Captain Changes and Feedback

[Tralfazz]

Yeah, not sure what the deal is here. The communication just ended without warning.

“Due to the offices being closed in observance of Presidents' Day on Monday, this week is that break. We hope to resume the Beta schedule with round 3 next week, with possibly a 4th the following week.”
https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...t=#post8178157

[auximenes]

You may try checking the discord. Maybe the conversation moved over there.

Nah, this is the official forums and I will continue to expect information to be relayed here.

“Due to the offices being closed in observance of Presidents' Day on Monday, this week is that break. We hope to resume the Beta schedule with round 3 next week, with possibly a 4th the following week.”
https://forums.lotro.com/forums/show...t=#post8178157

The communication about Captain changes tapered off before that. The engagement on for Warden and Captain changes were similar for a while, then it was silence for Captain.

[Kevpain]

Nah, this is the official forums and I will continue to expect information to be relayed here.


The communication about Captain changes tapered off before that. The engagement on for Warden and Captain changes were similar for a while, then it was silence for Captain.

Exactly, this is the official forums. The dev should be communicating with players here and not elsewhere. Most of his responses in his posts are just him defending his changes rather than engaging in meaningful discussion with the community on here. I'm guessing he got fed up with all the feedback on here and went elsewhere. Get back here dev and engage with us, please. Being silent does not help us captains. I know it can be frustrating when your changes are being challenged by most of the community on here, but you have to push past the frustration and listen to your player base. Otherwise, Captains will be left behind while everyone else moves forward. Captains have always been the unique class where we have always been the support role. We have never truly been main healer, dps, or tank. It seems to me, like gone are the days of a support role for captains and are leaning more to being a main role. I might be wrong, but if this is the intent, then I implore you dev, to listen to the advice and suggestions of fellow captains on here.

[Neinda]

Exactly, this is the official forums. The dev should be communicating with players here and not elsewhere. Most of his responses in his posts are just him defending his changes rather than engaging in meaningful discussion with the community on here. I'm guessing he got fed up with all the feedback on here and went elsewhere. Get back here dev and engage with us, please. Being silent does not help us captains. I know it can be frustrating when your changes are being challenged by most of the community on here, but you have to push past the frustration and listen to your player base. Otherwise, Captains will be left behind while everyone else moves forward. Captains have always been the unique class where we have always been the support role. We have never truly been main healer, dps, or tank. It seems to me, like gone are the days of a support role for captains and are leaning more to being a main role. I might be wrong, but if this is the intent, then I implore you dev, to listen to the advice and suggestions of fellow captains on here.

The pattern lately has been for the devs to come here and make a few comments when the complaints from the player community get a bit on the loud side. Once that is over and things settle down, the devs appear to go back to the private discord for feedback and interaction. They prefer that form of media over the webpage is my best guess. My assumption is that they have better control over who gets to be there and provide input as it is privately run and the owner of the discord sets the rules. If you have feedback for the changes it would make the most sense to go to the discord and provide it if you want your input to be heard and discussed. Not saying using discord is good or bad, it is just the way of things right now. Forums are mostly dead on the SSG side. The private discord thrives with dev involvement and interaction. Many of us have complained about this but it stays the same. Look at the forums lately. Very dead on both the player and SSG side. Discord really is the only place to go to give feedback and in some cases get the most current updates about the game.

[theultimatekyle]

If it makes yall feel better, there's not really any engagement going on in the big discords either, at least not for captain.

[elvenes]

The pattern lately has been for the devs to come here and make a few comments when the complaints from the player community get a bit on the loud side. Once that is over and things settle down, the devs appear to go back to the private discord for feedback and interaction. They prefer that form of media over the webpage is my best guess. My assumption is that they have better control over who gets to be there and provide input as it is privately run and the owner of the discord sets the rules. If you have feedback for the changes it would make the most sense to go to the discord and provide it if you want your input to be heard and discussed. Not saying using discord is good or bad, it is just the way of things right now. Forums are mostly dead on the SSG side. The private discord thrives with dev involvement and interaction. Many of us have complained about this but it stays the same. Look at the forums lately. Very dead on both the player and SSG side. Discord really is the only place to go to give feedback and in some cases get the most current updates about the game.

a whole load of BS. It is not us who should go there, but them to come back here, end of.

