CNN: Rings of Power delivers spectacle, lacks dramatic power

[Radhruin_EU]

Slow is good sometimes, and they haven't told us this was going to be an epic tale of grand scale proportions (is supposed to be a spy thriller). Also, these episodes had like 3x 30 min and they've already achieved a lot, including plot, world-building and character development. It's good it's "not exactly Star Wars" (at least not immediately) - because at last they showed us some proper world-building and wider context after all these years, cool to see the inner working of the empire beyond just the strictly controlled sectors with troopers all around. And the corpo guys? They actually have depth as people, not just cannon fodder and nameless obstacles, but you can actually tell what some of these people stand for, in terms of values, and what makes them the bad guys here (even though they're kind of "not really" and nowhere close to what's gonna happen when the empire sends a star destroyer their way). Also, in the backstory, they're playing with that idea and nuance a bit that even under the Jedi (who were like super busy in battles) there were already dark deeds committed by some of the Republic's leaders, here and there. This is all the kind of nuance RoP should have gotten with Nuemnoreans, their colonies and different peoples of Middle-earth, not just "they're taking our jobs!" stereotypes. Such a sad reminder...

Don't get me wrong, I like it. Just a few things I noticed:

- I really liked the cyberpunk vibe on Morlana One (with the lights and the rain, and the grimy urbanism) but it was almost too cyberpunk for it's own good - the only thing that really made it Star Wars was that the gun was a blaster. Cyberpunk typically has a 1980s rettrofuturism about it (with the neon and everything) whereas Star Wars has an older retrofuturistic look so there's a bit of a tension between the two. Really well executed though, the cinematography was great. Someone clearly knows exactly what they're doing.

- I like how Ferrix is another planet in the same system so Cassian had been off-planet and back in a borrowed sublight junker, really low-key and that makes for a nice change

- Ferrix is yet another desert planet. We seem to spend an awful lot of time on desert planets in Disney Star Wars, but at least it isn't bloody Tatooine again. The sets are really good (they have their own distinct style) and it definitely has that SW vibe to it

- if I had to point to one thing that makes it feel a bit less 'Star Wars' it's the overwhelming preponderance of humans. I did like that huge Vetch guy though

- I really like B2EMO, nice design

- the dialogue's really good

- some classic British archetypes for the security guys - the Chief Inspector who's old and cynical and just wants to keep things quiet, and the burly sergeant who sounds like he's ex-military (those two are pitch-perfect examples of their type, the way they look, the way they talk)

Andor's a breath of fresh air after that disappointing Boba Fett series and the cringefest that was Obi-Wan Kenobi. What with this and HotD we're kind of spoiled at the moment, which is nice. Pity about RoP...

[WhimsicalPacifist]

Yeah, it's just bad fantasy. Reading between the lines, I guess the idea was that they had to fix up the Elves with mithril foil hats or something before they engaged with the bad guys, so G-g didn't want Galadriel accidentally starting a war too soon. She's your archetypal loose cannon. It's a loose reference to the idea of the Elves 'fading' (callback to LOTR and what happens to Lorien) but turned into a contrived existential threat to the Elves themselves on an arbitrarily short timescale that only the unobtanium can fix. Sad.

I was thinking that the Dwarves could start up a new line of shampoo, Mith-oreal. It'll make Galadriel's hair shine as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin. Haven't seen it shining lately.

If Mithril is imbued with some mystical power via Silmaril that saves the Elves, wouldn't the Sun or Moon have a similar cleansing property? The Sun has clearly has an effect on evil, namely Orcs. Maybe the onset of Elven acne can be prevented by asking the Dwarves to make tanning salons that focus the Sun/Moon? Or find means of using the Light of Earendil, an actual Silmaril, to recharge their batteries?

The other thought I had was where did this 4th Silmaril come from? One is with Earendil, one in the depths of the ocean and the last in the molten core. The latter two lost until the Dagor Dagorath.

