@MoL High-elf and Stout-axe just thrown into Mossward starting intro?

[TesalionLortus]

Feels wrong. I get the "quicker more modern starting experience" but with those two it just feels super cheap and lazy. Their specific origin stories should take a precedent, right now they're treated as if they were just generic elfs and dwarves. (and if someone wants super quick assured, there should just be an option to choose Mossward without any intros, just like there is for SoA)

The heck, with stout-axe you see the Mordor hall at character creation screen but then there would be no connection to Mordor. And here it's fairly easy, the entire Escape from Mordor intro should play as usual, but instead of Ered Luin, you would have a stout-axe stumble upon Mossward (if there were some references in Gundabad content, then you would also have to remove familiarity between stout-axe player and Rethvárd )

High-elf would be harder but I'm sure still can be done. Have the Last Alliance sequence included, plus the coma, only then some variation on it, so the player high-elf chose to travel Middle-earth for a bit and they stumble upon Mossward on their way back to Rivendell. Or something.


I mean, not only would that make perfect sense, but there would be a hell of a ride and great impression made on players who chose one of those two - since they would run into Witch-king and/or all of the Nazgul in these epic intros but then WK and Nazgul are also in Before the Shadow.

[Trixie_Me]

Did you miss the options to select your starting experience when you created your characters? Options are Shadows of Angmar (should be the original), Before the Shadow and Skip.

[TesalionLortus]

Did you miss my point? Skip takes you to OG SoA experience, there is no BtS skip option, and BtS has Stout-axe and High-elf handled in a way that completely doesn't belong and you miss their racial specific stories (but you shouldn't, no matter whether that's in SoA or BtS)

[BigLotroFan]

Then just do the original intro and ride to mossward to quest there. No reason to force people to one path that don’t want it.

[Feuerhaar]

If you did the new introduction instance on any of those races you mentioned and read the questtext (especially when inside the smith hall), you might have noticed that their specific origin story from the old intro is referenced.

Each race has their own short paragraph in there about their reason for arriving in Mossward. High elfs amd Stout-axes get a "cliffnote" version of their intro without the Celondim/Thorins Gate part. Beornings also references the old intro to a lesser degree.


Your idea would make the introduction extremely long (High Elf and Stout-axe intros are already on the longer side). If you really want to play it that way you can already do the old intro and than travel to Mossward by stable-master and pick up the prologue there. The only quest you would be missing is that very first instance in Mossward.

[TesalionLortus]

"Would take too long" "no reason to force people" - again, read what I actually wrote, that's why I said there should be a "skip intro" version of Before the Shadow as well, not that hard to deduct that from what I've written. So, 4 things to choose from (SoA, BtS, SoA "skip intros" and BtS "skip intros"), instead of 3 checkboxes like now, but if someone doesn't care that it takes too long (because it's their first time playing perhaps? ) then they would be able to fully experience Stout-axe and High-elf specific context (in their specific heavily storied spaces that justify these "races" presence in the story in the first place)

What you mentioned, that' it's been referenced, is just a small snippet that offers a cheaper experience of these races to *the first time player* but they should be able to actually experience them in full. Oh, and yeah, totally forgot Beorning here, but true, Beornings should start in their own instanced space too - and then be send to Eriador (rather than Bree specifically) and stumble upon Mossward

You played it all already? Cool, that's why you should have the option to start in Before the Shadow regions but skipping the intros altogether. I guess the Before the Shadow option we got IS essentially the equivalent of the "Skip Intro" SoA version (the raid on Mossward takes literally 1-2 min so that hardly counts as relevant). What we're missing here is the actual full version of Before the Shadow starting experience - one that would include race specific stories at the beginning of it. Like seriously, new players who choose these highly specific races and wanna start in Swanfleet deserve to play as Stout-axe in Mordor, high-elf in Last Alliance and Beorning in Beorninghus, otherwise what's even the point of these races ??? Why should someone's starter experience regarding these races be inferior in Before the Shadow? That's what I'm asking - it's not ok, and it wouldn't have any downsides either if the game actually offered what I suggested (because you would have the option to just skip these longer intros, just like you can do it if you choose SoA starter experience)

LOTRO's quality is its storytelling and adherence to lore, meaning you don't just have some of these races out of a blue but each has its own context and starter experience that tries to justify their involvement in the story. If they threw that all out for Before the Shadow starting experience and you're fine with it (acting like I'm silly for pointing this out?), then they might as well include random very dark skinned Haradrim, Dwarfs and Elves at creation screen, throw in a short dialogue snippet inside a smithy roughly explaining you came from far away lands for reasons and call it a day. Because apparently anyone can randomly start at Mossward, no matter whether high-elf or Easterling, be given a short summary in a dialogue box, but not exactly rich in context and narrative, and it would all be fine now? Like it's not a cheapened approach at all?