[Truthsworde]

This has happened with absolutely every single BR thread ever. Literally, I have never once seen a bombshell "kill-a-class" patch note response thread that hasn't been packed with "Oh my god you haven't thought this through" and a bunch of concerns, that isn't just totally ignored and the notes go live exactly as is. This isn't a test forum, this is an advance warning.

I could be wrong but have the concerns raised actually been tested on BR? Or are they simply a conclusion arrived at based on what we fear may happen or not happen? There seems to be a lot of backwards and forwards in this thread about what Captains should have or not have etc. I see very little actual data or even just anecdotal evidence of Bullroarer experience. There is a lot of what seems to be opinion that has devolved into having a gripe.

I would have loved to spend some more time on BR but only could do a couple of hours, and didn't have time to do a group, but my experience of both red and blue (known bugs aside) was overall positive. I would love to see some actual data or even just someone's actual experience on BR, especially in group or raid setting. Then we would have the ability to actually discuss what is working or isn't.

All bCaptain needed was:

- Muster Courage no longer heals
- Muster Courage heal moved to Words of Courage as an initial heal. HOT component massively massively increased but only lasts 12 seconds. MC initial heal applies to both "brothers".
- Words of Courage can be used on self (yeah sounds dumb, but what other healers can't heal themselves?) Just call it.. Thoughts of courage if it's used on yourself.
- Reform the Lines CD 40 seconds.
- Shield of the Dunedain remains in yCaptain tree but is also a capstone reachable in bCaptain tree only by bCaptain. rCaptain should not be able to get bubble.
- SotD only in bCaptain tree can be used on self.
- One big non-HOT AoE heal on a 40-60 second cooldown, to help recover from massive group damage spikes.

That's it.

- Well now Muster Courage upgrade is down further in blue - that's one thing I'd probably change if could to make self heal more available, although I haven't tested enough to see if mainly rCap have good survivability without this
- New Gift of Spirit is a huge heal that can be used on self or others (not just brother), and comes up pretty often
- See above
- Banner heal is now more powerful and performs the function of group heal on mid-range (1min) cool down group heal.
- Seems redundant, why not just make a new capstone that yCap can use on self and then give another skill that yCap can use to shield others - oh wait, that's what there is now (cooldowns and actual effects might need adjusting with, but that's what this beta is for)
- I think that goes against the idea of SotD, if survivability for bCap is an issue then I think this should be addressed with other things
- It is HoT, but banner heal has been significantly beefed up as a group wide heal

My point is a lot of what is wanted in the above list is there, maybe it needs tweaking or even some big adjustments. But it is hardly broken.

I am not specifically trying to target any person, but the above seems to me to show that a lot of statements are being made without even much testing.

My only complaint so far is that there would be more testing time!

Aedan | Laurelin

[Aeviternus]

My point is a lot of what is wanted in the above list is there, maybe it needs tweaking or even some big adjustments. But it is hardly broken.

I am not specifically trying to target any person, but the above seems to me to show that a lot of statements are being made without even much testing.

My only complaint so far is that there would be more testing time!

Aedan | Laurelin

Yes, I am inclined to agree. At least the blue line changes are largely positive. It is pointless to try to give one's own list of preferred changes as compared to the live version of blue captain; changes are coming, the direction has been set, just give the appropriate feedback to adjust said direction.

Blue line on BR had a few glaring issues:

• Weak self-healing
• Weak survivability (not the same thing)
• Current version of Valiant Strike is terrible
• Valour healing is currently largely useless

As should also be noted: a blue captain has to engage in melee combat to provide any meaningful healing. This can be a massive liability. Example: suppose you're in SV T3+ on final boss, and purple eyes overlap with the AoE pullback. You cannot use any melee skills, even though some party members will take massive damage. In principle, we have tools to deal with this: In Harm's Way, Shield of the Dúnedain. But more generally, we cannot live through using IHW in blue line. So by addressing the points above, this weakness will also become less of a liability.

Fortunately, it should be easy to address these issues:

• Revert Valiant Strike, and then add the current Valiant Strike as the Valour healing component. Also let Inspire heal the captain and unnerf Muster Courage.
• Make Defensive Strike do something that is actually defensive
• See above
• Change the healing from Valour to being an absorb bubble instead. This way, it can be used to prevent damage, so most of its effect need not go to waste.

[Arabani]

As should also be noted: a blue captain has to engage in melee combat to provide any meaningful healing.

