Some Guardian Thoughts

[SSG_Orion]

Guardians hold a significatnt role in The Lord of the Rings Online. As the initial and only true tank at the launch of the game, the guardian was initially a real meat-shield of character having strong mitigations and high morale that allowed them to take the beating for the rest of the Fellowship. Time marched on and the Guardian has seen some changes, but nothing of a significant magnitude outside of the largest change that affected all classes with the introduction of the trait tree system.

Now, this is a very early peek into what I am thinking about for the Guardian mostly taken from my playthrough of the class at this point. None of these suggestings are set in stone - everything is very fluid and malleable and we are not looking at these changes coming to game any time before 2023 at the earliest. I wanted to start the dialogue early and start explaining some of my thoughts.

On Skill Plays

As a general note, I personally feel that the number of skills avaiable for all classes in LoTRO can be overwhelming. Yes, for most of us who have played the game for a very long time we are so used to the number of skills does not seem too much, but to newer players it certainly can gt overwhelming fast.

For Guardians, the initial four skills provide us a modicum of insight into what the class can do and as we progress we open up more and more functionality and flexibility to our chosen character, but I think that there are some areas of improvement. As an example, I want to highlight a personal pet peeve of mine - the skill flyout window.

I am thinking that I am going to make a tweak to the way that this works in the following manner - get rid of it for Guardians.

How?

I'm glad you asked. Skills that require a specific response effect like Retaliation, Shield-swipe, and Whirling Retaliation are really meant to chain together off of the combat event occuring from a previous skill. Regardless of when they are earned they are an improvement over the other initial skills you earn as a Guardian, Sting and Guardian's Ward. So, moving forward, I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved.

But Why?

Clutter and quality of life, imho. At early levels this might not seem that important but as we level and earn more skills our bar becomes ever more cluttered with skills that can only be used under certain circumstances. Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute. I don't think that anything is lost by combining the skills in this manner.

What?

What happens to the traditional skills? They would either a) be removed and only appear instead of Sting)Improved), Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut, or b) be replaced by new response shifting skills for parry, aoe parry, and block responses.

That'a mt initial thoughts on the way that some of the skills play for Guardian and the tactic I am taking for refining some of the class functionality.

Anything else?

Sure, this is a larger question that is going to require more discussion for certain.

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

[Rino90]

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

Hello Orion! Thank you so much for the team's attention to the Guardian class change!

Guardian originally had a very interesting concept of "Overpower Stance". According to the description, the guard threw back the shield in order to put more power into the blow with his weapon. Perhaps it is worth developing this idea as a source of guardian DPS? When activating the stance, the guardian removes the shield behind his back, losing the armor bonus but retaining other stats, and takes his main weapon in a two-handed grip, receiving significant damage bonuses. Even now, when attacking with a one-handed spear without a shield, the animation of the halberd is used, maybe you should do the same for other weapons? I understand that in this case there will be a problem when using daggers, but I think this can be solved, for example, by completely limiting their use for the guardians. It seems to me that in this way it will be possible to achieve diversity in the way damage is dealt between fighter classes, and demonstrate offensive potential more vividly and clearly than using "sword and board" to deal damage

[Bio-Flame]

I suggest that OnMacMahal should be in charge of the Guardians revamp.

It's unfair that Minstrel got all the...amazingly good work that OMH did and the other classes don't get the opportunity to get the feel of his amazing comunication skills, care for the class and attention to feedback.


Truly, every class should get his treatment.



It's not fair if the other classes don't get to feel OnnMacMahal's magic touch and superior comunication skills and sincere listening to the comunity.

[Kotal]

those are some very interesting ideas. i am indeed very much used to all these skills only being usable conditionally, and it has been a little bit of a pet peeve for me as well. i really enjoy the dps line of guardian, but it sometimes get held back by just that mechanic. the new raid set was a HUGE QoL improvement for guard dps, but that will not be permanent. also the fact that you only ever had 6s to use these response skills made the rotation even more vulnerable to lag spikes, potentially making you unable to use any of your skills.

RE dps line with sword and shield: at the moment, a setup like that is very awkward, and ends up with a lot less dps and probably the most clutter of skills that guardian could reach. not sure how these changes would make that less of an issue, but the currently preferred 2h weapon setup has imo the best balance between base skills vs. conditional skills.
additionally, i personally can only see sword and shield dps guardian becoming preferred over 2h with these or some of these changes:

- HUGE damage buff to shield skills, but that could end up very awkward
- access to break ranks from blue line for red
- potentially a dps version of fortification as well
- adding a combat damage mod to shields, so that sword and shield ends up matching (or overtaking) 2h weapon mod
- reducing the amount of trait points necessary to spend for some of the vital skills for a build like that (i.e. shield smash)
- possibly merging some of the traceries together, since dps guard is already pretty much packed
- either buffing or removing the DoT aspect of dps guardian, since rn the balance between direct damage and DoT is 4:1, and having shield skills in the rotation as well is gonna reduce bleeds even more

so overall: thank you so much for sharing your ideas on the future of the class, means a lot to all of us that you are actually asking for feedback that early on! really looking forward seeing more of this!

