The State of the Captain

[Borophir]

My two cents on what Red Line Captains could use to be a better class:

• They can use a bit of an overall DPS boost in both Solo and Group play by making the stat contributions to Physical Mastery from Might equal to that of Champions, Guardians and Brawlers.
• Motivating Speech/Improved Motivating Speech's buff duration needs to be longer than five minutes. Either a 30 min. or a 60 min. duration will work best while keeping it as a buff.
• The AOE skills, Routing Cry and Pressing Attack, can use a bit of a boost.
• Telling Mark can use that extra +5% Incoming Damage back.
• Attack animation speeds can be a bit faster, but also the cooldowns on Cutting Attack/Improved Cutting Attack and Shadow's Lament can be cut in half from 20 sec. to 10 sec. cooldown; which should make the rotation more fluid and line up with Battle Shout more efficiently.

I only solo nowadays, and have all classes, and captain is the worst (I mean, slowest) of them all. Comparing champion who just shing-shing and keep going, it takes A LOT more time for captain to clear some orc camp. Nowadays even burglar is faster, thanks to AoE DPS skills.

So red captain needs a lot of love, also one or two more AoE DPS skills, as we rarely fight only one enemy but 2-3 (or more) at time.

Try using Cutting Attack on a second target and Grave Wound afterwards to spread the Bleed DoT if you find yourself surrounded by more than two mobs.

the captain is meant to be slow and bursty, just to let you know. If you don't like this, then you shouldn't play captain. The slowness and burst is what has always been part of the captain, its part of its image (even now I think it's toomuch attack speed already)

Slow and bursty, yes. Slow and clunky... no. The overall rotation, however, should flow steadily.

[furtim]

So with the Minstrel rework on Bullroarer, it seems clear now that the future of LOTRO is classes having two specializations and one "passive" tree. Which is going to be controversial, inevitably, but it does seem like a sensible choice given that most classes barely have one viable spec, let alone three...

I think I'm going to make the case that, when this change comes around to the Captain, it's red line that should go. That might seem counter-intuitive, since blue line is unfashionable at the moment while red and yellow are mostly coherent and in-demand, but here's the argument: A) Captain has never filled a "DPS" role in groups, so a DPS specialization doesn't make conceptual sense, and B) Shadow's Lament would become a core class skill, or at least one that blue and yellow Captains could trivially invest in, which would fill out the rotations of other specs, especially Yellow.

The big question marks are Blade-Brother and Relentless Attack: let's be honest, these are the primary appeal of red line, and if you gave either of the other specs access to them they'd never use their own unique versions. So what to do? For Relentless Attack, I would propose removing the Outgoing Healing buff and then making it a core Captain skill. For Focus and On Guard, simply move their triggers from using Sure Strike while Battle-Readied to using Sure Strike while Battle-Hardened. Blade-Brother is trickier. To Arms, Inspire and the -Brother buff itself provide the same stats in different proportions... perhaps it's time to simply condense them all back into one skill. Instead, move the distinction between Blade, Shield, and Song onto the Call skills, which are the ones with a clear identity between the lines anyway. Let us get multiple Call skills via traits and make them mutually exclusive on a shared cooldown, so we have some tactical choice -- 90% of the time the correct choice will be to use Blade-Brother over the spec versions, but it's still more choice than we get now.

Since our "specialized" DPS was never special enough to fill a DPS slot (as opposed to the dedicated "Captain" slot that we happened to be in red line while filling), it makes more sense to move our group buff DPS to core skills while letting our other specs opt in to supplementing their personal DPS via the new "passive" red line. Why not de-specialise either Blue or Yellow instead? Simple: Yellow, while the traits themselves are a bit of a mess, is a valid group role that we successfully fill right now, while Blue, if it became passive, simply wouldn't be used any more apart from one or two particularly good traits like Blood of Numenor, Revealing Mark, and Courageous Convocation.

Anyway, I'm obviously not (and shouldn't be) in charge of anything, but I just wanted to provide a little food for thought.