Furthermore, the devs stated it was supposed to be this new, more modern starting experience, more comfortable and impressive for newbies - however, at the same time, they're robbing the said newbies of richer, in-depth take on these races and how they came to journey in the West. Just because they were too lazy to bother to fully include their unique instanced preludes, perhaps?

[Kaeneth]

I think what bothered me during the new epic more was how towards the end of it NPCs kind of talked as if my high elf had never been to Rivendell and didn't know who Elrond was. I wish high elves would have gotten some unique dialog there.

I did enjoy the new epic quest line overall though, especially the story telling section with Bregoleth, and seeing mention of the Bright Company again.

[TesalionLortus]

towards the end of it NPCs kind of talked as if my high elf had never been to Rivendell and didn't know who Elrond was.

Expected that might be the case, based on how they handled the rest. *sight*

I get the "wanna introduce alternatives!" but if they don't do it all the way through and don't want to bother with proper alternate race experiences where these are needed, then at least don't lie to your players (most of all the first timers, but also those who wanna roleplay believable characters), and label Before the Shadow starting experience as "narratively unsuitable" "narratively inferior" or "not recommended" for Beornings, Stout-axes, High-elves and ANY future races wit their own beginner instances and narrative flavors.

[Daguest]

I haven't played BTS (waiting for the LP version), but apparently one of the first NPC you greet mention the tutorial you didn't do if you are beorning/HE/stout axe. IIRC he asks where you come from, and you start thinking about what you should answer, before he cut you and say it's none of his business. Stout axe think about how they escaped Mordor and their difficult journey West, HE about being wounded at Dargolad and losing friends, Beorning about the defence of the Vales and the increasingly close threat of Goblins and others.

Seems "good enough" to me. I'm not sure a lot of people would have liked a 2h long tutorial.

[TesalionLortus]

Which was already mentioned here but the entire point was that new players choosing, say, High-elf, in BtS are outright robbed of these long, iconic experiences. That's not "good enough," that's a lower quality experience of these races offered. Besides, even as a veteran player, I would love the option to experience Last Alliance again if I choose Before the Shadow.

Anyway, read the thread next time, sometimes I feel like nobody does it. I said it multiple times that there should be a full option AND skip lengthy tutorials option for BtS. Plus, as Kaeneth pointed out, they should really take care to provide some of these races with alternate reactions from NPCs later on, in this case High-elf is super off.

[Daguest]

And I can assure you, for everyone who complain one way, you could find someone who would complain the other way.

They handled it the same way they handled the previous tutorial changes. In fact, they did it better. You don't experience the whole Skorgrim dying as a HE, or the Thorin company leaving as Stout Axe. Yet it's part of the story you play, since you play the elf/dwarf one.
I mean, it could be worse, this is (according to wiki) what you get as a HE who was never there when the Refuge was attacked :
"'You were at Edhelion, I believe? You remember Skorgrím's final attack on the old refuge, yes? Dwarves are scheming and self-serving, not to be trusted! " No, I wasn't there. I was in a coma ? Remember ?
As I mentioned I haven't played BtS but it seems the tutorial->epic connect better (at least for the early game) than it does with the HE/SA.

Eventually, they COULD have made it better, but that's a lot of work for little. Honestly I feel they did it a proper way. They give enough information for the player not to be confused by future dialogues, while still leaving enough to imagine your own backstory. Everything that will be referenced is mentioned, everything that's not isn't. A cinematic kind of thing would have been better (basically summing up the tutorial), but that would have been costly I imagine.

I think what bothered me during the new epic more was how towards the end of it NPCs kind of talked as if my high elf had never been to Rivendell and didn't know who Elrond was. I wish high elves would have gotten some unique dialog there.

I did enjoy the new epic quest line overall though, especially the story telling section with Bregoleth, and seeing mention of the Bright Company again.

LOTRO was never big on acknowledging your past/race until recently, and it is really baby steps. Like beorning in the vales or the Elf lady in mordor for HE. I don't think there is a single different dialogue related to your race for the entirety of the vanilla game up until at least south mirkwood. Reactive dialogue came relatively late. I remember how big the Galadriel class based "prophecy" was at the time. Still is (since some of them have yet to pass), despite all those years.

I remember when Lorien launched, and you would get instakilled as a Lorien Elf by the sentries. "Hey guys, I'm back home, you will never believe the kind of adventure I had !" *get shot in the face* "sorry pal, we forgot who you are, nothing personal. Grind that rep if you want to come in". They removed the instakill for everyone, but they didn't remove the rest. And most likely, can't (because there is probably no trigger for origin, so the game can't know that, only the race).

