I Quit

[DoRonRon]

I guess you could trust the player to answer a prompt entering a session asking if they wish to pass on it? They'll have done all the pre-requisites to get there but with one thing and another might be on the umpteenth try, unware of a halo making it impossible, me I'd love the challenge, to a point ofc. But you know my feeling on seeing the same drama sequences over and over and over... and the same npc's joke over and over and over.

[istvana]

Thank you for the explanation. I agree that given the parameters you point out that making session play credit account wide would be a poor use of resources.

I have never suggested this because I like session play - but another alternative is to make them optional. Regardless of whether the account has ever done them. Letting the player simply skip on to the next quest in the chain. While I do not love that answer it is an alternative to what you suggest about making them shorter and simpler.

I do like the idea of eliminating combat pieces or making those shorter and simpler but not necessarily the storytelling portions.

[maartena]

@maartena
Who is paying for that upload? Most of us are likely on Home broadband and fibre deals with at best 1% of that. Any figures for Level 3 hub in the mix I wonder?

I'm paying for it. $80 a month for 1 Gbit/s down, 1 Gbit/s up. I have a fiber cable to roughly 2 meters away from my desktop computers and switches that network up the house. This connection is rock stable, and has been since I got it installed in 2016. As of early 2022 (about 6 months ago) I can upgrade to 2 Gbit/s down and up for $110, or 5 Gbit/s down and up for $180, but I think 1 Gbit/s is more than plenty for now.

Latency to Google (which has a local presence in Los Angeles is about 3ms, and latency to the east coast is no more than about 70 to 80ms depending on location. Inside LOTRO I have a constant ping of about 72-76ms, which perfectly aligns with my fiber internet capabilities of reaching the east coast. (anywhere from 70 to 100 is normal from coast to coast).

I could go cheaper, there is also a 500/500 Mbps option available for $60. But the Gigabit one I have also comes with HBO Max included, which is a $15 value. So I think I found the sweet spot, and 80 bucks a month isn't terrible for what I get.

And no, I never lag because my connection is "flaky" (even on wifi I get 400+ down and 400+ up) but because the Lotro servers are ######. And SSG pretty much admitted over the last year that the lag is on their side and they have engineers working on various things to combat it. How long that is going to take, who knows..... and I don't know for sure if they themselves really know. But it may be a reason why they have been careful in adding more content, because every time they do the lag seems to get worse......

[DoRonRon]

I shall have a pleasant dream tonight.

I would miss the modem connecting though.

42 milliseconds to Amsterdam where the servers were when I bought in. I know it's not the reason but somehow the suggestion we'd be best served with our server in New Jersey scares me to think what diabolical things a Codemasters like team would deliver. Nasty skills going off when bidden, no chance to put the kettle on during a raid boss downing and none of the feel of riding a wild stallion. Grim.

[maartena]

That would be a significant amount of engineering time (and marking quest completion as account-wide is a whole can of worms). I think I much prefer making the existing sessionplays more streamlined and easier to complete, rather than encouraging you to skip them. These days, Sessionplays are a Sometimes Food -- we don't make them as often as we used to do: they're a lot more work than other quests, and attract complaints like a sports car attracts speeding tickets. I think 'The Divided Loyalties of Glurkub the Goblin' was probably my last one for awhile.

MoL

I think one of the issues plaguing the session plays is that you get a set of different skills you may not be used to. Hunters all over sudden need to hack and slash with a dwarf in Moria, or you get no skills at all besides maybe "hobbit sense". This makes sense for certain storylines of course (e.g. Frodo fleeing with the Ring from Boromir), but in other storylines I feel it is better to have more immersion with your own character.

I do almost all of the session plays because they tell a good story, but if you are like me and have about 30 alts...... it does get old doing "we cannot get out" once again. It is for these times that a "skip" option is golden.

If you can't make the account wide suggestion because of engineering and cans of moldy worms and all that, perhaps just implement it for all session plays regardless, and maybe attach a mithril coin value on it or something. 5 mithril coins seems reasonable, same is resetting a daily.

