Remove Target Forwarding from PVMP

[Kate00]

Its disgusting on both sides and both sides are coming together to appreciate how disgusting it is.

They literally aren’t. A few people in a discord do NOT make up the majority of the population. It shouldn’t even be on the radar of things that need to be fixed.

Also waiting for you to admit you and your discord buddies were wrong on the map cd making action increase across the map… how long shall the community wait Dread?

[BrotherBab]

Agreed, this was always a cancer in PvMP.

[Hilawolf]

I read most of this thread, but I did not read a single argument to keep dps/heal target forwarding other than "don't spend resources". What is the game play argument to keep it? I can only think of reasons to delete it. Both sides abuse it and I think freeps actually abuse it more than creeps. Creeps really only have one class that can abuse it.

[Grey_Havens_Taxi]

This is a sad hill to stand on.

What it is really saying, is our groups don't have enough aptitude to PvMP without our groups revealing who their targets callers are. So, instead lets break the game, again.

[Kate00]

I read most of this thread, but I did not read a single argument to keep dps/heal target forwarding other than "don't spend resources". What is the game play argument to keep it? I can only think of reasons to delete it. Both sides abuse it and I think freeps actually abuse it more than creeps. Creeps really only have one class that can abuse it.

OP's are still too hard to take and take too long
It's boring flipping keeps
Most classes don't have a ranged interrupt
Creeps still move slower than freeps
there are 123456789 burgs out at any given time because they are op fotm
the map cd needs to be reverted
there is no diversified action across the map like promised
rank farming
low population that keeps dropping
lag

these are a few things, and by far not even remotely the whole list, that need to be fixed without getting into every creep class out in the moors but hey, let's fix stuff that isn't broken. I mean it hasn't been a problem in 15 years.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Orion claims that he would like to remove HTF but he's afraid that some people will try to add it back with macros...


If people want to break the TOS by doing evil macro magic and other modifications to their client, that's on them and that's already happening.

Exploits happen, macroing happens, farming/cheating happens.

As long as this awful this is not an officially condoned and enabled behavior, we the HTF removal A L L I A N C E will be satisfied.

[Gillianrial]

Orion claims that he would like to remove HTF but he's afraid that some people will try to add it back with macros...

I sincerely doubt he has said anything like that...

[SSG_Orion]

Orion claims that he would like to remove HTF but he's afraid that some people will try to add it back with macros...

What I said on stream was, "We are not going to commit engineering resources that would be needed to investigate, and then make this change, when a client-side plugin could be as easily created and made available."

[CzK]

What I said on stream was, "We are not going to commit engineering resources that would be needed to investigate, and then make this change, when a client-side plugin could be as easily created and made available."

awww poop... he's right you know. I'm actually kinda glad to hear this as it acknowledges an under mentioned issue with pvmp.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

What I said on stream was, "We are not going to commit engineering resources that would be needed to investigate, and then make this change, when a client-side plugin could be as easily created and made available."

correct, but you've also expressed disapproval of it as a mechanic in the same stream.


In any case, our resolve remains firm in the face of this.... if you feel that engineering is off the table, perhaps you can look into a game-mechanics-based approach to reduce the efficacy of HTF?

perhaps you can encourage multiple target focus instead of everyone dogpiling onto the same target? That will severely cut into the power of HTF and render it pointless.


The reason HTF works right now is because the game highly incentivizes everyone to swamp on the same target and stack it with debuffs such as +incoming damage, -incoming healing, and -mitigations, while also punishing any form of split targeting due to missing out on those debuff's benefits AND the power of AOE healing and HoT healing (which multiplies the effective damage-negating power of those skills by the number of targets being pressured).

Perhaps that is something you can address?

[Kate00]

correct, but you've also expressed disapproval of it as a mechanic in the same stream.


In any case, our resolve remains firm in the face of this.... if you feel that engineering is off the table, perhaps you can look into a game-mechanics-based approach to reduce the efficacy of HTF?

perhaps you can encourage multiple target focus instead of everyone dogpiling onto the same target? That will severely cut into the power of HTF and render it pointless.


The reason HTF works right now is because the game highly incentivizes everyone to swamp on the same target and stack it with debuffs such as +incoming damage, -incoming healing, and -mitigations, while also punishing any form of split targeting due to missing out on those debuff's benefits AND the power of AOE healing and HoT healing (which multiplies the effective damage-negating power of those skills by the number of targets being pressured).

Perhaps that is something you can address?

I'll be all for removing heal target forwarding as soon as you quit using it and target forward dps. There's still the issue of the tons of other stuff that needs to be addressed before this.

Want to buy a ranged interrupt for creepside.

[SSG_Orion]

correct, but you've also expressed disapproval of it as a mechanic in the same stream.

Again, I don't think that those were my choice of words. I think it was more along the lines: "If we were developing a game for PvP from the start then HTF would not have been something that we would have built."

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Again, I don't think that those were my choice of words. I think it was more along the lines: "If we were developing a game for PvP from the start then HTF would not have been something that we would have built."

and this is.... not a statement that conveys disapproval?


anyway this bickering about the semantics is pointless. Takeaway from today: Engineering resources are for now (and maybe forever) off the table.

