U34 Preview 1 Feedback: Delvings

[CaerArianrhod]

Is this a realistic expectation of playtime to dedicate to earning gear commensurate to Tier 3 raid gear. Each player will need to make that determination for themselves. From a time investiture standpoint - I think if you compared the amount of time that raiders who have completed the tier 3 experience, they could more readily answer that question for you. We do have the metrics and we know that an appreciable amount of time goes into players getting through those initial tiers and eventually conquering the tier 3 threshold.

The appeal of the system will vary from player to player. Different players have different playstyles and objectives for their characters. It's our position that providing as many options to players as we can, so that the variety of play styles engaging with game can enjoy it was they want.

And no, I don't want to say anything along the lines of getting the decent gear from the chest because that is more bonus and evergreen pursuit of the system rather than the bread and butter. The bread and butter reward earning is the progression toward the gear that a player wants. Additionally, when BR comes back up take a look at the reward boxes.

I took a look into the boxes::
The reward of 4 x T10 delving missions at level 140. The same "junk" as in the last beta.
If you made any changes to the loot, either I can't see it (bad RNG) or it didn't make it into this beta.





Talking about "realistic expectation of playtime to dedicate to earning" and "The bread and butter reward earning is the progression toward the gear that a player wants"
I wrote already about the price for a piece of gear.
Now I looked at other things too, as I guess a lot of players will be interested in the new class essences and in the items for the essences.
To use them one will need either the new necklace and/or the new cloak and maybe even want to upgrade these items.

• To upgrade a necklace, a player will need: 12,500 writs!!!
  At best, this will need 250 successful T10 delving missions. And that is approximately 2,500 minutes (or 41 hours) - net playing time!
• To upgrade a cloak to max. upgrade level, a player will need 7,500 writs.
  At best, this will need 150 successful T10 delving missions. And that is approximately 1,500 minutes (or 25 hours) - net playing time!
• To get a "Gundabad Heraldry Recipe Selection Box" a player will need 4,500 writs.
  At best, this will need 90 successful T10 delving missions. And that is approximately 900 minutes (or 15 hours) - net playing time!

You didn't answer the question about average daily playtime of a player, so I will go with 2 hours and that means: 40.5 days (81 hours / 2) and with playing every single day.
Even in the best case: if a player does all 13 delving missions successfully at T10 every day, it will take 38 days of "dedicated playtime" in a row for these 3 items.
Double the time if a player plays a tank and healer and would like two different versions of the above items.
And this is only for T10. I don't wish to argue about if this is right, too much or too easy for T10. Here I just listed some numbers.

But I'd like to discuss whether 136 hours* (net time) of work for 3 items can still be called "dedicated playing" or whether it should already be called what it actually is, an unbearable grind.
Ad *): valid only for T6 with 30 writs per mission.
Doing all 13 delving missions ever single day without a break, a player will need at T6 63 days for those 3 items.

I highly doubt that the majority of the players will do that in that time frame (regardless if T6 or T10), because they are many other things in the game too, what players will play and do.

You said, that "Each player will need to make that determination for themselves."That is not true anymore with those numbers. SSG made the decision for the players already, because it is not a choice anymore between various options. The only choice a player have, is to think about the question: "Can I manage to get my items, and will I have enough time to enjoy my achievements before the next level cap increase, where all the effort is negated overnight?"

[CaerArianrhod]

Did some delving missions today in solo and duo:

Steps of Caranost (duo - T10/140 ):
The Scout at the end is nor really talkative. In fact, he refuse to talk to anyone. Mission impossible.

The Bridge to Caranost (duo - T10/140):
After entering the instance, the delving stone did not appear (we waited for 2 minutes). We had to leave in instance and start it again.

Sieg of Sirlond (duo- T10/140):
Still an incredible high amount of adds. Absolutely no chance to survive all time.
After being defeated, the mobs are roaming/staying at the player's respawn point.
Even successfully finishing the time (but being defeated), due to the high numbers of the mobs, it is not possible to reach the scout, as the mobs stay/roam between player's respawn point and the scout.

