Goodenough Clan of Brandywine
Areyekuwe on LOTRO wiki
The Shire on Discord Discord server: The Shire
Goodenough Clan of Brandywine
Areyekuwe on LOTRO wiki
The Shire on Discord Discord server: The Shire
Rank 15 Minstrel, Rank 12 Rune-keeper, Rank 7 Champion
Rank 13 Weaver, Rank 11 Blackarrow, Rank 10 Reaver, Rank 10 Stalker, Rank 10 Defiler, Rank 7 Warleader
Please keep this civil.
There is no reason for devolving what should be a good discussion into something provocative and goading.
Well people and our differences are the reason.
There is another reason, that is a complete hopelessness at the pvp update process.
You yourself in several places said that it is slow in incremental. But now come up with new stances and completely reworked classes, all at once.
Here is one reply I completely agree with:
It feels like we have a good number of small things that are just broken.
Fixing them one by one or like several at a time would be a good direction.
After all we can see that yet again we got a dev that means well but does not remember the game all that well and refuses to do certain changes because they are too hard to do.
In your case we have your stream on top of things where you do say things that are meant to be a wake up moment for all the creeps as well. Like pvmp was not built to last, like creeps were not ever meant to be in any balance with freeps and so on. And how these demands and ideas are hard to work on.
Or, we can have a forum pvp with people that are pros at that. Because there is not much left to do?
Goodenough Clan of Brandywine
Areyekuwe on LOTRO wiki
The Shire on Discord Discord server: The Shire
I like this idea! In fact the armour value debuff seems to be a nerf judging from the OP. Mitigation debuff would be neat, both phys and tact mits perhaps? Armour mostly effects physical
My brother in Eru which one is it?
Is it "pvmp isn't being worked on fast enough, devs don't care about pvmp or understand how to fix it"
or is it "pvmp is being worked on too fast? We're getting too many changes and this is bad!"
Seriously, people like you can never be satisfied.
It's unproductive to attack the dev who is actually working on pvmp. Period. instead of that, perhaps consider providing something relevant to the table.
And it was established to get broader changes out there first that will make a difference instead of spending countless update schedules on small, incremental changes. At least we have things to show for it, these changes are great, the most realest thing we've seen to actual creep love in like 7 years and you're stuck up on the smallest of things.
So quit your whining, meat's back on the menu and you're acting like a vegan about all of this.
Last edited by Askelin; Aug 23 2022 at 07:42 PM.
Leader of the Mitey Worriers (Laurelin)
Purveyors of premier meats and vegan substitutes since 26/12/17
Great, much needed changes. Thank you.
Are the fixes for non-VIP freeps not being able to use the map to Glan Vraig, not being able to be rezzed properly etc. also coming with this particular update?
I did not say these things in that way.
I believe that PvMP did not get a steady dev for a long time with steady underlined.
As a result, what happened over the years many devs would step in and do a bunch of "lets turn this part of pvmp upside down" type of changes.
Then for years a number of people would beg for reverse of these changes and it would not get done.
Examples: Auto flips, move of OPs and war camps.
------------------------------------------------------------
Orion came in months ago.
1st thing we knew off him in game is when he took out a 1m map from the game, for new characters. Considering how this was a launch of the free pvmp and many made new characters, this was a bad welcome. He still telling us that it was a bug, or it was not put in by him.
And simple question like this: "why were you taking your valuable time to work on that?" (that which is not broken) was never asked. On our server it was a big discussion among new players or people making new classes.
-Things like this do discourage hopes. And yes it was in version notes.
So now he is mentioning that there is update to OP bonuses and some other bonuses and when asked a direct question a kabuki dance of deflection starts. That combined with professional trolls coming in to take whole discussion personal, instead of talking about issues at all. -Makes for some interesting mess.
Example of the question:
"There is more then one benefit that each side can get from the 2 relics. Total number can be counted as 7 benefits and possibly as 9! (freep side has a ton and some have tiers that stack??) Why not get rid of them and rework the whole of monster play effects associated with relics?
-Like do freeps need another +5 to damage buff?? Creeps never got that much.
But it felt that our dev did not right away get on board with the idea, for whatever reason.
