Where do we go from here?

[SSG_Orion]

Not only is that the title of the great ending to the musical episode of Buffy: The Vampire Slayer's Once More with Feeling, it's also a question that has been asked here, on Bullroarer and other locations that I frequent during my work and play hours.

First, a General Thank You

Let me start by saying that I am overwhelmed with the response that we have seen with the latest rounds of Bullroarer. Incredibly detailed feedback from players new and long-toothed providing clear, concise, and often unwelcome and sometimes welcome criticism, concern, and advise on how to modify their favorite classes. While not every post was positive, neither were there a large number of negative responses. This means that there is healthy discussion, room for more improvement and engagement. While we have not been able to address everything, we have addressed some of the more egregious issues pointed out and will continue to push in directions that we hope will inspire the more positive discussions and changes that most of you want to see.

I mentioned when i returned that I wanted to begin a more open dialogue and communicate as best I could with the changes that are being discussed and slated for release in the future development of the game. To that end, I want to start using a structured post to explain upcoming changes. Additionally, I have talked with Cordovan and Severlin about being more "present" on the forums and in the community. Both have agreed and with the last stream, we've decided that I'll be sprucing up my stream a little bit and formalizing it into at least a monthly Q&A. Additionally, I want to run a stream - where I play the game alongside all of you. Details of that stream will be forthcoming as there are some details that need to be worked out. Now for the reason that most of you are reading this post.

The road goes ever on...

With Bullroarer testing winding down it's time to start looking toward the future and discussing what happens next.

As you all likely know, Before the Shadow is incoming and while the final release date has not been announced it will be upon us before we know it. While the majority of the release focuses on the PvE movements, motiviations, and advancement of story and your role in Middle-earth, there are some free changes coming on the Monster Play side that are rather - large. As I stated in my most recent stream, we are taking a phased approach to the changes in the Ettenmoors. This was the choice I made when I started as I knew I need to meet certain criteria along the way in order to keep the system out of the proverbial moth ball closet. So far, so good. Engagement seems to be up and we are certainly seeing a lot more banter with regards to monster play. This is great, it means that we get to move forward with more changes.

We all know that there are class tweaks, alterations, and outright changes that are coming with the imminent update that were recently tested on Bullroarer. While there might be minor tweaks to some of the skills and effects, the majority of those changes are now fixed in limestone. Yeah, I said limestone. None of these changes are definitely permanent and so we will assess and review the performance of the changes in the Ettenmoors and make further tweaks accordingly. Those are the knowns. You are not here for the knowns. You want to get a better understanding of the unknowns. And so...

In Development

This section discusses changes that are already committed to be changes in an upcoming release and will, at the very least, see testing on Bullroarer.

Changes to Control Locations in the Ettenmoors

All locations (Tirith Rhaw, Lugazag, Tol Ascarnen, The Isendeep Mine, and the Grimwood Lumber Camp) will see a reduced number of defending NPCs. This change is an effort to reduce performance issues in the Ettenmoors due to a large number of AI being present in the space. The standard reduction of present forces reduces the number of active defenders from ~60 to 16.

All locations while controlled by monster players or free players now have defenders with higher statistics to make the capture of the location closer to the original intent of the control points. These statistics include primarily an enhancment to morale, and mitigations, more than damage.

Outpost locations also see a decrease in the number of defenders and an increase in the statistics of those defenders for all three controlling factions. Additionally, the control of the outposts is no longer tied to access to the Delving of Frór.

The Delving of Frór is closed for renovation, players and monster players will not be able to access the Ettendeep until revisions are complete.

Battlefield Changes

Forward camps, housing the entrances to the Delving of Frór are abandoned. The gateways into the Ettendeep are dormant.

