SSG and Value Downscaling--it's time!

[wolfjoy]

Your first piece of "evidence" that the LOTRO code was running the risk of bugs or performance issues, was the observation of a character with 1 million morale.

Your most recent piece of "evidence" in that regard, is that a completely-different game ran into integer-overflow issue and had to radically re-scale to avoid bugs. No mention there of performance issues, per se.

Before we assess your latest "evidence", may we assume you've abandoned your earlier assertion? 1 million morale doesn't overflow a 32-bit integer. You'd need about 2 billion for that.

Moving from one assertion to another, without a proper disposition of each, in turn, is known as the Shifting Ground Fallacy.

> Your first piece of "evidence" that the LOTRO code was running the risk of bugs or performance issues, was the observation of a character with 1 million morale.

You're already strawmanning by misquoting him:
> Isn't it (well past) time for SSG to incorporate a game wide reduction of numerical values? Given how poorly this game runs, I'm shocked it hasn't been done already--especially given how left unchecked, number calculations can cause any number of bugs.

He is talking about how poorly the game already runs, which might be exacerbated by ridiculous numbers, and somehow you managed to twist that into "the code was running the risk of performance issues", when performance issues are present everywhere.
Do talk me through the steps you did take to end with that wording given his exact quote.


> Your most recent piece of "evidence" in that regard, is that a completely-different game ran into integer-overflow issue and had to radically re-scale to avoid bugs. No mention there of performance issues, per se.

There's a reason why at least 2 of the biggest current MMORPGs, WoW and FFXIV, have both opted to squish their numbers across the board, or did they just do that to keep their employees busy and for prettier numbers alone?


> Before we assess your latest "evidence", may we assume you've abandoned your earlier assertion? 1 million morale doesn't overflow a 32-bit integer. You'd need about 2 billion for that.

It's freaky when a single person talks in plural using "we".

And do point me towards him specifically talking about integer overflow as a definite cause of performance issues, and not just, you know, a potential and undefined risk by bloating numbers with each new update.


> Moving from one assertion to another, without a proper disposition of each, in turn, is known as the Shifting Ground Fallacy.

I love it: a person who intentionally misquotes someone else + who talks in plural despite being a single person is now lecturing about fallacies.

[Hierona]

Yesterday I saw a level cap character with 1M morale.

That is ridiculous. Seriously.

Isn't it (well past) time for SSG to incorporate a game wide reduction of numerical values? Given how poorly this game runs, I'm shocked it hasn't been done already--especially given how left unchecked, number calculations can cause any number of bugs.

If a max level character has 1M morale, I shudder to think what some raid bosses have. Jesus.

C'mon SSG...you can't say you are doing everything to fix the game performance if you are ignoring a very obvious issue.

Actually, my tank has around 2,2 milion hp, and it is not a problem at all. Stats doesn't matter cause the stats go up for all the mobs too and incoming damage. The only thing that is needed is levels having less xp so you can level a bit faster through the game. It takes ages to get to endgame.

remember when instances like Ost Dunhoth, Helegrod and such had unique rewards? yeeeeeeah...... I hate scaling loot. Not only because it is unimaginative, but because it scales awful

Best thing still imo would be a nonscalable game. This means the same values will stand from lvl 1 to lvl 140, and then preferable the 130 stats. Those are big enough to have a bit variety in incoming damage and outgoing damage, while also fitting in the UI. This would mean that a lvl 10 char would run around with the same an endlevel char would, if they got the same itemlevels. Gear would be from a certain level to another. For example, remmo gear would be unequipped, and not equippable at lvl 135.

[monk_tbd]

> Your first piece of "evidence" that the LOTRO code was running the risk of bugs or performance issues, was the observation of a character with 1 million morale.

You're already strawmanning by misquoting him:

475M? That is...insane.

Honestly, I'm not surprised this game runs so poorly.

To simply disregard work that other (more successful) developers deem crucial to performance is extremely short sighted. This game has had enough of that mindset.

But that's just it, it's not just numbers...and how they affect the game's performance is very relevant.



You're assuming the poor game performance has nothing to do with the lack of value downscaling--you would be wrong.

It wasn't just that higher numbers could cause performance problems (which, it could), but also...the current numbers are just beyond silly.

Looks to me there is a lot of posts that directly equate large numbers to performance problems and the game running poorly.
People who know how math in computers work refuted these statements.

As for FF: Maybe the overflow mentioned in the slide was about overflowing the width of the graphic display and not the actual calculations?
Nowhere the FF slide did say anything about performance which most of us would relate to lag and not looks like clipped graphics. A math overflow is an error that - unless properly caught - would crash the game and I am sure we would have seen plenty of that right now and should be always easily reproducible in the same scenario.

The time it takes to do calculations is very likely quite insignificant compared to the time it takes to wait for database responses or client/server communication responses or other other needed wait states for data to properly calculate some AoE effect for everyone in the area. If the server has to wait just a few ms for some of the needed values it has a much larger impact than any number size for the actual calculation. The large numbers connected are IMO a complete non factor unless they cause errors. But it won't affect performance (unless they flipped to float math instead of integer math at one point but even that is likely insignificant compared to other factors)

[elvenes]

Looks to me there is a lot of posts that directly equate large numbers to performance problems and the game running poorly.
People who know how math in computers work refuted these statements.

As for FF: Maybe the overflow mentioned in the slide was about overflowing the width of the graphic display and not the actual calculations?
Nowhere the FF slide did say anything about performance which most of us would relate to lag and not looks like clipped graphics. A math overflow is an error that - unless properly caught - would crash the game and I am sure we would have seen plenty of that right now and should be always easily reproducible in the same scenario.

