CNN: Rings of Power delivers spectacle, lacks dramatic power

[LagunaD2]

It's not tastes, it's claiming something is good when it isn't

LOL.

Please explain how to prove a TV show (or art generally) is good.

Talking about proof implies it's an objective determination, like Pythagoras Theorem, with a single correct answer.

I can't believe I need to belabor something so obvious.

One would think people who call themselves Tolkien geeks and fans would get that but these days it's not immediately obvious, apparently.

Go back and read the title of the article I linked. Specifically the last two words.

I strongly suspect there are an order of magnitude more people who approach the series like Calisuri than hard-core types like us. They enjoyed the films and/or the trilogy, but it was a long time ago, and they have thought about Tolkien little, if at all, in recent years. Now there's a flashy series that takes them back to the same world, and contains both familiar and new elements to draw them in.

That is the demographic Amazon *should* aim for. If the show keeps people like that looking forward to their hour of Middle-earth every week, and tuning in, who are *you*, Mr. Elitist Guy, to look down on them? There is vast amount of Tolkien material out there, but the tiny fraction accessible to a casual audience basically consists of no more than four books and their film adaptations.

As for RoP, the writing - both plot and dialog - seems lack-luster to me, so far. We would all be pleasantly surprised if the writers could evoke Tolkien's story-telling artisanship, but that's an awful lot to ask. But it's also not unknown for the writing of a series to improve over time.

We're only two episodes in. Even the wise cannot see all ends.

[LagunaD2]

They're access media, they'll say whatever to keep that sweet, sweet access.

And there you go, blithely calling a stranger a liar, simply because you can't bear to entertain the thought that maybe he actually enjoyed the show as he claimed.

I hope I never sink to that level of cynicism and misanthropy.

[TesalionLortus]

LOL.

Please explain how to prove a TV show (or art generally) is good.

I literally said how, with arguments that have merit. But apparently you ignored it.

Go back and read the title of the article I linked. Specifically the last two words.

I strongly suspect there are an order of magnitude more people who approach the series like Calisuri than hard-core types like us. They enjoyed the films and/or the trilogy, but it was a long time ago, and they have thought about Tolkien little, if at all, in recent years. Now there's a flashy series that takes them back to the same world, and contains both familiar and new elements to draw them in.

That is the demographic Amazon *should* aim for. If the show keeps people like that looking forward to their hour of Middle-earth every week, and tuning in, who are *you*, Mr. Elitist Guy, to look down on them?

I literally said in my previous post I have no problem with people liking something, what I have a problem with is them claiming something is good enough and somehow deserving of praise based on mere "this takes me back to the same world (because was shot in New Zealand, duh), and contains both familiar and new elements to draw me in" but they're totally discarding the lack of substance and awful writing behind it, and then they keep saying it's "good" but don't provide any strong arguments for it, so their "good" is based simply on superficial factors that have nothing to do with storytelling. But that's not good by any stretch, that's the weakest form of writing and entertainment you could possibly come up with and if Amazon stayed truer to source material and made an overall better story with better writing and without some needless changes - these same people would like it just the same, because they don't care either way, so what merit does their opinion hold? If it's based on mere superficial factors? No merits at all. Whereas, you can actually like something for what it is (because that's all you got and brings you to Middle-earth, somehow, in some shape or form) and acknowledge it's not a good show by any stretch of imagination - if you can't provide any actual merits beyond the superficial, I mean. Both are possible at the same time. If you only got humility.

Also, I can't believe I need to explain that to you, but here we are.

There is vast amount of Tolkien material out there, but the tiny fraction accessible to a casual audience basically consists of no more than four books and their film adaptations.

In that case, if THAT'S what really matters, make a remake of LOTR in a tv format if you're going to rehash LOTR anyway, not a "fake" series in Second Age.