[Radhruin_EU]

I was thinking that the Dwarves could start up a new line of shampoo, Mith-oreal. It'll make Galadriel's hair shine as though it had caught in a mesh the radiance of Laurelin. Haven't seen it shining lately.

Maybe she's born with it, maybe it's Metheglin?

If Mithril is imbued with some mystical power via Silmaril that saves the Elves, wouldn't the Sun or Moon have a similar cleansing property?

We know they could collect the light from Earendil's Silmaril as that was what the Phial of Galadriel held. But here, because there's really nothing to stop them going back and forth from Valinor they could pop back and hang out with Earendil when he's not sailing about and all nice and glowy that way...

The other thought I had was where did this 4th Silmaril come from? One is with Earendil, one in the depths of the ocean and the last in the molten core. The latter two lost until the Dagor Dagorath.

They can't follow the 'official' line on the other two lost Silmarils due to licensing, so you could take this one of theirs as the 'fiery chasm' one if you like.

On yeah, easy way to deal with the Balrog in that story... put the Silmaril on the end of a stick and poke the Balrog with it

[TesalionLortus]

if I had to point to one thing that makes it feel a bit less 'Star Wars' it's the overwhelming preponderance of humans. I did like that huge Vetch guy though

- some classic British archetypes for the security guys - the Chief Inspector who's old and cynical and just wants to keep things quiet, and the burly sergeant who sounds like he's ex-military (those two are pitch-perfect examples of their type, the way they look, the way they talk)

There were some aliens in the background but yeah, that's generally a Star Wars problem now... we have humans everywhere, plus if that's not animated series (where things are obviously much easier) they're indeed overlying on human population a bit too much.

I liked the "British" angle. People usually refer back to "Nazi" stereotype in relation to authoritarian, totalitarian regimes and when they discuss these things (and indeed that's what Disney did with 7-9 and turned the Empire into literal Nazis on steroids, the way they barked orders and how they saluted, except with the intelligence from "are we the baddies" meme), but that's never how I viewed the OG trilogy. We can talk about them as "Nazis" with how oppressive they are and there is also racism involved, yes, but the structure and military behavior has always reminded me a bit about the sort of a "British" colonialism or something like that (and in fact, their racism and oppression would be reminiscent of that, rather than the full-on Nazi ideology). So the writers coming up with the British stereotype here (even though they're not exactly empire) is kind of very Star Wars here. (though imagine how that may sound now with the Queen's passing recently... LOL)

What with this and HotD we're kind of spoiled at the moment, which is nice. Pity about RoP...

Yeah, and I've just found out about some nice cartoon things I thought were already gone and cancelled, such as the Kulipari and Wolfboy, so the "niche" does deliver as of late. Pity about RoP... though maybe War of the Rohirrim will do the trick... well, I hope so

If Mithril is imbued with some mystical power via Silmaril that saves the Elves, wouldn't the Sun or Moon have a similar cleansing property? The Sun has clearly has an effect on evil, namely Orcs. Maybe the onset of Elven acne can be prevented by asking the Dwarves to make tanning salons that focus the Sun/Moon? Or find means of using the Light of Earendil, an actual Silmaril, to recharge their batteries?

Who knows, maybe they can redeem orcs in this... by having them "saturate" in the light of mithril. Happy ending. Oh, and Sauron finally redeems himself by slaying Galadriel whom everyone uniformly despises. Or maybe she finally goes to therapy in Season 5, starts gardening in Lothlorien and that's the message

[Radhruin_EU]

I liked the "British" angle.

The security guys sound exactly like they're from some old British police drama and that works , I loved the bit when the Chief Inspector says "You look stricken, Deputy Inspector' and the weary tone in which he delivers his realpolitik explanation as to exactly why he wants things hushed up (because the less attention they get from on high, the better it'll be for all of them there "...which presently includes you"). And that likely foreshadows what we might imagine will happen next, that the kerfuffle will be impossible to cover up and will attract some real and very scary attention from Imperial security.