The Elf Camp on the eastern side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

The Orc Camp on the western side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

Monster Player Changes

Emissaries from Angmar, more specifically Carn Dûm, and Isengard have arrived in Gramsfoot. The emissaries offer an opportunity to modify your monster player by providing you a taste of what it means to ally with their clan. There will be seven clans to choose from, but you can benefit from only one of the clan blessings at a time. Clan alliance is a permanent choice until changed. To change your alliance you will need to speak with an emissary of another clan. The clans and benefits that they, generally, offer are as follows:

• Tarkríp Clan: A blessing of blades, enhancing your monster player character and making them a melee based scrapper with better tactical mitigations.
• Ongbúrz Clan: A blessing of great defense making your monster player a more tnak like character with better overall defense and morale.
• Blogmal Clan: A blessing of healers focusing on mastery and some defense.
• Krahjarn Clan: A blessing focused on functional back-line fighting and leadership with enhanced mastery and critical chance,
• Scara-pack Clan: A blessing of strikers meant to enhance your monster player's critical attacks and mastery.
• Shelob's Brood Clan: A blessing of corrupters meant to enhance mastery and damage over time effects.
• The White Hand Clan: A blessing of a balanced approach to warfare.

Only one of these blessings is applied to your character at a time.

Corruption changes. We are reducing the overall efficacy of the corruptions and moving the amount of benefit from each to the blessings offered by the clan emissaries. With the reduction of the efficacy of the corruption benefits we will also be reducing the number of corruptions needed to gain the set bonuses inherent to corruptions so that two will give the first set bonus and four will give the top level set bonus. The expectation is that the change to corruption traits will leave them with about 1/6th of the efficacy that they previously had.

In Discussion...

These are changes that we are discussing actively and if we move forward on them will move into the In Development section when they are ready for implementation. These are not guaranteed to see addition to an upcoming Bullroarer.

Monster Player Missions Version 1
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a different experience to earn commendations and rank without immediately entering the battle in the Ettenmoors. Unlike player missions, the idea is that these missions take place in iconic areas of the game world where players have caused some distress to the monster population and you've been tasked by leadership to help fix the mess with up to 11 other monster players. The first target for these missions is likely Urugarth, part of the Carn Dûm cluster of instances.

Monster Player Missions Version 2
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a similar experience to the free player side of missions where the spaces are instanced and solo and duo based experiences.

Player Missions
Alongside the creation of monster play missions, is the inclusion of player missions in the Ettenmoors as a way for players to earn commendations and rank.

Player Gear
Adjustments to initial gear granted upon entry to Ettenmoors and how it acquired.

Audacity Overhaul
Currently, it is still possible for a player in normal raid gear to survive and thrive in the Ettenmoors. We are considering harsher restrictions on that gear to enforce a swap to audacity gear. We are aware that the cumbersome nature of that swap is an existing issue and are working to solve that before any implementation along these lines.

Monster Player Allegiances
After the addition of the clans and parsing data for the updates to blessings, we are considering the introduction of allegiances to the monster players. Allegiances would, you guessed it, be tied to different clans available and have a 20 level reward system built around the allegiance to that clan. Your first clan allegiance is free but sets back your ability to join another clan by 2500 points. But fear not, points are earned through the monster player mission system @ ~100-150 points per mission. Additionally, you can find the badges that are used to increased your standing with a specific allegiance from standard monster play drops albeit at a very, very reduced rate. The goal is that achieving the max rank of an allegiance takes ~28 days for your first and ~30 for subsequent days without using mission resets. Rewards will be discussed more when we move out of the discussion phase of this potential development. The blessing would ALWAYS be the boon gifted for reaching Rank 1 of any allegiance.

Troll and Ranger Play

A new version of each of these with a rebalanced version of each of the sessions characters that is ~Nemesis level in survivability and damage. These new sessions would not be tied to the population limits, instead being accessible for Mithril Coins. These new session plays would reward commendations and potentially rank for completing objective in the session. The old sessions bound to population imbalance would get the upgraded treatment and also remain available as they are now.

More to Come...

I'm not done yet... so this is the tease of things to come. I think there is enough to chew on with this post. At least for a little while.

[Neinda]

Thank you for the regular updates and not being afraid of the player base. Your open and sharing communication style is appreciated and sets an outstanding example of how customer service should work. It is very much appreciated.

[Blotch]

Thank you for pushing these changes to this side of the game and for keeping us informed.

However, I am concerned about the scope of changes towards corruptions. It seems you are redistributing their attributes to the Clan benefits and you are reducing their overall efficacy to 1/6th. The issue here is that monster players are not getting enough benefits from the current corruptions and that's the reason why so many players have requested to increase the amount of slots for corruptions. Right now we need more benefits. And by doing so you are restricting the possibilities, because you force me to choose only one option, the one that gives me what you've taken from me. There is not much of a chance for a hybrid build if the only logical option is to go for the clan that gives me back the damage you took from me. Or are the benefits from slotting 2 or 4 corruptions going to compensate or offer greater bonuses?