[Zalizi]

My gut reaction is: a huge reason I have so much fun playing LOTRO is the class complexity. That was one of the high points of weapon swapping before. So my first take is I thoroughly enjoy guardian the way it plays. Don't mess with it significantly; change is bad. But I'll shove that response into a deep, dark corner of my mind and entertain the idea brought up here. I will mainly focus on what this change will impact in the name of fewer skills, and in the context primarily of tanking.


Firstly, there is a difference between cutting back on less or unused skills, and introducing interchanging/upgrading skills. For the former, skills like Vexing Blow, Sweeping Cut, Retaliation, Bash would be a small QoL loss to drop completely but would remove 4 skills without significant impact. I don't like the goal of having less skills for the sake of it, but cleaning up some rarely used things as long as they aren't unique would be reasonable.


As to the latter, it brings up the complication of when multiple skills become available off of 1 response. I'm not sure how you're thinking of handling that. Remove the flexibility of the chain and have it be 1 skill per stage? That would not be ideal for parry responses as they are both CDs I prefer to not have to always use one before the other. For block chain it would be fine I suppose to push Shield-taunt after Shield-smash. There wouldn't be much difference there.

Going into this more specifically, I will preface with I don't entirely follow your idea because you mention Sting, Sweeping Cut, and Guardian's Ward. Only Sting is a response proc (25% chance for block and parry), then Shield-blow is guaranteed block and in red you have Force Opening to guarantee parry.

Something to consider is that this change means those opener skills cannot be useful on their own. Right now guard has Shield-Blow as the block response opener, which would be fine to replace. It's a pure ST attack. However replacing Sting (your corruption removal) and Guardian's Ward (which doesn't provide a response anyway, but provides a buff to keep up) could be annoying. Ward less so, since you can plan around it. But losing the CR would be very detrimental. Swapping the use of these such that Sting doesn't proc the chain and is a normal CR skill and Guardian's Ward starts the block/parry response would be one solution BUT Sting starts block the block AND the parry chain.

So it seems like where that puts us is: parry response stays as is with their own skills. Block chain replaces in place, but off of Guardian's Ward. Which brings me to the last concern: class complexity. For parry response, this doesn't matter because its parry/Sting -> Redirect/Catch a Breath. But for block responses you have block/Sting/Shield-blow -> Shield-swipe -> Bash ->Shield-smash/Shield-taunt. So when you're moving through that rotation quickly, you *want* to be able to get to Bash then proc back at the start of the chain. Having the skills replacing one another forces it to be purely linear and removes that ability to be more efficient. Effectively keep up with 2 places in the cycle at a time.

For ex: 1Sting (procs) -> 1Shield-swipe -> 2Shield-blow -> 1Bash -> 1Shield-taunt -> 2Shield-swipe -> 2Bash -> 2Shield-smash

[Bagrash]

Can you please not dumb Guardian down? Every other change is welcome

[Bio-Flame]

Can you please not dumb Guardian down? Every other change is welcome

If the Dev in charge is Orion, guardians will probably be in good hands.
On the other hand, if the Dev in charge is the Dev behind the recent Minstrel debacle and egregious changes....well....good luck.

[SSG_Orion]

Can you please not dumb Guardian down? Every other change is welcome

Can you further explain dumb down? It's arelative broad statement.

I don't believe that linking the existing skill chains together in a more consistent string of button presses is "dumbing the class down." Do you?

[SSG_Orion]

If the Dev in charge is Orion, guardians will probably be in good hands.
On the other hand, if the Dev in charge is the Dev behind the recent Minstrel debacle and egregious changes....well....good luck.

I understand your frustration. You made this very clear on the general discussion forum. However, this response is antagonistic, unhelpful, and rude.

[Zenbry]

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

Back when you could weapon swap I used a hybrid of both 2 hand sword and sword shield for certain dps fights, since utility wise shield bash was useful for large aoe fights. I would be very welcoming if somehow sword and board was able to be brought to the same level as 2 hand sword however I like the availability or option to play either one.

As for cleaning up some of the skills I agree there are 2 or 3 skills on guardian that could be done away with or changed like vexing blow or changing engage to deal damage or just giving its slow and taunt to another skill and deleting it. Still, I have never looked at guardian and thought of them having too many skills, even when I first started the game and overlapping skills with their upgraded effect just leads to same button pressing which gets old pretty fast IMO. Perhaps adding deferent ways to unlock or build responses would make it more interesting?
The class does feel clunky and anything but like a tank in early game (level 1-35 ish).