[Faudyen]

I hear ya, absoutly cannot stand session play.

[auximenes]

I have two general complaints about Session Plays, I don't like the reversion to the old default UI sizes and locations and most of the skills are slow to activate and/or reset. It feels clunky, like it's 2007. I understand why the Session Plays are like that but it does detract from the experience for me.

[JERH]

It is developer’s choice. Prelude to moria includes 2 optional session plays that do not interfere with the quest line. You can do them or continue the quests. 21st hall includes another optional session play. Wastes epic quest at Aragon could have been designed with the same optional session play and an alternate choice to continue on the quest line. 7 of the 12 quests in the last 2 chapters of legacy of durin are session play and you have to make multiple “continue on” clicks so you can’t just go away and come back. First time tedious but ok. Second time bite bullet but you get a legendary token. No third time.

The developers choose consciously to force the session play.

[Frisco]

As with every game development question that ends with 'shouldn't be so hard, could it?' the answer is 'yes, it is actually that hard.'

Because it's not just 'did you complete this quest before?' It's 'did another character complete this quest before?' And if the answer is yes, then what do you do? If all you do is ask the question, then the quest gets skipped -- it's as if you've always had that quest completed. In the extreme case, anything that depends on that quest being completed is now completed from day one, which likely wreaks havoc on anything that listens for it: other quests, phasing NPCs, usage requirements on doors and anything else that cares about it.

So now you need to build in a new case: a special quest that you get if Another Character completed the sessionplay quest, one that's exclusive (so you can't get both it and the Original Quest at the same time), and this one acts like a detour that you take if you want the sessionplay quest to become optional if Another Character already did it. So at a minimum, in addition to 'setting a one or zero flag' (which also, by the way: not as simple as that), you're then making a new detour quest for every sessionplay in the game.

It's a good example of Game Designer Brain. It's never as simple as you want it to be, and part of the challenge is thinking through all of the various permutations that you need to make sure it works like you want it to. In addition to all the other work you have to do.

MoL

As someone mentioned above, would making them account deeds be helpful? I know there's that Epic V2B6 quest that requires us to have completed Goblin Slayer and Orc Slayer in Moria. You pick up the quest with the requirement to complete the deeds, the quest checks if you've completed them, and completes the quest if it's done. Granted, that's more complicated than your average quest, but maybe less complex than other methods. It would mean every session play quest would need to be changed from "Complete Instance:" to "Complete Deed:" and then a bunch of new deeds added.

But then there wouldn't be an option to run it again if you wanted, unless it was in the reflecting pool.

[Silmelin]

That would be a significant amount of engineering time (and marking quest completion as account-wide is a whole can of worms). I think I much prefer making the existing sessionplays more streamlined and easier to complete, rather than encouraging you to skip them. These days, Sessionplays are a Sometimes Food -- we don't make them as often as we used to do: they're a lot more work than other quests, and attract complaints like a sports car attracts speeding tickets. I think 'The Divided Loyalties of Glurkub the Goblin' was probably my last one for awhile.

MoL

I like having Sessionplay, it lets us see and experience stories we otherwise wouldn't be able to. As long as they're not such a struggle to complete that many people can't, then I think it's fine. Maybe find out which ones are a problem and tweak the character you play a bit? Like that Sessionplay where you are a Champion (I think it was) with just a few skills. That might perhaps be a bit hard if you have never played a melee class before. Maybe add a few stronger skills, tweak the stats, add some NPC help, or look at the instance itself if something is too much of a struggle?

[maartena]

As with every game development question that ends with 'shouldn't be so hard, could it?' the answer is 'yes, it is actually that hard.'

I think people who have little idea on how complicated the code for a game that has been worked on since 2005 or so can be after 17+ years of development and 15+ years of active game play.

I hear the words "just" and "easy" a lot, as in:

They "just" need to do this or that.
Adding this or doing that is "easy".

Well, although I am not a game coder, I have seen enough code and engineering projects in my life that it is never "just" that simple, and never just that "easy" to do something.