Another question, are all classes allowed to be part of any clan?

[Palentian]

Dude. I very rarely hit the moors, but some of these changes have me excited. LOL An alternate way of getting rank? I mean I get its PVP, but right now just feels like a wafflestomp. Being able to rank a little? Heck ya! Maybe i'll survive a bit longer! Oh! And I'm very much looking forward to your regular streams!

[Spilo]

Appreciate your work and transparency over the last several months!

Monster Player Changes

Emissaries from Angmar, more specifically Carn Dûm, and Isengard have arrived in Gramsfoot. The emissaries offer an opportunity to modify your monster player by providing you a taste of what it means to ally with their clan. There will be seven clans to choose from, but you can benefit from only one of the clan blessings at a time. Clan alliance is a permanent choice until changed. To change your alliance you will need to speak with an emissary of another clan. The clans and benefits that they, generally, offer are as follows:

• Tarkríp Clan: A blessing of blades, enhancing your monster player character and making them a melee based scrapper with better tactical mitigations.
• Ongbúrz Clan: A blessing of great defense making your monster player a more tnak like character with better overall defense and morale.
• Blogmal Clan: A blessing of healers focusing on mastery and some defense.
• Krahjarn Clan: A blessing focused on functional back-line fighting and leadership with enhanced mastery and critical chance,
• Scara-pack Clan: A blessing of strikers meant to enhance your monster player's critical attacks and mastery.
• Shelob's Brood Clan: A blessing of corrupters meant to enhance mastery and damage over time effects.
• The White Hand Clan: A blessing of a balanced approach to warfare.

Cool, couple of questions:

1. Can you explain what the plan is for swapping clans? Will there be a cooldown/need to buy a "swap pass" or something from the LOTRO store?
2. Will these be rebalanced around incoming damage reduction/mastery caps? Having a clan give incoming damage reduction now would be incredibly OP as Creeps get steadily closer and closer to the -100%, but if the broken -inc damage stat gets fixed, then that would mean the clan buff may need to be buffed. Likewise, as level caps increase, a Mastery % buff from a clan may need to be scaled.

Corruption changes. We are reducing the overall efficacy of the corruptions and moving the amount of benefit from each to the blessings offered by the clan emissaries.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence.

With the reduction of the efficacy of the corruption benefits we will also be reducing the number of corruptions needed to gain the set bonuses inherent to corruptions so that two will give the first set bonus and four will give the top level set bonus. The expectation is that the change to corruption traits will leave them with about 1/6th of the efficacy that they previously had.

This is great news, almost on par with removing inc damage in terms of balance magnitude. No more 6 pmit required to not get 1 shot by a champ, then accidentally running into a hunter using light oil. Small adjustments with corruptions and strong base stats is what we've needed for a decade.

I will say that you may need to take a look at the set bonuses. There's a ton of variance in the efficacy of the corruption set bonuses, ranging from broken (+5% mits) to completely worthless (Power cost modifiers) to really weak (+5% mastery based damage). I think the motivation should be to keep all set bonuses moderately weak (to keep in line with your overall corruption strength philosophy), but not totally useless. May also be good to keep the set bonuses bottom heavy, so that players aren't significantly motivated to slot 4 of a corruption (for example, 2 Mastery gives +5% multiplicative damage, 4 mastery gives an additional 3%, encouraging more balanced builds but still providing a set bonus).

Monster Player Missions Version 1
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a different experience to earn commendations and rank without immediately entering the battle in the Ettenmoors. Unlike player missions, the idea is that these missions take place in iconic areas of the game world where players have caused some distress to the monster population and you've been tasked by leadership to help fix the mess with up to 11 other monster players. The first target for these missions is likely Urugarth, part of the Carn Dûm cluster of instances.

