Where do we go from here?

[SSG_Orion]

So you want less people playing in the Moors??? or 6 or more groups running around??? This is not feasible or realistic. Its always been raid based as far as I can remember. I understand 1 or 2 leaders. enjoy smaller groups and others enjoy being raided up. But if SSG wants to make it a group based Moors then take away the option to create Raids. And with that a good number of people leaving the moors at same time. Low ranks won't beable to get into the elitist groups (since the so called elitist are the ones wanting only small groups). Its not fair to the beginning creeps or freeps to do this. Isnt that why SSG made the unused arena in he moors.

Not sure how you are arriving at your first question. No, we do not want fewer players in the Ettenmoors. Our goals are to provide a wider number of objectives that can be undertaken by smaller groups to drive the battles.

Taking Lug, TR, TA, the Grimwood, and Isendeep used to require raids to effectively capture. This has not been the case for a pretty long time. We're not planning on removing the ability to create raids, nor are we going to actively de-incentivize raids. What we want to do is make smaller groups as appealing by providing better impetus for smaller fights. Further, we want to change up the barrier to entry and efficacy to be accessible to those first stepping into the Ettenmoors without requiring an additional grind on either side of the battle.

For all of this to work, we need to properly incentivize both sides of the battle.

[Neinda]

Not sure how you are arriving at your first question. No, we do not want fewer players in the Ettenmoors. Our goals are to provide a wider number of objectives that can be undertaken by smaller groups to drive the battles.

Taking Lug, TR, TA, the Grimwood, and Isendeep used to require raids to effectively capture. This has not been the case for a pretty long time. We're not planning on removing the ability to create raids, nor are we going to actively de-incentivize raids. What we want to do is make smaller groups as appealing by providing better impetus for smaller fights. Further, we want to change up the barrier to entry and efficacy to be accessible to those first stepping into the Ettenmoors without requiring an additional grind on either side of the battle.

For all of this to work, we need to properly incentivize both sides of the battle.

Suggestion: Make a brand new creep, rank 0 and walk outside of Grams and try to kill a slug. Things are a bit difficult and frustrating these days for those new to the Moors. Could be a bug or could be working as intended but not worth the time it takes to kill a slug. The slugs are the first thing a new creep runs into other than burgs camping the slugs. If a new creep cannot easily kill a slug they might decide Moors are for someone else.

TA also has issues for the freeps being able to take it even with a raid. It appears to be permanently red now.

[Kate00]

This is the whole problem A couple of people are forcing their vision of game play on the many.

yep.



On another note, let me ask a question. How toxic is ooc on the smaller servers? cause freeps in creep ooc on arkenstone on rank 0 reavers saying whatever they want without consequence is horrific and my ignore list is full.

[Neinda]

yep.



On another note, let me ask a question. How toxic is ooc on the smaller servers? cause freeps in creep ooc on arkenstone on rank 0 reavers saying whatever they want without consequence is horrific and my ignore list is full.

The last three times I went out to the Moors on Landy there was nothing going on. I think the bad apple creeps have all gone back to whatever server it is they go to when they get bored picking on the smaller servers because there was none of that foolish name calling and chest thumping happening That is one positive with all the change. The roving creeps are ignoring the dead servers. It sounds like you have them on Ark now.

As far as normal server activity, it was a completely dead zone. I tried Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday which used to be the big raid nights there. No OOC chat. No activity at all. I think the old organizers there have left the game.

[SSG_Orion]

Suggestion: Make a brand new creep, rank 0 and walk outside of Grams and try to kill a slug. Things are a bit difficult and frustrating these days for those new to the Moors. Could be a bug or could be working as intended but not worth the time it takes to kill a slug. The slugs are the first thing a new creep runs into other than burgs camping the slugs. If a new creep cannot easily kill a slug they might decide Moors are for someone else.

TA also has issues for the freeps being able to take it even with a raid. It appears to be permanently red now.

