Position of the Lotro Forum

[Arantha]

Hello
I'd like to talk with you about the position of this forum for Lotro, the player base and others...
In my eyes, a forum is a communication wheel and tool for

• player to player
• Devs with player
• interested people coming in and see some hints
• official messages from SSG/Lotro Team

But in my eyes it is mutating to a complain (and sometimes bashing) forum without any reactions from the Devs and Officials. But the idea of the forum shouldn't get corrupted because of hate and a attitude of demand/claim. Everybody who is claiming something should do this in love and sorrow for the future of lotro.
But the Devs and Managers imho should be way more active, explain a ton of issues and calm down some reactions in this way. I hope the forum gets back this wheel function between all parts of participents.
Thanks

[Arantha]

What do you think?

[TesalionLortus]

But in my eyes it is mutating to a complain (and sometimes bashing) forum without any reactions from the Devs and Officials. But the idea of the forum shouldn't get corrupted because of hate and a attitude of demand/claim. Everybody who is claiming something should do this in love and sorrow for the future of lotro.

Hey... this is exactly how this forum worked for the last 7 years or maybe longer... Nothing new to see here... "This game is dead" or "this game is in maintenance mode" thousands of times, lots of claims about Turbine/SSG being toxic unprofessional and uncaring, anger and moral drama about every little (even more so if not so little...) change to the game or abandonment of older systems. Not to mention bizarre completely unfeasible demands and proposals. Not saying being angry/critical isn't justified sometimes (wink wink everyone knows what happened recently and how it was handled) but even then 90% if it is raw anger/bashing as you say so not a feasible, realistic approach to the matter discussed and when SSG does something they clearly have their reasons even if most wouldn't agree with those reasons (morally or otherwise)

Actually, this is part of why I became a bit more active after years of mostly inactivity. To contribute a bit more creative effort/useful ideas and offer well-balanced POV in the sea of immediate negativity and bashing. Also to show love for the appreciated parts of the game and share some fascination about the world with those who actually do that here (rather than discuss about stats and end game 24 hours a day).

But the Devs and Managers imho should be way more active, explain a ton of issues and calm down some reactions in this way. I hope the forum gets back this wheel function between all parts of participents.
Thanks

Kind of agree but then again, they have a lot on their plate probably and my only hope, no matter which controversial decisions they make, is that they see *useful* *well-articulated* feedback/critique/worries and *feasible* ideas, taking them to heart and perhaps turning those into reality. That's all I *really* need.

[Brinswith]

"the game is dying" has been around since Eregion launched the game is still going 15 years later. In the beginning though Turbine and now SSG used to interact with us a lot more. They shared the players enthusiasm for the lore and the game and actively sought our opinions and feedback. Which we shared gladly. Many of those conversations are now lost sadly. Over the years though the communication has eroded constantly year after year. We're now at a point where a major issue such as the removal of the rep tomes is met with absolute silence.

[WeirdJedi]

Have you ever tried visiting other gaming forums? What about the Discussions page for Steam games. Just for fun, I went over to a new game that came out in Early Access a couple days ago. The forum was filled with people that were, you guessed it, complaining. Some wanted the game to come out faster. Others hated the fact that multiplayer wasn't incorporated in the game yet. A couple were asking for 4k or mod support. A few said the game wasn't worth paying for.

What do you expect a developer to say? He responds in maybe three of the hundred threads pointing out the Early Access notification on the front page where it mentions the state of the game and things like multiplayer will be made available before launch.

[alwaysbroke]

So LOTRO is like a game that's perpetually in Early Access. It all makes sense now.

[TesalionLortus]

So LOTRO is like a game that's perpetually in Early Access. It all makes sense now.

No, the opposite. Perpetually in Early Access means the devs need to satisfy the majority of their early access playerbase (only source of cash) which usually means perfectionists obsessed with numbers, mechanics, difficulty, complexities and other underlying mechanisms. The result is mostly unfun game devoid of immersion and music without any sort of narrative behind it... with just 'numbers' that change constantly under the hood and the game will never be finished (well, maybe in 100+ years if development lasts that long...). That's NOT Lotro. Thankfully

[MourneBlade]

I think Cordovan should get off his #### and do his job with the forums. Instead of saying "I'm too busy" busy doing what? avoiding backlash?

