Remove Target Forwarding from PVMP

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

There's no way around it, no matter what side you play: Target Forwarding, especially Heal Target Forwarding (HTF) is exclusively a detriment to the quality of PVMP action.



Lets define it and then count the many reasons why it is a serious negative to the quality of PvMP for everyone:

Target forwarding is when you select an enemy or ally and route all your skill plays through said target, such that the skills land on whoever the selected person is targeting. While healing, if you target an enemy and use your heal skills, the heal skills will automatically be routed to the person they are attacking.




Heal-target-forwarding has been and continues to be a cancer on the moors because with absolutely zero effort or thought, all healers can instantly heal any target that is targeted before it even receives damage, rendering most coordination on the offensive side pointless, since there is no major advantaged gleaned from doing a surprise switch.

It also lowers the level of play for healing on both sides to a borderline-afk style of play where blindly mashing green buttons while target-forwarding through a key enemy DPS class or offensive support is the most effective route to healing in larger fights, making play boring for the healer.

Does SSG accept that blind target-forwarding is currently the most effective method of healing in PVMP?

What is even worse is how players are forced to try to defeat HTF: By having one member of your group be in stealth and have every DPS member of the raid target-forward through said stealthed player, who is forced to stay out of the fight and merely call targets.

Does SSG think this is an acceptable to force one group member to sit out the fight because of a broken gameplay mechanic?


For years this has been in the top 10 issues with PVMP for many people, and recently many different players from different background that haven't always gotten along have come to agree that its time for Target Forwarding to go. It is severely impacting the quality of gameplay in the Ettenmoors for both sides.

This is what we ask of SSG:

In short order, please disable Target-forwarding in the Ettenmoors PVMP only.... or eliminate its effectiveness such that the grievances listed above are addressed.



Join our movement here: https://discord.gg/q3AuP4jT2F

[Kate00]

There's no way around it, no matter what side you play: Target Forwarding, especially Heal Target Forwarding (HTF) is exclusively a detriment to the quality of PVMP action.



Lets define it and then count the many reasons why it is a serious negative to the quality of PvMP for everyone:

Target forwarding is when you select an enemy or ally and route all your skill plays through said target, such that the skills land on whoever the selected person is targeting. While healing, if you target an enemy and use your heal skills, the heal skills will automatically be routed to the person they are attacking.




Heal-target-forwarding has been and continues to be a cancer on the moors because with absolutely zero effort or thought, all healers can instantly heal any target that is targeted before it even receives damage, rendering most coordination on the offensive side pointless, since there is no major advantaged gleaned from doing a surprise switch.

It also lowers the level of play for healing on both sides to a borderline-afk style of play where blindly mashing green buttons while target-forwarding through a key enemy DPS class or offensive support is the most effective route to healing in larger fights, making play boring for the healer.

Does SSG accept that blind target-forwarding is currently the most effective method of healing in PVMP?

What is even worse is how players are forced to try to defeat HTF: By having one member of your group be in stealth and have every DPS member of the raid target-forward through said stealthed player, who is forced to stay out of the fight and merely call targets.

Does SSG think this is an acceptable to force one group member to sit out the fight because of a broken gameplay mechanic?


For years this has been in the top 10 issues with PVMP for many people, and recently many different players from different background that haven't always gotten along have come to agree that its time for Target Forwarding to go. It is severely impacting the quality of gameplay in the Ettenmoors for both sides.

This is what we ask of SSG:

In short order, please disable Target-forwarding in the Ettenmoors PVMP only.... or eliminate its effectiveness such that the grievances listed above are addressed.



Join our movement here: https://discord.gg/q3AuP4jT2F

Best Christmas Joke ever! No way you can be serious cause this is a non-issue and not one of the priorities that need to be addressed. LOL thanks for the laugh.

[bohbashum]

Well wrote out.

I honestky cant see a major downside to this. A few healers most notably defilers will need to engage with combat more.

There is still active ways like using F (i think is default) but it requires some action instead of it being passive.

Im all for it after thinking about it for a while.

[devdor]

Removing Heal target forwarding and skill target forwarding in the Ettenmoors only would be a step in the right direction in PvP.