On another note when you are working on guardian could you look into why after double pressing catch a breath (which cuts its own animation just like all other upgraded immediate skills) after a parry response causes a bug where war chant cooldown reductions for parry response skills causes the visual for the skill cooldown to be reduced but not the actual cooldown leaving a window where the skill looks like it can be used for is still on CD for 15 more seconds. Its not 100% consistent however I've never had that issue if used after a block response.

Something guardian would need to improve their tank role is more fellowship support. the amount of group healing and damage reduction along with last stand and the morale multiplier that captain has still makes them a superior tank in almost every way. Not saying nerf captain by any means, just give guardians a bit more utility or better cooldowns than +25% BPE or 100% block chance even though most raid bosses cant be BPE'd. Guardian is at a point where they aren't completely useless and a lot of tank players 1 trick guardian so thats why they are in 6 mans/raids again.

Thanks for being open to our feedback and overall look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[Bagrash]

Guard has probably the best skill flow of all classes, what he needs is another guaranteed parry response opener and more dps for some skills and/or more raid utility in red. Blue guard is fine anyway, but i dont see why you would change anything that isnt even neccessary. Yellow guard is just a big mess and a meme anyway, could just get rid of it

[Bagrash]

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

No, it would completley change the rotation to shield based skills, because their base damage is way higher then the red dps skills, if i wanna use the tank rotation im gonna play blue
And a big Twohander also radiates supremacy, obviously superior to weak sword-shield guards

[Vehdren]

Guardian to me is quintessentially a Sword and Shield class for me so I think making that its main dps line is a solid idea. If people want to play a 2 handed melee dps class, we have one called Champion. I've always thought redline Guardian was bad although I'm sure some people like it. Obviously this would require significant a increase to damage to shield skills.

The Guardian skillset is pretty tight and hasnt suffered like some other classes that have many skills that add nothing to gameplay and burden the play with unsatisfying cooldown stacking (I'm thinking of Champion here). One thing I would add is that Shield Swipes animation should be halved. Either that or moved in the chain(*place it after Shield Smash and giving it a +% Parry Chance buff might be a good option). Getting to Bash and Shield Smash takes too long imo.

I would also like to see threat generation restored to how it was before it updated with Big Battles or something similar. I think those changes were a profound mistake. Taunts and threat copy should not be the mainstay of threat generation.

[Boridre]

I have been playing this game since sub only, Gaurd is hands down my favorite class. I use both block and parry responses in blue spec. I would love to see some form of simplification to the rotation. It can get rather daunting trying to keep up with everything sometimes. This does not mean i want it to become too easy. Just a simplification. And i already know, let the flaming begin

[gildhur]

First, I appreciate the early chance for feedback on these ideas before they get off the ground.

For Guardians, the initial four skills provide us a modicum of insight into what the class can do and as we progress we open up more and more functionality and flexibility to our chosen character, but I think that there are some areas of improvement. As an example, I want to highlight a personal pet peeve of mine - the skill flyout window.

I am thinking that I am going to make a tweak to the way that this works in the following manner - get rid of it for Guardians.

How?

I'm glad you asked. Skills that require a specific response effect like Retaliation, Shield-swipe, and Whirling Retaliation are really meant to chain together off of the combat event occuring from a previous skill. Regardless of when they are earned they are an improvement over the other initial skills you earn as a Guardian, Sting and Guardian's Ward. So, moving forward, I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved.

I am ALL for eliminating the skill popup. Do it for Captains and Burglars next, please. We all put the skills on the bar in the order we need them. The "Auto Skill Bar" is just screen clutter.

However I'm not sure I understand the need to then replace Sting and Ward on our bars. Given the number of responses Guards get from BPE events, wouldn't that mean two bread and butter skills would be unavailable a large portion of the time? Because of Sting's low CD and fast timing, it's used to pad DPS. Ward is our baseline defense buff; if it keeps disappearing because we're getting response skills instead, will we be able to keep up our defenses like we need? Maybe giving it a longer cooldown would compensate?

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

I don't think I like this idea. I like that switching to Yellow (or Red, I guess ) from blue requires a different weapon. The LI system pretty much requires it anyway, so you wouldn't be saving us any work. We'd just be keeping the shield and swapping to a DPS weapon instead of a tank one. I like using 2H for DPS (or yellow tanking) with Guard. I prefer DW on Champ, so it's different for me, though not everybody plays it the same.

Also, a reminder about something from the previous brainstorming thread: Clarify what exactly War-chant does. It doesn't say it adds threat, but it puts the red threat symbol over everyone's head and pretty clearly affects threat in some way as nearly everyone turns to me when I use it. I think I would prefer a yellow trait that gives it threat. Make the base skill just AOE DPS, but with the trait it adds a threat component, that way we can trait in yellow specifically for DPS or tanking.