Tired of him doing things on other social media platforms that I refuse to use.

Anything relating to do with the game should be put on here first, and then all that other stupidity 2nd.

IMHO-his priority is D&D online, not LotRO.

[Halphast]

communication has eroded constantly year after year. We're now at a point where a major issue such as the removal of the rep tomes is met with absolute silence.

While rep tomes are an issue, they're not a "major issue" since it doesn't affect everyone. A recent major issue would be something like universal lag, or the disappearing Runekeeper pouches that shut down the game for a while. Those DID get a response- and a response is probably coming about the rep tomes, too.

[Arantha]

Have you ever tried visiting other gaming forums? What about the Discussions page for Steam games. Just for fun, I went over to a new game that came out in Early Access a couple days ago. The forum was filled with people that were, you guessed it, complaining. Some wanted the game to come out faster. Others hated the fact that multiplayer wasn't incorporated in the game yet. A couple were asking for 4k or mod support. A few said the game wasn't worth paying for.

What do you expect a developer to say? He responds in maybe three of the hundred threads pointing out the Early Access notification on the front page where it mentions the state of the game and things like multiplayer will be made available before launch.

That is no argument for me. We should not compare with others, but give a better example.

[Neinda]

That is no argument for me. We should not compare with others, but give a better example.

Completely agree. This game could strive to set the standards other games only wish they could meet. It will require the powers that be to interact with the player base a bit more. The recent change and the resulting comments are a symptom of a bigger problem that needs to be addressed. The player base wants to know where the future of this game is headed and the devs need to communicate their vision. Some of us will love the future of the game and others will move on. The fact that so many of us long time players are here complaining shows that we really want to see lotro succeed in the future and we are frustrated at the moment. It might be because of lag, some of the changes, the store, lack of communication or whatever. Talk to us devs. Tell us your timetable to address the performance issues. Give us help desk updates on a regular schedule, even if the update is still waiting. Explain the currency caps and why they are important. Explain the not so less grindy new legendary weapon system. Explain the push toward loot box keys, etc. Some of us will make a few statements about why you are wrong and more than likely move on. Others will consider it a great idea and be a bit more supportive. You can't lose by being honest and talking to the player base unless your long term goal is dishonest and you want to keep it hidden. The player base is trying to understand where the game is being directed and very frustrated at the lack of information.

[Arantha]

Sometimes frustrations have to get out of mind but with respect

[Brinswith]

The sad truth of our forums is that we are second class citizens in SSG's eyes. A cursory glance over at our better off neighbours DDO forums (Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums (ddo.com)) show Cordovan to be much more active and willing to engage with their players. Even finding the time to post in the screenshot of the week contest all the while stalling the LOTRO beacon and Cord of the Rings under the vagueness of a busy schedule. While we cannot even get a response to the removal of rep tomes.

[WeirdJedi]

The sad truth of our forums is that we are second class citizens in SSG's eyes. A cursory glance over at our better of neighbours DDO forums (Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums (ddo.com)) show Cordovan to be much more active and willing to engage with their players. Even finding the time to post in the screenshot of the week contest all the while stalling the LOTRO beacon and Cord of the Rings under the vagueness of a busy schedule. While we cannot even get a response to the removal of rep tomes.

I don't know much about DDO, but their Chronicler stops the same time as our LOTRO Beacon. Weekly screenshots looks interesting. I wonder if they get anything like the 500 lotro points that was rewarded for ours. Seems like the same kind of activity is happening over here to me. He highlights certain things happening, addresses issues when it comes to wrong promotions, and checks up on people. That evening he went around all the servers was fun: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...ry-Celebration!. I was hoping he would do more of that, but I don't see much happening over at the new forum: https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...32#post8139332. Honestly, I don't mind if he doesn't come back for Cord of the Rings. Those last few had people harassing him in chat. I know he says it doesn't bother him, but it bothered me seeing it happen.

[Halphast]

The sad truth of our forums is that we are second class citizens in SSG's eyes. A cursory glance over at our better of neighbours DDO forums (Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums (ddo.com)) show Cordovan to be much more active and willing to engage with their players.