I'm pretty torn on this. Maybe if there's a cooldown of 24 hours or longer (so it's at most, a single time daily), and if it is lower rank creep friendly (easier to get your Audacity). My concern is that if it's anything remotely farmable, then people will spend more time PvEing in a PvP zone- a lot of areas are struggling population wise as it is. Even Ark/Evernight have their slow times, and the nature of this PvE is that there's no chance an incidental fight breaks out. This could be a really cool thing or a really negative thing for PvMP.

Player Missions
Alongside the creation of monster play missions, is the inclusion of player missions in the Ettenmoors as a way for players to earn commendations and rank.

Same concerns as above. I'm curious about the renown payouts as well- hopefully not significantly more than quests. It would be weird to have significant chunks of renown available for PvE.

On a slightly different thought, for population it would be awesome if you could tie in Keep Flips, Slayer QUESTS (pick up at Grams/GV, turn them back in, this way will be harder to abuse by farmers), and other map-oriented PvE into PvE rewards (LI XP being the big one). Even better if you could do this with Creeps as well (account wide with LI XP, for example). I'm certain many PvMPers and even new folks would spend more time PvPing if there was a small form of PvE reward that allowed you to grind while PvPing, even if it is not as efficient as grinding PvE missions/farming Sword Halls.

I love PvMP, but it always feels like a PvE race to get my gear finished in time to PvMP before the new set of PvE shinies comes out, and then the Moors is dead as everyone is grinding again. If you could allow PvMPers to grind some while PvMPing (even if at a slower rate), that'd be awesome.

Player Gear
Adjustments to initial gear granted upon entry to Ettenmoors and how it acquired.

I like these words, looking forward to seeing what this means.

Audacity Overhaul
Currently, it is still possible for a player in normal raid gear to survive and thrive in the Ettenmoors. We are considering harsher restrictions on that gear to enforce a swap to audacity gear. We are aware that the cumbersome nature of that swap is an existing issue and are working to solve that before any implementation along these lines.

Excellent news. I really appreciate how steep the curve is from "almost cap audacity" to "cap audacity-" the only problem is how low on the curve folks with T1-T3 gear sit, considering they are wearing full PvP gear.


Appreciate your work!

[Blotch]

This is great news, almost on par with removing inc damage in terms of balance magnitude. No more 6 pmit required to not get 1 shot by a champ, then accidentally running into a hunter using light oil. Small adjustments with corruptions and strong base stats is what we've needed for a decade.

Maybe this was discussed in another post but here he never mentioned he would give strong base stats to creeps. It seems that his plan is to redistribute the stats that corruptions currently provide to the clan benefits, meaning that if you do not affiliate to a clan you will be weaker than before. Please correct me if I am wrong or if I am missing something...

[Blotch]

Emissaries from Angmar, more specifically Carn Dûm, and Isengard have arrived in Gramsfoot. The emissaries offer an opportunity to modify your monster player by providing you a taste of what it means to ally with their clan. There will be seven clans to choose from, but you can benefit from only one of the clan blessings at a time. Clan alliance is a permanent choice until changed. To change your alliance you will need to speak with an emissary of another clan. The clans and benefits that they, generally, offer are as follows:

• Tarkríp Clan: A blessing of blades, enhancing your monster player character and making them a melee based scrapper with better tactical mitigations.
• Ongbúrz Clan: A blessing of great defense making your monster player a more tnak like character with better overall defense and morale.
• Blogmal Clan: A blessing of healers focusing on mastery and some defense.
• Krahjarn Clan: A blessing focused on functional back-line fighting and leadership with enhanced mastery and critical chance,
• Scara-pack Clan: A blessing of strikers meant to enhance your monster player's critical attacks and mastery.
• Shelob's Brood Clan: A blessing of corrupters meant to enhance mastery and damage over time effects.
• The White Hand Clan: A blessing of a balanced approach to warfare.

I believe this is a great idea, to bring new stuff to grams. You could go further by adding the chance to gain reputation with the faction that you became an ally. A couple of quests to get reputation and the possibility to unlock cosmetics, banners, emotes or even better benefits from the blessings they provide. It would be just like any other reputation faction in the game...but for creeps.

[kiwi88]

The expectation is that the change to corruption traits will leave them with about 1/6th of the efficacy that they previously had.

Cutting the mastery corruptions to 1/6th would absolutely cripple creep damage, please reconsider this. Our base mastery is so low already and these are our main way to boost it.