It's like saying: Why don't we "just" redesign the software that operates the auto-pilot in the Boeing 737-Max, that should be "easy".

[maartena]

As someone mentioned above, would making them account deeds be helpful?

I thought of another workaround that might be easier to implement. We already know it is possible to add an ITEM to the game that will auto-complete certain quests, such as the Valars which will auto-complete certain book quests to allow you to progress your character in a certain matter (e.g. legendary items before entering Moria, warsteed riding in Rohan, etc).

One option could be a NPC that sells "quest skip boxes". These boxes can be bought for a few silver or so, and can be used to forward a certain quest, and have a certain pre-req. For instance, this vendor could sell a box that is named "Volume II, Book 3, Chapter 9 - We cannot get out". This item will have a prerequisite of must have completed "Volume II, Book 3, Chapter 8" before it can be used. When you use the item, the epic quest line gets advanced to "Volume II, Book 4, Chapter 1" which is next.

This is of course also some work, as you would need to design a 20-odd boxes for all session plays that exist, but it could be an alternative to having to design something completely different.

The downside might be that the vendor is available to everyone..... and such people might be able to skip things they have never played before. Or you could tie the appearance (or the availability of the boxes) to having completed a certain deed, such as an epic quest deed.

Just some vague ideas that may or may not work at all.....

[Polymachos]

Your lag shouldn't be that bad. I suspect you are using a flaky wifi connection. This can be troubleshooted and probably improved, or you can switch to wired ethernet and probably see a vast, immediate improvement. I'm sorry you are leaving the game, but maybe someone else can benefit from this advice.

Thurallor, I am playing on a LAN cable and a connection that has 60Mbit/sec, and still happen to run into lags that can easily last for half a minute. In one extreme case, it was more than two minutes. Whenever that happens, I try to /loc the area, and even that may be affected by the lag and return a result only when the action resumes. And guess what, in more than 80% of such cases, the server I am currently on turns out to be one of the thirties. Preferably 33, 35, or 38. Some sixties might have issues, too; but I rarely land on one of those.

Maybe it is exactly that? All are sent to the thirties, until they break down under the load?


Greetings, Polymachos

[Vilan]

I've always enjoyed session plays, but I can understand people who don't share that feeling. Adding an option to skip the session sounds fair. Warn players they will also skip XP or gear rewards if they do so.

I'm less sure how people are struggling with learning their new character. Take a few seconds to mouse over your skills. Probably a few that do a single attack, one or two AOEs, maybe a heal skill, done. Walk up to bad guys and mash buttons until they die. Pop your heal if it turns out to be necessary, which is seldom. I can't think of any that are so highly tuned that I need to think about the specific order I use skills.

[Tralfazz]

I have two general complaints about Session Plays, I don't like the reversion to the old default UI sizes and locations and most of the skills are slow to activate and/or reset. It feels clunky, like it's 2007. I understand why the Session Plays are like that but it does detract from the experience for me.

The first thing I do as soon as a Session Play finishes loading is type:
/ui layout load X
...where X is the file name of the layout file I use for most of my characters.

---
If you haven't saved a layout file yet, log in to your favorite character where everything is set up just the way you like, then type:
/ui layout save X
...where X is any file name you want.
---

Then I disable /world, /lff, and /trade.

If one of my mods is in some weird place because it gets its location/size data from a character-specific rather than a global or UI layout setting, I move it over to a corner somewhere that won't bother me.

Then I play the session!

The combat in some sessions can be slow and feel clunky, I agree. Session Play should be about the story rather than any combat, whatever combat there is should be quick and painless (for the player, anyway – the character is another story) and not involve a lot of different skills or any with long cooldowns.

[Polymachos]

Regarding the skip option:

If I remember correctly (haven't encountered it for years), there is a small intro before the actual intro instance, meant for newcomers that don't know how to fight, or move, or what scripted events are. In Breeland it is the escape from the Blackwold prison, in the Shire it is the encounter with spiders on Old Odo's Leaf Farm, and in the Ered Luin it is the attack of Skorgrim for the elves, and the departure of Thorin's company for dwarves. This pre-intro will be skipped if one of the other characters (of the same race) has already done it.