Also, I find it hilarious Laguna that you're acting as if there was so much merit to all these "opinions" (based on superficial factors that I don't find convincing as decent reviews at all) but you yourself just said there is a lot of imperfection about the show and what they're doing is basically rehashing LOTR for "familiar factors" points and discarding the setting they've literally chose for their show, and you're talking about it as if that was something "normal" and "to be expected" and "what Amazon should aim for"

Also, I'm not hardcore. So no, it's not misanthropy nor being entitled, and not something you "should be avoiding" and hoping you never "become that." It's like one of the most regular, normal things to do, if you can acknowledge there are all these flaws you just said you acknowledge (that's my point, why play the devil's advocate? oh yes, because you "respect" the opinions of some others about it being supposedly "great" the same others who wouldn't notice a difference and would enjoy it just the same if it was better written? where is the logic in that? ).

Btw, I doubt RoP can get much better with all the changes, silly things and alterations they've already done. They haven't just written some of the characters boringly in first two episodes, they've turned the world upside down, discarded the themes that mattered in that settings. A fantasy show that doesn't have an impressive start/begins with some characterization shallowness in its first episodes (but that would be also due to being cheap and creators being inexperienced with a big screen, at first) would be something like The Outpost tv series, a perfect example and a little diamond in the fantasy genre as of late. But gets better pretty quickly. I can already bet some of its later seasons can beat anything that S1 of RoP throws at us (apart from cost-intensive, flashy visuals). The Outpost is pretty engaging with great characters and interestingly written fantasy world with its own lore that doesn't leave you in disbelief. (Fun fact, the mother of Éothain and Freda from PJ's Two Towers was in this and she was AMAZING). So, when shows like these exist, on low budget, how can you claim I'm being "misanthropic" simply for pointing out the facts? and then you act like it's "not a good thing to do" to do? Like I should just bow my head in humility before every, even the silliest argument, and agree that the show "clearly has merits, it's great" based on... nothing of real impact really? Misanthropic because I expected, idk, moderately good production from a company backed by billions of dollars? Think again. If anything, the very fact we haven't gotten a moderately better adaptation paints our entire reality as misanthropic. Because it wasn't that hard to achieve, it really wasn't and they still failed. Shadow of Mordor levels of failed. Except with SoM and SoW they're just these silly games to play around with their cool Nemesis system, something that no one treats seriously and everyone (universally) can acknowledge for sh*it that it is (as an adaptation of Middle-earth), even if they're having fun in this game. So why so stubborn to defend RoP, based on superficial factors?

[LagunaD2]

I literally said how, with arguments that have merit.

So how do we objectively, and without invoking subjective judgments of personal taste, determine whether an opinion about a work of art "has merit"?

What if two or more people disagree?

[TesalionLortus]

So how do we objectively, and without invoking subjective judgments of personal taste, determine whether an opinion about a work of art "has merit"?

What if two or more people disagree?

All of that was said already, both by me and Radh. There is also something called common sense. But sure, keep playing coy and like none of that was discussed.

[Radhruin_EU]

And there you go, blithely calling a stranger a liar, simply because you can't bear to entertain the thought that maybe he actually enjoyed the show as he claimed.

I hope I never sink to that level of cynicism and misanthropy.

I'm saying that site shows glaring bias, to the extent that it's simply sensible to take anything posted there with a huge pinch of salt.

[LagunaD2]

I'm saying that site shows glaring bias, to the extent that it's simply sensible to take anything posted there with a huge pinch of salt.

So you think he did not, in fact, enjoy watching the first two episodes?

[LagunaD2]

All of that was said already, both by me and Radh. There is also something called common sense. But sure, keep playing coy and like none of that was discussed.

Despite claiming it was possible, you haven't cited a single objective criterion to "prove" that a work of art is good.

Why not just admit that you said something ridiculous?

[TesalionLortus]

Despite claiming it was possible, you haven't cited a single objective criterion to "prove" that a work of art is good.

Why not just admit that you said something ridiculous?

Because I didn't, even elaborated in-depth, so you're just embarrassing yourself right now with these one-liners.

[Radhruin_EU]

So you think he did not, in fact, enjoy watching the first two episodes?

I'm saying that the articles on that site hype RoP in such a consistent way that it's obvious they're biased in its favour. That they'll bend over backwards to avoid saying anything negative, so for example where an honest review might question, say, Galadriel deciding to swim back across the Sundering Seas, their review dances disingenuously around it. For example:

"Then after sharing some thoughtful conversation with Tolkien Professor Corey Olsen and Matt Nerd of the Rings we figured this was maybe a lore-moment that would raise a few eyebrows."
LOL, you don't say... at that point I simply couldn't believe what I was seeing. You don't need to know much lore to know that jumping into the sea so far from land would be completely crazy and that a huge deus ex machina would be required. (And the one we get is leading to even more coincidences, like who's on the raft and where he's come from, and whose ship it is that rescues them. Not hard to guess that last bit. This, in an honest review, might be seen as overly contrived).