[gildhur]

With Bullroarer testing winding down it's time to start looking toward the future and discussing what happens next.

As you all likely know, Before the Shadow is incoming and while the final release date has not been announced it will be upon us before we know it.

So the last couple days it's sounding like 33.2 and 34 (BtS) will be very close in release? When it was first announced I didn't expect 34 until much later this fall, a couple months after 33.2, which I expected within a couple weeks once it hit Bullroarer. But your post and others make it sound like it's all going to be around the same time. Confirm?

[SSG_Orion]

Cool, couple of questions:

1. Can you explain what the plan is for swapping clans? Will there be a cooldown/need to buy a "swap pass" or something from the LOTRO store?

As this will be a pseudo-beta of sorts, monster players will only need to return to Gramsfoot and speak with a different emissary - complete the menial quest associated and get that clan's blessing.

2. Will these be rebalanced around incoming damage reduction/mastery caps? Having a clan give incoming damage reduction now would be incredibly OP as Creeps get steadily closer and closer to the -100%, but if the broken -inc damage stat gets fixed, then that would mean the clan buff may need to be buffed. Likewise, as level caps increase, a Mastery % buff from a clan may need to be scaled.

No particulars to discuss but we are mindful of where we are at right now.

I'm not sure I understand this sentence.

"With the reduction of the efficacy of the corruption benefits we will also be reducing the number of corruptions needed to gain the set bonuses inherent to corruptions so that two will give the first set bonus and four will give the top level set bonus. The expectation is that the change to corruption traits will leave them with about 1/6th of the efficacy that they previously had."

It means that the blessings are taking the weight of and bulk of the corruptions stats as a baseline boost for the monster player.

I will say that you may need to take a look at the set bonuses. There's a ton of variance in the efficacy of the corruption set bonuses, ranging from broken (+5% mits) to completely worthless (Power cost modifiers) to really weak (+5% mastery based damage). I think the motivation should be to keep all set bonuses moderately weak (to keep in line with your overall corruption strength philosophy), but not totally useless. May also be good to keep the set bonuses bottom heavy, so that players aren't significantly motivated to slot 4 of a corruption (for example, 2 Mastery gives +5% multiplicative damage, 4 mastery gives an additional 3%, encouraging more balanced builds but still providing a set bonus).

Noted.

I'm pretty torn on this. Maybe if there's a cooldown of 24 hours or longer (so it's at most, a single time daily), and if it is lower rank creep friendly (easier to get your Audacity). My concern is that if it's anything remotely farmable, then people will spend more time PvEing in a PvP zone- a lot of areas are struggling population wise as it is. Even Ark/Evernight have their slow times, and the nature of this PvE is that there's no chance an incidental fight breaks out. This could be a really cool thing or a really negative thing for PvMP.

This would function just as it does for players, and what's more would likely share the same rules for the missions on the player side. The major difference is that the space can be occupied by up to 12 monster players at the same time. There are a number of missions in the space, each with a daily completion limit and timer. Mithril coins to reset.

Same concerns as above. I'm curious about the renown payouts as well- hopefully not significantly more than quests. It would be weird to have significant chunks of renown available for PvE.

Additional and supplemental - because this is a later in development effort we might also need to rework the rewards in the general experience.

On a slightly different thought, for population it would be awesome if you could tie in Keep Flips, Slayer QUESTS (pick up at Grams/GV, turn them back in, this way will be harder to abuse by farmers), and other map-oriented PvE into PvE rewards (LI XP being the big one). Even better if you could do this with Creeps as well (account wide with LI XP, for example). I'm certain many PvMPers and even new folks would spend more time PvPing if there was a small form of PvE reward that allowed you to grind while PvPing, even if it is not as efficient as grinding PvE missions/farming Sword Halls.

Agreed and it is something that we need to solve.

I love PvMP, but it always feels like a PvE race to get my gear finished in time to PvMP before the new set of PvE shinies comes out, and then the Moors is dead as everyone is grinding again. If you could allow PvMPers to grind some while PvMPing (even if at a slower rate), that'd be awesome.

This is one of my ultimate goals.

I like these words, looking forward to seeing what this means.

Us too!

Appreciate your work!