I agree, that if a brand spanking new creep wanders out to try to kill a slug they will struggle. Need to make sure they go get that blessing first, so the initial intro needs to be reworked.

[CarenC]

Not sure how you are arriving at your first question. No, we do not want fewer players in the Ettenmoors. Our goals are to provide a wider number of objectives that can be undertaken by smaller groups to drive the battles.

Taking Lug, TR, TA, the Grimwood, and Isendeep used to require raids to effectively capture. This has not been the case for a pretty long time. We're not planning on removing the ability to create raids, nor are we going to actively de-incentivize raids. What we want to do is make smaller groups as appealing by providing better impetus for smaller fights. Further, we want to change up the barrier to entry and efficacy to be accessible to those first stepping into the Ettenmoors without requiring an additional grind on either side of the battle.

For all of this to work, we need to properly incentivize both sides of the battle.

How can you say you don't know where I arrived at the first question when I clearly showed your statement in quotes. You said SSG wants to get away from raids in the moors and move to smaller groups. New creeps will always do the grind and have the patience of being burg'd every 5 minutes whether they have the so called Blessings or not. I remember the feeling of accomplishment upon I completing the deed for a map, now why bother grinding for maps when it would be so much easier just to get a sigil or buy a map off store. I can't come up with a word to express the feeling that have been taken away from creepside. There is no goals set for a new creep to strive for imo. Maybe I am just reflecting on my personal reflections of growing from a r0 to a r15 creep. I took pride and satisfaction in my creeps just as I do in my freeps, but that is just me.

[CarenC]

yep.



On another note, let me ask a question. How toxic is ooc on the smaller servers? cause freeps in creep ooc on arkenstone on rank 0 reavers saying whatever they want without consequence is horrific and my ignore list is full.

HAHAHA Kate, thats cause 99% of them are freep spys. That is another issue that I wish SSG should take care of. Maybe nice for freepside to be able to have 6 accounts running around farming gold and mats, but that has no place in the moors. The ability to have multiple accounts running at same time needs to be re looked at. To have a freep and creep logged into the moors, even if it is just one toon in moors would stop alot of the bad atmospheres created, plus reduce the rank farming

[CarenC]

This is the whole problem A couple of people are forcing their vision of game play on the many. So far it has cleared PVP from the smaller servers. I guess this is what people want. PVP is limited to those who are considered acceptable and the rest of us are food for those that run the Moors. Unless those in charge decide feedback from the non elites is worthwhile, nothing will change. The low ranks won't be able to leave the GV steps or walk out of Grams. The smaller groups are probably ok for a bigger server but they really won't fit with smaller server PVP where the atmosphere is very different and the players coordinate activity for balance on both sides.

Thank you. You said it more clearly then I did.

[DSBoomer]

This is the whole problem A couple of people are forcing their vision of game play on the many.

100% this! All you need to do is read through this thread to find out who those people are. They are the only ones saying this update wanted/needed and that "creeps are much better off".

[subadar]

creeps are better off today than they were in the past.

you have a short memory if you've forgotten how long creeps were basically paper targets for freeps.

the changes to creepside have mostly been pretty good. this whole map/movement thing was a real turn off tho.

SSG were successfull creating a push pull environment. we call it the shuffle and its dumb, boring and TBH i'd rather do something else.

[Calenhand]

Oryon, skill wise I am the best pvper the game has seen. bring me onboard if you want your product & UX to be improved regarding pvmp. I ll provide my services for free, at start.

[Grey_Havens_Taxi]

Further, we want to change up the barrier to entry and efficacy to be accessible to those first stepping into the Ettenmoors without requiring an additional grind on either side of the battle.

For all of this to work, we need to properly incentivize both sides of the battle.

I'm sorry to say it, but I don't believe you. That's not an apology. Its a sorrowful moment to have to say it. If you truly mean what you have said quoted above, then PvMP would have no threshold bar for entry at all. There has been numerous opportunities to change that. Instead SSG has doubled down on Audacity. Instead SSG forced upon its players a barter situation for PvP gear. Now with you at the helm you've essentially disabled Creeps maps. Creeps never needed March, nor did Freeps need increased mount speed from the original mount speed. I'll say this as clearly as I can. You can't stop the zerg.