"Maybe it seemed really “out there” but it’s a binary choice ultimately to dramatize what Valinor looks like — as a place, as as destination for the sprit and body and soul. It occurred to me this huge set-piece is here for television audience’s sake."
We already know what it looks like, dude, it's in the prologue. They could have covered the rest in dialogue (as they talk about it anyway), e.g. have Elrond say "It is said that Valinor is hidden from all eyes unless you find the way, which then opens before you amid a great light and you are greeted by the sound of song." (And then much later, when Ar-Pharazon & Co. turn up, they're greeted instead by a light that hurts their eyes rather than being warm and welcoming and an awful, ominous silence).

The review goes on to suggest they *had* to do this (make the writers' excuses for them, guys) but I don't see why - there are other ways of doing it. Galadriel could still refuse ("Yes, the poets sing of it, but I have not come so far nor fought so long to seek refuge there. Not while the Enemy may still walk these lands - the thought would gnaw at me, even in the Blessed Land" (or something of that sort). And now of course Gil-galad will be totally done with Galadriel and there's no way in hell he's going to give her any more men, so she's stuck. Hmm, what to do. Lindon feels kind of confining all of a sudden, let's have Gladdy pop down to Eregion to visit Celebrimbor (they're related). So they talk, and he persuades her that further ventures into the North would be folly since any trail would be long since gone cold ("None could dwell in that icy wilderness forever and a day, not even one such as Sauron. If naught else, his Orcs needs must eat and he would have sought out some more congenial hiding-place. But where, I wonder? Middle-earth is wide and there is all the East and the South, the lands of Rhun and Harad, where he might have gone unseen. And those are the lands of Men, of whom we know little, But I know of those who do, who voyage far and wide, even to the ends of the earth, it is said: the Men of Numenor. If any might have heard rumour of the Shadow, they would."

So, now we have a reason for Gladdy to want to see the Numenoreans. But how? Time for some actual lore, The Numenorean haven of Vinyalondë (or Lond Daer) was on the coast a ways south of Eregion. In this scenario, it could be an enclave where they come to trade with the Elves (Celebrimbor and Co. could doubtless use rare and precious things from far away) even if they're otherwise kept at arm's length. So Celebrimbor gets one of his servants to sail Galadriel down the Gwathlo (which would make for some nice landscape shots in passing) and she goes to talk with a Numenorean captain who's there (guess who). He says he can't help her himself, but if she comes back with him she could seek an audience with the Queen and ask for her help. So off they go. And along the way, they happen across a raft and it's our mystery man Halbrand. He could still seem a bit sus because he's the sole survivor of an attack by a sea-serpent - "Fortunate indeed", Elendil might say, raising an eyebrow. So at some point Halbrand and Gladdy talk and eventually she finds out about the Orcs in the Southlands, and we're all caught up.

There you go, an alternative, no "I'll just swim back" nonsense and yields the same result without changing anything else. Or we can just keep making excuses for why the writers simply had to write things in a hugely contrived way.

[TesalionLortus]

There you go, an alternative, no "I'll just swim back" nonsense and yields the same result without changing anything else. Or we can just keep making excuses for why the writers simply had to write things in a hugely contrived way.

And... based on what we've seen from promos and heard from some gentle leaks it's going to get more contrived from this point onward, like Galadriel and Halbrand will be locked up in a cell from the get go but they'll escape thanks to a dagger from Anarion (or something), beat up some Numenorean guards, this will probably lead to the blown up ship from the trailer, and somehow, at the end of it, Miriel will be like "you know what, let's go look at the Palantir and go slay some orcs, we'll create an army (because we never had one) and you and I will be in charge of it, badass girls forever" Oh, also, they'll decide to settle on a cavalry (for the rip-off of Faramir's scene), despite never having a full-fledged military force hence no military experience, and then they'll somehow transport this cavalry all across the ocean without any logistic hassles, despite never having a war fleet before, and their sails not being... very practical... to say the least... and there is also the matter of Numenoreans in their version not having any established havens (most likely, because the Southlands were under the occupation of elves) so they'll just randomly drop off their horses somewhere on the shore and get all the way to the Mordor part of the Southlands. And that's just a start of this 5-season circus...