We appreciate your patronage.

[SSG_Orion]

So the last couple days it's sounding like 33.2 and 34 (BtS) will be very close in release? When it was first announced I didn't expect 34 until much later this fall, a couple months after 33.2, which I expected within a couple weeks once it hit Bullroarer. But your post and others make it sound like it's all going to be around the same time. Confirm?

No, not confirmed at all.

[SSG_Orion]

Cutting the mastery corruptions to 1/6th would absolutely cripple creep damage, please reconsider this. Our base mastery is so low already and these are our main way to boost it.

Not if the blessings make up for the value lost.

[SSG_Orion]

Maybe this was discussed in another post but here he never mentioned he would give strong base stats to creeps. It seems that his plan is to redistribute the stats that corruptions currently provide to the clan benefits, meaning that if you do not affiliate to a clan you will be weaker than before. Please correct me if I am wrong or if I am missing something...

Spot on...

and I added a bit about how we are thinking these blessings would be given and changed in the future.

[venyos]

Battlefield Changes

Forward camps, housing the entrances to the Delving of Frór are abandoned. The gateways into the Ettendeep are dormant.

The Elf Camp on the eastern side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

The Orc Camp on the western side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

Orion, your work is great, thank you!

What about rez-circles, they will return to old locastions (they was where Orc, Elf camps now).
What about moving Coldfields outpost to old position (bottom of map, near GV)
What about moving Arador's End outpost to the top of the map, near Gram, when it was in original map.
And what About retunrn 5-th outpost, in the left-bottom side, when now arena. before update 8, there was 5th outpost, called Plains of Gramsfoot Outpost
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Pla...msfoot_Outpost

So. Thank you.

[SSG_Orion]

What about rez-circles, they will return to old locastions (they was where Orc, Elf camps now).
What about moving Coldfields outpost to old position (bottom of map, near GV)
What about moving Arador's End outpost to the top of the map, near Gram, when it was in original map.
And what About retunrn 5-th outpost, in the left-bottom side, when now arena. before update 8, there was 5th outpost, called Plains of Gramsfoot Outpost
https://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Pla...msfoot_Outpost

So. Thank you.

Rez circles will stay where they are for a bit longer.
Coldfells outpost will not return yet.
Neither will Arador's End.

And all changes will be discussed as they come available.

[Degelhil]

Thank You Orion for all of your work

- So if monsters can enter a mission - could they also enter an instance? Maybe with freeps? Like a "Team Deathmatch" instance? 6v6 ?

- Are there any plans for a better use of the arena? Events around it? Protected 1vs1?

- Plans for a map reset when one side held the map completely for X minutes?

[Hilawolf]

The Elf Camp on the eastern side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

The Orc Camp on the western side of the bridges of Tol Ascarnen is rebuilt. The flag capture for the bridges is returned.

Monster Player Changes



These are changes that we are discussing actively and if we move forward on them will move into the In Development section when they are ready for implementation. These are not guaranteed to see addition to an upcoming Bullroarer.

Monster Player Missions Version 1
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a different experience to earn commendations and rank without immediately entering the battle in the Ettenmoors. Unlike player missions, the idea is that these missions take place in iconic areas of the game world where players have caused some distress to the monster population and you've been tasked by leadership to help fix the mess with up to 11 other monster players. The first target for these missions is likely Urugarth, part of the Carn Dûm cluster of instances.

Monster Player Missions Version 2
The goal with this is to provide monster players with a similar experience to the free player side of missions where the spaces are instanced and solo and duo based experiences.



Monster Player Allegiances
After the addition of the clans and parsing data for the updates to blessings, we are considering the introduction of allegiances to the monster players. Allegiances would, you guessed it, be tied to different clans available and have a 20 level reward system built around the allegiance to that clan. Your first clan allegiance is free but sets back your ability to join another clan by 2500 points. But fear not, points are earned through the monster player mission system @ ~100-150 points per mission. Additionally, you can find the badges that are used to increased your standing with a specific allegiance from standard monster play drops albeit at a very, very reduced rate. The goal is that achieving the max rank of an allegiance takes ~28 days for your first and ~30 for subsequent days without using mission resets. Rewards will be discussed more when we move out of the discussion phase of this potential development. The blessing would ALWAYS be the boon gifted for reaching Rank 1 of any allegiance.