It's the community manager's job to give attention where it's needed. LotRO is a lively community with both in-game and player-run events, contests, discussions, etc- and we're for the most part friendly and know how to behave. I don't know the situation over at DDO but if that community is lacking or in decline, it makes sense Cord would be more active over there.

Is that the case? I don't know- I don't even play DDO. But that makes a lot more sense to me... If Cord were spending all his time on DDO just because he personally liked DDO better, or because LotRO players are "second class citizens," it would be time for a job performance review because that's obvious neglect. Doesn't seem likely to me- more likely LotRO is "the good kid in class" who needs less supervision and attention to stay motivated and focused.

Also, the stat tome issue may not be Cordovan's decision to make. There's nothing for him to tell us until the devs/management/whoever decide what to do about the tomes. Then Cord will have something to tell the community.

[Brinswith]

While rep tomes are an issue, they're not a "major issue" since it doesn't affect everyone. A recent major issue would be something like universal lag, or the disappearing Runekeeper pouches that shut down the game for a while. Those DID get a response- and a response is probably coming about the rep tomes, too.

That of course is your opinion and you are entitled to it just as much as I am mine. I think the removal of rep tomes is a significant issue as has been proven by the thread in General Discussion and by the panic around the skirmish camps in the short time we had before the change went live. It raises the question of "what next?" and it really isn't a huge jump to see that Essence Reclamation Scrolls would be the next step. Despite what you say about rep tomes not affecting everyone the Reclamation Scrolls absolutely do. All people are asking for is some acknowledgement from the SSG team around the issue. If SSG team members are seen to be active in other parts of LOTRO's forum and the same members also active in our sister game forums. Why is it beyond the realms of expectation to receive even a "yes we are aware people are unhappy". Surely that's the very least we can expect of a community manager and Eru knows we've had a few over the years.

[Vilan]

Is that the case? I don't know- I don't even play DDO. But that makes a lot more sense to me... If Cord were spending all his time on DDO just because he personally liked DDO better, or because LotRO players are "second class citizens," it would be time for a job performance review because that's obvious neglect. Doesn't seem likely to me- more likely LotRO is "the good kid in class" who needs less supervision and attention to stay motivated and focused.

As I recall, DDO and LOTRO used to have separate community managers. The LOTRO one left and they decided that they couldn't afford a new one, so they had the DDO one cover both games instead. That DDO one was a guy named Cordovan. And I'm pretty sure he's said that he does enjoy DDO more than LOTRO. Which is totally fine, to each their own, but I think that inevitably results in less effort put into the LOTRO side of things, though I think he's doing well enough.

[Arantha]

this belongs also in this thread:

Right, technical issues that frequently happened in the months before the break was indeed part of the reason, but mostly it was to temporarily re-prioritize my work schedule to allow for additional required work to be done. I don't get upset when people think their community manager doesn't do enough; anyone who actually knows anything about it knows that is not even slightly true, and there's nothing wrong with demanding as much community interaction as possible from your game company. It is true that the whole "livestream thing" was something I essentially forced into existence back in the day pre-SSG, and it has never been a formal part of the job, just something I give up two hours (reality: fourish hours give or take cuz of prep/postproduction/etc) per week for. I agree, though, that in general this kind of thing is mostly expected in 2022, which is why it won't just be coming back but we're working to get at least one more face on stream. Hopefully when +Cord of the Rings returns it'll be better than it was both in terms of quality and production. That's the goal, anyway.

I don't think, that it's important to have such a stream or another platform, but to exchange with the customers is a highest priority, the more transparent the better.
A forum is a very good way in my eyes. Streams are mor direct and helps for sure, but not for so many people. social media is for the discussions and thoughts/sorrwos not important.

[Arantha]

Thanks all for your opinions
I'd love to see a Dev or managers view aswell...

[Uroc]

Only what I am sure is that people should not bully devs, Cordovan... It is ok to express negative criticisms to company decisions but I will never support bullying. Maybe I would if the case was that some powerful person from rich company has more money to defend his very not-moral actions but we don't talking here about working rights conditions and similar things.

Maybe situation in communication could be better if for example SSG announce change but also what is future plan with that change.