HTF and STF is hurting PvP in group fights people should have to select each target they want to either heal or attack takes less skill to just heal through the opponents target.

Think this a great suggestion and should be taken into serious consideration for a positive change in the Ettenmoors

[Kate00]

Well wrote out.

I honestky cant see a major downside to this. A few healers most notably defilers will need to engage with combat more.

There is still active ways like using F (i think is default) but it requires some action instead of it being passive.

Im all for it after thinking about it for a while.

well lets remove target forward all together ... no need for dps to brainlessly kill targets. Infact theres no need for a raid assist window either. Sill good joke though.

[bohbashum]

well lets remove target forward all together ... no need for dps to brainlessly kill targets. Infact theres no need for a raid assist window either. Sill good joke though.

No.

Removing from PvP is different from PvE.

[Spilo]

Nearly ever RvR experience I've taken part in on Reaver/LM has been ruined by the completely brainless mechanic of people mashing buttons on one target. Completely ruins the entire design of the game. Imagine never actually choosing who gets healed or who to target. It's unfathomable to me that there's any sort of debate that this is a stupid mechanic, and it's truly horrendous when either RKs/Defilers are strong, as targets become literally unkillable without one shotting/full stack of inc heal debuffs.

/signed

[devdor]

well lets remove target forward all together ... no need for dps to brainlessly kill targets. Infact theres no need for a raid assist window either. Sill good joke though.

They should remove both skill target forwarding and heal target forwarding in the Ettenmoors make people select the target they want to heal or attack. Making people use their brains will be a good thing!

[Kate00]

No.

Removing from PvP is different from PvE.

I'm not saying it's not different from pve. What I'm saying is if we are going to do ignorant changes to the fundamental way the game works let's get rid of it all.

Of course, you are joking though.

[bohbashum]

I'm not saying it's not different from pve. What I'm saying is if we are going to do ignorant changes to the fundamental way the game works let's get rid of it all.

Of course, you are joking though.

How can you not see PvE and PvP can be balanced and mechanically different?

[Kate00]

Nearly ever RvR experience I've taken part in on Reaver/LM has been ruined by the completely brainless mechanic of people mashing buttons on one target. Completely ruins the entire design of the game. Imagine never actually choosing who gets healed or who to target. It's unfathomable to me that there's any sort of debate that this is a stupid mechanic, and it's truly horrendous when either RKs/Defilers are strong, as targets become literally unkillable without one shotting/full stack of inc heal debuffs.

/signed

For someone who cant follow a raid assist target I am not surprised by your response. It never occurred to a support class to cc the defiler or warleader? I mean or just out right kill it?

[Kate00]

How can you not see PvE and PvP can be balanced and mechanically different?

I can. You are missing the point entirely. Why have any target forwarding in pvp or even a raid assist window for that matter. All are brain dead ways of playing are they not?

[Askelin]

I once said something like "fights in the Moors would be more interesting and engaging if Target Forwarding was removed." And after consideration, I still stand by this belief.

If I would be advocate for anything, it would be to to remove Target Forwarding in the ettenmoors.

Target Forwarding encourages extremely lazy play for high payoff in PvMP environments. It allows raids to instantly snap their entire healing focus to whoever the enemy is focusing just by figuring out who the RAT is. How do you counter that exactly? Changing RAT is a temporary solution, having a warg or burglar in stealth calling the RAT like what OP mentioned is a very unfun and not consistant strategy for an issue that shouldn't be a thing in the first place.

There's often no coordination even happening in these HTF heal spammy fights and it's extremely antisocial and anti fun to slog through engagements with many healers who don't even talk because they're all target forwarding to have a perfect AI like targetting reaction time because they just want to grind out infamy/renown/commendations.
I actually like PvMP for the fun of it, I want the fun to be encouraged, I want to feel rewarded for being a good healer or a good damage dealer or a good leader or coordinator, I want my role to be more engaging of my brain, Lotro isn't exactly a super difficult game but I feel HTF especially is a frustratingly lazy and overly effective tool in PvmP and now that we finally have developer attention on the Ettenmoors as a whole I don't see a reason why target forwarding should remain in PvMP anymore.