Also, the first character on a server gets an introduction to the shop, by receiving 10 LP which can be used to buy a one-off horn. The others won't.

Maybe the mechanics behind these two events can be adapted to change the session plays in such a way, that you will have to do them once (per server), and after this they become optional. Just my two Eurocent.


Greetings, Polymachos

[Imatia_Narene]

The first thing I do as soon as a Session Play finishes loading is type:
/ui layout load X
...where X is the file name of the layout file I use for most of my characters.

---
If you haven't saved a layout file yet, log in to your favorite character where everything is set up just the way you like, then type:
/ui layout save X
...where X is any file name you want.
---

Then I disable /world, /lff, and /trade.

If one of my mods is in some weird place because it gets its location/size data from a character-specific rather than a global or UI layout setting, I move it over to a corner somewhere that won't bother me.

Then I play the session!

The combat in some sessions can be slow and feel clunky, I agree. Session Play should be about the story rather than any combat, whatever combat there is should be quick and painless (for the player, anyway – the character is another story) and not involve a lot of different skills or any with long cooldowns.

Excellent idea. I do that for new characters I make. Didn't think it would work in session play because of the old UI. I'll check it out next time. I always grumpily spent 5 or ten minutes moving stuff around on my screen and and enlarging the the quickslot bars and text manually.

[Plidak]

No.

There is the problem. Your internet is too fast.

[Froyo_K_Baggins]

/ui layout load X

I also hate SP, and want to support what Tralfazz said. That's the first I do starting any. It still stinks, but I can see the toolbar.

[lefty2022]

Well OP, at least you haven't been playing since launch and then had your account hacked while you were away only to have SSG come back and say it's your fault and refuse to assist. Years of spending money on the game and that's the customer treatment.

So, it could always be worse ... :/

[whisper.earendil]

I agree with this.

Make me do it once? Fine, I am in the story, and I experience it! Good stuff, and some session plays are briliant!
Make me do it twice? Eh, okay, but we've been here before and I know the story. Can I skip it?

They probably don't have the "tech" for it, but once you have completed a session play, it should be marked as completed accountwide, and when you get to it on another character...... you should get a dialog box that says: "This session play was done on (date here) by (character name here). Do you wish to skip? (YES) (NO)"

Click nope, and you enter the session play as normal.
Click yes and it will complete the associated quest, and will bestow you the objective you get for completing it and moving on in the quest line.

This will give the player the choice to do them for every character, or to skip them when they have been done already.

SO much love and support for this idea right here.

But also, there IS a lag in session play. It's not... necessarily the lag I experience everywhere else.

It's a skill lag. I hit a button. I expect the skill to go do its thing. It does not. I sit there waiting impatiently for my session play character to DO anything as the mobs continue to whale on them. I hit the buttons some more. FINALLY a skill goes off.

And the skills we're allowed to use, nine times out of ten they hit like a wet noodle, which takes forever for the session to complete, and some of them have cooldowns that are just frustratingly and utterly ridiculous.

My session play character should scale with my stats. I hit things with most of my skills for 4-17k or more depending on the skill. Why is my super OP ranger or my *noldorin warrior* hitting for less than 1k? Yeesh. (editing to add that these stats are based on a character in session plays from level 86 to 102, people of higher level probably hit for more)

[SniperCT]

As with every game development question that ends with 'shouldn't be so hard, could it?' the answer is 'yes, it is actually that hard.'

Because it's not just 'did you complete this quest before?' It's 'did another character complete this quest before?' And if the answer is yes, then what do you do? If all you do is ask the question, then the quest gets skipped -- it's as if you've always had that quest completed. In the extreme case, anything that depends on that quest being completed is now completed from day one, which likely wreaks havoc on anything that listens for it: other quests, phasing NPCs, usage requirements on doors and anything else that cares about it.