I fully agree with you though. I would have liked to have the player origin play a bigger role, even if it's small (like starting with some rep, or some dialogues). It makes little sense as to why a Lorien Elf can't literally enter their home without "proving themselves", or an Elf not knowing who the hell is Elrond. Especially a Rivendell Elf. "I'm sorry, who is this Elrond guy ? The master of Rivendell ? No way, I always thought it was Glorfindel !"

[TesalionLortus]

And I can assure you, for everyone who complain one way, you could find someone who would complain the other way.

So you can assure me that there would be players who would find it inconvenient that 1) I can choose to start in Mossward as High-elf who first gets to experience the Last Alliance and 2) they can choose to skip Last Alliance and also start in Mossward? Because two options would be provided? Makes zero sense. You can't assure me because that statement is bonkers :P Unless they're insane and don't know what they even talking about then maybe

They handled it the same way they handled the previous tutorial changes. In fact, they did it better. You don't experience the whole Skorgrim dying as a HE, or the Thorin company leaving as Stout Axe. Yet it's part of the story you play, since you play the elf/dwarf one.
I mean, it could be worse, this is (according to wiki) what you get as a HE who was never there when the Refuge was attacked :
"'You were at Edhelion, I believe? You remember Skorgrím's final attack on the old refuge, yes? Dwarves are scheming and self-serving, not to be trusted! " No, I wasn't there. I was in a coma ? Remember ?

Not really, both Stout-axe and High-elf have their own dedicated spaces/experiences (Mordor captivity/Last Alliance) and then are almost perfectly integrated in the dwarven/elven intros. Thorin company leaving wasn't important, Skorgrim dying important but not essential/bombastic to participate in, so if they got the dialogue right it would be perfect. Idk, maybe no one filled these in as bugs, and they are just not careful enough to identify them all for release. They do have the ability for alternate text for races in quest text, so it's not as troublesome, technically.

Also, bad example - while Amdir is ok due to his insignificance, Skorgrim and Dourhands were always a narrative failure in how it was communicated if you chose something else than a dwarf/elf. Now, even if you choose dwarf/elf, it will be even greater failure in BtS, unless they actually included some solid introduction somewhere in Cardolan.

Eventually, they COULD have made it better, but that's a lot of work for little. Honestly I feel they did it a proper way. They give enough information for the player not to be confused by future dialogues, while still leaving enough to imagine your own backstory. Everything that will be referenced is mentioned, everything that's not isn't. A cinematic kind of thing would have been better (basically summing up the tutorial), but that would have been costly I imagine.

A lot of work for "little"? High-elf and Stout-axe specifically are very modern bombastic experiences, you shouldn't just rob people of these experiences, people who wanna start these races for the first time in BtS. Why not include the High-elf/Beorning/Stout-axe tutorial and then have these races come to Mossward? Plus, what we have now, which would be renamed to "Before the Shadow - skip intros" starting option? They actually did that for SoA, so you can't tell me it's something unreasonable to ask for, and I would even argue that like it is now is stupidly confusing design - they give players options to customize starting location/experience, but it's hella confusing when you get to choose between...

Shadows of Angmar - where it tells you that you'll start in different places depending on your character choices, or something like that

Before the Shadow - where it says you'll start in a town of Massward

Skip intros - where it says you'll skip intros and get experience catered to your character choices (which what they mean by it is SoA but it's super cryptic)


Much clearer would be....

Shadows of Angmar

Before the Shadow

Shadows of Angmar (skip intros)

Before the Shadow (skip intros)



So they should reconsider and give these starting experiences back to Stout-Axes, High-elves and maybe Beornings, and then change how these options are described in the UI. Would be much better starting experience design

[Hastran]

So you can skip the High Elf and Stout axe Intro if you want by going to the new area (if you purchase it) or you can go play through the previous intro for the different races. Mt Human Captain went to Celondim after the Archet intro and played through tht starter area...and there wasn't a "special" change to that starter area for him. After the intro you can travel to Mossward to start there or you can travel to a different starter area....Bree...the Shire...Ered Luin with whatever race you picked. You have options. Pick one of the existing options and enjoy the game...spending resources creating A High Elf or Stout axe BtS intro seems like a huge wasted to appease a few people and I really believe very few people would see this as a priority.

[TesalionLortus]

Mt Human Captain went to Celondim after the Archet intro and played through tht starter area...and there wasn't a "special" change to that starter area for him. After the intro you can travel to Mossward to start there or you can travel to a different starter area....Bree...the Shire...Ered Luin with whatever race you picked.

Which isn't how it was designed, hence totally unimmersive and not every player would know how to do that, if they never played the game or these intros. So try again. And this still doesn't change the fact 3 options they provided are just confusingly described.

You have options. Pick one of the existing options and enjoy the game...spending resources creating A High Elf or Stout axe BtS intro seems like a huge wasted to appease a few people and I really believe very few people would see this as a priority.