That is the biggest concern and downside of bCpatain, that has been pointed out to the developers. But it seems that they believe that the proposed changes are enough-it is not so. Much more must be done, non-melee heals must be given, better ways to counter burst damage, as well as better personal surviability. There is no way that bCpatain can heal SV or any other instance with a relatively hard fight.

Truthsworde, regarding BR, dummy parsers means nothing. The performance must be measured in action, which is almost impossible to do on BR. But once again, the concept can be seen without any testing.

[Hephburz-2]

- Well now Muster Courage upgrade is down further in blue - that's one thing I'd probably change if could to make self heal more available, although I haven't tested enough to see if mainly rCap have good survivability without this
- New Gift of Spirit is a huge heal that can be used on self or others (not just brother), and comes up pretty often
- See above
- Banner heal is now more powerful and performs the function of group heal on mid-range (1min) cool down group heal.
- Seems redundant, why not just make a new capstone that yCap can use on self and then give another skill that yCap can use to shield others - oh wait, that's what there is now (cooldowns and actual effects might need adjusting with, but that's what this beta is for)
- I think that goes against the idea of SotD, if survivability for bCap is an issue then I think this should be addressed with other things
- It is HoT, but banner heal has been significantly beefed up as a group wide heal

I am not specifically trying to target any person, but the above seems to me to show that a lot of statements are being made without even much testing. My only complaint so far is that there would be more testing time!

In terms of 'testing' as pointed out, dummy parses only go far but it's also not hard to see how the concept will play out in real time in fights like HH especially, moreover especially something like Hrimil which is a gigantic arena that involves large amounts of movement that is already melee unfriendly, if bCaptain is not going to be viable for 2/3 of the fights of the Raid, then what was the point of the changes in the first place?

• Yes, Gift of the Spirit is great, but it's about the only good change Blue Line has recevied.
• The change to VS is clunky and terrible, at the very least the heal should also apply to yourself.
• Banners entire healing effect is nullified by one puddle drop, or a required movement somewhere else, that already has a small radius, in a raid/fights where tanks + group are not always together, it is also now the only cross-group aoe heal bCaptain has following the changes to Reform the Lines.
• The new Yellow line skill to give -30% inc damage to a target for 7s, is not potent or long enough to be considered useful enough in the majority of situations.
• Survivability is definitely an issue, out of all your skills the only AoE ones that can heal you are the Banner and Rallying Cry, everything else doesn't heal you, except Gift of Spirit, which isn't reliable, takes time to unlock, and is meant to be your main tank-heal. You no longer have a self-melee cooldown in either blue or red now that the parry buff has been removed from fighting withdrawal, and as probably the only healer that is required to be in melee (Beorning is arguable at best) they are too squishy to be in that position currently.
• Muster Self-Heal has been nerfed.
• Reform the Lines is still garbage given ontop of the other changes, the cooldown was also increased and the ability of the skill to heal outside of the fellowship was also taken away, making it even less useful than it is already, and even less desirable in a raid setting.

On top of this, what is Blue Captain offering "offensively"? Literally nothing, if they even wanted to use the Red Banner it would stop them from using the Blue one. It doesn't have anything in its kit that can compete with Bees+Armour Crush. It doesn't have anything in its kit that can compete with Minstrel Anthems, Call to Greatness & the other various small buffs here and there that Minstrel provides (Orome etc.). Defensively, it "may" be able to compete on a similar level with bRK, but at the same time, it can't compete with aoe raid bubbles, fates, and the enormous amount of +% inc healing and -% inc damage buffs that bRK can provide, ON TOP of things like flurry, and vivid imagery etc. as well as the general potency/strength of bRK healing.

So what is the line really doing? Healing a Single target and that's it, which a bRK will be able to do miles times better AND easier.

==

The changes to Yellow are just absolutely terrible.

They've taken away the Yellow Captains ability to effectively off-heal, or even operate in any way as a support-heal type.
They've taken away the double rez.
They've taken away To Arms in so far as it could operate as an extra small cooldown for your second raid tank, and overrall potent damage reduction for the fellowship.
They've taken away SoD.