[auximenes]

So with the Minstrel rework on Bullroarer, it seems clear now that the future of LOTRO is classes having two specializations and one "passive" tree. Which is going to be controversial, inevitably, but it does seem like a sensible choice given that most classes barely have one viable spec, let alone three...
I think I'm going to make the case that, when this change comes around to the Captain, it's red line that should go. That might seem counter-intuitive, since blue line is unfashionable at the moment while red and yellow are mostly coherent and in-demand, but here's the argument: A) Captain has never filled a "DPS" role in groups, so a DPS specialization doesn't make conceptual sense, and B) Shadow's Lament would become a core class skill, or at least one that blue and yellow Captains could trivially invest in, which would fill out the rotations of other specs, especially Yellow.

/unsigned

As a Red primarily solo Captain since the dawn of this game I wholeheartedly disagree with the suggestion that the Red line spec should be removed. Why bother killing it off when it is and always has been functional? The three trees work fine for Captains; the Red tree just needs a few tweaks to make it more in line with other Red tree specs.

[WeirdJedi]

As a Red primarily solo Captain since the dawn of this game I wholeheartedly disagree with the suggestion that the Red line spec should be removed. Why bother killing it off when it is and always has been functional? The three trees work fine for Captains; the Red tree just needs a few tweaks to make it more in line with other Red tree specs.

I agree. Even if they decided to remove a specialization, it would be around the tree that is least used - blue. To remove red would only hinder the remaining amount of damage we have left, leaving a lot of people not wanting to level up captains. Besides, every group I've known of most definitely request both red and yellow captains. I don't see anyone requesting blue captains. Hopefully, they will allow us to continue specializing in all three trees as we have three individual roles with gear associated exclusively for tanking, damage, and healing. A little more work for healing and you might just see us be in a position to help our minstrel buddies.

[Neinda]

I agree. Even if they decided to remove a specialization, it would be around the tree that is least used - blue. To remove red would only hinder the remaining amount of damage we have left, leaving a lot of people not wanting to level up captains. Besides, every group I've known of most definitely request both red and yellow captains. I don't see anyone requesting blue captains. Hopefully, they will allow us to continue specializing in all three trees as we have three individual roles with gear associated exclusively for tanking, damage, and healing. A little more work for healing and you might just see us be in a position to help our minstrel buddies.

I think red line for the cappy would be the best line to remove. The cappy in red line has an unfair buffing advantage over other classes as things now stand. The red line buffs could be incorporated into the yellow/blue lines in the same manner buffs are being added to the mini red/blue lines. It would be consistent and make sense. It would also bring back the healing captain and push more players into that type of specialization once again. Consistency across class lines and specializations would be a positive change and not give one class an advantage over others. The cappy used to supplement mini heals back in the day. With the current changes to the minstrel class that supplement may be needed again. Having more blue line captains with minstrel like buffs would make the most sense and the supplemental heals and buffs would go a long way to help keep minis in group content.

[Arabani]

It is pretty clear that many people want to play Blue Line, to be a real healer. Red is defninetley the most boring and "obsolete" line. I mean it only has buffs, and they are the only reason Red Captain is wanted. Noone cares what a captain does as long as certain buffs and debuffs are maintained. Give these buffs to Blue or Yellow and noone will ever notice the difference.

Though I still think that in case of Captain, Beorning and Rune Keeper all 3 lines must be kept.

[auximenes]

All this talk about what people want from the Captain in a group, that's what Yellow line is for. Red is Offense. Blue is Defense/Heal/Tank. Leave Red line alone, every trait tree doesn't have to revolve around the contributions to a group.

[hfe]

Honestly, the captain should be able to do all three, at once... that's the jack of all trades. Trait trees have ruined the captain.

[Khluzainn]

It is pretty clear that many people want to play Blue Line, to be a real healer. Red is defninetley the most boring and "obsolete" line. I mean it only has buffs, and they are the only reason Red Captain is wanted. Noone cares what a captain does as long as certain buffs and debuffs are maintained. Give these buffs to Blue or Yellow and noone will ever notice the difference.

Though I still think that in case of Captain, Beorning and Rune Keeper all 3 lines must be kept.