Target forwarding does not encourage individual skill, and it certainly doesn't encourage teamwork or effective group coordination.

DPS in the raid need only to select their RAT and instantly be targetting everything they target. This is especially problematic with ranged classes who can quite literally stand in the back and press buttons without considering what's even going on in the fight. This may be an extremely effective way to play but it is not engaging or at all fun. It also encourages a very tunnel vision approached to fighting. Without target forwarding, at the least players will have to pay some attention to the target change and any tactics being talked about mid fight. And this is especially true for larger scale conflicts where ideally there's multiple roles being carried out to beat the enemy side.


I understand that RATs can be set for both healing and dps, which is fine, that's not the issue, the problem is Target Forwarding can cut any and all coordination out of the picture while basically guaranteeing that the heals are perfectly stacked, the dps is perfectly targetted. Removing this feature from PvMP is more than just making players click and extra button (the RAT's target), I also believe it will help to bring about a more healthy state of play that no amount of class balance and number tuning will accomplish.


Groups and raids can still heal really effectively with just following what's going on with vitals and the fight around them. Just as it should be! Stacking major heals with coordination just as you coordinate bubbles, rezzes and defensive cooldowns.

I have no strong opinion on target forwarding in PvE. It's a matter of players playing against the content rather than players fighting against players. For all I care it can stay in PvE, because at least that way it isn't negatively affecting anyone. I wouldn't encourage a change that affected PvE just for the sake of PvMP. I do however implore SSG to consider removing the Target Forwarding feature from PvMP for the sake of PvMP.

Just because HTF in the moors has been a thing since the beginning (to my knowledge), it doesn't mean 15 years of a great system, let's consider the future of the Ettenmoors while we still have the ears of the developers and not use "but it's always been this way" as an excuse to not want for positive change.

[Ozry]

This is a great suggestion to make group and raid vs raid fights more healthy having less brainless HTF healers on both sides!

[Brolad]

Good idea, this would make PvMP much more engaging without affecting PvE at all. At the moment it's one of several PvMP issues that tend to create boring battles.

[Joedangod]

Probably healthy overall. Not as healthy as mouseover targeting but it'll do.

[Contrarious]

Best Christmas Joke ever! No way you can be serious cause this is a non-issue and not one of the priorities that need to be addressed. LOL thanks for the laugh.

So true! You make the best posts, my queen

[Setenzia]

So .. break/nerf TT mechanics in PVE to fix the PVMP mechanics?

Easy fix - kill the defiler/healer and problem solved.

Stay out of the moors if ya can't kill the defiler/healer.

[Zaheer]

/signed

In the name of Gale Boetticher aka dread

So .. break/nerf TT mechanics in PVE to fix the PVMP mechanics?

Easy fix - kill the defiler/healer and problem solved.

Stay out of the moors if ya can't kill the defiler/healer.

let me guess, you're a champion main

you don't need to destroy a PvE mechanic, I suppose you can change certain games mechanics exclusively under pvp flag.

[pinlu]

/signed

[wereah]

There's no way around it, no matter what side you play: Target Forwarding, especially Heal Target Forwarding (HTF) is exclusively a detriment to the quality of PVMP action.



Lets define it and then count the many reasons why it is a serious negative to the quality of PvMP for everyone:

Target forwarding is when you select an enemy or ally and route all your skill plays through said target, such that the skills land on whoever the selected person is targeting. While healing, if you target an enemy and use your heal skills, the heal skills will automatically be routed to the person they are attacking.




Heal-target-forwarding has been and continues to be a cancer on the moors because with absolutely zero effort or thought, all healers can instantly heal any target that is targeted before it even receives damage, rendering most coordination on the offensive side pointless, since there is no major advantaged gleaned from doing a surprise switch.

It also lowers the level of play for healing on both sides to a borderline-afk style of play where blindly mashing green buttons while target-forwarding through a key enemy DPS class or offensive support is the most effective route to healing in larger fights, making play boring for the healer.

Does SSG accept that blind target-forwarding is currently the most effective method of healing in PVMP?

What is even worse is how players are forced to try to defeat HTF: By having one member of your group be in stealth and have every DPS member of the raid target-forward through said stealthed player, who is forced to stay out of the fight and merely call targets.