[Arantha]

Only what I am sure is that people should not bully devs, Cordovan... It is ok to express negative criticisms to company decisions but I will never support bullying. Maybe I would if the case was that some powerful person from rich company has more money to defend his very not-moral actions but we don't talking here about working rights conditions and similar things.

Maybe situation in communication could be better if for example SSG announce change but also what is future plan with that change.

agree on the first part. Arguments should always be the way to discuss, not bullying

[Arantha]

I guess it's too much expectation to have a official answer to these thoughts, but I at least tried it.

[Echoweaver]

As far as I can tell, the toxicity of video game forums is universal. Maybe that's why it's not dealt with more assertively -- it's just considered to be industry standard. I've come to think we need much more engaged moderation. Video game forums are dinosaurs in the world of online communities in the level of abusive behavior they permit. They're about 2 steps above 4chan.

It's not just the abuse directed at staff. Regular forum posters take a lot of abuse too. Don't get me wrong -- I'd really like more SSG engagement on issues I'm concerned about (which I started to list, but that just encourages the thread to get derailed, so I won't). But the biggest reason we can't have much in the way of interesting conversation here is that most folks who drop in expecting to have a normal conversation are driven back out the door. There's a cost to permitting rampant toxic behavior. That cost is pretty much anything OTHER than toxic behavior.

I do worry about it because it's clear that the devs DO read the forums. I feel like some of the recent gameplay changes have been directed toward player types that are over-represented on these forums. There are broad swaths of play styles that are largely absent here.

I don't know if we would have more dev engagement if the community were less abusive. Dealing with that abusiveness is part of the job for most of the industry. But I am quite sure we'd have more engagement overall if we had enough moderation to stop new/infrequent forum posters from getting blasted across the room every time they say something thought-provoking or new.

don't think, that it's important to have such a stream or another platform, but to exchange with the customers is a highest priority, the more transparent the better.
A forum is a very good way in my eyes. Streams are mor direct and helps for sure, but not for so many people. social media is for the discussions and thoughts/sorrwos not important.

This part I do disagree with. Forums like these are the dinosaurs. I bet a lot more players attend streams. I'd go there but I hate streaming overall, and I don't have a ton of space in my life to watch videos. I have sometimes watched Cord of the Rings or the stroll through game podcasts. They're always informative, but they take so LONG. Ah, well.

[Askelin]

As far as I can tell, the toxicity of video game forums is universal. Maybe that's why it's not dealt with more assertively -- it's just considered to be industry standard. I've come to think we need much more engaged moderation. Video game forums are dinosaurs in the world of online communities in the level of abusive behavior they permit. They're about 2 steps above 4chan.

It's not just the abuse directed at staff. Regular forum posters take a lot of abuse too. Don't get me wrong -- I'd really like more SSG engagement on issues I'm concerned about (which I started to list, but that just encourages the thread to get derailed, so I won't). But the biggest reason we can't have much in the way of interesting conversation here is that most folks who drop in expecting to have a normal conversation are driven back out the door. There's a cost to permitting rampant toxic behavior. That cost is pretty much anything OTHER than toxic behavior.

I do worry about it because it's clear that the devs DO read the forums. I feel like some of the recent gameplay changes have been directed toward player types that are over-represented on these forums. There are broad swaths of play styles that are largely absent here.

I don't know if we would have more dev engagement if the community were less abusive. Dealing with that abusiveness is part of the job for most of the industry. But I am quite sure we'd have more engagement overall if we had enough moderation to stop new/infrequent forum posters from getting blasted across the room every time they say something thought-provoking or new.



This part I do disagree with. Forums like these are the dinosaurs. I bet a lot more players attend streams. I'd go there but I hate streaming overall, and I don't have a ton of space in my life to watch videos. I have sometimes watched Cord of the Rings or the stroll through game podcasts. They're always informative, but they take so LONG. Ah, well.

If you think the forums are toxic, then you haven't been on any discord servers. Even then most people can take a bit of back and forth when the moderation is almost non existent, in a crude way it almost forces people to have a discussion, back up what you say or people will challenge you...
I think honestly the forums can be a little over-moderated at times, threads can be closed just for some off topic discussion and ruin it for everyone, allowing people to go unchallenged and post the most foolish things with the report button close to their finger when anyone dares challenge them. People get smug about this too. But that's just how it is in any community, you either have too much moderation and not enough, there is no fine balance that can be feasibly achieved that will make everyone happy.