More to Come...

I'm not done yet... so this is the tease of things to come. I think there is enough to chew on with this post. At least for a little while.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for all the great work, I was just dipping my toes into PVMP when OC and EC moved, looking forward to the move. Please don't tie progression in the allegiance system to the mission system. I don't want to have to do PVE content to make my toon better.

[Hayden102]

Re-Subbed

Thankyou for the time and effort

[Blotch]

Spot on...

and I added a bit about how we are thinking these blessings would be given and changed in the future.

Thanks for your feedback!
It does feel like a nerf because you'll reduce the amount of stats that we get from corruptions but I have to wait until testing to see if I am right.

[Spilo]

It means that the blessings are taking the weight of and bulk of the corruptions stats as a baseline boost for the monster player.

Interesting, hopefully the variances between the clans aren't too crazy in terms of overall stats. I was hoping corruption variance was gone for good, not replaced with something else that introduces variance by another title. I will reserve judgement until I see what the numbers look like...

This would function just as it does for players, and what's more would likely share the same rules for the missions on the player side. The major difference is that the space can be occupied by up to 12 monster players at the same time. There are a number of missions in the space, each with a daily completion limit and timer. Mithril coins to reset.

This scares me, my question is still, what about PvEing in a PvP zone? Did we try to draw PvMP population in only to suck them into a PvE grind outside of the actual purpose of the Ettenmoors? This has the potential to have a significant impact on action.

Monster Player Allegiances
After the addition of the clans and parsing data for the updates to blessings, we are considering the introduction of allegiances to the monster players. Allegiances would, you guessed it, be tied to different clans available and have a 20 level reward system built around the allegiance to that clan. Your first clan allegiance is free but sets back your ability to join another clan by 2500 points. But fear not, points are earned through the monster player mission system @ ~100-150 points per mission. Additionally, you can find the badges that are used to increased your standing with a specific allegiance from standard monster play drops albeit at a very, very reduced rate. The goal is that achieving the max rank of an allegiance takes ~28 days for your first and ~30 for subsequent days without using mission resets. Rewards will be discussed more when we move out of the discussion phase of this potential development. The blessing would ALWAYS be the boon gifted for reaching Rank 1 of any allegiance.

A lot to unpack here:

1. 20 level reward system, would this be for rewards like cosmetics/titles? If so, cool, sounds like typical PvP game monetization. If it gives store buffs or other combat modifiers, that's more P2W.

2. The point system being tied through... PvE in a PvP zone with significantly reduced rate. Very troubling.


I'm not sure, really. A lot of these changes sound nice, but could also be disastrous with a certain implementation- especially concerned on the Missions and skeptical of the stat changes from blessings until I see what it's going to look like. You should monetize PvP with cosmetics/titles etc. by actually PvPing or, at the very least, PvEing within a PvP area that encourages combat/engagements from between sides.

Thank you again for your communication.

[Fulgurix]

Thank you for all the work that's been done so far. So if i read it correctly will be introduced even more PvE in a PvP environment...please don't do this. Instanced pve missions in my opinion would go in contrast with the purpose of the Ettenmoors, which is 'go out there and fight!'. While the starting experience is brutal in some ways right now and can be improved, it's CRUCIAL for new players, as this is the best way to learn and improve over time, by facing other players.

[SSG_Orion]

Interesting, hopefully the variances between the clans aren't too crazy in terms of overall stats. I was hoping corruption variance was gone for good, not replaced with something else that introduces variance by another title. I will reserve judgement until I see what the numbers look like...

Think of it like this. You have a corruption trait ribbon. That ribbon is currently split into 12 slots. You currently have 70 pieces that can effectivly fill those 12 slots.

What we are discussing effectively breaking the ribbon into 70 slots, filling between 30-40 of those slots with value from the blessings and allowing you to fill in the remaining value as you see fit.

This scares me, my question is still, what about PvEing in a PvP zone? Did we try to draw PvMP population in only to suck them into a PvE grind outside of the actual purpose of the Ettenmoors? This has the potential to have a significant impact on action.

I share some concerns. There will be no loot drops. The only value will be completing the missions.