And nothing has been given back. Granted, due to the changes yCaptain is probably going to be a ‘sturdier' tank with more self-sustain, but, it's value to the fellowship and the group has all but gone, there is now very very little reason to ever choose a yCaptain tank over a Brawler+Brawler or Brawler+Guardian combination (or even Brawler+Warden if the U35 changes stay as they are now). They need something in their kit that they can bring to the table to make them a desirable choice next to Brawler/Guard, as currently, they no longer have one. These changes are also extremely hard to stomach when you take into consideration the level of support that has now been given to Wardens in For the Free Peoples, Fellowship Protector the healing buff to Conviction and the fact they still have DT/MT, which is quite frankly coming in at absurd levels of both defensive and offensive support on a similar stupid level to the level of support offered by a Brawler tank.

Both Noble Mark and the Yellow Variation of BoE need changing or redesigning (The DoT component of BoE in general needs redesigning). Revealing Mark also needs removing/redesigning it is such an overinflation of a Captains ability to heal which is mostly wasted HPS, which I think is a large part of the reason why Inspire and Gallant display have been nerfed/changed. The radius of SiN needs to be increased.

At the Fore is a nice design (though 4min cooldown is too long, no other tank has cool-downs with this type of cd (except perhaps NS on Wardens, which is arguable given how it applies)) I would like to see the +100% damage buff persist outside of the stacks and for the full 25s duration, as well as a further increase to Yellow Captains own personal damage capability in some way, preferably through some kind of buff to using a 2Handed Sword over a Sword & Shield, (which has always made little sense for cappies).

[KillAllFrep]

I could be wrong but have the concerns raised actually been tested on BR? Or are they simply a conclusion arrived at based on what we fear may happen or not happen? There seems to be a lot of backwards and forwards in this thread about what Captains should have or not have etc. I see very little actual data or even just anecdotal evidence of Bullroarer experience.

As others have stated (Heph hits the nail on the head) it isn't hard to see how the changes stack up from notes alone to generate opinions. yCaptain is being gutted of its group support capability, group healing capability and some of its self-sustain, leaving it as an underperforming tank compared to others. Maybe it can overcome this if some of the changes are over-potent/literally OP, but regardless, the class will have lost what it is right now.

- New Gift of Spirit is a huge heal that can be used on self or others (not just brother), and comes up pretty often
- See above
- Banner heal is now more powerful and performs the function of group heal on mid-range (1min) cool down group heal.
- Seems redundant, why not just make a new capstone that yCap can use on self and then give another skill that yCap can use to shield others - oh wait, that's what there is now (cooldowns and actual effects might need adjusting with, but that's what this beta is for)
- I think that goes against the idea of SotD, if survivability for bCap is an issue then I think this should be addressed with other things
- It is HoT, but banner heal has been significantly beefed up as a group wide heal

- GoS "pretty often" on self in fights like for example Thossulun where the whole group can be taking consistent damage over time is just not sufficient.
- Banner heal is going to be as garbage as it always has been, one puddle, one relocate or just simply the group not all standing neatly in one 5x5m area and it is wholly nullified.
- The new capstone for yCaptain is vastly underwhelming compared to SotD.
- "if" survivabiity for bCaptain is an issue?? Really? Have you ever actually played bCaptain?
- A group-wide heal (with the aforementioned major caveats) like that is just not useful enough. If the radius was massive (like Essay of Exaltation) and applied to everyone in it (at the start) and stayed on them even after moving out of the radius, then it'd be a different story perhaps.

Yes, I am inclined to agree. At least the blue line changes are largely positive. It is pointless to try to give one's own list of preferred changes as compared to the live version of blue captain; changes are coming, the direction has been set, just give the appropriate feedback to adjust said direction.

Blue line on BR had a few glaring issues:

• Weak self-healing
• Weak survivability (not the same thing)
• Current version of Valiant Strike is terrible
• Valour healing is currently largely useless

True, my list of "things" the Captain needed was intended to highlight how simple the changes could've been to be more effective than what we're getting. Your list is exactly right, none of the glaring bCaptain issues have been addressed, instead we get shiny new changes that swing the functionality of skills in a new direction (AoE to ST for example) but don't cover the main gaps: survivability of the healer, self-healing etc.

Alas, it appears once again all appropriate feedback will be ignored and these changes - as is always the norm - will be shipped to live as-is and without any community adjustments taken on board whatsoever. I'll gladly eat my hat if this is not the case, OMM.

[Hephburz-2]

I would just like to say aswell, there are two very important aspects of bCaptain that no one has ever seem to addressed and I'd like to mention it and see what my fellow captains think.