The only one's who can stop zerging are the players. That means using tactical finesse to ensure you and your raid doesn't become the recipient of said zerging in action. By your choices you are removing everything about PvP that imbues mystery, chaos, and the unknown. Meaning that all encounters are predetermined because everyone at every moment knows where their opponents are. Where might that be? I'm glad I ask. I'll gladly answer as well. GV, Grams, or a Rez circle.

What we have in the Moors today equates to trench warfare. Boring, boring, boring. The incentive to PvP can't be trinket rewards or upgrades skewing balance. The incentive is already there. It is the PvP itself.

I'll say this for the last time of 15 years in this game and these forums. If you want success, you will bring us back to the days of SoA. I do not say that out of nostalgia. I say it because it worked.
That means a return of all 5 outpost to their original locations and their prerequisite entry to the Delving. The original location of the rez circles. And... for some holy man's sake bring back the Npcs to the bridges including An. Make audacity an invisible passive. Do away with Commendation bartering completely. If players want to Pve grind then let them go where Pve is fully intended. When I log onto PvP I do not want to do anything but PvP and I certainly don't want to be drip fed ground into boredom, because it will take hours, days, weeks and more to be remotely competitive. No and more no.

Does a player who wants to play Hobnanigans have to grind as prerequisite to play it? Does a play who wants to fish have to grind to go fishing? Does a festival goer have to grind as a prerequisite to get all festive? You know, LotRo sidegames. No they don't. SSG has always maintained PvMP is a side game. Why can't the sidegame of PvMP be a simple endeavor?

The only threshold in LotRo's PvMP to have been removed is the communities aptitude. Which has been why we have what we have today. Mindless clashes where the only way to win is too have greater numbers. I see no real strategies employed. No real mental manipulation forcing your opponent to pick up their game or in fact do anything but press three buttons. It's so terrible that plinking ten wolves in the Shire for the deed is more fun.

I miss the days when...

As I posted previously, I'll be somewhere else until you bring 'us' the players what I described above. The old map and its structure.

I almost forgot. Did I read you wrote a Creep out of the box can be killed by a slug? Serious???

[aleczander]

I'm sorry to say it, but I don't believe you. ...

It's a good thing Orion is an adult and has no problem ignoring fools.

My response is rather aimed at others who may lurk here: if you can't say anything nice at all and pair it with constructive criticism, get off the internet and get some help. Seriously, for your own sake. Get a drink or something, be kind to yourself, and stop trying to spread misery around.

Best Regards,
Jay

[Hilawolf]

[QUOTE=aleczander;8173120] no problem ignoring fools.

if you can't say anything nice at all and pair it with constructive criticism, get off the internet and get some help.

Hmm this seems contradictory.
I think some good points were made, there is no doubt a barrier to entering Pvp. A freep with gold gear will explode from anything that is encountered in the Moors and can't kill anything. Same for new Creeps. In my option, the mindless shuffle has been going on for years, to me this is a terrible pvp experience. Sounds like SSG is trying to implement incentives for each side to have groups spread out around the map to hold objectives. Could we get some more information on what this would look like? Thanks.

[SSG_Orion]

Sounds like SSG is trying to implement incentives for each side to have groups spread out around the map to hold objectives. Could we get some more information on what this would look like? Thanks.

As we draw nearer to releasing these updates we will share what they mean for the Ettenmoors and players out there.

[JonXu]

I forgot to mention about map changes. That quest, Slaughter Free People, often when I go to grab that item from grams and my maps/map is on cd I just wait, turn on Netflix or something. I'm sure I'm not the only one. And what good is use has Good Isendeep Mines? ATM only useful maps are Crude TA, Poor TA, Poor LC, Good TR, Crude IM, and maybe Poor IM/TR. But I think the most used is Good TR.

