as they hoped.

The worst thing with such things is that it's not a Looney Tunes cartoon, where each episode has little consequence on the other. You can't just change it altogether if you're sticking to characters and plot from your first season - and all of these things were already so super disappointing, reality defying or badly characterized that they can't be reasonably salvaged as believable characters, no matter what they do with them... so it's already too late for any of that. So, I would imagine they'll just focus on making it super bombastic with action and your usual Hollywood fest, in order to fight for the typical consumer or fans who can be swayed by well-executed lore-based action sequences/events, but who can tell.

That's the video I was talking about. Even though it's VERY unlikely, it is possible they can turn it around, for example, the first two seasons of Star Trek Next Gen were pretty bad, and the show picked up after that.

I get what you're saying though.

[Mirhaen]

Yeah, it doesn't seem consistent even within the LoR text. I recall that the Uruk-hai were powerful in part because they were unaffected by sunlight. Also, the sun was blotted out for the Battle of Pelennor Fields. OTOH, at other times in lore orcs seem to be doing their thing out in the sunlight without trouble.

I found a Hobbit quote wandering the internet:
"They don't like the sun; it makes their legs wobble and their heads giddy".
-The Hobbit, Chapter 5: "Riddles in the Dark"

It appears this question of orc response to sunlight has come up before amongst fans .

Inconsistence or answer being in various things. Like which Orcs exactly, who is their master and/or creator, what were the circumstance, etc. Taking all into account, I have concluded what I stated already

There was a good read about Orcs, specifically in the Second Age, in the History of Middle-earth: Sauron indeed achieved even greater control over his Orcs than Morgoth had done. He was, of course, operating on a smaller scale, and he had no enemies so great and so fell as were the Noldor in their might in the Elder Days. But he had also inherited from those days difficulties, such as the diversity of the Orcs in breed and language, and the feuds among them; while in many places in Middle-earth, after the fall of Thangorodrim and during the concealment of Sauron, the Orcs recovering from their helplessness had set up petty realms of their own and had become accustomed to independence. Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command.

[TesalionLortus]

Inconsistence or answer being in various things. Like which Orcs exactly, who is their master and/or creator, what were the circumstance, etc.

Nonetheless Sauron in time managed to unite them all in unreasoning hatred of the Elves and of Men who associated with them; while the Orcs of his own trained armies were so completely under his will that they would sacrifice themselves without hesitation at his command.

Yeah, but even here you've got inconsistence with his own orcs in Mordor and the entire "slay each other for petty spoils!" with two neighboring garrisons at the Tower of Cirith Ungol (so they hardly that culturally distinct), and that was in time of war and urgency, to make it even weirder, and this one silly and strategically dumb episode cost Sauron his very life undoubtedly. So it does not always hold up, as far as orcs go. That's part of the reason why I'm completely fine with the game's approach to orcs, in particular after the Fall.

[Echoweaver]

Inconsistence or answer being in various things. Like which Orcs exactly, who is their master and/or creator, what were the circumstance, etc. Taking all into account, I have concluded what I stated already

To further muck the subject up, here's a longer quote from TTT, which still doesn't nail this down but leaves room for a lot of interpretations. It would indicate to me that while orcs are capable of going out in the sunlight, they won't do it voluntarily unless their very life is threatened. At least, that's the case in this passage. (Alternately, they can voluntarily go out in the sunlight, but not run? Shrug.)

I personally lean in the direction of more weight on orcs avoiding sunlight because it has thematic underpinnings. But I think you can support a lot of conclusions based on which passages you use as evidence.

----------

The orc-band began to descend a narrow ravine leading down into the misty plain below. Merry and Pippin, separated by a dozen Orcs or more, climbed down with them. At the bottom they stepped on to grass, and the hearts of the hobbits rose. ‘Now straight on!’ shouted Uglúk. ‘West and a little north. Follow Lugdush.’

‘But what are we going to do at sunrise?’ said some of the Northerners.

‘Go on running,’ said Uglúk. ‘What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?’

‘But we can’t run in the sunlight.’

‘You’ll run with me behind you,’ said Uglúk. ‘Run! Or you’ll never see your beloved holes again. By the White Hand! What’s the use of sending out mountain-maggots on a trip, only half trained. Run, curse you! Run while night lasts!’

Then the whole company began to run with the long loping strides of Orcs. They kept no order, thrusting, jostling, and cursing; yet their speed was very great. Each hobbit had a guard of three. Pippin was far back in the line. He wondered how long he would be able to go on at this pace: he had had no food since the morning. One of his guards had a whip. But at present the orc-liquor was still hot in him. His wits, too, were wide-awake.