How do Minstrels, Beornings and Runekeepers often speed up their capability to heal? -% Induction buffs right? What does a bCaptain get, currently, and even after these changes, that operates in a similar way? Answer is they don't. Two things that HAVE to be addressed when considering the viability of bCaptain is A) Attack speed and B) Movement speed.

Attack Speed

A) Captains do not have induction based heals, which means there is only one buff or rather one type of buff that is going to increase how fast a bCaptain is going to be able to heal, and that is +% attack speed buffs, like the kind that already exist from red in the form of the penetrating cry trait. Now, I hear you, it already exists in Red, why do we need another? But let's look at Minstrel for a comparison, they have -10% inductions from blue trait line, a further -10% inductions from a class tracery, and then up to a further -10 to -13% inductions from either words of power or words of craft, that alone is already 30-33% induction increase to the +15% attack speed increase from the rCaptain buff.

What I'd like to see is a similar or stronger buff exist solely in Blue Line ontop of all the other current changes. Attack speed has never now been so important, especially when you consider the changes to Valour which literally requires you to attack to heal your brother. I'd like to see a +25% attack speed buff - or something of a similar potency to the red buff, somewhere in blue line or passively, meaning that you aren't forced to take the red line variation if you don't want to spend the points on it (though that is also a group buff, but yeah). But also a 25% buff ontop of the 15% buff wouldn't necessarily be too overpowered either.

Movement Speed

B) Movement speed. Yes, a bCaptain has Words of Courage, they have Rallying Cry, and after u35 Gift of Spirit which will enable a large ST heal cast from range, but at the end of the day, Captains need to be able to get to a target, quickly, and effeciently, because if they can't their healing capability is pretty much gone after one cast of RC and GoS. To that end I have another suggestion, a self-variation of make haste in blue that grants the bCaptain a +50% runspeed buff for 5s (potentially 10s) which "sets" the captains speed, meaning they cannot be slowed (or rather that slows will not effect them), with around a 45s - 1min cooldown (probably 5s duration with a 45s cooldown to prevent abuse). Which allows the bCaptain to get to the target it needs to, or at least get to A TARGET, so that it can heal.

I feel these two factors are extremely key to any continued bCaptain changes, and I'm surprised to have not seen them mentioned or brought up before - but again, I'm open to hearing what other Captains have to say.

=

As a P.S. bCaptains, similar to Beornings, need every stat, and they need massive amounts of those stats, they need finesse, they need crit, they need mitigations (20% more than minstrels and RKs - and even more than beornings considering a bCaptain HAS to be in melee), but most importantly right now with the u35 changes - finesse, given BPE'd melee hits do not contribute to unlocking Gift of Spirit, and because of the new Valour implementation requiring you to hit to heal - either unlocking GoS needs to work with hits that are BPE'd or bCaptain needs some kind of BPE penetration, or in general, just add a finesse contribution from the line or from might as an example.

[Feldanor]

Can anyone explain to me how b cap would fit into high tier content? Everything I'm reading and hearing suggest it is still lacking a major "oh sugar" skill and can only really provide good hps which, as many will know, doesn't mean a thing if you can't recover from big burst damage.

Also how would it actually fit into raids?

Mini brings anthems for major group buffs

Rk bring the damage reduction bubbles, epic st heals and the fates stone

Bro brings bees, armour crush and those lovely raid wide heals.

What does bcap bring to the table? Aka, is it going to change raid setups.

[Aeviternus]

Can anyone explain to me how b cap would fit into high tier content? Everything I'm reading and hearing suggest it is still lacking a major "oh sugar" skill and can only really provide good hps which, as many will know, doesn't mean a thing if you can't recover from big burst damage.

The Bullroarer version of blue captain does not pump AoE HPS as the live version does. Valiant Strike is no longer AoE (except during Reform the Lines).

I actually think the healing kit that we have available now for targets other than ourselves is close to being very good. Healing on targets other than our Shield-brother is weaker than it should be. This could be rectified in a plethora of ways. But blue captain now has very strong tools for AoE recovery, with both Banner and Reform the Lines providing major AoE healing. Of course, both of these two abilities have their issues that should be addressed, in my opinion.

lso how would it actually fit into raids?

Mini brings anthems for major group buffs

Rk bring the damage reduction bubbles, epic st heals and the fates stone

Bro brings bees, armour crush and those lovely raid wide heals.

What does bcap bring to the table? Aka, is it going to change raid setups.