To make it absolutely clear: I was never for large scale rework of everything. not this: "pvmp isn't being worked on fast enough, devs don't care about pvmp or understand how to fix it"
For years there were skills that got abandoned, that healed power, I picked a few and made a long thread with pictures on this same forum. I actually work for this: "perhaps consider providing something relevant to the table."
-So, if forums is the table, I am ful time employee here, working overtime, Sir.
Quoted above and I like these:
- Give creeps 6 more corruption slots.
- Buff those corruptions so creep stats match the heavily stat-bloated freeps.
- Re-work audacity. This is a balancing tool already built into the game and yet you aren't using it to balance the game. I just cannot grasp the thinking behind this.
- Where is the in-combat rez for defilers, where is the in-combat heal for wargs to make them something other than an all-out glass-cannon? Name me one freep class that cannot heal in combat.
Add to above:
- Remove auto flips.
- Move war camps closer to TA.
- Continue working with existing skills fixing abandoned skills (this is coming along, but on a much, much larger scale)
Add to this marshal chests in GV that were abandoned and when Orion was asked about it he said it is not on the list? (I do not even play freep, but abandoning things like this, not cool)
Last edited by Areyekuwe; Aug 23 2022 at 08:49 PM.
Goodenough Clan of Brandywine
Areyekuwe on LOTRO wiki
The Shire on Discord Discord server: The Shire
Hey Orion,
First of all, thank you for the changes, I'm excited to see how they will all play out.
I think in general things will have a good effect on pvp, but there's a couple concerns on my end.
Overall state of creeps:
Defence stacking on healing classes tends to be very overpowered, I know on my server (Evernight) there are a couple of creep players who understand how to build, and often play a defiler/WL combination.
I did some stats crunching on it, and tested out the build with the defi/WL combo.
Trying to keep this somewhat short:
-you have incoming damage and mitigation which greatly affect each other, if you don't stack on one of the two you'll suffer exponentially more damage.
-by default on maxed out creep classes, regardless of rank, you can have -56% incoming damage on permanently (audacity with pot = 42%, food = 4% and tome of defence = 10%.
this means that if you stack physical mits, you can get near cap stats on both defiler/WL with all their buffs up, including WL aura and the Point-Defence skill and the commendation armour pot. turning into roughly 60%-65% physical mits.
Combine these 2 stats and you'll suffer 44% of 35%-40% damage. I know you can debuff relatively well to counteract this, however in reality this isn't done very often.
Some classes have passive penetration (hunter, champ and whatever else), and some classes have built in +inc dmg debuffs (like OBs). these work perfectly to take down targets, but are often limited to only 1 target, sometimes even on a large CD.
On that note some classes don't have either of those choices, rendering them near useless against players who trait their corruptions well.
Side-note, one of the most important freep debuff classes Lore-master is under quite heavy pressure in pvp, they often have no chance to escape and are killed off very easily even in big group situations, rendering their debuffs very ineffective because.. well... they're dead
I'd really like you to look into this so you can see how severe the impact of this can actually be, because I've seen 15 freeps fail to kill a non-supported defi/WL combo in a 10 minute fight...
That said creeps are currently very underwhelming if they trait anything else, so I'm happy to see buffs for them!
Going into some more specific class changes now.
Reaver:
Overall very happy with all of the changes with 2 concerns.
I think we've seen a lot of negative feedback on the state of champ sprint (should 100% be nerfed in some way, it's my main class and while it's fun, it's clearly very overpowered).
I feel like reaver charge is going into a similar direction, but they clearly need some sort of sprint skill since every time a large group of freeps counter pushes, reavers are just stuck in the middle of them while the rest of the creeps just runs off except for a few stragglers. I suggest changing it into a lower % speed, for slightly longer duration, on a longer CD (let's say 20s with 1m CD with immunity to slows/roots?)
It shouldn't be an escape jail free card (like champ), but it should allow them to not be completely stuck every time they go in and fail to go out before the freeps counter push.
Second is the miss chance, I agree with others, keep it between 20-30%, 40% just seems to be too much imo.
Defiler:
Generally happy, but I think the class has too strong heals, but mostly in situations of lag where HoTs excel they're completely unkillable or the previous inc dmg/mit combination making them too tanky for their base heals.
Love the idea of stances and very happy to see more buff skills in that healing line, think it will be awesome.