This entire series will be hack writing through and though. It's like coming up with an elaborate lie and then so caught up in this lie that you gotta create an entire spider web of different lies, many of which contradicting. Except worse and far less elaborate... and they WILL continue on "lying" because they can't admit defeat (plus Amazon can't admit it nor show any sign of weakness or goodbye to Amazon Studios), besides they all think this is all so perfect apparently, dissociated from reality of things as they are.

[wispsong]

And... based on what we've seen from promos and heard from some gentle leaks it's going to get more contrived from this point onward, like Galadriel and Halbrand will be locked up in a cell from the get go but they'll escape thanks to a dagger from Anarion (or something), beat up some Numenorean guards, this will probably lead to the blown up ship from the trailer, and somehow, at the end of it, Miriel will be like "you know what, let's go look at the Palantir and go slay some orcs, we'll create an army (because we never had one) and you and I will be in charge of it, badass girls forever" Oh, also, they'll decide to settle on a cavalry (for the rip-off of Faramir's scene), despite never having a full-fledged military force hence no military experience, and then they'll somehow transport this cavalry all across the ocean without any logistic hassles, despite never having a war fleet before, and their sails not being... very practical... to say the least... and there is also the matter of Numenoreans in their version not having any established havens (most likely, because the Southlands were under the occupation of elves) so they'll just randomly drop off their horses somewhere on the shore and get all the way to the Mordor part of the Southlands. And that's just a start of this 5-season circus...

This entire series will be hack writing through and though. It's like coming up with an elaborate lie and then so caught up in this lie that you gotta create an entire spider web of different lies, many of which contradicting. Except worse and far less elaborate... and they WILL continue on "lying" because they can't admit defeat (plus Amazon can't admit it nor show any sign of weakness or goodbye to Amazon Studios), besides they all think this is all so perfect apparently, dissociated from reality of things as they are.

Who comes up with such nonsense?
At least I'm reminded why I don't watch much modern TV and movies. Watching these 2 episodes of a new show was actually an exception because despite the interviews and commercials I hoped that this would be worth my time.

[LagunaD2]

I didn't see anything biased or dishonest in what you quoted. They speculated as to why the writers did something bizarre and implausible. Even if you think the writers are morons, why is it biased to inquire (in effect) "what were they thinking"?

There you go, an alternative, no "I'll just swim back" nonsense and yields the same result without changing anything else. Or we can just keep making excuses for why the writers simply had to write things in a hugely contrived way.

Your alternative is more logical and lore-defensible, but far less dramatic and visually interesting.

[Radhruin_EU]

And... based on what we've seen from promos and heard from some gentle leaks it's going to get more contrived from this point onward, like Galadriel and Halbrand will be locked up in a cell from the get go but they'll escape thanks to a dagger from Anarion (or something), beat up some Numenorean guards, this will probably lead to the blown up ship from the trailer, and somehow, at the end of it, Miriel will be like "you know what, let's go look at the Palantir and go slay some orcs, we'll create an army (because we never had one) and you and I will be in charge of it, badass girls forever" Oh, also, they'll decide to settle on a cavalry (for the rip-off of Faramir's scene), despite never having a full-fledged military force hence no military experience, and then they'll somehow transport this cavalry all across the ocean without any logistic hassles, despite never having a war fleet before, and their sails not being... very practical... to say the least... and there is also the matter of Numenoreans in their version not having any established havens (most likely, because the Southlands were under the occupation of elves) so they'll just randomly drop off their horses somewhere on the shore and get all the way to the Mordor part of the Southlands. And that's just a start of this 5-season circus...