[b4jet9597]

First, the RvR dynamic is not something that we want to remove. In fact, I would love to lean into it a little harder. The details on the longer term adjustments are still being formulated and are not ready for general sharing. The shorter term adjustments will be discussed as we draw nearer their implementation. Suffice to say, there will be reasons for multiple groups to be active and at different locations. There will be new structure to those reasons and new incentive. Further, this incentive should appeal to both the creep-side and free-side player base regardless of their longevity in the Ettenmoors.

Dude, do you even play the game? How can you "lean" into RvR more when the lag is so bad? I want you Devs to get on Ark on a Friday evening when there's 60 creeps and freeps on and go try to fight on freepside. Stream it so we can see the frustration. It's honestly game breaking and you are actually getting irritated when people call you out on it. It should be priority number 1.

[TearMaker]

As we draw nearer to releasing these updates we will share what they mean for the Ettenmoors and players out there.

Oh Orion !!

This is 99% of the issue - the fact that you fully develop what is in your head with no consideration of the folks who have to try and sort this out when you ship it and it is total garbage.

I would have loved for you to have learned one thing from the last update and that would have been listen
My old MA used to say "you have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason"


Please stop giving token service to us - the paying players. If you really want to make a lasting difference in Pvmp then let's work it out together and stop getting back to what it was in 2008 - with the comments like you say above... "you will find out when you get it."

[Neinda]

Oh Orion !!

This is 99% of the issue - the fact that you fully develop what is in your head with no consideration of the folks who have to try and sort this out when you ship it and it is total garbage.

I would have loved for you to have learned one thing from the last update and that would have been listen
My old MA used to say "you have 2 ears and one mouth for a reason"


Please stop giving token service to us - the paying players. If you really want to make a lasting difference in Pvmp then let's work it out together and stop getting back to what it was in 2008 - with the comments like you say above... "you will find out when you get it."

It would be nice if the devs would put the new ideas/changes out there now (before they are set in stone) and get feedback from the different servers and more customers than the few driving these changes. The last big update "maps" has pretty much emptied the Moors on the smaller servers and did not stop the bad behavior it was trying to correct. I would love to know how SSG plans on convincing people to come back to the Moors and in many cases the game in general. SSG is under no obligation to ask for or listen to input, but once in a while the customer base needs to feel like the company actually cares about what the customer prefers. There may be great changes coming to the Moors, but I don't have much in the way of expectations based on the past year or two of changes in all areas of the game.

[Elmagor]

From what I seen, only one way to spread people in The Moors and don't allow them fight in RvR situation will be with forcing people defend different outposts and different keeps in same time. Like when you capture outpost, it lower defence for one of keeps, and you can attack TA only when you capture all other keeps. So people forced to attack and defend any keep, mines and lumber camp in same time. But with that idea TA must give greatest of them all buff, so both sides want to control it

[Neinda]

From what I seen, only one way to spread people in The Moors and don't allow them fight in RvR situation will be with forcing people defend different outposts and different keeps in same time. Like when you capture outpost, it lower defence for one of keeps, and you can attack TA only when you capture all other keeps. So people forced to attack and defend any keep, mines and lumber camp in same time. But with that idea TA must give greatest of them all buff, so both sides want to control it

This could be a great idea on a big server that has a lot of people online at any given time. I hope whatever they do will take into account that there are smaller servers and times on all servers when not many people are around. It would be a shame to turn the PVP area into a PVE area because everything requires several groups of people in the Moors at the same time for any PVP activity. The smaller servers' PVP population cannot get any smaller at this point. I guess we will see over the next year what will become of the Moors and PVP.

[Hyarmaion]

All map skills to locations in the Ettenmoors for Monster Players now share a 10m cooldown.
Creatures in the Ettenmoors have grown stronger.

Thank you now solo doing quests become slightly comfortable!