[PrinceAladdin]

Hey Orion,

Once again, thank you for your time and energy in refining the Guardian and other classes. I personally do not think the proposed changes are helpful. Would appreciate your consideration of my thoughts below:

While I appreciate your intentions of cleaning up the clutter and quality of life, I think this is probably near the bottom of the list of things the Guardian needs at this time. Guardians have very little skill bloat, and as others have mentioned, the flow of the Guardians response moves is relatively smooth, at least in the tanking specs. The following moves can be considered redundant or useless: (1) Retaliation because Whirling Retaliation is better in almost all situations, (2) Let Fly because it is incredibly weak, you have to be stationary, and there is little utility of a ranged move that does not force aggro, (3) Stagger because enemies rarely face away from the Guardian, and (4) Shield Wall because it redirects too much damage to the Guardian, requires you to be stationary to use, has an incredibly long animation, and deactivates too frequently. I personally just don't have these skills on my bar for those reasons, but I think your post doesn't clearly delineate those skills as the target of your changes.

In terms of streamlining response skills to either morph into the next skill in the chain or be replaced/removed, this severely limits the freedom and flexibility of Guardian rotation. Sting is literally the cornerstone skill in the Guardian's rotation, so removing the ability to use it at will to proc parry responses will obliterate the Guardian's raid capabilities. Furthermore, being able to use Guardian's Ward at any time allows Guardians to refresh their tactical mitigation and block/parry buffs at any time. This is critical when getting ready for an incoming wave of adds or ensuring Ward is up between pulls. Another important note is that the next skill in the response chain is not necessarily an improvement over the previous, and there are many times where I would prefer to restart the chain rather than finish it out. The proposed changes would eliminate these freedoms and further restrict the Guardian into a unidimensional tank compared to the other end-game tanks.

For these reasons, and many more, I earnestly implore you not to proceed with your proposed ideas. Happy to discuss further as well. Thank you again for your time and energy, Orion!



P.S. As a side note, you posted in another forum location to gather more feedback about why players feel like there is a communication issue between the players and developers. I would like to address that here by using this thread as an example. You created a Guardian thread a few weeks ago asking players for their thoughts about Guardian, then several weeks later, you publish this thread that lacks any of the suggestions we gave you. This is at its core why we feel like there is a communication issue. You asked what problems there were, we told you what they were and how to fix them, but then you responded with a proposition that excludes all feedback provided and instead addresses your own concerns with the class. I think players as a whole are frustrated by these kinds of incidences where, for example, we constantly explain how Missions are causing so much lag and that we'd appreciate you working on the lag instead, but then you guys come out with even more missions that will probably cause even more lag.

[Bio-Flame]

I understand your frustration. You made this very clear on the general discussion forum. However, this response is antagonistic, unhelpful, and rude.

We can't have this conversation without acknowledging that your co-worker treated your customers very poorly and rudely. It all started there.
If you understand my frustration and the frustration of most Mini players, then you must know that what I said isn't rude: it's the truth. You co-worker did not do a good job, not on Mini changes and most definately not on comunication.



If I was rude, then I would argue that your co-worker was even more rude and antagonistic: he wasted your customer's efforts, time, good-will and good faith.



Orion, things is: you have come to this thread with an open mind. You want feedback and you even said nothing is set in stone. That is commendable.
I even said that Guardian will be in good hands if you're the Dev in charge of it.
But not all Devs have had your attitude, unfortunately.


I don't think this is being rude. Harsh, probably, but not rude. Especially not after what he did to Minis despite our sincere feedback.

[Kotal]

We can't have this conversation without acknowledging that your co-worker treated your customers very poorly and rudely. It all started there.
If you understand my frustration and the frustration of most Mini players, then you must know that what I said isn't rude: it's the truth. You co-worker did not do a good job, not on Mini changes and most definately not on comunication.



If I was rude, then I would argue that your co-worker was even more rude and antagonistic: he wasted your customer's efforts, time, good-will and good faith.



Orion, things is: you have come to this thread with an open mind. You want feedback and you even said nothing is set in stone. That is commendable.
I even said that Guardian will be in good hands if you're the Dev in charge of it.
But not all Devs have had your attitude, unfortunately.


I don't think this is being rude. Harsh, probably, but not rude. Especially not after what he did to Minis despite our sincere feedback.

idk what you're on about. the mini changes were the best thing that happened to the class in the past at least 5 years. and communication was amazing, we never had such detailed patch notes on any class whatsoever. i'd be happy if OnMacMahal did the guardian changes!

[DoRonRon]

The "art" that was threat management before HD and traits was certainly a dumbing down. Then any plonker in the pug skraid with a taunt could "pull" with none of the means to survive.

It was bad when it was only the Warden to worry about but now, we get all sorts of valared n00bs with such skills caste into the late game.

But I quit playing with them, only solo now.