A lot to unpack here:

1. 20 level reward system, would this be for rewards like cosmetics/titles? If so, cool, sounds like typical PvP game monetization. If it gives store buffs or other combat modifiers, that's more P2W.

Here's an example of what we are discussing:

Base Clan Enhancement (Blessing)
Unique appearances
Access to new clan l skill available when tribal trait is slotted
"Unique potion to enhance damage to race type:
Tarkrip=Men
Ongburz=Hobbit
Blogmal=Dwarf
Krahjarn=Elf
Scara-pack = Beorning
Shelob=Hobbit
White Hand=Men/Elf
Unique Clanl trait contribting to a tribal set bonus; unique title
Access to new damage oils related to c

2. The point system being tied through... PvE in a PvP zone with significantly reduced rate. Very troubling.

I'll say this...I don't think it will be tied to just PvE for very long.

I'm not sure, really. A lot of these changes sound nice, but could also be disastrous with a certain implementation- especially concerned on the Missions and skeptical of the stat changes from blessings until I see what it's going to look like. You should monetize PvP with cosmetics/titles etc. by actually PvPing or, at the very least, PvEing within a PvP area that encourages combat/engagements from between sides.

The chance of failure is always inherent when you try to effect change. It should never deter you from trying. If you fail, learn from that failure don't make the same mistakes and improve all the time.

Thank you again for your communication.

More than happy to keep communication flowing.

[Atomos]

Wow, I love these changes! I really like the idea of the clans and missions. Urugarth and Carn Dûm are some of my most favorite instances in the game. Given the setting of the Ettenmoors, I think the Carn Dûm cluster of instances would be perfect for the missions.

I have one question that may not have been mentioned already: Since the new audacity gear are useable in PvMP only anyway, would it be possible to remove the level requirements for them? This might mean that the level scaling system for PvMP may have to be changed so that it no longer scales gear.

The reason I'm asking this is because level-scaled freeps are currently basically cannon fodder. If they could use gear with stats that are appropriate for fighting creeps, I think this would go a long way to making freepside more welcoming for freeps of any level. The level-scaled freeps would still not have the progression in legendary items, trait points, virtues etc. that freeps at level cap would have, so they would not be OP.

I'm just wondering how feasible this idea would be to implement?

Thank you, as always, for the great work you have put into PvMP!

[Brolad]

Thank you for the update and for all the communication so far.

If I may offer my view on this, I would say it would be best to keep things as simple as possible. The missions sound nice but at the same time they leave me worried for smaller servers. As you mentioned that Crickhollow is "popping" in your stream, I'd like to add that the best way to support it in this tendency is to give players reasons to come out and be around, and to give new players the means to win fights. We need everybody out and roaming. Even though the missions would not take much play time, they still go directly against this goal and every small bit might count.

I believe the most important issues to address, if player retention is the goal, are (listing them in no particular order and hoping I will not miss too many):

• Creep vs freep balance, which you and OnnMM have done a lot of good work on. Ideal scenario would be to keep mitigation values lower, incoming damage stat around 0 and rebalance around that but that would mean a lot of work.
• Find a way to balance different freep classes more closely than they are now (champ too far ahead of everything else, LM/warden/burglar/captain falling behind in individual class strength for PvMP purposes).
• Improve the situation for new players by decreasing the power level difference between PvMP gear tiers, giving low rank creeps more skills and some starting corruptions/traits, etc. Imo this is the simplest problem to solve of these all, which, sadly, still does not make it a piece of cake.
• Change infamy/renown/commendation reward system to encourage players to take part in smaller fights outside of the main zergball. Crucial for the quality of action on larger servers.
• Encourage players to spread around the map, perhaps via PvE objectives and some map/mobility changes.

[UselessSmurf]

There is too much PvE in the Moors as is. I mean it's meant to be a PvMP zone, you should focus on that.

Get rid of all PvE aspects and lower rank requirements. Missions are just going to lead to people who wouldn't normally PvMP, to come out and do missions for rank, and never actually engage Monsters/Freeps in combat.

You know what brings people to PvMP? Actual PvMP, let those little PvE puppies do it on freepside in their multiple maps they have to do it with.

Sorry but it's not a good idea imo, and it's very shortsighted.