The Imperials have always had a 'Nazi' vibe (it's in those natty grey uniforms and the jackboots, and how the uniform caps look) and the Imperial Security Bureau are basically their Gestapo. There's Imperial military intelligence as well (that stolen military tech Cassian was forced to leave behind is likely to be what really sets the cat among the pigeons) so all kinds of spooky people might get involved. The ordinary security guys are like the uniformed police, who've just been trying to keep their heads down and do their job quietly so as to avoid having the machinery of the Imperial state bear down on them... which it's probably about to. Oops.

[TesalionLortus]

The Imperials have always had a 'Nazi' vibe (it's in those natty grey uniforms and the jackboots, and how the uniform caps look) and the Imperial Security Bureau are basically their Gestapo.

The look maybe, and yeah, some inspirations are there. But... not exactly. Saying that Security Bureau and invigilation methodology is all like Gestapo... would be basically like comparing any "intelligence, invigilation agency" in any tightly controlled state to Gestapo, which is not always exactly accurate, because Nazi Germany was its own very specific breed, unlike many others known throughout history, and the ideology extended very far, with "racial issues" at all levels and them being a priority. SW's Empire is more like your regular strictly controlled state, like any empire from history or fiction that rules with an iron fist (and with a bit of tact involved), while also corrupted and engaging in shady practices such as slavery or bribery, and there is racism/prejudice/inequality (military service especially) but it's not exactly a hardcore ideology and they're not planning elimination of all other races or any specific races based purely on ideology (unless there is something to gain, like a workforce). So yeah, there are inspirations but not exactly a stereotype and in a lot of ways they're reminiscent of other political entities too. To be hanged up on just "Nazi" and "Gestapo" would be shallow. For example, there would be some religious zealot irl governments (with their "moral enforcement' invigilation branches) that would have much more in common with entities like Gestapo and bizarre ideological factors that mattered in governmental/military structures of the Nazi.

But we digress... so... what about these rings of cringe? :P (Oh well, it does tell something when I'm so burned out right now I would rather just... talk SW lol)

[Radhruin_EU]

The look maybe, and yeah, some inspirations are there. But... not exactly. Saying that Security Bureau and invigilation methodology is all like Gestapo... would be basically like comparing any "intelligence, invigilation agency" in any tightly controlled state to Gestapo, which is not always exactly accurate, because Nazi Germany was its own very specific breed, unlike many others known throughout history, and the ideology extended very far, with "racial issues" at all levels and them being a priority.

It's to do with part of what inspired Star Wars in the first place - the Imperials are pretty much space Nazis for the same reason that the baddies in Raiders of the Lost Ark are literal Nazis - it's harking back to thrilling adventure stories from back in the day. And there's baked-in nastiness in the Empire, it is after all meant to be actually evil rather than just exploitative so they're human supremacists as well as everything else, believing human culture to be inherently superior (and who does that remind you of?). So that's part of its DNA, as it were, along with Westerns, Kurosawa movies, 'Golden Age' retro sci-fi of the spaceships, robots and ray-guns variety, and some tropes from LOTR.

But we digress... so... what about these rings of cringe? :P (Oh well, it does tell something when I'm so burned out right now I would rather just... talk SW lol)

I'm burned out on The Cringe of Power too for the time being because it's all been said, wait for Episode 6 for this week's fresh hell

[TesalionLortus]

believing human culture to be inherently superior (and who does that remind you of?).

Except that can be said about ANY vast empire that exerts its dominance over other cultures and peoples (it may vary to some degree, but the general rule is that they feel very assured of their supremacy and right to rule, seeing others as inferior and less suited for it). Pretty much the same can be said about Greeks after they've conquered all of Persia. Or about Numenoreans in Tolkien, especially with Ar-Pharazon having the wheel. Or about the colonial British Empire. So that alone does not make a good, strong Nazi analogy. There is one by general association, simply because all of them were builders of empires, conquerors, oppressors and enslavers. But there was a very peculiar component to what constituted a Nazi and how they went about their ideology and made them so different from all these others