Really stupid comment. There is a group of people who want blue to be viable yes. Red is super required though. If Captain is to ever do moors or solo content ever red will always be required. There is no blue line healer that will ever have the dps and dps buffs included on top of its healing. Out of all of the classes in the game captain is the last one to get its specs reduced. As it is now Red and Yellow are REQUIRED for most end game content. If any spec needs to go its blue and thats obvious. Having offhealing is somting red and yellow already bring to content. A blue line that just buffs that healing makes way more sense than giving viable tank and healing specs the best dps buffs in the game LOL. I mean jesus think about it for second.....

[1Asy1]

Really stupid comment. There is a group of people who want blue to be viable yes. Red is super required though. If Captain is to ever do moors or solo content ever red will always be required. There is no blue line healer that will ever have the dps and dps buffs included on top of its healing. Out of all of the classes in the game captain is the last one to get its specs reduced. As it is now Red and Yellow are REQUIRED for most end game content. If any spec needs to go its blue and thats obvious. Having offhealing is somting red and yellow already bring to content. A blue line that just buffs that healing makes way more sense than giving viable tank and healing specs the best dps buffs in the game LOL. I mean jesus think about it for second.....

I agree, I'd like to see the blue line dropped altogether and a passive line created so we can select other buffs, not necessarily healing-related. Healing in Lotro is already massively out of hand, if we had proper healing meters in this game, we'd be able to see the majority is over-heal.

[NailFelagund]

Why delete lines that actually are fun to play (blue and red), and keep the dullest of them all (yellow)?

[Hierona]

Why delete lines that actually are fun to play (blue and red), and keep the dullest of them all (yellow)?

In my opinion red is the dullest. No real gameplay till ob goes up again.

Think blue should be the passive tho. Not really usable atm and both red and blue put a good amount of points into it.
* Bring Rousing Cry into red line, same with blood of Numenor.
* Revealing Mark to yellow, same with Reform the Lines and Valiant strike to get a bit more fellowship healing on yellow.
* And Shield of the Dunedain to blue.

And above all up the damage of red captain. Leveling is atrocious and in raids the captain can't really keep up with the other damage dealers.

[Zaheer]

anyone claiming blue should be dropped and prefers to go afk in yellow in hardened state should delete their captain and go play champ instead, cya

and I have to be honest, the amount of idiotic statements in the past comments is outright shocking to me, people unable to grasp the identity of the class and having absolutely zero clue of what they're talking about.

[Hierona]

anyone claiming blue should be dropped and prefers to go afk in yellow in hardened state should delete their captain and go play champ instead, cya

and I have to be honest, the amount of idiotic statements in the past comments is outright shocking to me, people unable to grasp the identity of the class and having absolutely zero clue of what they're talking about.

Identity of the class? It is about being a fun class. Blue is not usable anywhere near as yellow and red so if they drop one line, it should be this one. For my part red gets unspecable, but seeing as that one is actually usefull, I couldn't see that happening.

[ertr]

Identity of the class? It is about being a fun class. Blue is not usable anywhere near as yellow and red so if they drop one line, it should be this one. For my part red gets unspecable, but seeing as that one is actually usefull, I couldn't see that happening.

Why should they drop any of the lines?
Each line corresponds to a specific role and are usable for that role. If the blue line is used less than red or yellow, it is just because it is currently underpowered and not because of any inherent problem with the line.

[NailFelagund]

In my opinion red is the dullest. No real gameplay till ob goes up again.

Think blue should be the passive tho. Not really usable atm and both red and blue put a good amount of points into it.
* Bring Rousing Cry into red line, same with blood of Numenor.
* Revealing Mark to yellow, same with Reform the Lines and Valiant strike to get a bit more fellowship healing on yellow.
* And Shield of the Dunedain to blue.

And above all up the damage of red captain. Leveling is atrocious and in raids the captain can't really keep up with the other damage dealers.

There is gameplay, they just need to adjust the dmg. You are buffing allies, throwing banners, rezzing if necessary, throwing WoC when needed, etc. Yellow, on the other hand, is boring, as you don't want to switch between the two states and most of the skills you use are fillers.