This entire series will be hack writing through and though. It's like coming up with an elaborate lie and then so caught up in this lie that you gotta create an entire spider web of different lies, many of which contradicting. Except worse and far less elaborate... and they WILL continue on "lying" because they can't admit defeat (plus Amazon can't admit it nor show any sign of weakness or goodbye to Amazon Studios), besides they all think this is all so perfect apparently, dissociated from reality of things as they are.

Yeah, I know. The exploding ship scene made me wince. Something like Greek Fire would have the desired effect of destroying a ship in no time flat but it wouldn't explode like that (burning liquid streaming across the deck would look scary as, though). If we were looking for a reason to lock up Gladdy and Totally Not Sauron (sorry, Halbrand) we need look no further than factional politics. The King's Men are powerful and most of the population side with them, and they don't like Elves even if Miriel does. They probably don't like suspicious strangers who hang around with Elves, either. So maybe something like this, just for fun:

- Elendil says he has to pop off to the palace to sort out a safe-conduct to allow Galadriel and Halbrand to go ashore legally (as they have laws and stuff)
- While he's gone, some of the King's Men rock up and insist on inspecting the ship (since Elendil's not on their side, they don't like him much either and they're all about harassing the Faithful, so they force their way aboard)
- Galadriel gets arrested for having pointy ears and Halbrand gets hauled off too because he's sus
- So now they're locked up somewhere. Time for a daring escape, and Gladdy can beat up the King's Men, Xena style (there's every reason she *should* be able to beat up Men because lore-wise she'd be a lot stronger than she looks and fast, too).
- They find a way out. Dramatic chase scene! Show off the architecture and how it's a long way down. Gladdy can show off that famous Elven agility. Halbrand somehow manages to keep up but with difficulty. Shakes his head as if he can't believe how insane all this is.
- The escape doesn't 100% work because they eventually get cornered, but lo and behold who should turn up but some of the queen's guards with Elendil in tow and the KIng's Men reluctantly have to let them go.
- And now Gladdy gets to talk to Miriel. Girl power ensues with Gladdy and her new BFF. The palantir conveniently provides proof that there are Orcs in the Southlands. Miriel is totally okay with helping Galadriel out for reasons.
- If it was up to me then having the Numenoreans fielding really well-drilled infantry who fight in close formation would fit their image as well as being actual lore. They could have a small detachment of cavalry as a royal guard for Miriel.

But who knows what they might really do. I'm guessing that the Orcs in the Southlands will turn out to be in thrall to this Adar guy we've heard about. We won't find this out straight away. Our heroes will deal with him. Plot twist: Sauron's just suckered them into ridding him of a rival. And maybe there's some MacGuffin there he needs, something that's been there since Morgoth's time (which the Orcs have been looking for). Something awfully sorcerous happens and everything goes to hell. (I'm imagining some major volcanic event which will lead to Mount Doom being formed and the Southlands getting Mordorified, so to speak).. Of course there's still Theo and the evil sword to contend with (if Theo does an Anakin and turns to the Dark Side, there'll be just so many memes).

[wispsong]

I didn't see anything biased or dishonest in what you quoted. They speculated as to why the writers did something bizarre and implausible. Even if you think the writers are morons, why is it biased to inquire (in effect) "what were they thinking"?



Your alternative is more logical and lore-defensible, but far less dramatic and visually interesting.

Dramatic?
Whenever I play vol1 and come to the last chapters I cry for Narmeleth. I'm emotionally gripped by this story. That is drama. Nothing in this show moved me to tears or surprise or feeling for any of the characters. It's soulless, at least for me.

[DavidmeetHal]

Dramatic?
Whenever I play vol1 and come to the last chapters I cry for Narmeleth. I'm emotionally gripped by this story. That is drama. Nothing in this show moved me to tears or surprise or feeling for any of the characters. It's soulless, at least for me.

To this day, I still stop in my house and look at her portrait.

[LagunaD2]

Dramatic?
Whenever I play vol1 and come to the last chapters I cry for Narmeleth. I'm emotionally gripped by this story. That is drama. Nothing in this show moved me to tears or surprise or feeling for any of the characters. It's soulless, at least for me.

How did you like it when you were shuttling back and forth to Rivendell half a dozen times before there were stable-masters?

I certainly hope the writing improves, but expecting emotional payoff when we're 4% through the story seems kind of silly.