I enjoyed the time we got radiating bleeds and the mass spawns of Arganaith and the half hour surviving in Talath Urui Arena (no drops btw). When that went away returned to Axe and Board, we are of similar minds perhaps? But not as far as skills, on every class I want to be able to deliver my choice of skill as I see fit, not restricted by build or stance, though can accept a difference in their strengths as a result.

The Heavy Shield is iconic of the Guardian, one with a two-hander is a poor cousin of a champion. I play the champ if I want to play a champ /shrug. Used to be we had the flexibility to play every class that suited our play styles. Reducing that flexibility with double craft guilds, currency caps and now RT we seem to be heading toward only one or two being full manageable in multiple roles and the dev impetus to now make each class multi functioning over us choosing to play the class that suited the task in hand. No, I don't want the chore of swapping bound to account gear amongst main stat chars! Each have their own gear for me, no server transfers to mail my gear off-world either, lol. I dislike the "bonus" concept because of the countless times it's been abused with the "devs" seemingly unaware, trapping players into legacy items and must haves for raid slot.

Every class I play gets to trait for 5% to critical, except the Guardian. Are we left without just to justify spending valuable trait points on all those other classes? Give us the same or set the nominal cap to 30% for all. It's why I stick with the shield, a shame it's intrinsically tied to a consumable for efficacy is the pity. Little point going through (or learn) the convoluted bleed dynamics when landscape mobs are dead from the shield chain. As we see with the Minstrel now, no point in learning those dynamics for 139 levels. You aren't going to ramp up landscape to require it or the money goes away.

I don't want Sting to do anything other than remove a corruption, I loved it's old quirks just because it was different to every other class. Tying it to a damage trait/tracery and a RNG effect/trigger has it become just another spam "rotation" (hateful concept) skill. May as well roll your face along the keyboard. An issue for every class, if not quite yet for some perhaps?

When we used to buy our skills with limited resources we had to read what we were buying and weigh up the merits of one over another. It was pandering to the lazy that had them auto bestowed and that critical step on understanding them disappear out the window. You guys did that. But you ever get hoodwinked by those who fail to realise the consequences of what they are asking for.

I used to run with 6 LIs to situationally swap to bring my best to the group's efforts. Can't do that now because your colleagues are stuck whacking moles over bringing back a well maintained pitch to play on. There is no longer the will to have more than one singlehanded axe and a belt nor a whole extra gear set filled with vitality essence; utter nonsense, so I can spam taunts (threat copy +900%).

Perhaps I could welcome using one skill for it's prime purpose and gain some buff, but I can only think the secondary and tertiary will take precedent if the primary reason has not, yet, occurred. Turning it from a skill that we choose to apply for the situation that presences itself to one we "need" to apply as a matter of course.

It's only the muppets who forget (or never learnt) they have a skill to use in a given situation. You really should get some balance from looking at the gameplay offerings of the game's community managers to show just how engaged they are with such technicalities. Also what makes for official streams. Windows into SSG engagement with the game if this is all you have on "show". More "Rude" to have such on display and something for player to follow to their cost.

You could remove the "Tradable" on instance drops I do solo ofc.

I'll figure out what I can from any changes, but it being the fourth time, I tire of it. Especially when the end is usually an up sticks run for the hills by the dev when time runs out.

[Frisco]

How?

I'm glad you asked. Skills that require a specific response effect like Retaliation, Shield-swipe, and Whirling Retaliation are really meant to chain together off of the combat event occuring from a previous skill. Regardless of when they are earned they are an improvement over the other initial skills you earn as a Guardian, Sting and Guardian's Ward. So, moving forward, I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved.

But Why?

Clutter and quality of life, imho. At early levels this might not seem that important but as we level and earn more skills our bar becomes ever more cluttered with skills that can only be used under certain circumstances. Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute. I don't think that anything is lost by combining the skills in this manner.

What?

What happens to the traditional skills? They would either a) be removed and only appear instead of Sting)Improved), Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut, or b) be replaced by new response shifting skills for parry, aoe parry, and block responses.

That'a mt initial thoughts on the way that some of the skills play for Guardian and the tactic I am taking for refining some of the class functionality.

I think this will have to be very well done to work. Because there are places in the game where doing this has been great, and places where it's a little annoying. Runekeeper's Sustaining Bolt? It's nice to have the heal even without the free cast. It's a choice you make to sacrifice attunement for the heal. At the same time, it's slightly irritating to have to watch closely, since there's no popup--it's just a faint white outline around the skill alerting you that it's free.

Conversely, I don't think making Captain response skills always available has improved gameplay. The non-response versions are so weak that it feels like a waste to use them. At least they have a popup to let you know when they're available, but I use them so seldomly without a response that they may as well be grayed out. At least that way I won't hit them on accident.

Guardian works really well as it is. I don't notice the skill bloat, but then again I've been playing a Guard for 15+ years. On the other hand, can we make a class that's both engaging for veteran players but not overwhelming for new players?