It won't. They have been determined to strip captains of their utility for a long time now. Not enough of it is left to justify taking a blue captain into a raid, if the goal is to have the optimal raid setup, or if the fight requires a particular healing pattern.

One could argue that the AoE power restoration will be appealing, with the upcoming power changes. I don't know if that will suffice.

[Feldanor]

That is disappointing, as the changes to ycap reduce its viability when you have the brawler and guardian, mean that you may not be taking ycaps as much. Thank god red cap has some buffs even though the OB nerf is appalling.

[KillAllFrep]

I would just like to say aswell, there are two very important aspects of bCaptain that no one has ever seem to addressed and I'd like to mention it and see what my fellow captains think.

Attack Speed

Movement Speed

With Sword & Board I didn't feel attack speed was an issue, part of why in Remm days you could parse over 400k sustained HPS, because you can get so many heals off so fast and most bCaptain animations are short. I didn't heal with a 2hander because the DPS was negligible and a shield offered better stats, so I can't attest to that, I'd imagine that with a 2H it's filthy slow, so you are likely correct in that instance.

RE movement speed, yeah I think that's a big thing actually. Even just a passive 10% run speed to the Blue trait tree would be pretty significant and wouldn't be so far as to be broken. Not averse to the Make Haste idea either, but feel the cooldown will limit its effectiveness in solving the issue, particularly in movement heavy fights.

As a P.S. bCaptains, similar to Beornings, need every stat, and they need massive amounts of those stats, they need finesse, they need crit, they need mitigations

Yep, also that healers stack morale to help avoid dying to various mechanics, mob aggro etc. so Captains will have to stack all of that, plus whatever the Power changes bring about, plus Crit/OGH/Mits/Finesse. Gearing a bCaptain will be a challenge for sure.

Can anyone explain to me how b cap would fit into high tier content

Currently? It doesn't. After this change? It won't. Not unless the actual issues that the spec has are resolved, but given the now complete silence on this thread I think the original notes are what we're getting, AKA nice try but just as unwelcome in any challenging content (or content where the healer takes any damage at all).

Also how would it actually fit into raids?

It won't, the aim almost seems to be to make Captain more generic and less of what it is (was?), a jack of all trades class with buffs and group support.

What does bcap bring to the table? Aka, is it going to change raid setups.

Now: Underwhelming ST healing, underwhelming "oh sugar" capability, underwhelming self-survivability, inefficient use of abilities (melee, needs a target).
Soon: Underwhelming AoE healing, underwhelming "oh sugar" capability, underwhelming self-survivability, inefficient use of abilities (melee, needs a target).

The currently proposed iteration of bCaptain will not change group setups because unless it can do something better than another class, it will never be taken in anything outside of fun funs. It has to either significantly buff group damage output or provide something really significant and regularly useable for group survivability in order to be viable, whilst also not being totally gimped when you factor in something like that bCaptain can't heal without a target (mid-phase for example) or if a mob is being kited, or if a mob is out of range for whatever other reason, and then that even if the mob is in range but is in a puddle, the Captain is boned.

[Aeviternus]

Now: Underwhelming ST healing, underwhelming "oh sugar" capability, underwhelming self-survivability, inefficient use of abilities (melee, needs a target).
Soon: Underwhelming AoE healing, underwhelming "oh sugar" capability, underwhelming self-survivability, inefficient use of abilities (melee, needs a target).

The currently proposed iteration of bCaptain will not change group setups because unless it can do something better than another class, it will never be taken in anything outside of fun funs. It has to either significantly buff group damage output or provide something really significant and regularly useable for group survivability in order to be viable, whilst also not being totally gimped when you factor in something like that bCaptain can't heal without a target (mid-phase for example) or if a mob is being kited, or if a mob is out of range for whatever other reason, and then that even if the mob is in range but is in a puddle, the Captain is boned.

I don't want to have to disagree, but I think it is important to paint an accurate picture so that our legitimate complaints are heard, and not drowned out by a barrage of other minor gripes. So I have to say:

Blue captain on BR has quite a bit of "Oh snap" tools available to it. We have SotD for single target, and we can spec IHW for AoE. Reform the Lines makes all Shield-brother healing AoE, which means we can use AoE Valiant Strike and Inspire during this. Gift of Spirit is, in theory, frequently available, and able to crit upwards of 700k. Blue banner is currently poorly implemented, but when the group can stand in it, it provides massive AoE healing.