So now you need to build in a new case: a special quest that you get if Another Character completed the sessionplay quest, one that's exclusive (so you can't get both it and the Original Quest at the same time), and this one acts like a detour that you take if you want the sessionplay quest to become optional if Another Character already did it. So at a minimum, in addition to 'setting a one or zero flag' (which also, by the way: not as simple as that), you're then making a new detour quest for every sessionplay in the game.

It's a good example of Game Designer Brain. It's never as simple as you want it to be, and part of the challenge is thinking through all of the various permutations that you need to make sure it works like you want it to. In addition to all the other work you have to do.

MoL

I love the nitty gritty technical explanations, keep it up!

SO much love and support for this idea right here.

But also, there IS a lag in session play. It's not... necessarily the lag I experience everywhere else.

It's a skill lag. I hit a button. I expect the skill to go do its thing. It does not. I sit there waiting impatiently for my session play character to DO anything as the mobs continue to whale on them. I hit the buttons some more. FINALLY a skill goes off.

And the skills we're allowed to use, nine times out of ten they hit like a wet noodle, which takes forever for the session to complete, and some of them have cooldowns that are just frustratingly and utterly ridiculous.

My session play character should scale with my stats. I hit things with most of my skills for 4-17k or more depending on the skill. Why is my super OP ranger or my *noldorin warrior* hitting for less than 1k? Yeesh. (editing to add that these stats are based on a character in session plays from level 86 to 102, people of higher level probably hit for more)

I think if I actually felt stronger in a lot of these session plays I'd enjoy them a lot more. I love the story, non-combat ones the best, actually, in large part because of that.

[Hallandil]

That would be a significant amount of engineering time (and marking quest completion as account-wide is a whole can of worms). I think I much prefer making the existing sessionplays more streamlined and easier to complete, rather than encouraging you to skip them. These days, Sessionplays are a Sometimes Food -- we don't make them as often as we used to do: they're a lot more work than other quests, and attract complaints like a sports car attracts speeding tickets. I think 'The Divided Loyalties of Glurkub the Goblin' was probably my last one for awhile.

MoL

That's probably one of the biggest non-answers you've ever given on these forums.

Regardless of whether SSG continues to "use" a system or not, they still exist in the game as someone who levels from 1 to 140 and has to experience them whilst completing the epic, landscape content and storylines that you yourself placed in the game up to a decade ago.

I get that you have some weird obsession with ensuring that players experience your "creative vision" of Lord of the Rings but it's coming at a massive detriment to the gameplay.

If anyone at SSG actually CARED about making the levelling process more streamlined, then level 65-105 would have considerably more quality of life updates outside of the epic story. The broken crafting recipes, missing items, out of date instance/stats on gear give a strong indication that your process of "streamlining" is really just a push to purchase the newest Valar.

Look I get it, some players of this game for some reason will pay hand-over-foot to skip this section of the game without question and that's the niche audience that funds the game.

Just don't expect to have your comments about artistic integrity taken seriously when there's that gaping hole in the game to begin with.

[Meshuggenah]

I suspect it's a matter of the straw that broke the camels back.

General frustration at the state of the game combined with the natural burn out after playing for too long. If it wasn't session play it'd be something else.

If anyone at SSG actually CARED about making the levelling process more streamlined, then level 65-105 would have considerably more quality of life updates outside of the epic story. The broken crafting recipes, missing items, out of date instance/stats on gear give a strong indication that your process of "streamlining" is really just a push to purchase the newest Valar..

Spoken by somebody who hasn't the faintest idea how much time and resources it takes to redevelop a decade worth of content in an MMO.

[Froyo_K_Baggins]

Spoken by somebody who hasn't the faintest idea how much time and resources it takes to redevelop a decade worth of content in an MMO.

Spoken by somebody who hasn't the faintest idea how much customer service matters. Me? I've been in tech for decades. I know how much it takes, I know that other games have worked hard to update core code and the servers, and I know that everything I see indicates that SSG isn't interested in doing that.