So with Guardian skills, I think we'd have to make both versions of the skill something we'd actually want to use, especially since we get so many defeat responses--will anyone use the non-response version? Answer should be yes. But at the same time the response version has to be enough of an improvement for us to want to wait for it. And if it's too much of an improvement, then we're back to just waiting for a response and having to clutter our screen with a popup. It's such a fine line, and I can't really think of a way to balance it. But that's why I'm not a developer.

For example, if Sting was just a DPS skill, and Sting with a parry response was what gave it the corruption removal, there would be no reason to use Sting without the response. Same if Guardian's Ward only gave bonuses after a response. Even if the bonuses were reduced without the response, you wouldn't want to overwrite the better version or have the skill on cooldown when you got a response.

Currently, there's a reason to use every skill we have. Sting removes a corruption, Ward gives defensive bonuses, parry response skills open up our reflect/smashing stab, block responses open up stuns/aoe threat/Break Ranks, etc... And it's fun to have a little complexity in an otherwise simple class. But I don't even think it's that much complexity to have skills grayed out without responses. It's easier to hit a skill when it opens up than to intuitively figure out flyouts or special conditions that will give improved versions of the skill. The only thing this would improve is the number of skills we have...but there's lots of room on our toolbars. Is this prep for a console version of LOTRO?

Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute.

I don't understand this. The skill flyout is entirely optional--I don't think I've ever pressed the skill on the flyout, I just use it as a visual reminder. You just hit the skill using the toolbar and it's exactly the same. The only skill I can think of that *must* be pressed on the flyout is Minstrel's Perfect Ending, isn't it?

[Bagrash]

The "art" that was threat management before HD and traits was certainly a dumbing down. Then any plonker in the pug skraid with a taunt could "pull" with none of the means to survive.

It was bad when it was only the Warden to worry about but now, we get all sorts of valared n00bs with such skills caste into the late game.

But I quit playing with them, only solo now.

I enjoyed the time we got radiating bleeds and the mass spawns of Arganaith and the half hour surviving in Talath Urui Arena (no drops btw). When that went away returned to Axe and Board, we are of similar minds perhaps? But not as far as skills, on every class I want to be able to deliver my choice of skill as I see fit, not restricted by build or stance, though can accept a difference in their strengths as a result.

The Heavy Shield is iconic of the Guardian, one with a two-hander is a poor cousin of a champion. I play the champ if I want to play a champ /shrug. Used to be we had the flexibility to play every class that suited our play styles. Reducing that flexibility with double craft guilds, currency caps and now RT we seem to be heading toward only one or two being full manageable in multiple roles and the dev impetus to now make each class multi functioning over us choosing to play the class that suited the task in hand. No, I don't want the chore of swapping bound to account gear amongst main stat chars! Each have their own gear for me, no server transfers to mail my gear off-world either, lol. I dislike the "bonus" concept because of the countless times it's been abused with the "devs" seemingly unaware, trapping players into legacy items and must haves for raid slot.

Every class I play gets to trait for 5% to critical, except the Guardian. Are we left without just to justify spending valuable trait points on all those other classes? Give us the same or set the nominal cap to 30% for all. It's why I stick with the shield, a shame it's intrinsically tied to a consumable for efficacy is the pity. Little point going through (or learn) the convoluted bleed dynamics when landscape mobs are dead from the shield chain. As we see with the Minstrel now, no point in learning those dynamics for 139 levels. You aren't going to ramp up landscape to require it or the money goes away.

I don't want Sting to do anything other than remove a corruption, I loved it's old quirks just because it was different to every other class. Tying it to a damage trait/tracery and a RNG effect/trigger has it become just another spam "rotation" (hateful concept) skill. May as well roll your face along the keyboard. An issue for every class, if not quite yet for some perhaps?

When we used to buy our skills with limited resources we had to read what we were buying and weigh up the merits of one over another. It was pandering to the lazy that had them auto bestowed and that critical step on understanding them disappear out the window. You guys did that. But you ever get hoodwinked by those who fail to realise the consequences of what they are asking for.

I used to run with 6 LIs to situationally swap to bring my best to the group's efforts. Can't do that now because your colleagues are stuck whacking moles over bringing back a well maintained pitch to play on. There is no longer the will to have more than one singlehanded axe and a belt nor a whole extra gear set filled with vitality essence; utter nonsense, so I can spam taunts (threat copy +900%).

Perhaps I could welcome using one skill for it's prime purpose and gain some buff, but I can only think the secondary and tertiary will take precedent if the primary reason has not, yet, occurred. Turning it from a skill that we choose to apply for the situation that presences itself to one we "need" to apply as a matter of course.