I'm burned out on The Cringe of Power too for the time being because it's all been said, wait for Episode 6 for this week's fresh hell

Well, I have a prediction - nothing will happen

[Radhruin_EU]

Except that can be said about ANY vast empire that exerts its dominance over other cultures and peoples (it may vary to some degree, but the general rule is that they feel very assured of their supremacy and right to rule, seeing others as inferior and less suited for it). Pretty much the same can be said about Greeks after they've conquered all of Persia. Or about Numenoreans in Tolkien, especially with Ar-Pharazon having the wheel. Or about the colonial British Empire. So that alone does not make a good, strong Nazi analogy. There is one by general association, simply because all of them were builders of empires, conquerors, oppressors and enslavers. But there was a very peculiar component to what constituted a Nazi and how they went about their ideology and made them so different from all these others.

Of course, but SW is all about American pop-cultural memes so there's more than one thing going on. Among other things, it combines the idea of a plucky rebellion against an empire (guess who, it's why there's a more general trope of British villains) with the idea of war against a sinister totalitarian state which has followed a failed democracy (and again it's obvious which one is being alluded to, with Palpatine taking control by means of emergency powers granted to him because of a crisis he'd engineered himself). And the brutal apparatus of state security goes with the latter.

Then there's the iconography of the Empire which leans heavily on black, white and red, and the Imperial symbol which looks *very* fascistic when it's on a great big banner; the way the Imperial Palace looks is very on the nose as to what they're taking inspiration from.

If that's not a good strong analogy I don't know what is!

[TesalionLortus]

Of course, but SW is all about American pop-cultural memes so there's more than one thing going on.

Yeah, it's not all one thing was all I was saying, with different inspirations at play.

Technically, the Imperial Palace was first the Jedi Temple as far as architectural design goes but yeah, it does look... impressive in a certain sinister way. But then again, nowadays canonically the symbol they use for the Empire was part of the Republic for a long time, and even at its conception before the Prequels were the thing it was said to be inspired by shapes used in 18th century forts, so not like someone just endeavored to specifically mimic something that would evoke the same kind of vibe that swastika does. Although the choice of colors on banners may be inspired by that, no doubt.

[Radhruin_EU]

Technically, the Imperial Palace was first the Jedi Temple as far as architectural design goes but yeah, it does look... impressive in a certain sinister way. But then again, nowadays canonically the symbol they use for the Empire was part of the Republic for a long time, and even at its conception before the Prequels were the thing it was said to be inspired by shapes used in 18th century forts, so not like someone just endeavored to specifically mimic something that would evoke the same kind of vibe that swastika does. Although the choice of colors on banners may be inspired by that, no doubt.

It's an interesting choice because it's a ziggurat, which goes with the whole ancient religion thing and the Jedi Council as its 'high priests'. It's likely doing double duty there because Coruscant comes across as a nod to Frtiz Lang's Metropolis (the archetypal retrofuturistic megacity) and the centrepiece of that was a ziggurat, as well (except the symbolic 'high priests' there were technocrats).

The Republic emblem was different and benign-looking, the Imperial one is really forceful. You can see them both here.

[Radhruin_EU]

It/ s that time again.

*** SPOILERS FOR EPISODE 6 ***

- Adar saying saying they'd come from the Ered Mithrin (Grey Mountains) to the 'Ephel Arnen'. Why would Adar use those names when talking to Orcs? And using Sindarin again when they have all the Elves speaking Quenya and he does, too. Ephel Arnen is an interesting one, 'Arnen' was thought by some to be an old pre-Dunedain name for Ithilien (as seen in the name Eryn Arnen, the hills round there) and the wider lands around it so the Ephel Arnen would be what becomes the Ephel Duath. That's some proper lore, pity they can't do that more often.

- nobody notices what should have been a very suspicious-looking big rock and chain sitting on the parapet by the outside of the gate, very handy

- there's moonlight so it's not even a dark night, and Orcs can see in the dark. Why do they need torches?

