Is It Too Late For Hobbit Captains?

[fateHibari]

Dear Standing Stone Games,

Is it too late to add Hobbit Captains?

Firstly, let me thank you for giving us Hobbit Lore-masters and Champions come September. It is much appreciated! I'll certainly be devoting a character slot to one or the other.

Anyway, I was reading the books again, and when I got to "Return of the King," and especially the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire," I saw something that struck me. Please bear with me while I quote the relevant passage:

"The fallen hobbits were laid together on a grave on the hill-side, where later a great stone was set up with a garden about it. So ended the Battle of Bywater, 1419, the last battle fought in the Shire, and the only battle since the Greenfields, 1147, away up in the Northfarthing. In consequence, though it happily cost very few lives, it has a chapter to itself in the Red book, and the names of all those who took part were made into a Roll, and learned by heart by Shire-historians. The very considerable rise in the fame and fortune of the Cottons dates back from this time; but at the top of the Roll in all accounts stand the names of Captains Meriadoc and Peregrin."
-page 329 of "Return of the King" by J.R.R. Tolkien, last paragraph. 1983 Paperback Edition published by Ballantine Books.

The last sentence makes even more sense after reading the entire chapter backwards and forwards. Throughout the battle to regain the Shire, Merry and Pippin stood out in the way they rallied the besieged hobbits to action or to be more specific, the very fact that it was they who rallied them to begin with. My feeling is that this obvious Captain-like behaviour on the part of Merry and Pippin would fit well in the game. Besides, I can think of no better authority than the Professor who, in that last sentence, calls the two hobbits "Captains" and using an uppercase "C" to boot.

I hope that through this passage in the book, you will consider this suggestion for a future update. Thanks for reading!

Sincerely,
fateHibari

[SniperCT]

That is exactly why I support Hobbit Captains. (and honestly all races have leaders, and thus should have Captains)

[Radhruin_EU]

That is exactly why I support Hobbit Captains. (and honestly all races have leaders, and thus should have Captains)

No, hobbits don't. Not like the others do. They've just got Pippin's dad, the Thain, and he'd never had to do any actual leading in his life until the ruffians took over the Shire and he and the other Tooks had to hole up in the Took-land and fend them off. So at the time the game starts, they had no active captains because they hadn't had to do any soldiering in living memory. You know the story, the Rangers had kept the Shire safe enough that the hobbits had been lulled into a false sense of security.

The thing with Merry and Pippin hasn't even happened yet in-game and it was only ever other hobbits who called them captains, not everybody else. Given what the Captain class was intended to be you can hardly expect hobbits to stand in the same company as Men and Elves there.

[Arnenna]

Hobbit captains make more sense than hobbit lore-masters to be frank. I'm still really surprised that they went with magical hobbits. Can't get my head around that at all, it's just bizarre and weird that the story writers didn't kick off about it . . . and win.

Though hobbit captains would still have been met with dissent, it probably wouldn't be nearly as much as lil folk waving sticks around and calling lightning from the skies has done.

[BINKLEY1]

I still find Hobbit Lore-masters ... disturbing. It does not fit the lore (the surprise & joy of Hobbits when Gandalf came with fireworks: something they knew of, but did not practice in the Shire).

[Radhruin_EU]

Hobbit captains make more sense than hobbit lore-masters to be frank. I'm still really surprised that they went with magical hobbits. Can't get my head around that at all, it's just bizarre and weird that the story writers didn't kick off about it . . . and win.

Though hobbit captains would still have been met with dissent, it probably wouldn't be nearly as much as lil folk waving sticks around and calling lightning from the skies has done.

Pick your poison... whether it's magic, sword-swinging ultraviolence or leading the other Free Peoples into battle, none of those are what hobbits are about. Not that you can tell the 'hobbits can do anything, they're awesome' crowd that. Does not compute.

Some of the devs may have argued, for all we know.

[Oelle]

imo, when the time has come for the shire to be retaken, then hobbits may be captains.
if it was just about me, hobbits should only be burglars and minstrels... and minstrels should only do music and shouts, not have light effects. but my opinion doesn't matter.
I'd prefer, if they didn't give out all those new classes to all those races, but they do...
then they can as well just take the last step and allow all combinations.

[DavidmeetHal]

Personally, I don’t like the idea of hobbit captains, but I would much rather see this though than hobbit lore masters. That is just stupid beyond belief.

[Hoppa_Joel]

I support the idea of hobbit captains.
My reason?
We the players make our roleplay. The Class mechanics is just a tool.
I can see a hobbit "shirrif" or "bounder" being a captain for sure.
To say there was no law or structure enough to support someone to be a ranked official in charge of a group is wrong.
we have shirrifs we have bounders thus, we have structure, we have laws, we have a place for a captain class regardless of whether you associate the "name" captain with man.