Only problem is once again with the incoming damage boon buff, if you stack that up with the other incoming dmg/mits build, it will reduce damage by a LOT more than probably intended. (I'll get back at this when I get to spider).
Also think gooey gourd is too OP at 100% induction duration, small buff is ok, max up to 40% I'd say. if you get targeted by a raid you have no chance to even react as a healer with this on, you'll be completely reliant on other classes and not your own skill, as you will instantly have like 10-20 effects to cleanse, which is impossible.
Warg/stalker:
Generally very happy with the buffs.
I think howl of the unnerving mits debuff is way too strong, unless it's somehow not a flat 50% debuff.
Overall flayer is likely gonna be in a very good spot, I'm just worried about shadow.
Shadow DPS warg is very hard to balance I think, it falls off dramatically after freeps get any sort of defence in a patch.
Either they kill the target in their first 2 stuns, or they are too squishy to do anything and die within seconds.
With the recent grace-period change, the stun duration has been dramatically reduced for shorter CCs, making warg have even less of an opening to do their dps.
I'm not sure how you should balance this, but I wanted to give some personal ideas about it because it's a class I love, but feel has little impact in pvp these days.
BA:
Great change, think it would be fair to let the corruption last 20-25 seconds, 4.5s build up for only 15s buff during which you can't move seems pretty underwhelming.
Think they could have some more damage on some low dmg skills to make rotation feel better, but good change overall!
WL:
Good changes, their heals are very strong if you manage to insta cast everything, I don't feel like a finesse buff is needed, cuz it will make the class too easy.
If you build the inc dmg/mits build you're so tanky, and with your incredibly high base healing, you're too tough to get down in combination with a defi.
Solo side I don't have enough of an idea what to do, but who would wanna play solo WL....
Reason why I think it's ok to have them get their fears resisted is that it's a bit skill based like this.
Some freep classes have much lower resistance than others, worse gear also impacts this, so it comes down to target priority so you can keep your insanely good insta heals rolling.
it's not like you need your WL to target the RAT too much anyway imo.
Spider:
Overall happy to see some spider buffs, but they're a very skill dependent class.
I think people who understand interactions of debuffs will do 20x better than someone who doesn't, because they have incredible control and debuffs.
Problems:
Miss chance % buff for no real reason imo, it was fine as it was.
New reflect....here we go...
I think the old reflect was kinda fine, if you were a good player you are severely less punished by your opponent spider using it.
Main issue with the new one: incoming damage....
Base incoming damage reduction on creeps = 56%, let's say a defiler gives you 10% extra with his new boon buff it becomes 66%, add 5% from a potential artifact (please remove incoming damage from this) makes it 71%, let's see 25% from a full reflect goes up to 96%!
that's better than a warleader bubble even if you take off or 2 corruptions, because of the duration...
I like the idea of turning it into a corruption of sorts because it allows for more counterplay, but even without the defiler buff, this is gonna make you so insanely tanky for as long as it's up.
Other than this it looks amazing.
Some side notes that popped up after making this essay:
Wardens: now that creeps have more removal of effects, warden are gonna deal significantly less damage, and their mitigation debuff (one of the best in the game to counter the inc dmg/mit build) can be cleansed so easily now. I feel like this class will be utterly useless after these changes in most group play, if not solo.
Champ sprint: I already said it needed a nerf, it's pretty niche in pve, where it's always good to close a gap, but sometimes it's WAY TOO GOOD because of the permanent slow immunity on it depending on the fight. It doesn't have to be that long in both pve and especially pvp, as much as I enjoy zooming all over and not giving a F.
Overall I'm very happy to see some genuine reworks of creep side, adding corruptions as buffs and being able to remove freep debuff effects more efficiently is a great addition!
Thanks for reading,
me
P.S.: creeps pls don't read about the overpowered stack inc dmg/mits build, I'd hate seeing you be much harder to kill...
Not sure that a transitory +6 on BA range that needs to be built up and can be dispelled is adequate compensation for the freeps all running +10 range. Spiders need a range buff too. Please keep an eye on this and be open to giving us a traited corruption for range, and yes, more corruption slots are needed.
I usually roam around with 2 finesse trait slotted on WL.