- how did all the people get out of the tower and away all the way over there without anyone having noticed? And they're using torches, which anyone could see from miles away.

- "Keen are the eyes of the Elves" is a direct quote from LOTR. 'Member Legolas?

- the map scene: the distances are off, if they sailed up-river as far as where Osgiliath would be built later (so as to have the shortest distance to cover on land) it'd take way more than one day to get to where they're supposed to be going

- still not clear why anyone follows Bronwyn, at this point they'd probably just follow Arondir's lead because he knows what he's doing.

- Arondir + Bronwyn! And as all good Tolkien fans knows fate doesn't take kindly to that. Death flags all round!

- the night attack - not all that dark and again the Orcs are using torches (that would work if it was just the Men dressed as Orcs doing it but not all of them - darkness is the Orcs' biggest advantage

- the Orcs don't use their torches right, you need it out of your immediate line of sight or you can't see a damn thing

- having to light the cart with flint and steel is epic fail: they could have used a fire pot or blacked out a lantern to take it with them and used the candle in that to light the stuff in the cart

- Bronwyn fighting the Orc - she telegraphed that strike so bad you could see it coming a mile away but the Orc just stands there flat-footed like an idiot

- you can see in the distance that nobody's reacted to the yelling and the sound of clashing steel

- fair do's though, the trick with the carts does light the place up real nice

- the Orcs just use blades but not spears, themselves? And why don't they have shields?

- the great big Orc should just have thrown Arondir down the well

- of course it's Bronwyn who saves Arondir! But she had a sickle earlier, not a sword

- the long pause after the first attack - given what happens shortly afterwards, what was Adar doing? If the idea was to draw them out, he could have had his archers let fly straight away

- Arondir finds a shield to keep off the arrows - but when did we see anyone using one?

- a through shot in the shoulder with a broadhead would be apt to hit an artery (and the amount of blood makes it look that way) so Bronwyn should bleed out altogether...

- Tolkien's Orcs used poisoned arrows (just ask Isildur!) so that's now two things that should kill her

- not a big fan of how the riders scythe a bunch of Orcs down with a chain, it's gimmicky

- Galadriel says "Noro lim!" to her horse - that's Sindarin again. 'Member Asfaloth? (but in any case, why does the horse respond to Elvish?)

- Halbrand is genuinely cool in this episode

- nobody thinks to take a look at what Adar was carrying, even though Galadriel and Halbrand don't know what it is

- when Galadriel was a child, she was in Valinor. How the heck could she have heard stories of Elves being made into Orcs? The Orcs didn't emerge until after the Noldor had originally gone to Valinor.

- okay, so Adar's a first-generation Orc, or whatever (he prefers 'Uruk' lol). And it's all very well them doing the 'Orcs are people too' thing but they're genuinely wicked in their own right

- the ruining of Galadriel as a character continues, now she sounds psychopathic

- Bronwyn is up and walking around and looking perfectly well despite having a nasty shoulder wound and losing all that blood. Great continuity, boys, real sense of consequence

- fair do's, nice volcanic mayhem (tip of the hat to the CGI guys) but one small thing: unless there's magic at work that pyroclastic flow should make them all extremely dead.

[TesalionLortus]

- the ruining of Galadriel as a character continues, now she sounds psychopathic

"Stick with us! She will get a therapy next seasons!" (maybe it's better if Celeborn stayed dead here, how is he going to survive THAT marriage?)

[LagunaD2]

Our official resident nay-sayer has covered most of Episode 6... :-)

Another decent episode, I thought.

The fact that nobody noticed Adar's switcheroo with the artifact was really implausible. This thing was a mysterious relic of evil, obviously tied to Sauron, and Galadriel never bothered to examine it? Please.

Also unexplained is why Sauron or Morgoth created an elaborate ancient artifact that ... irrigates the Southlands. Huh?

I did like the fact that all the orc tunnels and trenches were actually for a reason, and the transformation of Orodruin from a scenic mountain into a hell-spewing volcano was nice. A lot of cool ideas but very uneven execution.