It's only the muppets who forget (or never learnt) they have a skill to use in a given situation. You really should get some balance from looking at the gameplay offerings of the game's community managers to show just how engaged they are with such technicalities. Also what makes for official streams. Windows into SSG engagement with the game if this is all you have on "show". More "Rude" to have such on display and something for player to follow to their cost.

You could remove the "Tradable" on instance drops I do solo ofc.

I'll figure out what I can from any changes, but it being the fourth time, I tire of it. Especially when the end is usually an up sticks run for the hills by the dev when time runs out.

I can see why you play alone

[Drarin]

Guardians hold a significatnt role in The Lord of the Rings Online. As the initial and only true tank at the launch of the game, the guardian was initially a real meat-shield of character having strong mitigations and high morale that allowed them to take the beating for the rest of the Fellowship. Time marched on and the Guardian has seen some changes, but nothing of a significant magnitude outside of the largest change that affected all classes with the introduction of the trait tree system.

Now, this is a very early peek into what I am thinking about for the Guardian mostly taken from my playthrough of the class at this point. None of these suggestings are set in stone - everything is very fluid and malleable and we are not looking at these changes coming to game any time before 2023 at the earliest. I wanted to start the dialogue early and start explaining some of my thoughts.

On Skill Plays

As a general note, I personally feel that the number of skills avaiable for all classes in LoTRO can be overwhelming. Yes, for most of us who have played the game for a very long time we are so used to the number of skills does not seem too much, but to newer players it certainly can gt overwhelming fast.

For Guardians, the initial four skills provide us a modicum of insight into what the class can do and as we progress we open up more and more functionality and flexibility to our chosen character, but I think that there are some areas of improvement. As an example, I want to highlight a personal pet peeve of mine - the skill flyout window.

I am thinking that I am going to make a tweak to the way that this works in the following manner - get rid of it for Guardians.

How?

I'm glad you asked. Skills that require a specific response effect like Retaliation, Shield-swipe, and Whirling Retaliation are really meant to chain together off of the combat event occuring from a previous skill. Regardless of when they are earned they are an improvement over the other initial skills you earn as a Guardian, Sting and Guardian's Ward. So, moving forward, I am considering replacing the skills Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut when the correct combat reponse is achieved.

But Why?

Clutter and quality of life, imho. At early levels this might not seem that important but as we level and earn more skills our bar becomes ever more cluttered with skills that can only be used under certain circumstances. Additionally, I think that the disruption in the tradition skill bar by initializing the skill flyout causes an unnecessary break in the traditional APS for players because it requires an awkward key combination or drifting mouseclick to execute. I don't think that anything is lost by combining the skills in this manner.

What?

What happens to the traditional skills? They would either a) be removed and only appear instead of Sting)Improved), Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut, or b) be replaced by new response shifting skills for parry, aoe parry, and block responses.

That'a mt initial thoughts on the way that some of the skills play for Guardian and the tactic I am taking for refining some of the class functionality.

Anything else?

Sure, this is a larger question that is going to require more discussion for certain.

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

I might just not be understanding what you're trying to get at, but I don't really see how your recommendations address your concerns, or maybe I just disagree with your initial premise.

I have never once considered Retaliation, Shield-Swipe, or Whirling Retaliation to be improvements over String, Guardian's Ward, or Sweeping Cut, or that they were ever intended as such. These skill serve entirely different functions. The response skill don't do anything except open the next skill, but Sting is our only corruption removal, Guardian's Ward buffs our defences, and Sweeping Cut when playing dps puts on a bleed. Other than an increase in base damage, and a "general vibe", they don't seem related in any way. If we now lock Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut behind needing BPE responses, this can get infuriating when you need to do something, but don't have the appropriate response to do it. This would make the class more annoying for people to play, rather than more fun.

Switching from 2h to 1h+shield for dps would frankly annoy me. I've already made an LI for a 2h dps, I don't want to do it again.

Don't get me wrong, Guardian's definitely have some problems. I just think these particular concerns are perhaps the least important. Some other items I find more pressing:
- Tanks in general have too many stats they need which contribute to their role. DPS generally needs a mastery, crit, finesse, and vitality (4). Healers need outgoing healing, crit, vitality, and maybe a bit of finesse (3-4). Tanks need vitality, tactical mit, physical mit, block, parry, evade, incoming healing, crit defence (in theory), resistance (I guess? It seems to be a common stat for tank gear, so someone clearly thinks we need it), and a bit of finesse (particularly for some captain taunts that can be BPE'd) (9-10)
- Yellow line could honestly probably get the mini/beorning treatment of making it a utility tree. It has a lot of useful traits, but no real identity of itself.
- Guardians, for a class described as "a real meat-shield of character" and "high morale", generally has the smallest morale pool among all other tanks. This is largely because other classes get a morale modifier in their tank classes which allow them to reach high numbers for the same stats.
- Vexing Blow needs some love. It currently doesn't do much other than being another aoe skill.