[SniperCT]

To say there was no law or structure enough to support someone to be a ranked official in charge of a group is wrong.
we have shirrifs we have bounders thus, we have structure, we have laws, we have a place for a captain class regardless of whether you associate the "name" captain with man.

This is basically what I was saying.

[Radhruin_EU]

I support the idea of hobbit captains.
My reason?
We the players make our roleplay. The Class mechanics is just a tool.
I can see a hobbit "shirrif" or "bounder" being a captain for sure.
To say there was no law or structure enough to support someone to be a ranked official in charge of a group is wrong.
we have shirrifs we have bounders thus, we have structure, we have laws, we have a place for a captain class regardless of whether you associate the "name" captain with man.

Shirrifs just had a bit of a uniform (a cap with a feather in it) and were like watchmen or whatever - they just had sturdy sticks. Guardian would do for that, you don't need the Captain mechanics for it.

They didn't get tooled up and start going around in groups until after Lotho's takeover when there were a lot more of them and even then, no real leadership to speak of. Not like a Captain.

[Arnenna]

whatever - they just had sturdy sticks.

Shhhh, before someone makes the association of lightning to that

[Arnenna]

I support the idea of hobbit captains.
My reason?
We the players make our roleplay. The Class mechanics is just a tool.
I can see a hobbit "shirrif" or "bounder" being a captain for sure.
To say there was no law or structure enough to support someone to be a ranked official in charge of a group is wrong.
we have shirrifs we have bounders thus, we have structure, we have laws, we have a place for a captain class regardless of whether you associate the "name" captain with man.

They're not really Captains though, more like peacekeepers and maybe a bit bossy. They don't actually lead anything. I don't see the point in them, so no hobbit Cappy for me, and no hobbit swinging the stick and drawing on lightning bolts either. I'll probably have a good old giggle when I see either on my travels though, as they're going to blend in like a pink bus in a snow field.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I believe so, given the producer's letter released and that means work is almost done so can release in September for new race/class combinations.

[SniperCT]

Shirrifs just had a bit of a uniform (a cap with a feather in it) and were like watchmen or whatever - they just had sturdy sticks. Guardian would do for that, you don't need the Captain mechanics for it.

They didn't get tooled up and start going around in groups until after Lotho's takeover when there were a lot more of them and even then, no real leadership to speak of. Not like a Captain.

They're not really Captains though, more like peacekeepers and maybe a bit bossy. They don't actually lead anything. I don't see the point in them, so no hobbit Cappy for me, and no hobbit swinging the stick and drawing on lightning bolts either. I'll probably have a good old giggle when I see either on my travels though, as they're going to blend in like a pink bus in a snow field.

IMO, if Guardian can be justified by Samwise's actions much later on in the book than the time that hobbit guardians were added to the game, then hobbit captains can certainly exist based on the passage in the OP.

Probably more so.

[fateHibari]

I invite everyone to read (or re-read as the case may be) the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire." It's a moving, inspiring, and rousing chapter that will make your heart swell with pride for Hobbits and their beloved home. I know it did me, even though I had already read this part of "Return of the King" many times.

A lot of folks are terrrifed of change, whether that change is large or small in scope. Most of the Hobbits were afraid too and yet try as they might, change came to them anyway. It was at that point that they each had to make a choice: adapt or lose the Shire. I'm glad the rallying cry that burst forth from Merry, Pippin, Frodo, and Sam moved these beseiged hobbits to action.

[Arnenna]

Like I said. I can certainly see the justification being raised in here for Hobbit Captain, even though its a bit of a stretch. Hobbit LM's though . . . never in a million years. That just won't register in my brain, and though their arrival doesn't actually bother me, as I can just ignore them, they are going to make me double-take for a while for sure. Given that LM is first choice for multiboxers and AFK farmers, the scope for seeing the ridiculous is potentially huge.

[Hastran]

As stupid as the concept is, Hobbit Captains make much more sense, Lore wise than Hobbit LMs. It seems apparent that few people left playing care about Lore, so Hobbit Captains will probably come down the road eventually.

[Radhruin_EU]

IMO, if Guardian can be justified by Samwise's actions much later on in the book than the time that hobbit guardians were added to the game, then hobbit captains can certainly exist based on the passage in the OP.

Probably more so.

You're wanting them to have equal billing to Men and High Elves and that's the really dodgy part. Other hobbits can't even follow in Merry and Pippin's now 'giant'-sized footsteps and it's quite plain what sort of image the devs had in mind for Captain. Hobbits are tiny, in the press and din of battle you wouldn't even be able to see or hear them.