[TesalionLortus]

Your alternative is more logical and lore-defensible, but far less dramatic and visually interesting.

Oh, but she can always run into some wargs on the way or something, come across an eagle, literally anything. Not interesting? How so? But randomly jumping into water in the middle of the ocean and then watching as some no-names get eaten by a sea monster you don't really see much of is... interesting, in a Tolkien sense? I don't think so. But, I agree more drama is better, in that case they might have started this series with Sauron already in charge of some Eastern kingdoms (maybe through a proxy figure), Arondir sent to investigate in the East and slaying different things, acting kind of like a badass elven spy (which leads to his romance with Bronwyn, show how it developed, I mean, it's a tv show, why start it already with him in the romance???) and some Numenorean military action against the rising orc threat, with twists and turns regarding their relationship with the locals and other kings (the colonial factor resurfacing over the course of the series). Plenty of drama, visuals and creatures to explore. And evil sorcery (perhaps a bit more elaborate than a black goo from a cow...). Hobbits you don't need, a wizard you don't need (replace the magic stuff with Galadriel doing some magic back at home, I can even buy into her doing some over-the-top magic, for the sake of the spectacle), Khazad-dum - until the Forging gets underway - you don't need (maybe replace with dwarves from the East, make them ALL black for all I care, lots of brownie points to score! If actual diversity is really what they're about... but I doubt it is). Show Numenor from the POV of Isildur and Anarion of course, our main characters, and if you want some more exposition for her, well, have Galadriel take a ship in one of Numenorean harbors (or Grey Haveans! So show us Grey Heavens) and sail East, as a political representative, maybe to resolve a crisis and act as elven eyes and ears, in search of the source of evil and to investigate whether Sauron is truly involved which is what she fears (but perhaps Gil-galad and others don't share her fears, thinking that Sauron will not dare to cause trouble after what happened to his master). So when at the war front, she can do some sword fighting too, why not, but no being sword addicted here... you can even have her meet a version of Halbrand, but don't make it too obvious... because if that's actually Sauron he should be cunning af, especially around someone like Galadriel lol. Also, with Sauron being a Maya, you can actually sell the concept of him being kind of at two places at once, if you provide some not too obvious breathing room between scenes... so have him act as Annatar (or something similar) around Celebrimbor, under elven guise, at the same time.

So... a lot of drama to come up with in this world. In believable, sane way. You can even have multiple storm scenes and jumping into water from the get go, with Numenoreans being sailors and all that, perhaps even some cool action sequence with military vessels. You gotta be literally a moron to screw that up... and they did.

[Radhruin_EU]

I didn't see anything biased or dishonest in what you quoted. They speculated as to why the writers did something bizarre and implausible. Even if you think the writers are morons, why is it biased to inquire (in effect) "what were they thinking"?

It was biased to forgive RoP's every other fault and only pick up on that one thing that was so glaring that even they felt they had to say something. And that ad-hoc excuse of theirs didn't make it any less implausible, nor did it justify suggesting that the writers simply had to do something so implausible. You're not telling me that was the only way to handle that: I only thought about it for a bit, they had months and they're supposed to be pros, and that was the best they could come up with? Don't imagine it's only me who thinks that scene is bonkers.

Your alternative is more logical and lore-defensible, but far less dramatic and visually interesting.

None of this is really lore-defensible since the whole scenario is bananas. The point was simply to avoid the "I'll just swim back" thing; dramatic nonsense is still nonsense. I'm no fan of empty spectacle; a key complaint a lot of people have made about this has been spectacle over substance. Another has been a ton of wasted time that doesn't advance the plot (like that very expensive storm scene that really doesn't add anything). As for needing *multiple* dei ex machina just to get Galadriel back to dry land - do you honestly think that's good writing?

As for "visually interesting", you might have noticed how they're doing "dotted line across the map" travel to the extent that there's no sense of time or distance. For example they have Elrond and Celebrimbor arrive at Khazad-dum on foot as if it were just walking distance from Eregion (hint: it wasn't) and Celebrimbor could just walk straight back again when the Dwarves wouldn't let him in. That looks ridiculous. They're not even dressed for travel, it looks as if they've just gone for a stroll. You don't see that in House of the Dragon (as an example of something contemporary), they show brief scenes of travel actually happening to indicate what's going on and they have people dressed for it and riding horses (or being in a carriage) to get from A to B. And most of all, cast your mind back to the travel scenes from the LOTR movies.