PS. If you think Guardian's have too many skills, have fun when you get to Lore master

[SSG_Orion]

I might just not be understanding what your trying to get at, but I don't really see how your recommendations address your concerns, or maybe I just disagree with your initial premise.

Very initial feelings and suggestions.

I have never once considered Retaliation, Shield-Swipe, or Whirling Retaliation to be improvements over String, Guardian's Ward, or Sweeping Cut, or that they were ever intended as such. These skill serve entirely different functions. The response skill don't do anything except open the next skill, but Sting is our only corruption removal, Guardian's Ward buffs our defences, and Sweeping Cut when playing dps puts on a bleed. Other than an increase in base damage, and a "general vibe", they don't seem related in any way. If we now lock Sting, Guardian's Ward, and Sweeping Cut behind needing BPE responses, this can get infuriating when you need to do something, but don't have the appropriate response to do it. This would make the class more annoying for people to play, rather than more fun.

To be clearer, the skills would only change if the response occurred. It might not be Sting, Guardian's Ward, and sweeping cut that change but new "generic skills" for Parry Response, AoE Parry Response, and Block Response. I'm noodling. The chain would remain intact or expand.

Switching from 2h to 1h+shield for dps would frankly annoy me. I've already made an LI for a 2h dps, I don't want to do it again.

Fair point, if this change were to occur we would need to either allow complete refunds on the LI or leave 2-hand intact - it was a query.

PS. If you think Guardian's have too many skills, have fun when you get to Lore master

All classes have a ton of skills that can likely be compressed.

[Ealdian]

Let's start with things that are not actually a problem:
1)The Guardian's Red line is not and it shouldn't be on par with a DPS class. Cause of that no one will ever get a RED Guardian for a T3-T5 Raid, so any changes that will be made to the Red line only affect Solo content and PvP.
2)The number of Guardian skills is manageable as it is now and, to be honest, it's on the low side compared with other classes.

The real problems:
1) Block and Parry ratings are too high to be realistically caped (especially the partial B/P chance & mitigation).
2) Block/Parry/Evade as mechanic it's broken since the Raid Bosses attacks/skills are bypassing B/P/E, which renders useless 2/3 of the Guardian big Cooldowns (Juggernaut & Guardian's Pledge).
3) Redirect can not be timed properly due to lack of a reliable Parry proc skill in the Blue line.
4) Lack of Damage Reduction Cooldowns compared to other tank classes (Damage Reduction being the only mechanic that actually works to withstand the Raid Bosses attacks/skills at the moment).

Few ideas:
1) Make Juggernaut a Damage Reduction Cooldown
2) Make Force Opening available in the Blue line
3) Eliminate the time window for Redirect after Retaliation is used (same as Smashing Stab - until the skill is used or being out of combat for 10s).

I think those are the core problems Guardian has at the moment.

[Belnavar]

I think the proposal you make is good. It achieves the same end in terms of gameplay, but with fewer skill icons, and is a cleaner way to approach this gameplay mechanic. The only potential downside is if this means more skills are on cooldown, making rotations more difficult. I think that can be addressed, however.

For what it's worth, I also dislike the skill flyout window, and I generally don't use it. I'd rather see an animated effect or something that tells me the trigger has activated, and then click things on my normal bars.

One comment you made I find worrying, however, and I think this is the source of some of the comments here about fears of "dumbing down" the game:

As a general note, I personally feel that the number of skills avaiable for all classes in LoTRO can be overwhelming. Yes, for most of us who have played the game for a very long time we are so used to the number of skills does not seem too much, but to newer players it certainly can gt overwhelming fast.

I know this doesn't apply to your suggestion for Guardian (which I don't see in any way as "dumbing down"), but, as a general comment, I really hope we don't see the number of skills in the game heavily reduced, because one of the main attractions to me about LOTRO (and DDO) compared to other MMOs is the skill complexity (which often requires a large number of skills). While I get your point about it being overwhelming for new/er players, LOTRO lacks the dynamic combat of many other MMOs with fewer skills, and I've often found that most of the MMOs with a lot less skills (10 or less, in some cases) become boring quickly. The one exception for me was WildStar, due to the very dynamic combat with constant telegraphs and movement, etc. While I'd love to see LOTRO's combat become more dynamic, I think any approach of reducing skill counts needs to be done with considerable care. We did see some of this with Helm's Deep (where there was, in my view, mostly unjustifiable uproar), so I do think it can be done in a tactful way that strikes the right balance between accessibility and complexity. Your proposal on Guardian is a good example of this.

I am thinking that the DPS line for the Guardian would shift to sword and shield play over two-handed sword. What are Gurdian's thoughts on this?

I would kind of like this, but the gameplay would have to change dramatically (and we could do with more aggressive shields, with built-in spikes). I'd kind of like what we find in some other games where you could charge forward with your shield to ram opponents, damaging them and pushing them back.

-Bel