[Mirhaen]

Yeah, but even here you've got inconsistence with his own orcs in Mordor and the entire "slay each other for petty spoils!" with two neighboring garrisons at the Tower of Cirith Ungol (so they hardly that culturally distinct), and that was in time of war and urgency, to make it even weirder, and this one silly and strategically dumb episode cost Sauron his very life undoubtedly. So it does not always hold up, as far as orcs go. That's part of the reason why I'm completely fine with the game's approach to orcs, in particular after the Fall.

This has been shortly explained in the footnote: But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some ‘enemy’ to prevent them from slaying one another.

@Echoweaver correct, though I'm trying to stay in the Second Age with my comments, as we are talking about series

[wispsong]

Morgoth is finally in chains never to reign again
but the cost was high...so many died during these centuries.
The sea overtook our lands and we had to leave.
Some returned to Valinor (show shot of ships going there) but some of us went over the mountains into these lands (show shot of moving elfs coming into this new land)

I think this would have been a good intro for ROP.

Then concentrate on the elf story, Celebrimbors friendship with the dwarves and the forging of the rings.

[TesalionLortus]

This has been shortly explained in the footnote: But there remained one flaw in his control, inevitable. In the kingdom of hate and fear, the strongest thing is hate. All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some ‘enemy’ to prevent them from slaying one another.

Yeah, but it's just another contradiction and doesn't explain anything. It's the middle of War of the Ring, they ARE in war and busy, but still slaying one another, at key outpost. With all these different contradictions, I would say the truth would be technically somewhere in the middle - Sauron could control them to an extent (so mostly some kind of subconscious messaging and impulses), and if he really extended much of his will, then to a huge extent, but that's not something he would do/put an effort towards on daily basis, perhaps because it required lots of energy and it's not like he felt desperate and cornered or anything. So he would rather control his minions through chain of command and entire governance structure of Mordor (something we explored in LOTRO to a large extent) but that meant that, just like with men, there would be some trace of independence and independent squabbling amongst the orcs. Limited though chain of command and iron fist of governance, but still a significant one.

[Radhruin_EU]

Yeah, but it's just another contradiction and doesn't explain anything. It's the middle of War of the Ring, they ARE in war and busy, but still slaying one another, at key outpost. With all these different contradictions, I would say the truth would be technically somewhere in the middle - Sauron could control them to an extent (so mostly some kind of subconscious messaging and impulses), and if he really extended much of his will, then to a huge extent, but that's not something he would do/put an effort towards on daily basis, perhaps because it required lots of energy and it's not like he felt desperate and cornered or anything. So he would rather control his minions through chain of command and entire governance structure of Mordor (something we explored in LOTRO to a large extent) but that meant that, just like with men, there would be some trace of independence and independent squabbling amongst the orcs. Limited though chain of command and iron fist of governance, but still a significant one.

It was the same thing we see happening elsewhere while Sam and Frodo were in Mordor, of different sets of Orcs coming to blows. In this case we're told that "Two liveries Sam noticed, one marked by the Red Eye, the other by a Moon disfigured with a ghastly face of death" and it's Mordor-Orcs vs. Morgul-Orcs, Shagrat's lot vs. Gorbag's. A difference of opinion over Frodo and his things, likely which of them was going to turn him over to Lugburz (the Dark Tower) and be rewarded.

Sauron's attention was elsewhere.

[Mirhaen]

Yeah, but it's just another contradiction and doesn't explain anything. It's the middle of War of the Ring, they ARE in war and busy, but still slaying one another, at key outpost.

I don't see contradiction. It is a war time but they are not in an actual combat. They are not slaying anyone so they gonna start squabble among themselves. Above Rad gave good example, thank you

[TesalionLortus]

I don't see contradiction. It is a war time but they are not in an actual combat. They are not slaying anyone so they gonna start squabble among themselves. Above Rad gave good example, thank you

Well, I feel like you just don't get my point. Elsewhere it was said Sauron mastered his orcs, like they were extension of his will and could masterfully control them, to the point they would throw themselves to their deaths. To state that it had a flaw is all okay, so they need to be kept in war with someone to avoid that, but you can't honestly expect this means "be kept at war 24h/a day or else" because that's nuts and means that, even with good henchmen management, Mordor would turn into bits and pieces (as a domain) within a few years rather than last centuries (if Sauron were actually to keep them "busy" with some internal/external enemy all the time). So you don't get to throw this around as an excuse every time something seems fishy. But yes, that fight at key outpost was a contradiction of that. Or, to say that Sauron was preoccupied just in this very moment, so conveniently couldn't control them, but somehow managed for centuries, seems like a contrivance too. That's why I came up with the deduction from the later part of that post - seems like the most reasonable take on all this.