The Nettinglade (duo- T10/140):
We don't had any issues with this mission.

Crown of Caranost (solo - T10/140):
I don't had any issues with this mission.

[Bragolos]

I took a look into the boxes::
The reward of 4 x T10 delving missions at level 140. The same "junk" as in the last beta.
If you made any changes to the loot, either I can't see it (bad RNG) or it didn't make it into this beta.





Talking about "realistic expectation of playtime to dedicate to earning" and "The bread and butter reward earning is the progression toward the gear that a player wants"
I wrote already about the price for a piece of gear.
Now I looked at other things too, as I guess a lot of players will be interested in the new class essences and in the items for the essences.
To use them one will need either the new necklace and/or the new cloak and maybe even want to upgrade these items.

• To upgrade a necklace, a player will need: 12,500 writs!!!
  At best, this will need 250 successful T10 delving missions. And that is approximately 2,500 minutes (or 41 hours) - net playing time!
• To upgrade a cloak to max. upgrade level, a player will need 7,500 writs.
  At best, this will need 150 successful T10 delving missions. And that is approximately 1,500 minutes (or 25 hours) - net playing time!
• To get a "Gundabad Heraldry Recipe Selection Box" a player will need 4,500 writs.
  At best, this will need 90 successful T10 delving missions. And that is approximately 900 minutes (or 15 hours) - net playing time!

You didn't answer the question about average daily playtime of a player, so I will go with 2 hours and that means: 40.5 days (81 hours / 2) and with playing every single day.
Even in the best case: if a player does all 13 delving missions successfully at T10 every day, it will take 38 days of "dedicated playtime" in a row for these 3 items.
Double the time if a player plays a tank and healer and would like two different versions of the above items.
And this is only for T10. I don't wish to argue about if this is right, too much or too easy for T10. Here I just listed some numbers.

But I'd like to discuss whether 136 hours* (net time) of work for 3 items can still be called "dedicated playing" or whether it should already be called what it actually is, an unbearable grind.
Ad *): valid only for T6 with 30 writs per mission.
Doing all 13 delving missions ever single day without a break, a player will need at T6 63 days for those 3 items.

I highly doubt that the majority of the players will do that in that time frame (regardless if T6 or T10), because they are many other things in the game too, what players will play and do.

You said, that "Each player will need to make that determination for themselves."That is not true anymore with those numbers. SSG made the decision for the players already, because it is not a choice anymore between various options. The only choice a player have, is to think about the question: "Can I manage to get my items, and will I have enough time to enjoy my achievements before the next level cap increase, where all the effort is negated overnight?"

So about the leggings which were posted yesterday as a box reward. I think this is a problem, which relates to the problem discussed in the same post about the time it takes to earn something. Let's say I JUST handed in 1.500 writs, for which I played dozens of Missions, for a single piece of Armour, and in the next Mission I get literally the same item from a reward box RNG deity. Which then is worth nothing more than 3 writs (or, if I'm lucky, an alt needs it). That's a direct loss of 1.497 writs. I can already predict my own response to that happening: it'll take days or weeks to enter the game again. It also destroys the idea of playing more challening content to earn rewards, because as far as I can tell this reward could also come from a T1 chest (albeit with a lower chance).

A few suggestions how this can be prevented:
- Make it as it was in BR 1: increase the item level of the barter gear to 470 or higher, and keep the RNG gear at a lower level. In addition, increase the writs earned for destroying to 15 or 20. That would be a positive RNG, knowing you always earn something out of it. 3 writs is just ridiculous. And even if you got all 7 pieces of Armour during Delving playtime, you'd still have something to work towards, because the barter gear is better!
- Remove the Armour from the boxes and replace it with pieces of Jewelry, which right now cannot be bartered for. And make the writs per Mission a bit higher for all of the Tiers (that has to happen anyway).
- Create an Armour barterer like with the Raids, so if I got another pair of leggings I can get the chest more easily.