I mean, maybe they don't have to delete any lines, but I cannot see why blue and red have to go just because the skills don't hit hard enough.

[ertr]

All this talk about what people want from the Captain in a group, that's what Yellow line is for. Red is Offense. Blue is Defense/Heal/Tank. Leave Red line alone, every trait tree doesn't have to revolve around the contributions to a group.

Wrong, wrong, wrong.

The main role of a Captain is as a buffer. That has been the case ever since the dawn of time (or since LOTRO was first released anyway)
It has always been a group-oriented class, with mediocre performance in solo play.
The trait lines help determine what to buff, and what individual traits will be strenghtened.
Yellow for tanking
Blue for healing
Red for damage dealing
Note that the line chosen makes not only the captain herself, but the whole group better at those roles

Currently the Red line is the one most wanted due to its contributions to the group, and Yellow is also popular because it makes the Captain into a strong tank

[rikufan]

Thanks for making this post! Been waiting on Captain changes before I come back to my favorite class and hoping this post leads to some!

Starting off, Captain damage/landscape effectiveness is simply WAY TOO LOW. Classes such as Minstrel, Lore Master, and Burglar have been updated to have much better landscape experiences while also being able to provide group support, it's time for Cappy to receive the same treatment.

Blue Line is a very fun spec, but it's lacking in a couple spots. The reliance on HOTS and lack of instant burst heals makes them an entirely support healer, which is fine but those HOTS aren't substantial enough to feel impactful in actually difficult content. Adding a couple burst heals and amping up the HOTS a bit would be great and hopefully give people the choice of picking blue and not just red 24/7 for group content.

Yellow Line currently feels very clunky and bad. They've always had a problem with a lack of abilities, making their rotation feel boring. More recently, they've been nerfed very hard and their problems have only gotten worse. I'm not a yellow captain player and have never been but from what I've read, more abilities and a walk back on a few of their recent nerfs would do the trick.

Heralds, compared to Lore Master pets, feel kinda worthless. I don't expect the banner heralds to do good landscape damage because of their group buffs, but the archer herald at least needs to do a lot more damage when scaling into the higher levels.

There is more that people have listed but these are my main concerns, thanks for the post and thanks for reading

[Swanee]

Without diving into the trait line fight, I have 2 things I’d like to see improved. First, as already been said MANY times; Greatly increase the up-time on Motivating Speech. 30-60 minutes please. Second, this has turned into a game of axes and swords. Make Halberds viable as weapons. The animations already suck, but they also lack of a good bonus effect asking them irrelevant. Same could be said for hammers, and to some extent clubs and daggers. However; halberds are tied specifically to captains, so why not make them worth using?

[infinitewhimsy]

I would expect blue line to be removed for Captains. The threat modifier from yellow is too important and it's obvious which is the least used trait line currently.

That being said I think Shield of the Dunedain needs to become self targetable or available in any tree. Maybe make it half duration if used on yourself.

Another way to enter Battle Readied State while in Yellow would also be nice, but at that point you should probably change a lot of yellow skills to actually generate meaningful amounts of threat. Currently Captains tank by copying threat with their force taunts, their actual attacks and heals contribute totally negligible threat.

[Eeshen]

Please up the healing HoTs of Blue and its role as a raid healer/buffer.
I love the role of a melee healer, but the heals are currently not sufficient for higher tier raids.

Give a reason for raids to want a blue captain.

Thank you.

[TheNakedNinjah]

I think it is going to be difficult to keep the Captian to be a jack of all trades while also stripping away one of their trait lines.
I feel dropping the red line would make Captains really slow (and possibly very boring) to level. This means we'd be left with dropping either yellow or blue unless the goal is to sell more Valars .

Personally I think dropping yellow would make the most sense, it'd be hard to drop blue because I think Cappy tanks shouldn't have access to such a powerful rez. I think the double rez should only be available when traiting blue (and blue needs some improvements!)
Plus Captains are supposed to be a support class, I'd like to see their yellow line repurposed to more of a buffing line, maybe with some off tanking capabilities thrown in but I'd like to see a heavier focus on buffing the group as that's what Captains do.
Another argument for dropping yellow is Captains are primarily used as tanks at the moment due to the utility they bring, if that utility is stripped away then Captain tanks would probably begin to fall out of favour.