The 'broad swaths of play styles that are largely absent here' are the majority of players imo, you only really find a handful of active forumers here, partly because there are more convenient methods of communication nowadays, and partly because of the strict moderation, leaving a sort of niche old guard of people who are lead to believe that they are the only ones deemed worthy enough to have the developer's ears. The type that 24/7 defend any change, the types that believe the forums are a perfect haven and if anyone dare question the status quo they must be toxic. That sort of smug attitude I see from some people can really dissuade me from contributing sometimes. I'd imagine that mindset would go away if the forums were updated and made more appealing for more people. I do agree with your sentiment that forums are like dinosaurs lol!

And let's face it. 90% of posts on the imageboard you mentioned are bot posts, I'd like to think I'm talking to humans here.

[Echoweaver]

If you think the forums are toxic, then you haven't been on any discord servers. Even then most people can take a bit of back and forth when the moderation is almost non existent, in a crude way it almost forces people to have a discussion, back up what you say or people will challenge you...

I'm on a lot of Discord servers. I'm just not on the ones you're talking about. I pick my Discord servers for people who are fun to talk to.

I strongly disagree with this. Abusive forum regulars don't care how "backed up" an idea is. They just hurl abuse regardless. They're also not some arbiter of what counts as a well-supported idea. It doesn't this doesn't demonstrate the resilience of the folks who join the server. It just demonstrates that folks who are treated poorly leave.

Whether you agree with an idea or not, politeness gives space for everyone to participate.

I think honestly the forums can be a little over-moderated at times, threads can be closed just for some off topic discussion and ruin it for everyone, allowing people to go unchallenged and post the most foolish things with the report button close to their finger when anyone dares challenge them. People get smug about this too. But that's just how it is in any community, you either have too much moderation and not enough, there is no fine balance that can be feasibly achieved that will make everyone happy.

I'm not on board with this either. I've never seen a closed thread that wasn't begging to be closed.

I don't think thread closure is the way to go anyway unless it involves messaging the bad actors and putting them on probation. I don't even think you can DO that on this forum because PMs have never included notifications to the user, which is pretty nuts no matter how old the software is.

The 'broad swaths of play styles that are largely absent here' are the majority of players imo, you only really find a handful of active forumers here

This I agree with.

partly because there are more convenient methods of communication nowadays, and partly because of the strict moderation, leaving a sort of niche old guard of people who are lead to believe that they are the only ones deemed worthy enough to have the developer's ears. The type that 24/7 defend any change, the types that believe the forums are a perfect haven and if anyone dare question the status quo they must be toxic. That sort of smug attitude I see from some people can really dissuade me from contributing sometimes. I'd imagine that mindset would go away if the forums were updated and made more appealing for more people. I do agree with your sentiment that forums are like dinosaurs lol!

Um, no, that's just silly. The posts attacking devs and other players vastly outnumber the posts defending changes.

Toxic posts are just toxic. They're not "daring to question the status quo." That can be done without abuse.

I have put together a little drinking game. Drink when a post:

1. Uses the term "money-grab" or claims a change is exclusively to direct players to the store.
2. Announces they've dropped their subscription and/or quitting the game because some long list of grievances.
3. Complains about grind. Two drinks if they're talking about something that is strictly optional.
4. Claims the game is no longer worth playing because an obscure nerf to some skill of one class or raid boss.
5. Claims that some mechanic is not balanced. Two drinks if it's something that was just updated for balance. Another drink if it's the opposite of a prominent complaint about the same mechanic within the last week or two.
6. Insults staff for refusing to address an complaint, especially if there's an answer from a blue name earlier in the thread that they just don't like.
7. Uses the phrase, "Slap in the face."
8. Accuses another poster of being a shill or a fanboy for saying something positive or disagreeing with a complaint.
9. Declares the game is bleeding players and/or dying. Two drinks if enrollment has recently increased.

Don't get me wrong -- I DON'T think we have enough engagement from staff either.