The time it takes to do calculations is very likely quite insignificant compared to the time it takes to wait for database responses or client/server communication responses or other other needed wait states for data to properly calculate some AoE effect for everyone in the area. If the server has to wait just a few ms for some of the needed values it has a much larger impact than any number size for the actual calculation. The large numbers connected are IMO a complete non factor unless they cause errors. But it won't affect performance (unless they flipped to float math instead of integer math at one point but even that is likely insignificant compared to other factors)

methinks you need to read the slide again, it clearly says calculations as the first point


over there, it DID affect performance. Show me facts of why it is impossible that it affects performance here too. Since you seem to have access to ssg code to tell us all how it is impossible. Armchair devs, sheesh.....

[monk_tbd]

over there, it DID affect performance. Show me facts of why it is impossible that it affects performance here too. Since you seem to have access to ssg code to tell us all how it is impossible. Armchair devs, sheesh.....

OK my bad. Looks like FF used 32 bit integer math and/or did some weirdo things in their calculations like upscaling to avoid rounding errors.

But overflows are NOT performance issues. They are bugs that usually would crash the game and - if you are lucky and they do not - would affect the outcome of said calculations. We would have noticed this. And again it would not affect performance.
Of course only if you equate performance with lag - as I would in this cases - and not stability.

[Giseldah]

All stat progressions are in 32bit floats. Only main stats calculations from these progressions result in 32bit integers. All ratings calculations happen in floats.

I don't see a problem for the near future.



Important for SSG is that they keep working on replacing old style stats with normalized stats. With all normalized stats it should be easy to do a stat squish. We're not there yet.
Non scaling features of the game are still blocking I think for a full range squish. Like non scaling instances. Localized squishing is possible.

[elvenes]

honestly.... our current numbers already can't even fit in the UI. Localized squish then would be good, especially lvl 140, if it's not possible to do so across the board.

[Giseldah]

honestly.... our current numbers already can't even fit in the UI. Localized squish then would be good, especially lvl 140, if it's not possible to do so across the board.

I think Throne was the last non-scaling raid? Levels after that should be possible to adjust. Skill power usage is one of things which should be addressed. It doesn't scale with the standard progression.

[elvenes]

Abyss and Anvil are also non scalable I think? at 115 and 120

[Giseldah]

Abyss and Anvil are also non scalable I think? at 115 and 120

Probably more important is that normalized stats were introduced with the Mordor expansion.

[bohbashum]

honestly.... our current numbers already can't even fit in the UI. Localized squish then would be good, especially lvl 140, if it's not possible to do so across the board.

If I could remove the last 3/4 numbers I'd be happy.

Just from a visual side. It's easier to compare numbers. Seeing what my heals / damage / taken is.

[egarthur]

methinks you need to read the slide again, it clearly says calculations as the first point


over there, it DID affect performance.

No, they said "resulting in bugs". It's ludicrous to equate that to "affecting performance". I reviewed the various official statements and commentary/reporting about the FFXIV stats squish, and "performance" was never cited as the reason. Sorry, but that dog don't hunt. There have been many games that have done stats squishes, and maybe one or more of those games did it, at least in part, because of performance issues, but the evidence you've provided so far, doesn't prove the case.

Will LOTRO run into some of the same overflow problems, and eventually need to do a stats squish? Maybe. Would it better to be proactive, rather than wait until overflow is actually occurring? Sure. I have nothing, in principle, against the idea of doing stats squish, at some point. But, as much as the proponents of stats-squishing would like to hitch their bandwagon to the "OMG fix the lag!" bandwagon, they're really separate issues. And fixing the lag has higher priority. So sorry, stats-squishing will have to take a backseat for the foreseeable future.

[Skyfoot_A]

No, they said "resulting in bugs". It's ludicrous to equate that to "affecting performance"...

But, as much as the proponents of stats-squishing would like to hitch their bandwagon to the "OMG fix the lag!" bandwagon, they're really separate issues. And fixing the lag has higher priority. So sorry, stats-squishing will have to take a backseat for the foreseeable future.

Because bugs don't affect a game's performance in any way, amiright? If I can't complete a quest because of a bug, is the game performing optimally? If I crash continuously is the game performing optimally? If some of my characters are locked out and unplayable (as seen in recent threads) is the game running smoothly? This isn't just about "lag" (which can mean a variety of things).

First, you didn't even take the time to read the thread and what other MMORPGs did to keep their games optimized (confusing a game director's statement for a customer "complaint" of all things) and now you're taking what was merely a suggestion from me into some stupid exercise of arguing what should be done first to fix the game. I never said x should take the priority of y. But make not mistake, it's all part of the same problem.

[Echoweaver]

I admit I'm pretty perplexed as to how Final Fantasy managed to produce an integer overflow. That there's some mighty big numbers even compared to the crazy stat values at LOTRO endgame.

It seems like the decision was made around Mordor to try to manage difficulty (or something) by adding a huge stat jump with the new expansion. It looked silly big then, and two more (I think) jumps later, it looks outrageously silly.

I'm pretty sure it's not likely to cause any performance trouble, so I doubt it's a big priority. But it is, well.... silly.

[ATomiX96]

Level squish wont ever happen, its way too much work to scale everything (including all the zones and mobs) and to actually get it right, other mmos have done it and it took them months/years to get it right, so I doubt SSG could do it given how little ressources they have.