Thanks!

[Feuerhaar]

Feedback on missions:


The Ruins of Amon Firn

The Tearful Tomb

The Tombs of Gond Orchal


For the three missions from Dyvan at Scurlocs Farm, I was not able to choose a mission difficulty due to the placement of the stone.
Even though it did spawn upon entering the mission, I was't able to actually choose a delving difficulty, since upon moving towards the stone to interact with it, the spawn of the mission mobs got triggered and the delving stone disappeared.

It seems to me like the stone should be placed closer to our spawn point in the instance

[SSG_Orion]

But I'd like to discuss whether 136 hours* (net time) of work for 3 items can still be called "dedicated playing" or whether it should already be called what it actually is, an unbearable grind.
Ad *): valid only for T6 with 30 writs per mission.
Doing all 13 delving missions ever single day without a break, a player will need at T6 63 days for those 3 items.

I highly doubt that the majority of the players will do that in that time frame (regardless if T6 or T10), because they are many other things in the game too, what players will play and do.

You said, that "Each player will need to make that determination for themselves."That is not true anymore with those numbers. SSG made the decision for the players already, because it is not a choice anymore between various options. The only choice a player have, is to think about the question: "Can I manage to get my items, and will I have enough time to enjoy my achievements before the next level cap increase, where all the effort is negated overnight?"

If you find the length of time to acquire some of the top end gear in the game then clearly this is not for you.

There are 40 missions that have delvings available in them.

[SSG_Orion]

Did some delving missions today in solo and duo:

Steps of Caranost (duo - T10/140 ):
The Scout at the end is nor really talkative. In fact, he refuse to talk to anyone. Mission impossible.

I will look at this today.

The Bridge to Caranost (duo - T10/140):
After entering the instance, the delving stone did not appear (we waited for 2 minutes). We had to leave in instance and start it again.

There were some load issues that we were seeing that I fixed yesterday.

Sieg of Sirlond (duo- T10/140):
Still an incredible high amount of adds. Absolutely no chance to survive all time.
After being defeated, the mobs are roaming/staying at the player's respawn point.
Even successfully finishing the time (but being defeated), due to the high numbers of the mobs, it is not possible to reach the scout, as the mobs stay/roam between player's respawn point and the scout.

It this doable at lower tiers? Should only be about 4 mobs spawning in each wave.

I'll smooth those others out today.

[provamail10]

Haven't been on Bullroarer, but I'd like to ask if the delving system does only reward T3 gear or if we have inferior gear available (T1 or T2) at less price for those who don't need top-notch gear but decent one and don't have the time to run those instances that many times.

[Bragolos]

If you find the length of time to acquire some of the top end gear in the game then clearly this is not for you.

There are 40 missions that have delvings available in them.

I think he meant that the max number of Delving missions per day is 13. Btw I was positively surprised there are much more Missions than just the Missions in Andrath. More variety is always good.

Could you tell us if lowering of the standard Delving armour level to 467 (from BR 1 to BR 2) is intended, or will it be back at level 470 or higher when the Expansion goes live? Thanks.

[shazbaat]

In additions to some of the things mentioned above:

It would be nice to have actual descriptions on the tooltips for the debuffs so that we knew how things were supposed to be working. I feel like I could give better feedback on the mechanics if I knew exactly what was intended.

Bridge to Caranost seems to have the 3rd set of mobs placed on top of the 4th set, so you get a blank area between 2 of the gates and then 3 double mobs in the next section.

Steps of Caranost just feels "weird". The pathing mobs get stuck on gates and then teleport through them. Melee characters that get too close to the barricades get proximity aggro from mobs a mile away, but ranged characters don't. Mobs can't figure out how to path and just teleport through the floor in places, and some of the groups seem ridiculously huge and are only manageable because of the pathing bugs.