At this point I feel like talking to a wall without ears and reason. These intros already exist, no need for "spending resources," just a few tweaks, and if they approached this like I suggest from the start would have been no trouble at all. You're just being unreasonable and an apologist when you don't need to be, and most of all, like a snowflake, you completely invalidate experiences of new players. Something that I always try to keep in the back of my mind too. So I am here to actually point that out, how unfair/confusing/amiss this is. I believe this is still not that terribly difficult to address that, they just gotta rename the current Mossward option to "skip intros" one and then include the normal one with High-elf/Stout-axe/Boerning instances attached.

[Hastran]

So new players who would have to first purchase BtS and then select the BtS intro at character creation (Shadows of Angmar is default) are going to miss out on the High Elf and Stout Axe original intro because they don't know any better? Your logic is flawed. The old intros are the default so you will have to take steps to avoid them. How many people jump into a game with a purchase when there are loads of free content? I would say not many. You are asking for a fix for an issue that is going to be almost nonexistent except for a few wanting things "their way" and it will not have any significant impact on truly new players.

And for those paying attention, all the other races are "thrown" into the Mossward intro too, so they miss out on Skorgrim and Amdir etc..... do they need a special "tweak" as well?

[TesalionLortus]

So new players who would have to first purchase BtS and then select the BtS intro at character creation (Shadows of Angmar is default) are going to miss out on the High Elf and Stout Axe original intro because they don't know any better? Your logic is flawed. The old intros are the default so you will have to take steps to avoid them. How many people jump into a game with a purchase when there are loads of free content? I would say not many. You are asking for a fix for an issue that is going to be almost nonexistent except for a few wanting things "their way" and it will not have any significant impact on truly new players.

Oh, really? So a new (or returning) player who heard about BtS and wanna purchase it specifically because it offers more modern experience is always gonna do a crazy research on wiki to make sure they get the best experience of their race, according to you? Highly doubt that. BtS was specifically done in a way to attract interest to the game and there are lots of people discovering LOTRO or returning to it for BtS. Also, even if that was true, that no new player would pick up a paid content, SSG said countless times that their idea here was to create a more modernized intro, one where you can jump into the game with friends and start in the same place in the world, which was a barrier for some people with the old starter zones - that's not about you, that's specifically about the newbies. So tell me again how my logic is flawed if their entire motivation was about the new/returning folk. They gotta earn their money and can't work on a huge content like this for nothing, so it's paid now, but I'm very confident, at some point, they will make this entire experience either completely free or there will be lots of give away codes with BtS. (Because that would fulfill the goal of there being a more modern experience available to new players from the get go, at which point my suggestion here will become even more crucial, when that happens - fixing confusing starter options info & attaching race-specific instances for BtS)

And for those paying attention, all the other races are "thrown" into the Mossward intro too, so they miss out on Skorgrim and Amdir etc..... do they need a special "tweak" as well?

You're clearly not paying attention because I already addressed this - how these two are way different/less significant. Amdir hardly pops up ever again. Skorgrim/Dourhands are never even properly introduced to other races, so once you run into Skorgrim at Gibilazan with BtS route it'll be pretty much the same result. (that's why they were able to include an alternate Epic with BtS in the first place and that's exactly why it leads up to Misties rather than immediately to Angmar) But the missing intros for specific "unique" races, which were very important narratively, very important as lore justifications and very immersive/scenic - massive loss.

Furthermore, it's not just about now but also about the future, which concerns all of us, newbies and veterans alike. Say, they introduce a playable Haradrim race at some point (or River Hobbits!) and following the usual pattern there will be some bombastic race-specific starter tale to experience and see how they came to be in Eriador, with a specific context and storyline attached to these races. You purchased the race but hey, if you wanna start in BtS - say, with a friend no less, that's why BtS - you're robbed of the experience of the race because the devs never bothered to do it the proper way for BtS.

[Hastran]

They aren't going to put the resources into a change to make a few people (very few people IMO) feel more immersed in the story. It simply will not happen, but you should advocate for it if it makes you happy to do so.

[TesalionLortus]

You keep acting like it would take tremendous amount of resources... for experiences that already exist.

into a change to make a few people (very few people IMO) feel more immersed in the story. It simply will not happen, but you should advocate for it if it makes you happy to do so.

Oh, ok? Then why do they even bother with quest text, why not just objectives? After all, it's just to make a "very few people" feel immersed in the story = "waste of resources"

I wouldn't point that out if it didn't seem like a glaring fault in game design here, so hopefully they address that at some point. Better to have newcomers face fair, clear experience/choice rather than a messy one, because otherwise BtS as fair, legit alternative to SoA hardly serves its intended purpose.