Lets discuss non-engineering ways to address the very real issue of HTF being a detrimental mechanic to the moors. I've posed some problems that are linked to HTF effectiveness, will you be taking a look around the balancing of any of those in order to mitigate or eliminate the efficacy of HTF?

[J-Moneyforever]

I'll be all for removing heal target forwarding as soon as you quit using it and target forward dps. There's still the issue of the tons of other stuff that needs to be addressed before this.

Want to buy a ranged interrupt for creepside.

Assuming you mean for defilers, (since despite what 90% of the BAs seem to forget when chasing a freep on a horse, No You Don't is an interrupt.) In which case, sure by all means, minis and RKs have them so why not defi, anything to add to the skill cap of a class that has always been the easiest in the game.

[Thorandril]

OP's are still too hard to take and take too long
It's boring flipping keeps
Most classes don't have a ranged interrupt
Creeps still move slower than freeps
there are 123456789 burgs out at any given time because they are op fotm
the map cd needs to be reverted
there is no diversified action across the map like promised
rank farming
low population that keeps dropping
lag
these are a few things, and by far not even remotely the whole list, that need to be fixed without getting into every creep class out in the moors but hey, let's fix stuff that isn't broken. I mean it hasn't been a problem in 15 years.

they are not hard to take, nor do they take too long. if that's the case find some friends, same goes for keeps.
moving slow is not an issue, you can still port to the other side of the map, regardless of cooldown durations maps are still a massive boon
see point 1 for observed burglar issue
map cd is fine as is
there is certainly action in more spots than there were before, there is no 1-solution fix for this.
at this point rank farming is beating a dead horse because the companies position hasnt changed on it other than to attempt disincentive through making rank less desirable
i imagine population drops because there's really nothing worthwhile in terms of longterm rewards for pvp and as seen in above point making said rewards fewer has been a long-term goal, but every time rewards that are worthwhile are added or changed the population shift becomes dramatic and untenable

if the last point was made in regards to TFH or maps, it is disingenuous at best to say neither have been brought up before as issues that were not good for pvp.

[Kate00]

they are not hard to take, nor do they take too long. if that's the case find some friends, same goes for keeps.
moving slow is not an issue, you can still port to the other side of the map, regardless of cooldown durations maps are still a massive boon
see point 1 for observed burglar issue
map cd is fine as is
there is certainly action in more spots than there were before, there is no 1-solution fix for this.
at this point rank farming is beating a dead horse because the companies position hasnt changed on it other than to attempt disincentive through making rank less desirable
i imagine population drops because there's really nothing worthwhile in terms of longterm rewards for pvp and as seen in above point making said rewards fewer has been a long-term goal, but every time rewards that are worthwhile are added or changed the population shift becomes dramatic and untenable

if the last point was made in regards to TFH or maps, it is disingenuous at best to say neither have been brought up before as issues that were not good for pvp.

so your answer is i should group?

This was my argument when everyone decided to punish healing classes by removing points for healing. I should not be forced to play the game the way you think I should. Freeps should not be able to get away from engagements. HTF is NOT an issue. If you don't like it. Don't do it. I find it ironic that the people against it use it regularly with tfdps. STOP PUNISHING HEALING CLASSES AND FIX THE GAME.

[CreepNeedBuff]

yes,it is cancer in pvp ,but if remove it ,in raid vs raid,kill one people only take two seconds, healer has no reaction time to select the ppl be focus fire.

[saving]

Yes nerf target forward healing so the champ melee train can evaporate creeps with no pre-hots in 0.5 seconds before anyone has time to react, quicker than the selection target even shows who's being targeted. No way around it.

[Whohaz_Duhrang]

lol Orion, This Is All To Common With This Community, I Swear Many Hither Have Issues Processing Things. Which Is Sad Cause Many Are Incredibly Older In Age, So One Would Think They’d Have Some Type Of Wisdom But Alas, Nay Indeed., Come To Evernight Right After Reset, I Think Many Of These Types Are Active There At That Time., It’s Easy To Spot Them, For They Always Begin Attacking Others Then After Retaliating And Putting These ####### In Their Place They Think The One Retaliating Is Rude (lord save us from the stupidity that thrives). Anyways I Diverge From The Topic, But Indeed It Is A Major One In Itself. Lotta ### Rags. #IfYouLeaveThisPostUpYourAReal One

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

lol Orion, This Is All To Common With This Community, I Swear Many Hither Have Issues Processing Things. Which Is Sad Cause Many Are Incredibly Older In Age, So One Would Think They’d Have Some Type Of Wisdom But Alas, Nay Indeed., Come To Evernight Right After Reset, I Think Many Of These Types Are Active There At That Time., It’s Easy To Spot Them, For They Always Begin Attacking Others Then After Retaliating And Putting These ####### In Their Place They Think The One Retaliating Is Rude (lord save us from the stupidity that thrives). Anyways I Diverge From The Topic, But Indeed It Is A Major One In Itself. Lotta ### Rags. #IfYouLeaveThisPostUpYourAReal One

this man is taking coded messages to the next level.

I salute you for making this, got a good laugh when I figured it out.

Mods will be stumped, bigbrains will laugh. peasants will rot in ignorance.