Finally, the 12 (7 default + 5 from mob auras?) dread at T10 is over the top and seems like a blatant attempt to guide people to the store to buy hope tokens which conveniently stack with the in game tokens. Even at lower tiers, people who are trying to push themselves a tier or two will be enticed to always run with the store tokens because they don't get wiped on death.

[Minimur]

Haven't been on Bullroarer, but I'd like to ask if the delving system does only reward T3 gear or if we have inferior gear available (T1 or T2) at less price for those who don't need top-notch gear but decent one and don't have the time to run those instances that many times.

I did get a purple level piece of amour, item level 467, that dropped from a tier 7 delving box, but I have not seen any purple amour pieces at the vendor.

[SSG_Orion]

I did get a purple level piece of amour, item level 467, that dropped from a tier 7 delving box, but I have not seen any purple amour pieces at the vendor.

There is no rare level armor on the barter vendors at this time.

[SSG_Orion]

I think he meant that the max number of Delving missions per day is 13. Btw I was positively surprised there are much more Missions than just the Missions in Andrath. More variety is always good.

Could you tell us if lowering of the standard Delving armour level to 467 (from BR 1 to BR 2) is intended, or will it be back at level 470 or higher when the Expansion goes live? Thanks.

Total number of delvings is only 10.

We are refactoring the gear to make it fit at the T3 level that we want it to arrive at.

[provamail10]

There is no rare level armor on the barter vendors at this time.

Will there be any at the final release? It would be very appreciated for casual players not interested in T3 gear and with less playing time per week.

[SSG_Orion]

Will there be any at the final release? It would be very appreciated for casual players not interested in T3 gear and with less playing time per week.

No rare armor is planned for the delving system.

[savetheroadtodoriath]

The items I saw with these 1500 writ tags were the necklace and cloak and initial upgrades as well as a maybe 3000(?) for the top upgrade so the final most desirable items are going to be involving serious engagement. Kind of ok with only one or two characters to play who's class has a natty essence or two on offer. That looks more like a 3 days, then another 3 and 6 and 3 and 3 and 6. With six or seven chars that's 5 months of commitment likely forsaking all else? I wonder if the RNG is delivering full range of gear slots or the trend of one or two. Chasing 2 pieces with standard role blind RNG won't be covering all those other slots if that is the case.
The purple pieces will provide that class essence slot though so that maybe enough. Teal then gold not so much to be gained but BiS with a choicer class essence perhaps.

I am kicking myself for not recording my too brief trip into BR#1.

For most of this game's history serious gear was limited to tries once a week and gated by RNG. A guaranteed piece of end game of your choosing every 3 days is by itself an extremely good rate for this game and really just about any MMO, but on top of that you randomly get gear from boxes in the process.

I have NO idea how anyone could complain this takes too long. Do you just want everything for free day 1?

[squirle]

Do the mission chainss from Rhona not have a Delving stone in them?
Only found 1 in Accursed flame so far. None of the spawned mobs aka all had Delving buffs.
With Tharbad tower ascent not completing. Won't switch to Return to Rhona. Killed the commander twice.



Ruins of Amon Firn. Completed, but no scout to port out

[provamail10]

No rare armor is planned for the delving system.

It wasn't the answer I expected, but thanks anyway for your openness and for the fast response.

[SSG_Orion]

It wasn't the answer I expected, but thanks anyway for your openness and for the fast response.

I should clarify - no rare barter gear is planned for delvings.

[SSG_Orion]

Do the mission chainss from Rhona not have a Delving stone in them?
Only found 1 in Accursed flame so far. None of the spawned mobs aka all had Delving buffs.
With Tharbad tower ascent not completing. Won't switch to Return to Rhona. Killed the commander twice.



Ruins of Amon Firn. Completed, but no scout to port out

Please bug these. I will pass them along to the designer.

[CaerArianrhod]

It this doable at lower tiers? Should only be about 4 mobs spawning in each wave.

I'll smooth those others out today.