Now, how it relates to RoP, that's something I think they got pretty neat at least (or... it appears that way so far). With Sauron outright slaying them one after another in painful experiments (in a way outright debuffing his own influence he had mastered on their loyalties and will) and Adar, a figure of such reverence amongst their kind, turning against him, I can see how they can just snap completely out of control and walk their own independent path here, perhaps even in S2 if they were outright to resist Sauron alongside Adar.

(Btw, I'm telling you, that's what they'll do except Waldreg will betray Adar to Sauron and maybe will become a Nazgul or something :P That's the kind of predictability and buildup I would expect here except if there are different writers put in charge, then who knows how all that may change)

[Radhruin_EU]

I don't see contradiction. It is a war time but they are not in an actual combat. They are not slaying anyone so they gonna start squabble among themselves.

I don't agree with what you said about needing to keep them busy or they'd just start fighting amongst themselves, though. When we see them in the book, things are tense and they're all wound up, so if anything it likely took less than usual for things to kick off. Being on 'Team Sauron' meant that rival groups were forced into close proximity to each other and that made for some added tension. But still, there's a rough camaraderie and some semblance of social order among the Orcs in any given group, however brittle and 'Lord of the Flies' in nature it might be, and rival groups would cooperate if they had some common interest - they might hate themselves and each other but they hated everybody else even more. And they had to cooperate well enough to be able to survive.

[Mirhaen]

@Rad not sure what you talking about, it was not like I invented something, I quoted Tolkien. You and Tesalion both even gave examples in support of what Tolkien said

@TesalionLortus I guess you expect that everything is well explained, but that would need couple of books more.

[Radhruin_EU]

@Rad not sure what you talking about, it was not like I invented something, I quoted Tolkien.

And put your own spin on it.

All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some ‘enemy’ to prevent them from slaying one another.

They are not slaying anyone so they gonna start squabble among themselves.

What I'm saying is no, they don't just get bored and start fighting each other if there's nobody else to fight. Even with Orcs it takes a bit more than that.

[Mirhaen]

What I'm saying is no, they don't just get bored and start fighting each other if there's nobody else to fight. Even with Orcs it takes a bit more than that.

Quote me where I said that they get bored. You are overstating my comment.

[Radhruin_EU]

Quote me where I said that they get bored. You are overstating my comment.

Well fine, you implied that if they didn't get to slay anyone they'd start fighting amongst themselves. Call it what you like, I can't think of anything that'd support that reading of it.

[Mirhaen]

Well fine, you implied that if they didn't get to slay anyone they'd start fighting amongst themselves. Call it what you like, I can't think of anything that'd support that reading of it.

Fair enough.

Well lets see, do you know of an example when they squabbled while being in an actual combat? Because I can't think of any really. But I never said, nor wanted to imply, that boredom was a reason for it.

[Radhruin_EU]

Fair enough.

Well lets see, do you know of an example when they squabbled while being in an actual combat? Because I can't think of any really. But I never said, nor wanted to imply, that boredom was a reason for it.

In the book, when we see them fighting amongst themselves it's mostly when there's more than one bunch of Orcs in the same place *and* there's some real reason for them to be at loggerheads.

- there's the scene with Saruman's Uruk-hai, the Mordor-Orcs and the Moria-Orcs where they've got differing motives (the Moria-Orcs just want revenge), loyalties and orders (the Uruk-hai want to take the hobbits west to Isengard, the Mordor-Orcs want to take them east to where a Nazgul was waiting) and that's settled when Ugluk and his big, strong 'lads' show them who's boss by killing several of them. And this was out and about on enemy territory, a potential combat situation with the Rohirrim being somewhere about.

- there's the scene at the Tower of Cirith Ungol with all-out fighting between rival companies of Orcs from Mordor and Minas Morgul, over a prize they both want

- there's the scene with the Orc tracker and his larger companion who turn on each other because it seemed the larger one was solely out for himself and wouldn't even stick by his own folk, which was evidently something even Orcs wouldn't tolerate

- there's the scene at the encampment in Mordor where various companies of Orcs have arrived at the gate at the same time and they all want in so they can have a rest, so there's a lot of cursing, jostling, scuffling and *some* drawn blades

So it's a matter of circumstances and motives, not just because they haven't killed anything recently. Even Orcs have a bit more depth than that.

[Mirhaen]

Not sure where is misunderstanding really because I said same with the quote from Tolkien. Only difference is that I haven't spoken about motives because that was also in the quote! It spoke about differences and hate between tribes. They were on the same page, or united if you will, in hate against Elves and Men, so in fighting a common enemy, and it seems in not much else. Second thing that would come to my mind would be fear.