Does SSG think this is an acceptable to force one group member to sit out the fight because of a broken gameplay mechanic?


For years this has been in the top 10 issues with PVMP for many people, and recently many different players from different background that haven't always gotten along have come to agree that its time for Target Forwarding to go. It is severely impacting the quality of gameplay in the Ettenmoors for both sides.

This is what we ask of SSG:

In short order, please disable Target-forwarding in the Ettenmoors PVMP only.... or eliminate its effectiveness such that the grievances listed above are addressed.



Join our movement here: https://discord.gg/q3AuP4jT2F

100% agree, HTF is a blight upon PvMP and needs to be gotten rid of, the amount of times my group has had to have a ward/burg sit out to deny the endless hordes of defiler's their brain dead target forward is frankly unacceptable. it just ruins the skill barrier/level for Defiler and RK especially, since it allows them to just button mash to keep whoever is being attacked at full health.

People should adapt or die.

[Daec]

This should definitely be disabled in PvMP. it only reinforces poor game play and lazy mechanics. Turning what should be a challenging experience into selecting one target and simply hitting your buttons as fast as you can whether you're DPS or a healer.

Additionally it overinflates how effect a class is/perceived to be. The easiest example is defiler but it applies to any (especially mini in the past, and potentially RK if freep heals are ever reworked). When your heals are landing before any and every target is called specifically with HoTs it becomes extremely difficult not to say "This class is ridiculous it needs a nerf!" when in all actuality the problem is the check box allowing it and not the class itself, leading to potentially undeserved nerfs that at some point will force everyone into this lazy style of play just to even be remotely effective.

It easily turns fights into stalemates and can at times be the sole deciding factor if a fight is winnable or not.

In the end the game should not do your targeting for you, as heals or even dps, awareness in a fight, target prioritization and effective management of heals are all things that should factor into the outcome of a fight, with this option its completely removed.

While the main focus of this usually ends up being healing, DPS is just as bad, when an entire raid's/group's ranged DPS falls down on a target immediately every time, it also shifts perception of what is balanced and what isn't, what should be effective with a highly coordinated group who puts in effort is now simply enabled with a mouse click in the most backwards way possible in my eyes.

[wereah]

This should definitely be disabled in PvMP. it only reinforces poor game play and lazy mechanics. Turning what should be a challenging experience into selecting one target and simply hitting your buttons as fast as you can whether you're DPS or a healer.

Additionally it overinflates how effect a class is/perceived to be. The easiest example is defiler but it applies to any (especially mini in the past, and potentially RK if freep heals are ever reworked). When your heals are landing before any and every target is called specifically with HoTs it becomes extremely difficult not to say "This class is ridiculous it needs a nerf!" when in all actuality the problem is the check box allowing it and not the class itself, leading to potentially undeserved nerfs that at some point will force everyone into this lazy style of play just to even be remotely effective.

It easily turns fights into stalemates and can at times be the sole deciding factor if a fight is winnable or not.

In the end the game should not do your targeting for you, as heals or even dps, awareness in a fight, target prioritization and effective management of heals are all things that should factor into the outcome of a fight, with this option its completely removed.

While the main focus of this usually ends up being healing, DPS is just as bad, when an entire raid's/group's ranged DPS falls down on a target immediately every time, it also shifts perception of what is balanced and what isn't, what should be effective with a highly coordinated group who puts in effort is now simply enabled with a mouse click in the most backwards way possible in my eyes.

Here here

[Kate00]

Stay out of the moors if ya can't kill the defiler/healer.

Agreed.

It's amazing after all these years that all these freeps in this thread have not figured out how to use their skills to make defiler and war leaders useless in a fight.

Apparently, they have never had the idea to just kill them either.

You know, I don't think they have ever noticed that freep npcs tell them to "target fire on the warleaders". (In other words ... "kill them first")

[devdor]

So .. break/nerf TT mechanics in PVE to fix the PVMP mechanics?

Easy fix - kill the defiler/healer and problem solved.

Stay out of the moors if ya can't kill the defiler/healer.

apparently u cant read it says only in the ettenmoors not in pve