Siege of Sirlond (solo T6/140):
I think I got the problem: and that is lying in this delving in the area and in the timing of the waves.
If a player can't kill a wave entirely (and that mean the spawn of a killed mob too), they are with each wave more and more mobs.
Because of the areal, some mobs do stuck at a corner, so one have to find them first, when the next wave is already coming.

Of course, one can die many times until the time is over and then just try to run to the scout. (and I did exactly that in solo in T6 ... well, kinda had to.)

[CaerArianrhod]

If you find the length of time to acquire some of the top end gear in the game then clearly this is not for you.

Maybe you're right, but because I do have a normal job, I really do not need a second one called LOTRO.
With that: I am just saying, that in the 15 years of playing LOTRO I have seen the reasons, why players leave the game, and one of them was the time you have to put into the game to get something as reward out.

It's currently 20-30 in that stretch of tiers which puts the total run count at about 50 to earn a piece of gear.

Can you look at that, please?
Because:

Total number of delvings is only 10.

There are 40 missions that have delvings available in them.

That is a bit confusing.... (I count 13, but I did not try all of them)

[SSG_Orion]

That is a bit confusing.... (I count 13, but I did not try all of them)

A delving is not a mission.

There are 40 missions. There are 13 at Andrath. There are more in Clegur, more in Herne, some in Tharbad, some in Lhan Garan, and even some in the south downs.

[CaerArianrhod]

For most of this game's history serious gear was limited to tries once a week and gated by RNG. A guaranteed piece of end game of your choosing every 3 days is by itself an extremely good rate for this game and really just about any MMO, but on top of that you randomly get gear from boxes in the process.

I have NO idea how anyone could complain this takes too long. Do you just want everything for free day 1?

Please do some math, before you say something like that. It is not about getting everything on the 1st day.

First of all it is only an endgame comparable gear, not endgame gear. Endgame gear is still the raid gear.
Second: You can not get a gear every 3 day unless you are doing T10 only, or you are lucky with RNG and the exact gear drops. (and that is my point in this whole discussion)
At the beginning, you will have to go through all delving tiers from T1 up to T9 to get the gem for T10. (I did not understand what Orion means with "Total number of delvings is only 10", but I think it means one can do max 10 delvings at a day).
After that, you can go every day for the T10 delvings. But you have to go duo, if you want to make T10 in a reasonable time.

Look at now the Necklace or the Cloak.
Depending on the new class essence for your class, one of them (or maybe both) is interesting for you.
If you are saying "endgame gear", that would mean you will upgrade your necklace or cloak.
Upgrade necklace: 250 delvings at T10, upgrade cloak: 150 delvings at T10.

So in the best case, you will need 25 days in a row for an endgame necklace.
From here on, you can do the math to get some number in case if you would like to equip more than one character with endgame gear.
All the changes that have been made over the last few years are going in the direction as if SSG are going to push us into the one-class player era. And with the delving system and its promise "endgame comparable gear for everyone" is this path further cemented.

[shazbaat]

The Ruins of Gaervarad: The delving stone is past the trigger point to start the mission, so you can't actually get the delving quest because the stone despawns before you get to it.

Dangerous Deliveries: scout is unresponsive at the end. Can't complete mission.

Does anyone know where to get the base cloak and base necklaces in game? The [Cracked Silver Grave Pendant] says it was recovered from the Black Grave, but I couldn't find any missions named that, so I'm guessing it's just flavor text.

[SSG_Orion]

The Ruins of Gaervarad: The delving stone is past the trigger point to start the mission, so you can't actually get the delving quest because the stone despawns before you get to it.

Thank you for letting us know.

Dangerous Deliveries: scout is unresponsive at the end. Can't complete mission.

Fixed this past afternoon.

Does anyone know where to get the base cloak and base necklaces in game? The [Cracked Silver Grave Pendant] says it was recovered from the Black Grave, but I couldn't find any missions named that, so I'm guessing it's just flavor text.

This has not been revealed yet.