[Radhruin_EU]

I invite everyone to read (or re-read as the case may be) the chapter "The Scouring of the Shire." It's a moving, inspiring, and rousing chapter that will make your heart swell with pride for Hobbits and their beloved home. I know it did me, even though I had already read this part of "Return of the King" many times.

All very stirring on the tiny scale of the Shire but hardly stacks up to the full-scale battles in LOTR, does it? And those are where the image of Captain comes from, having to face whole armies of Orcs and Men rather than just a bunch of poorly-led ruffians. Tolkien gave them a battle they could win by their own efforts but he doesn't portray Merry and Pippin as being in the same league as the great Captains of Men.

A lot of folks are terrrifed of change, whether that change is large or small in scope. Most of the Hobbits were afraid too and yet try as they might, change came to them anyway. It was at that point that they each had to make a choice: adapt or lose the Shire. I'm glad the rallying cry that burst forth from Merry, Pippin, Frodo, and Sam moved these beseiged hobbits to action.

No, just tired of this "hobbits can do anything" hype. It was Merry and Pippin who rallied the hobbits and they were leading by example, from the front. Frodo didn't fight, he never drew his sword.

[fateHibari]

Hobbits are tiny, in the press and din of battle you wouldn't even be able to see or hear them.

Don't underestimate tiny folk. Size can sometimes work to your advantage.

Closer to home, as in Lord of the Rings: read "The Scouring of the Shire" towards the end of "The Return of the King." When it came time to confront Sharkey's much larger men - larger in size and in numbers - the Hobbits devised a plan. They just didn't rush in pellmell and did whatever. They organized and orchestrated their attacks etc., etc., and if you read said chapter again, you will see how these diminutive but feisty folk outsmarted and beat a rather smug and superior force, sent them running with their tails between their legs.

There's no disputing the outcome of The Battle of Bywater 1419 - you can read it for yourself if you have the books. The hobbits won and reclaimed the Shire and without the help of any big folk. Remember - and here I will again refer to the book - Gandalf even told the returning four hobbits before they parted company : he told them he wasn't going to help them this time. It was theirs to sort out and this they did - gloriously.

It's all in the book: pp 309-335 if you have the Ballantine paperback edition of 1983. It's a short read, but it's still a darned good read.

[fateHibari]

All very stirring on the tiny scale of the Shire but hardly stacks up to the full-scale battles in LOTR, does it? And those are where the image of Captain comes from, having to face whole armies of Orcs and Men rather than just a bunch of poorly-led ruffians. Tolkien gave them a battle they could win by their own efforts but he doesn't portray Merry and Pippin as being in the same league as the great Captains of Men.


No, just tired of this "hobbits can do anything" hype. It was Merry and Pippin who rallied the hobbits and they were leading by example, from the front. Frodo didn't fight, he never drew his sword.

Not every battle needs to be on a gargantuan scale for it to be important in the scheme of things. And it's unfair to discriminate, to label certain areas and peoples of Middle-earth don't matter because they don't do things on the same level of grandeur as say The Battle of Unnumbered Tears or that their troubles are not worth bothering about. Tolkien in his stories has repeatedly illustrated and reminded us that everyone is connected and everyone's part is important to an entire effort.

Again, I invite you to go over the stories if you have the time. They have not lost their ability to engage the reader, even after all this time.

[Radhruin_EU]

Don't underestimate tiny folk. Size can sometimes work to your advantage.

Not when trying to lead people on a battlefield, it doesn't. You might have noticed that Tolkien made Merry and Pippin way taller than they had been to make it more plausible, and other hobbits wouldn't have that.

As for the battle, you're missing the point: it was a low-key, small battle that the hobbits could win by themselves. There's no read-across from that to the full-scale battles of the War of the Ring, which were the real deal and Captain was inspired by the sort of Men who led in those great battles. If the hobbits had had to fight Men who were properly trained and led they wouldn't have been able to win like they did - the book actually says that the ruffians didn't have a leader who knew how to fight a war, which was how they got suckered into an ambush.

The Battle of Bywater was not important in the grand scheme of things, it'd only seem that way to the hobbits (but not to Merry or Pippin, who knew better) and to everyone else it would be an afterthought, if they knew about it at all. Even Saruman's subsequent death would only be a historical footnote because it was miserable.

[ZepherZaner]

My thoughts on everyone's opinion is shut up and stop proving a statement said long ago by a way old man that said if you give anyone anything you will find them complaining about it no matter what it is eventually!!!!!

[Gandolf_TheOld]

My thoughts on everyone's opinion is shut up and stop proving a statement said long ago by a way old man that said if you give anyone anything you will find them complaining about it no matter what it is eventually!!!!!

The proof of the pudding is in the eating.