Adar's 'uruks are people too' schtick was interesting, and brings up a point that that has always intrigued me. Unlike dorfs, orcs actually *are* children of Illuvatar. It's not clear from Tolkien whether they still have free will (although Adar certainly appears to in RoP) to choose between good and evil. And if they do, with their psychological and possibly genetic conditioning, on what basis can we fault them for not choosing good?

[Radhruin_EU]

The fact that nobody noticed Adar's switcheroo with the artifact was really implausible. This thing was a mysterious relic of evil, obviously tied to Sauron, and Galadriel never bothered to examine it? Please.

Even if she hadn't unwrapped it, she should surely have asked Arondir what it was and why it was so important to Adar and if he'd told her it was some device of Sauron she would absolutely have wanted to take a look. Also ridiculous that Arondir didn't bother to tell her! One of the biggest plot holes in the season thus far.

Something that I don't recall anyone picking up on is that the way the blade appears out of thin air is the reverse of how the blade of the Morgul-knife disappears, melting and vanishing like smoke in the air. And it working via blood-magic is a suitably gothic touch so in itself it's not a bad MacGuffin, it's just that the plot around it is made of stupid.

Also unexplained is why Sauron or Morgoth created an elaborate ancient artifact that ... irrigates the Southlands. Huh?

To be fair, it could simply be that there was always supposed to be a proper tunnel to Orodruin but that it was never finished due to the war (like maybe they'd done the volcano end and the dam end but not the bit in between), so Adar had to improvise. The idea of causing a phreatic explosion to make Orodruin blow up is really not bad at all, as that's a real thing that happens sometimes.

The wall o' flaming doom is a real problem though, one of those hits like a freight train: it's literally red hot, it's moving really fast and it's got ash, rocks and rock fragments and even boulders in it, and it's volcanic gases too so it has just so many exciting ways to kill you.

Adar's 'uruks are people too' schtick was interesting, and brings up a point that that has always intrigued me. Unlike dorfs, orcs actually *are* children of Illuvatar. It's not clear from Tolkien whether they still have free will (although Adar certainly appears to in RoP) to choose between good and evil. And if they do, with their psychological and possibly genetic conditioning, on what basis can we fault them for not choosing good?

Not necessarily, as Tolkien never made his mind up about what made Orcs tick; there are different versions. It's a bit of a poser philosophically because if they are Childen of Iluvatar then Eru would have to be creating souls just to have them be embodied in Orcs, taking it into Problem of Evil territory as they're born only to suffer and bring suffering to others. (All the more complicated as Melkor had begun as an aspect of Eru's own thought, and though he was a necessary force of chaos all the evil he did was still fundamentally down to Eru himself).

One possibility is that there's only what you might call an original stock of spirits for Orcs and they just get reincarnated. At least then Eru doesn't need to make new ones.

[Yistaan]

Even if she hadn't unwrapped it, she should surely have asked Arondir what it was and why it was so important to Adar and if he'd told her it was some device of Sauron she would absolutely have wanted to take a look. Also ridiculous that Arondir didn't bother to tell her! One of the biggest plot holes in the season thus far.

Something that I don't recall anyone picking up on is that the way the blade appears out of thin air is the reverse of how the blade of the Morgul-knife disappears, melting and vanishing like smoke in the air. And it working via blood-magic is a suitably gothic touch so in itself it's not a bad MacGuffin, it's just that the plot around it is made of stupid.


To be fair, it could simply be that there was always supposed to be a proper tunnel to Orodruin but that it was never finished due to the war (like maybe they'd done the volcano end and the dam end but not the bit in between), so Adar had to improvise. The idea of causing a phreatic explosion to make Orodruin blow up is really not bad at all, as that's a real thing that happens sometimes.

The wall o' flaming doom is a real problem though, one of those hits like a freight train: it's literally red hot, it's moving really fast and it's got ash, rocks and rock fragments and even boulders in it, and it's volcanic gases too so it has just so many exciting ways to kill you.