Though honestly I think I'd prefer Captain (and the Beorning) to retain all 3 of their trait lines as they're classes that can fulfill every role so you wouldn't be dropping just a trait line, you'd potentially be removing a role from that class.

Some changes I'd like to see if all 3 trait lines are kept:

- Captains can only rez in combat if traited blue, Tanks shouldn't provide utility this strong.

- Battle Hardened is updated to trait line specific buffs:
In Red: Damage boost (self and/or group?) only
In Yellow: Damage reduction only
In Blue: Outgoing healing only

I don't think Captain tanks/dps should have such a high healing output gained from the outgoing healing buff

- Shield of the Dúnedain can be used on other players but has a global CD (similar to how the new Minstrel's Call to Greatness works on bullroarer, where it can only be applied once every 2m)


They're just the first things that come to mind but there's plenty of others I'm sure.

[Neinda]

Please up the healing HoTs of Blue and its role as a raid healer/buffer.
I love the role of a melee healer, but the heals are currently not sufficient for higher tier raids.

Give a reason for raids to want a blue captain.

Thank you.

A viable blue cappy again would be nice. I stopped playing mine around level 75 or so when blue line was fading and yellow was on the rise.

A yellow cappy is pretty powerful these days. You can run some of the instances with just a yellow cappy managing the jobs of tanking, healing and rezzing. Probably a bit much. Even the bear cannot do all 3 at once.

[Zaheer]

A viable blue cappy again would be nice. I stopped playing mine around level 75 or so when blue line was fading and yellow was on the rise.

A yellow cappy is pretty powerful these days. You can run some of the instances with just a yellow cappy managing the jobs of tanking, healing and rezzing. Probably a bit much. Even the bear cannot do all 3 at once.

Yellow powerful as a tank? No, as having a massive amount load of utility? Yes, see my earlier post

Jump to quote by pressing the arrow ^

[HerrDave]

...Plus Captains are supposed to be a support class...

Well said!
From the Class Card:
"Captains are armoured melee fighters and masters of buffing; skills that enhance allies. They may summon a Herald companion to fight by their side, ensuring they always have an ally to buff. They can also Mark foes, giving benefits to all who attack them. In Fellowships, a Captain supports his or her allies with healing and buffs, while still dealing respectable damage."

Right now,
- Blue Captains, besides putting out absolutely no damage, have their healing drop off a cliff at level 105+
- Red Captains, as someone accurately pointed out, are only brought for Oathbreaker's Shame and the banner (But because they are the only option that does damage, they also double as 'the landscape spec')
- Yellow Captains are consistently taken to stand toe-to-toe with Raid Bosses over Guardians

As a Captain who has played since SoA, I feel we shouldn't be helpless or immortal.
The way I see it, since Yellow Captains have to invest to heavily into Blue in order to reliably tank, their toolkit should be merged with Blue
Red should receive some serious Damage or Herald buffs to make it feel like you aren't being punished for choosing Captain when landscaping

In a perfect world I think it should be something like this:
- Blue: Healer with a Sword & Shield, meh damage but a great boon for the group's survivability (Combat Resurrection, Mitigation, Morale Regen)
- Red: Classic Halberdier/Greatweapon, solid damage and provides great damage buffs for the group (Attack Rate, Mastery, Power Regen)
- Yellow: Sword & Shield or Greatweapon, provides great utility buffs (Motivating Speech improvements, Make Haste breaks snares, etc) and Herald options for the Captain (Leader of Men, after all)

Note*
I think that it'd be okay that Captain's damage-per-hit wasn't all that great, IF Heralds/Archers are buffed enough to pick up the slack
When I first got my Archer, I was thrilled - not only did he do comparable damage to me, I would even have fun racing him to see which of us could kill our targets faster.
As it stands now, Heralds fight with pool noodles and Archers fire cardboard tubes.
I'd dearly like to see that change, if Captains' damage must remain at the bottom of the barrel.