[TesalionLortus]

Elrond and Celebrimbor arrive at Khazad-dum on foot as if it were just walking distance from Eregion (hint: it wasn't) and Celebrimbor could just walk straight back again when the Dwarves wouldn't let him in. That looks ridiculous. They're not even dressed for travel, it looks as if they've just gone for a stroll.

Spoiler: the errand boy Elrond carried the grandpa's provisions under his robes so Celebrimbor will never make it back alive. Galadriel forges the rings of power instead, with the help of her new boyfriend.

[LagunaD2]

As for needing *multiple* dei ex machina just to get Galadriel back to dry land - do you honestly think that's good writing?

No, I've said multiple times that I thought it was bad writing.

As for "visually interesting", you might have noticed how they're doing "dotted line across the map" travel to the extent that there's no sense of time or distance. For example they have Elrond and Celebrimbor arrive at Khazad-dum on foot as if it were just walking distance from Eregion (hint: it wasn't) and Celebrimbor could just walk straight back again when the Dwarves wouldn't let him in. That looks ridiculous. They're not even dressed for travel, it looks as if they've just gone for a stroll. You don't see that in House of the Dragon (as an example of something contemporary), they show brief scenes of travel actually happening to indicate what's going on and they have people dressed for it and riding horses (or being in a carriage) to get from A to B. And most of all, cast your mind back to the travel scenes from the LOTR movies.

This is just finding fault for the sake of complaining.

Perhaps their horses were hitched or being held by an underling just off-screen.

[Radhruin_EU]

No, I've said multiple times that I thought it was bad writing.

Okay, if you admit it's bad then why couldn't TheOneRIng.net be honest enough to also admit it was bad rather than conjuring up excuses for it?

This is just finding fault for the sake of complaining.

Perhaps their horses were hitched or being held by an underling just off-screen.

Not really, it's a matter of attention to detail that other series seem to be quite capable of making (as were the LOTR movies) so the lack of it stands out.

While we're at it, the inhabited part of Khazad-dum was at the eastern end, on the far side of the Mines, and the whole place was at least forty miles from west to east (that's in the book). And in the FOTR movie Gandalf said it would take them four days. You need to hint at scale to communicate it to the audience - here they're being lazy and assuming everyone will just know that and assume it for them, and that's neither evocative nor immersive.

[LagunaD2]

Okay, if you admit it's bad then why couldn't TheOneRIng.net be honest enough to also admit it was bad rather than conjuring up excuses for it?

Maybe because they think it was less bad than I do? They clearly said it was questionable.

While we're at it, the inhabited part of Khazad-dum was at the eastern end, on the far side of the Mines, and the whole place was at least forty miles from west to east (that's in the book). And in the FOTR movie Gandalf said it would take them four days. You need to hint at scale to communicate it to the audience - here they're being lazy and assuming everyone will just know that and assume it for them, and that's neither evocative nor immersive.

I suspect they decided it's an unimportant detail. And I agree. They showed visually that the place is huge, which is more compelling than putting distances in dialog. I imagine there will be future scenes which reinforce the sense of scale.

[DavidmeetHal]

Maybe because they think it was less bad than I do? They clearly said it was questionable.



I suspect they decided it's an unimportant detail. And I agree. They showed visually that the place is huge, which is more compelling than putting distances in dialog. I imagine there will be future scenes which reinforce the sense of scale.

OFF TOPIC! I just wanted to say that I've always loved your sig. Down with dwarves. They really need to learn how to take a bath. It wouldn't hurt, they aren't sandworms from Arrakis.

[wispsong]

How did you like it when you were shuttling back and forth to Rivendell half a dozen times before there were stable-masters?

I certainly hope the writing improves, but expecting emotional payoff when we're 4% through the story seems kind of silly.

You do realize that some shows and stories can grip your attention after 5 minutes, right. Like the beginning of Silmarillion. There are books I started reading and couldn't put down, not short books either. And some series on TV going over years which got me involved the first 15 minutes of the first episode.