Not necessarily, as Tolkien never made his mind up about what made Orcs tick; there are different versions. It's a bit of a poser philosophically because if they are Childen of Iluvatar then Eru would have to be creating souls just to have them be embodied in Orcs, taking it into Problem of Evil territory as they're born only to suffer and bring suffering to others. (All the more complicated as Melkor had begun as an aspect of Eru's own thought, and though he was a necessary force of chaos all the evil he did was still fundamentally down to Eru himself).

One possibility is that there's only what you might call an original stock of spirits for Orcs and they just get reincarnated. At least then Eru doesn't need to make new ones.

One thing your writeup missed that a lot of others noticed was how in the world did the Numenoreans know that specific village was in trouble and how would they know where to find it? Yet there are scenes of the Numenoreans rushing on their horses when, unless I missed something, they had no reason to be aware of the immediate danger to Bronwyn's village.

[Radhruin_EU]

One thing your writeup missed that a lot of others noticed was how in the world did the Numenoreans know that specific village was in trouble and how would they know where to find it? Yet there are scenes of the Numenoreans rushing on their horses when, unless I missed something, they had no reason to be aware of the immediate danger to Bronwyn's village.

There was a scene earlier in Numenor when TIrharad was mentioned by name (I commented at the time that it seemed funny that the Numenoreans had maps of the area) and if they'd arrived in the valley below the watchtower, the army could have seen that the tower was in ruins, spotted the smoke rising from the village and put two and two together. Also, Halbrand obviously knows his way around and that village is the closest one to the watchtower. So I think they're okay there.

From the map shown early in the episode, they went through the mountains via what would become the Morgul Pass and by implication, the site of that watchtower might be where the Tower of Cirith Ungol would one day be built. The scale is off, it'd 'really be forty or fifty miles from Orodruin but having checked, that's where it is. The actual scene makes it look like Orodruin is only a few miles away, so danger close when it blows up,

Edit: but they're not off the hook because they did do a lousy job of letting the audience know what was going on.

[LagunaD2]

Even if she hadn't unwrapped it, she should surely have asked Arondir what it was and why it was so important to Adar and if he'd told her it was some device of Sauron she would absolutely have wanted to take a look. Also ridiculous that Arondir didn't bother to tell her! One of the biggest plot holes in the season thus far.

One might also expect that a Noldorin princess would be able to sense the presence (or not) of a super-evil relic ... in their own hand.

Theo was able to feel the power of the thing, but not The Commander of the Northern Armies...

[DavidmeetHal]

Unlike dorfs, orcs actually *are* children of Illuvatar.

Your dorf insults always make me laugh out loud!

[LagunaD2]

Your dorf insults always make me laugh out loud!

I speak only the truth.

[Radhruin_EU]

One might also expect that a Noldorin princess would be able to sense the presence (or not) of a super-evil relic ... in their own hand.

Theo was able to feel the power of the thing, but not The Commander of the Northern Armies...

She didn't know what it was *at all* though so the lack of evil vibes wouldn't be an obvious red flag. She was seemingly so busy obsessing over Sauron that she wasn't thinking straight, so she she just wipes Adar's blood off her dagger onto the wrappings but pays no heed to what they might contain. I can only assume the idea is that she's doing a Feanor, dragging others along on an obsessive and self-destructive course, but they're not up to the task of writing that (it's not easy!) so it doesn't work. It's hard to see why anyone would want to follow this Karen of the Noldor anywhere, just like it's hard to see why anyone would pay much heed to Bronwyn, because they've simply presented them as stereotypical 'modern' strong female characters as if that alone will carry it.