All in all, blue captain on BR can handle sudden bursts of damage quite well I think, the problem is the frequency at which it can do so:

• In Harm's Way and Reform the Lines are on a 3m cd. Why? Essay of Exaltation and Our Fates Entwined are far lower, and far more effective (not to mention less hazardous for the RK)
• Shield of the Dúnedain is on a 3m cd, but unlike yellow line, there is no way to reduce its cd.
• Banner is very potent, but will usually not be maximally utilised.

And as always, I will add: Reform the Lines should heal the captain. Without this, the captain is also excluded from the Shield-brother healing during Reform the Lines. Then again, Shield-brother healing should always heal the captain as well, in my opinion.

[Hephburz-2]

All in all, blue captain on BR can handle sudden bursts of damage quite well I think, the problem is the frequency at which it can do so:

• In Harm's Way and Reform the Lines are on a 3m cd. Why? Essay of Exaltation and Our Fates Entwined are far lower, and far more effective (not to mention less hazardous for the RK)
• Shield of the Dúnedain is on a 3m cd, but unlike yellow line, there is no way to reduce its cd.
• Banner is very potent, but will usually not be maximally utilised.

These are definitely the key take-aways from the changes, alongside not having that "something" (offensive utility OR defensive utility that can match RK) that makes it a comparable choice next to the other healers, as well as a sheer lack of raid healing capability.

[KillAllFrep]

Blue captain on BR has quite a bit of "Oh snap" tools available to it. We have SotD for single target, and we can spec IHW for AoE. Reform the Lines makes all Shield-brother healing AoE, which means we can use AoE Valiant Strike and Inspire during this.

You listed two "oh snap" things, one of which guarantees death for the Captain if actually utilised. Regarding the availability of opening up AoE healing, using a three-minute CD..? Just.. Oof. So we have group healing that is just basic skill usage for all other healers, but for Captain we have to blow 3minutes of cooldowns for it...

Gift of Spirit is, in theory, frequently available, and able to crit upwards of 700k.

How frequently? 700k is not that much if it's once every 30 seconds, or massive if it's every 5. You're right that we just don't know around this particular point, but I don't think one single heal is going to fix all of the Captain's survivability issues, particularly as it will always be a toss-up of use the one strong ST heal on yourself, or the tank?

• In Harm's Way and Reform the Lines are on a 3m cd. Why? Essay of Exaltation and Our Fates Entwined are far lower, and far more effective (not to mention less hazardous for the RK)
• Shield of the Dúnedain is on a 3m cd, but unlike yellow line, there is no way to reduce its cd.
• Banner is very potent, but will usually not be maximally utilised.

And as always, I will add: Reform the Lines should heal the captain. Without this, the captain is also excluded from the Shield-brother healing during Reform the Lines. Then again, Shield-brother healing should always heal the captain as well, in my opinion.

Agree to all of this.

[Aeviternus]

You listed two "oh snap" things, one of which guarantees death for the Captain if actually utilised. Regarding the availability of opening up AoE healing, using a three-minute CD..? Just.. Oof. So we have group healing that is just basic skill usage for all other healers, but for Captain we have to blow 3minutes of cooldowns for it...

In my mind, I listed four: SotD, IHW, RtL, Banner. When utilised to their full potential, these are all very strong cds on BR. However, the cooldowns are too long, and in case of IHW and Banner, the results are too inconsistent. Adding some form of personal damage mitigation to Defensive Strike would quite possibly solve the issue with IHW. There are many ways to solve the issue with Banner. As noted, the cooldowns are indeed too long. My point is only: the tools are there. We just need more frequent and consistent access to them, we don't need new buttons that do new things.

How frequently? 700k is not that much if it's once every 30 seconds, or massive if it's every 5. You're right that we just don't know around this particular point, but I don't think one single heal is going to fix all of the Captain's survivability issues, particularly as it will always be a toss-up of use the one strong ST heal on yourself, or the tank?

As quickly as you can get off 5 melee attacks. So typically every 7-10 seconds, I would say. However, it consumes a large amount of power, which is kind of a big deal next update.

It is not sufficient self-healing, to compensate for everything captain has lost in terms of self-healing so far, especially given that its self-healing was already weak. But if the current version of live blue captain just had Gift of Spirit added to it, it would have some very strong healing for the fellowship.