Meanwhile it is enough for grams-lug and solo/small group fights but in raid vs raid situations where every freep has muster of courage buff I need probably atleast 1 or 2 more (3-4 overall) finesse trait slotted to successfully hit something with my shouts. And ofc the shouts still mostly resisted.
Also you probably forgot we have inductions which is easily interrupted by: champs/burgs/rk stones + in lag its sometimes very hard to manage heals.
So to sum up: Either give more base finesse to WL or reduce healing skill inductions (or make crack the whip not interruptable like relentless maul on beorning)
PS 1:
"it's not like you need your WL to target the RAT too much anyway imo."
With the recent changes if you want to get kills count for your deeds then yes you have to damage the RAT. (imo this recent change is not working well and it should be corrected)
PS 2:
"Solo side I don't have enough of an idea what to do, but who would wanna play solo WL"
WL could play solo in the past but now its just pointless because almost every freep can outheal its dps or just escape easily.
Also I used to play a lot in duo with a dps class, but now it is just a suicide tour mostly.
Great news, thank you!
I'm glad someone brought this up because I'm also facing the same issue. I appreciate the addition of new audacity gear for freeps and changes to audacity for creeps, but the amount of commendations required to buy the freep gear, for example, is quite off-putting.
Ideally I would like to play at least 2 freeps and 2 creeps in PvMP, but it seems like it would take a very long time to get enough commendations to acquire enough audacity for each character to be reasonably competitive. Admittedly I did stop playing for a while and had about 7k commendations saved up from before, but it still feels like a bit too much.
Any chance of having commendations acquired increased in general for both sides, Orion?
Fair enough, I definitely forgot that muster courage fear will apply to everyone these days, that will make it hard to even hit on worse geared players etc.
Maybe a bit of finesse seems reasonable then, could just be WL specific as well
That said the deed changes I'm not even gonna bother with, I know it might be frustrating, but that's a problem on it's own and shouldn't be balanced about skill wise imo
Solo WL has been horrible for a longer time now, I guess a lot of work would need to be done for that to become a thing again and I doubt it's on Orion's priority list tbh
Your post shows how little you actually understand pvmp and the history of its development.
Orion was working on this game before you even started playing my brother. He is NOT a new dev. He is a returned one.
I'd say he has a much better grasp on how this machine works than you.
Now for the two points you actually brought up. Which I'll grant are not uncommon suggestions.
Defiler in combat rez: Considering the current state of the warleader I don't think it's appropriate. It would be neat but if warleader has any hope of becommings a viable class again they need to be able to bring something to the fight that can't just be done with defiler. And as such I'd say it's fair to keep them the one creep class with IC rezzes. A compromise would be giving defilers a single target in combat rez. The issue is that WLs need some identity but ultimately need more than just a rez to make them more appealing than defiler. Orion did seem to acknowledge this in the past. And he has also mentioned that this about 25% of the creepwork he is setting out to do. More to come, WLs could benefit from better changes.
Wargs have performed adequately in 1v1s with no IC heal for years... Good wargs at least. Rallying becomes IC when you're in a group, due to defeat responses. Then again, it would also be neat to have. A way to trigger a defeat response other than a kill. And I personally don't see anything wrong about this.
The rest of your post and the others are completely irrelevant. It's self aggrandizing as all hell, riddled with inconsistancies and inaccuracies and frankly unhelpful.
Leader of the Mitey Worriers (Laurelin)
Purveyors of premier meats and vegan substitutes since 26/12/17
Having mixed feelings about these, especially for shadow stance, Scratch and Snip buff seems kinda pointless. Need more incentives to choose other skills over usual bestial claws spam (either dmg or utility wise). Also, might be worth improving the positional damage of the class instead of simply increasing damage across the board, reward proper positioning and ability to seek positional.
Shazen - r14 Stalker
Oiz hit the nail on the head with a lot of his feedback, so most of this might just reinforce his points. I like a lot of these changes, some of them feel like they fall short of the intended effect.
Lethal kiss - While it sounds nice this will get clear most likely by most classes, and will definitely get cleared in group/raid play before it can proc, shortening the countdown before the effect does its damage would help or provide some lesser downside if it is cleared, somewhat like virulent poison has.
Venomous Haze - Cool its getting a buff, in solo its really just a venom builder, might give RKs a headache with a couple seconds until its cleared but otherwise won't have much of an impact. in Group/raid it most likely won't see any impact due to range traceries. Bumping it to 20m would bring it more in line with how it used to effect classes.