If they have any sense at all, they'll now give Galadriel a near-death experience that shocks her to the core and knocks her out of it. Although again I have my doubts as to whether they'd be up to writing that, and it's probably way too late to save her as a character because they've made her a Mary Sue as well. There is a trick of purposely making the audience hate a character and then have a redemption arc that turns that completely around (case in point: Ahsoka in the Clone Wars series, she went from loathed brat to fan favourite) but that takes deft writing and the character can't be a Mary Sue. That trick worked for Ahsoka because it was her attitude that was annoying, she was insufferably cocky and insubordinate, brashly overconfident in her own abilities and you could see her mistaking sheer luck for skill - she'd convinced herself that she was just that amazing, but tellingly the people around her didn't think that (even if she wouldn't listen) and of course she was eventually shown the error of her ways and grew the hell up. In RoP, though, the writers want us to believe that Galadriel really is just that amazing and that other characters think so too, and keep on reminding us of it. ++ungood.

[LagunaD2]

I dunno, at Arondir's urging, she went on a harrowing chase to stop Adar from getting away with the thing. Arondir specifically mentioned the item, not the bearer, as something that couldn't be allowed to get away.

I was a bit surprised that she showed Adar no pity. I've been thinking her cruel and psychotic reaction (which Adar pointed out) was a defense against letting herself feel empathy and pity for a servant of the enemies. And she did acknowledge going too far to Halbrand after.

[Radhruin_EU]

I dunno, at Arondir's urging, she went on a harrowing chase to stop Adar from getting away with the thing. Arondir specifically mentioned the item, not the bearer, as something that couldn't be allowed to get away.

But when she got a good look at him she immediately realised what he was and her immediate thought wasn't about the item, it was that she needed him alive so that she could ask him about Sauron. It all comes back to that with he, she can't stay focused on anything else.

I was a bit surprised that she showed Adar no pity. I've been thinking her cruel and psychotic reaction (which Adar pointed out) was a defense against letting herself feel empathy and pity for a servant of the enemies. And she did acknowledge going too far to Halbrand after.

That's because she's becoming a monster. Shielding yourself against empathy for the Enemy doesn't lead you to threaten genocide or take a knife to a bound prisoner, that's going off the deep end.

[LagunaD2]

That's because she's becoming a monster. Shielding yourself against empathy for the Enemy doesn't lead you to threaten genocide or take a knife to a bound prisoner, that's going off the deep end.

Genocide toward orcs and other servants of the enemy was pretty much the rule in the books, no?

I was thinking after my last post that taking orcs prisoner, as they did in E6, never happened in the books. It was no quarter given, or asked, apart from capturing Merry and Pippin, where it was clearly an unfamiliar and unwelcome departure from habit for the orcs. And orcs themselves seemed to fight to the death when retreat was impossible (or perhaps they were put to the sword despite pleading for mercy).

What would/could be done with orc PoWs? If released, they might go rogue and practice banditry instead of returning to military service, but that hardly justifies freeing them. All you could do is keep them under guard indefinitely, or perhaps march them so far away before releasing them that they'd be unlikely to return (in effect making them someone else's problem). No good options, really.

[Radhruin_EU]

Genocide toward orcs and other servants of the enemy was pretty much the rule in the books, no?

As a regrettable necessity because there was absolutely no trusting Orcs to honour truce or surrender and for their part, carrying out war crimes was their idea of fun. Beyond a rough tribalism where they'd look out for each other to an extent, they had no empathy, guilt or remorse and they hated the Elves in particular, along with anyone who sided with them. So yeah, SOP was no quarter asked or given because nobody wanted to be taken prisoner by Orcs, either. That's not the same as the sort of snarling hatred we see from Galadriel in that episode, though - Elves are supposed to be better than that.

The Numenoreans here aren't used to fighting Orcs, though. Although they should have heard the old tales. But the series is seemingly trying to humanise the Orcs, which might work in other settings where they're a natural race but not here where they've been made into monsters on purpose. Like you say, even if you took Orcs prisoner and somehow managed to deal with keeping them, if you ever let them go they'd instantly revert to type and take to banditry ("set up somewhere on our own with a few trusty lads, somewhere where there's good loot nice and handy" as Gorbag put it) and make life hell for somebody.