Since BR captain lost AoE Valiant Strike and AoE Inspire (which I hope will be reverted), I'm not sure if we have sufficient healing in general now. Especially cross-healing in raids will still be painful, in spite of Gift of Spirit being added. This is because Reform the Lines is no longer raid-wide.

[OnnMacMahal]

[*]Standard of Honour (blue banner) does not pulse for the advertised 15 seconds. It only pulses for 10 seconds, even though the banner lingers a little longer.[/LIST]

I've seen this in a few posts, but have not been able to reproduce this issue. Are you using the banner out of combat? Banner effects are now in-combat only, so they'll fall of sooner than expected if you use it without being in combat (The banner will still exist, so technically you can step out of and back into the area to regain the effect, but the more salient point is simply that it'll work as expected in a normal combat situation).

[OnnMacMahal]

B) Movement speed. Yes, a bCaptain has Words of Courage, they have Rallying Cry, and after u35 Gift of Spirit which will enable a large ST heal cast from range, but at the end of the day, Captains need to be able to get to a target, quickly, and effeciently, because if they can't their healing capability is pretty much gone after one cast of RC and GoS. To that end I have another suggestion, a self-variation of make haste in blue that grants the bCaptain a +50% runspeed buff for 5s (potentially 10s) which "sets" the captains speed, meaning they cannot be slowed (or rather that slows will not effect them), with around a 45s - 1min cooldown (probably 5s duration with a 45s cooldown to prevent abuse). Which allows the bCaptain to get to the target it needs to, or at least get to A TARGET, so that it can heal.

I'd hazard that most grouped captains are able to maintain a decent amount of attack duration reduction (penetrating cry alone gets you nearly halfway to the realistic cap, though it's of course not a given for bCaptain). That said, I think you do make a good case for an infrequent ability to help you more easily get into melee range when needed.

[OnnMacMahal]

All in all, blue captain on BR can handle sudden bursts of damage quite well I think, the problem is the frequency at which it can do so:

• In Harm's Way and Reform the Lines are on a 3m cd. Why? Essay of Exaltation and Our Fates Entwined are far lower, and far more effective (not to mention less hazardous for the RK)
• Shield of the Dúnedain is on a 3m cd, but unlike yellow line, there is no way to reduce its cd.
• Banner is very potent, but will usually not be maximally utilised.

And as always, I will add: Reform the Lines should heal the captain. Without this, the captain is also excluded from the Shield-brother healing during Reform the Lines. Then again, Shield-brother healing should always heal the captain as well, in my opinion.

While the Captain (along with the Lore-masters of old) has long had skills with the identity of benefitting the group at your personal expense, it's true that to be a competent main healer, bCaptains do need some modicum of self-healing. To that end, Reform the Lines will now heal the captain, and its cooldown has been reduced back to 2 minutes. SotD is going to remain ally-only for now, but I'll continue to keep an eye on self-healing potential in blue.

[Aeviternus]

I've seen this in a few posts, but have not been able to reproduce this issue. Are you using the banner out of combat? Banner effects are now in-combat only, so they'll fall of sooner than expected if you use it without being in combat (The banner will still exist, so technically you can step out of and back into the area to regain the effect, but the more salient point is simply that it'll work as expected in a normal combat situation).

I seem to recall being in combat when I tested this. But I'll try to reproduce it in the next Bullroarer build.

While the Captain (along with the Lore-masters of old) has long had skills with the identity of benefitting the group at your personal expense, it's true that to be a competent main healer, bCaptains do need some modicum of self-healing. To that end, Reform the Lines will now heal the captain, and its cooldown has been reduced back to 2 minutes. SotD is going to remain ally-only for now, but I'll continue to keep an eye on self-healing potential in blue.

You are right, and this identity is part of what I enjoy about the spec, so I am happy for In Harm's Way and Shield of the Dúnedain to exist in their current form. The thing is that blue captains are not sufficiently sturdy to be able to use In Harm's Way as a defensive tool, in many situations. This is why I think it would be great if Defensive Strike actually provided some form of meaningful damage reduction, as the name suggests it should. Also, I do not think the healing reduction you applied to Muster Courage was warranted, so I would implore you to simply revert that change.

Having said that, it's nice to see that you are willing to adjust Reform the Lines, both its cd and it's self-healing. This is already going to make a very noticeable difference, I believe.

[1Asy1]

OnnMacMahal's, can you please address the longer more detailed posts, earlier in the thread?

Thanks.