About Orcs having some depth, I think that was evident from quotes also, for anyone who spent some time thinking about what is actually written. From them making their own petty realms and languages (borrowing and twisting from other languages), elsewhere Tolkien also spoke that they were making their own potions and ointments, they were able to craft also, but they had no desire for art so to say, so their products were just of a functional nature, and they obviously have feelings, they have notions of what is right and wrong for them, etc.

[Radhruin_EU]

Not sure where is misunderstanding really because I said same with the quote from Tolkien. Only difference is that I haven't spoken about motives because that was also in the quote! It spoke about differences and hate between tribes. They were on the same page, or united if you will, in hate against Elves and Men, so in fighting a common enemy, and it seems in not much else. Second thing that would come to my mind would be fear.

About Orcs having some depth, I think that was evident from quotes also, for anyone who spent some time thinking about what is actually written. From them making their own petty realms and languages (borrowing and twisting from other languages), elsewhere Tolkien also spoke that they were making their own potions and ointments, they were able to craft also, but they had no desire for art so to say, so their products were just of a functional nature, and they obviously have feelings, they have notions of what is right and wrong for them, etc.

Err... that would be where you said Orcs needed to be kept at war with some enemy to avoid fighting among themselves, or they needed to slay other people to avoid fighting among themselves. I said it was that spin that you'd tried to put on the quotes seemed to come out of nowhere. Orcs are evidently tribal, within each group they hang together - doubtless with some internal friction over who was in charge and the pecking order within the group, but they couldn't have been knifing each other over every little thing whenever there was nobody else around to fight or they'd never have survived in the wild. And between groups, they could evidently cooperate provided their leaders could come to terms and they're not entirely unreasonable. If they don't get on because of some irreconcilable difference but can't simply avoid each other then sure, that'd be a recipe for violence.

Also Orcs did evidently go in for art, after their fashion and to their tastes...

'And here is the knife that cut them!' said Gimli. He stooped and drew
out of a tussock, into which some heavy foot had trampled it, a short jagged
blade. The haft from which it had been snapped was beside it. 'It was an orc-
weapon,' he said, holding it gingerly, and looking with disgust at the carved
handle: it had been shaped like a hideous head with squinting eyes and leering
mouth.

[Mirhaen]

Err... that would be where you said Orcs needed to be kept at war with some enemy to avoid fighting among themselves, or they needed to slay other people to avoid fighting among themselves. I said it was that spin that you'd tried to put on the quotes seemed to come out of nowhere.

It came from the author himself. Ok, this is the actual quote, again: "All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some ‘enemy’ to prevent them from slaying one another." Ever at war to prevent them slaying one another. So how did I made any spin? I pointed out that all squabble I can think of was out of combat, so for me that resonate with what Tolkien wrote. That is to say they showed unity largely in fighting the common enemy. He said it, I merely quoted. And I don't think it should be taken in a literal sense either. Orcs teamed up with Men also.

I agree with the rest. It's a logical thinking.

Also Orcs did evidently go in for art, after their fashion and to their tastes...

I suppose depends what Tolkien considered to be art when he said that they had no desire for art. He called magic art also. He described their weapons as (quoting) "crude but effective". It is also no way of knowing if that particular weapon was crafted by Orcs or slave workers. But it's a nice detail, I give you credit for it

[Radhruin_EU]

It came from the author himself. Ok, this is the actual quote, again: "All his Orcs hated one another, and must be kept ever at war with some ‘enemy’ to prevent them from slaying one another."

Mind the context, Regardless of what Sauron had to do to keep the disparate groups of Orcs who were under his command from fighting amongst themselves, a group of Orcs could evidently form some sort of collective tribal identity *for themselves* if given half a chance. As I said, they had to be able to do that or they'd have never managed to survive in the wild. There was that period of a thousand years or so after Morgoth's downfall when Sauron was nowhere to be seen but there were surviving bands of Orcs in the world. That couldn't have happened if Orcs left to their own devices would simply murder each other.

You only have to look at what Gorbag says:

'What d'you say? – if we get a chance, you and me'll slip off and set up
somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's
good loot nice and handy, and no big bosses.'

So the spin you've made neglects things like that. If they hated each other so much then it wouldn't even occur to them to think of going off and forming their own gang, nor think of any of the 'lads' as 'trusty'.

I suppose depends what Tolkien considered to be art when he said that they had no desire for art.

What's described in that quote is figurative art; it doesn't have to be sophisticated in order to count. I imagine Tolkien meant high art, since nobody would expect Orcs to have fine sensibilities. But if they think of decorating anything, even in some horrid way, that's still art