The skill March! has been increased to a 45% increase to out-of-combat movement to help in getting across the Ettenmoors.

Let the hunt begins! (45% non-combat and NO MAPS LOL Vs 78% even in combat)

Monster player skill power drain potency has been reduced.
Maximum power debuff from Latent Poison potency has been reduced.

So... if freeps get stuck in increasing Crits, mits and other stuff helping to initiale damage much more than in their Power capacity the decision is reduce Power Drain skills, right?

Why do I show a one hour cooldown on everything?

[LabadalofDorlomin]

One could argue specific, individual class v class matchups all day and get nowhere, since classes are not mirrors of one another. Creeps don't mirror freeps, and even within a side, classes don't all have equivalent toolsets to one another.

Brilliant developers you may well be but this is the remark that seems to come from someone who has absolutely zero idea of the mess they have caused whilst blindly and quite possibly innocently ignorant because they have never spent more than a few hours when they have needed to in the live zone and knee jerk react to the highest paying customers requirements rather than a true look for parity

What you are saying is great in theory. The reality has been creeps are being farmed constantly now. You changed the maps because one group of people were farming freeps. Those folks have now switched to their power leveled burgs and are farming creeps. The bad behavior has adapted to the new rules. Only people harmed in all of this are the ones that were trying to have a bit of fun and relaxation.

+1 ^^ A fine point and well made.

@devs
This is the issue and all your recently quoted tools to audit the zone are obviously redundant in any kind of real use for anyone except those who flip sides and benefit from the poor decisions.

[Dranak123]

Brilliant developers you may well be but this is the remark that seems to come from someone who has absolutely zero idea of the mess they have caused whilst blindly and quite possibly innocently ignorant because they have never spent more than a few hours when they have needed to in the live zone and knee jerk react to the highest paying customers requirements rather than a true look for parity



+1 ^^ A fine point and well made.

@devs
This is the issue and all your recently quoted tools to audit the zone are obviously redundant in any kind of real use for anyone except those who flip sides and benefit from the poor decisions.

The power levelled Burg (or Warg for that matter) is interesting. I have stepped away from the moors for some time now and when i go out there it is quiet and getting Comms is difficult of late. Rightly or wrongly I have dusted off a 120 valared Burglar with a comical but rude name (will need changing soon) for just the purpose you highlight. The aim is a sort of 'earn points and kit out my mains' under the banner of 'if you cant beat them join them'.
personally I hope that an increasing number of burg/warg players running around invisible may force the developers hand in this matter. Lets hope i can earn 30-40 thousand comms before they do (humour).....I am looking forward to the changes is the midterm though - maybe its just the tonic for the moors (at this juncture what have they honestly got to lose ! ).

[hanswurst13]

Questions to Orion:
1) do you have actual data on how op freeps currently are ?!
or do you just make things up ? if no pls post your findings, how much heal has each freep class in Hps
how much dps, ttk to kill it ect. you have the data

2) do you ever test the pvmp changes you make ?!

3) why can 3 creeps not kill a champion, mini, Beorning, Brawler, Bulgar, Champion, Guardian, Rune Keeper, Warden, Lore-Master?! only freep that currently dies to 3 creeps are Hunters.
Whats the resoning behind this ? are you porud of this ?

4) why is the Time to kill a creep so much lower for freeps?
why are there so many unbalanced classes in the etten for freeps ?

What is the point of all of this ?
why do you unbalance a pvp game? are you narcissist Orion? do you even play this game ?!
typical answer here is a quick "yes" , stream your monster play, play a shadow warg maybe and then play a burgler and compare the 2 ?
do you even know how to use skills without clicking them ?! we dont know sice you do not stream your expirence that makes you unbalance the creeps so bad.

and ofc we have mods that get offended by questions and delete posts, so nothing will change all fine
god beware the lotro pve crowd of microagressions, they are sooo fragile, like the mods.
guys dont clap it´s too loud use your hands to wink

i know the answer to all of this it is a narcissist no