Necrosis - I'm not grasping why this was changed, even with the added finesse bonuses a lot of the problem with resists is due to % based increases from classes like champ for themselves, mini and captain for the group. Since the skill is ratings based it feels like if its not some huge value like it is currently the effectiveness of it is pretty close to 0.
Shelob's gift - This skill requires one of the 5 racial slots creeps get and requires a defeat response. Reducing the heal by 66% seems like a bit of an overkill, in group place its nice and "might" save you if its up when you need it but most likely 1) isn't up, and 2) is not enough in RvR to make that much of a difference due to heal debuffs, CC, etc. In solo play its rarely used because of the afore mentioned defeat response requirement. All in all, its a very niche skill and should be potent due to whats required to even fire the skill.
Envenom - Can you elaborate on this a bit? The dmg bump is nice, however the part about increased damage is a bit confused based on how the current skill works. Right now you get a 20% bonus for each stack of ensnared consumed, the note mentions a 20% bonus for venom, is this to say that instead of using ensnared to increase damage it now increases 20% based on how many venom pips it generates? Or is more changing on how this skill functions than the patch notes say.
Toxic carapace - I'm not sure how i feel about this. Will the -inc dmg from this stack with other sources such as audacity, food, relic, tome of defense?
Pet changes - Its nice they're getting love, but it seems like its not enough. Barring any other changes to how the pet functions, can their mitigations be increased significantly? The pet dies in group play to random aoes as its generally in the thick of the fight, even the ranged pet will drop its ranged abilities after a few seconds and run into melee range meaning it just dies and does mostly nothing. In solo play people just slap it with one skill and its dead. Even with the increased health i don't see the pet lasting more than a couple of seconds.
Cleansing shadows - Is there a reason physical effects were not included in this? Also the rate at which spider can build pips to use spenders is pretty low compared to classes like champ, brawler, and hunter. 3 seems like a bit much considering you're giving up a decent amount of damage/resist penetration to use this skill. Depending on the heal this may be worth it but moving the pip cost to 2 would be nice, so it can be used in a pinch by throwing venomous haze or latent poison quickly.
Poison Spray - Not gonna lie, I really like this change.
Base melee damage - Why was the ranged/tactical damage also not increased? While tactical damage of the class right now is okay a bunch of it is tied up in class matchups (due to cleanses) and resists, and suffers greatly from both of these in group/raid fights. With the nerf to necrosis spider will suffer even more from resists than it currently does overall reducing its tactical damage. The OP/relic changes may alleviate this somewhat, but as nice as it is to have these objectives be useful and will be fought over i'm not getting a bunch of warm and fuzzies about a good portion of the effectiveness of the class being tied to them.
Additionally as an overall note, spider animations still seem stuck in the past, in today's game it almost an eternity to fire skills with no way to cut these skills, is it possible to speed these up slightly?
It's been mentioned before but just to reiterate the changes overall are welcome but do little to address the spider's true problems in today's game, 1) Resists, 2) cleanses, 3) long animations 4) slow venom generation.
Last edited by Daec; Aug 24 2022 at 11:21 AM.
Rank 15 Minstrel, Rank 12 Rune-keeper, Rank 7 Champion
Rank 13 Weaver, Rank 11 Blackarrow, Rank 10 Reaver, Rank 10 Stalker, Rank 10 Defiler, Rank 7 Warleader
Reaver (r15), Weaver (r8), War leader (r10), BA (r9), Stalker (r7), Defiler (r7)
And here are the last of the changes that I should be committing before we open Bullroarer.
Warleader
Trait Harsh Language now adds a 15% reduction to induction times.
When the trait Power of Fear is active the skill Fracture now applies the Power of Fear induction removal effect.
Blackarrow
Steadfast Barrage now has a range of 40m.
Damage on each hit is increased.
Channels for a Duration of 6s and damages the target for every 1s that it is channeled.
Cooldown is now 20s.
Improved Steadfst Barrage now has a range of 40m.
Damage on each hit is increased.
Channels for duration of 8s and damages the target for every 1s that it is channeled.
The damage effect has a chance to crit.
Cooldown is now 20s.