Warden Changes and Feedback

[Khallan]

I'm absolutely loving MANY of these changes, while there's still work to be done, and it's definitely not perfect, this is the kind of rework I've been screaming for internally since around the 95 or 105 cap. I mained warden as a tank from early mirkwood, essentially through the 105 cap excluding the update that the 105 raid released, I had quit by then.

The changes fit the class flavor so well, and it fits so naturally. I love it.

I really wish I had enough experience in recent warden tanking to be able to tell how well these changes will stack up to what is on the live servers now.

Things that are long overdue, and have been needed -

1) More than 1 defensive cooldown, now we have 3, and they all feel unique and impactful.
2) Rebalance of healing gambits - this is probably my favorite of the changes, every heal feels impactful.

Things that were not necessarily needed, but are amazing and I now cannot fathom playing without

1) Advanced technique? HOLY HELL DO I LOVE IT. This is the thing that I never knew wanted, but now can't wait for it.
2) More 5length gambits - It was always weird that there never was a 31313, and now we have it

Now... Some things that perplex me a bit.

1) The fact that the survivability buff component of NS doesn't proc if you do not take the fatal hit. Also, The defensive buff duration feels too short. At the very least, this buff should also benefit from the tracery for NS duration. I was actually surprised that this was not the case.

2) Why not have the partial block chance and mit just have a duration and be separate from the healing portion? This would make the skill feel a bit more worth the cooldown it has. I do understand that making the skill more regularly able to be used does mean that we shouldn't receive similar effects of something like Juggernaut for guardian, but I do believe that it's not asking much to Give us the partial chance and mits for the duration of the skills effect, and not just the heals. This button essentially feels like the only useful portion of it is the healing, which of course, is great and I'm glad to have.

3) Pretty much echoing every other warden here, I really hate the interruption to the flow of the game buffing out of combat causes. This is something that I'm definitely glad that we have, and that it's not like it was back in mirkwood, where we literally would not be able to pre-buff, but this has not aged well. As more buffs are added to the kit and feel necessary, the tediousness of this process increases and just causes everyone involved in the group to become more frustrated. It's definitely time to come up with a solution for this.

3a) Also, in the same vein as the above, one of the things that has helped us keep our buffs up in the past, is the efficiency of using gambits with multiple effects. Such as: Healing gambits were also our block buff gambits, Our aoe damage gambits we used for threat were also our evade gambits. This helped to make sure that we had efficiency by providing benefits in more than one area of combat. This is essentially gone, as each gambit is specialized into one thing, the aoe dots are only that, and the heals are only that, requiring us to not only use those when necessary, but to also throw in the direct aoe gambits, rebuffing (this is somewhat of a lesser issue, because we still used to have to do this, there were just fewer of them) defenses, all while also making sure we're making effective use of our lovely new AT mechanic. I don't necessarily think that we need the dual effect gambits back, but I do think that the breadth of gambits that we're going to need to use regularly has expanded rather significantly. I think that extending buff durations a bit more would help to alleviate this problem.

4) Something I do not know if it is an issue, but from what little I've seen could potentially maybe be one, is threat? I'd love to see the return of threat transfer effects, or even just one, returning the transfer to conviction would be lovely, but I also wouldn't mind a return of aggression either. - I have no idea if this is an actual issue, but based on the damage numbers I'm seeing myself put out on BR, I could definitely see threat as a pain point for me, especially considering how strong the dps classes are these days


TAKE ALL OF THIS WITH A GIGANTIC MOUND OF SALT, as I haven't tanked on my warden since 105, and have pretty much been awol since 105 minus a month or 2 at the 50 cap on shadowfax. That being said, I did main tank pretty much everything before that, and I mostly love the changes in this rework.

Also, This rework singlehandedly made me redownload this game and jump back into it. The warden is my favorite class of any mmo out there, and probably will be forever.

[Kander]

No offence taken.

I’m just trying to differentiate between legitimate concerns the devs need to address, and non-issues that people are complaining about without actually testing for themselves.

People are calling a skill suicide, without ever actually using it Vs a raid boss.
Then when I say I’ve seen it used Vs a raid boss and your concern is not warranted, it’s met with denial.

I’ve also tested it myself.

I agree in principal that there should not be a boss buff on warning shot. Just remove it.
But is also think that if it stays it’s not going to be an issue, it’s certainly not suicide like people are claiming.

Let’s provide actual useful feedback to the devs instead of getting unjustly upset and blowing things out of proportion.

The point for the taunt is totally not about being determinant, but rather being insulting, like they change a damage reduction effect on boss taunt to make it a damage boost to boss? No other class got anything even remotely close to buffing the boss on taunt. Is it gonna kill you or the raid? no, the effect is minimal, but there's absolutely no need or reason to buff the bosses you're tanking while other classes actually debuff on their taunts.

I think we're missing the point of the debate here, or we're debating 2 different things. I know what you mean when you say warden is viable, can do all content, etc, and I think the other guy has more of a raiding endgame perspective on "viable" meaning, which I share. The point he's trying to make is that unless you're comparable in utility/effectiveness to other tanks, you'll never be able to get into a proper raid group with warden tank. I'm not saying wardens should become now new meta for raiding, but that it should be possible for a group when a t3 raid is released to actually use a good warden tank for clearing that content first time, not that they NEED that warden but at least that being a posibility considered by some. Right now it's simply not the case, is it possible to tank whole raid t2 or even t3 with warden after changes? probably, by a fully geared warden that got its gear in dps role, with a group that doesn't mind using the worse tank class. Will any warden have ever a spot to tank if there is someone who can relog to a less played guard or captain tank? for sure not, even after changes.

That's what the other guy and myself think. Warden will likely be able to tank everything after enough time has passed and everyone is properly geared, or even overly geared for the content, but that's not what a class rework should aim for, it should aim for wardens being an option to tank hardest content, not just: yeah we have a perfect geared warden with all full t3 set and everything, let's let him tank since it's not hard anyways.

I tanked pretty much every raid since lvl 75 onwards on my warden (I didn't make warden until lvl 75 was released) and Orthanc could be tanked on warden, Erebor cluster could be tanked with warden, Throne could be tanked with warden although it started to be substantially harder than on guardian except for very specific fights, Mordor cluster could be tanked on warden, but it was already getting into the point of already needing to be fully and overly geared and requiring tremendous luck and skill compared to other tanks, and then Anvil raid was possible to be tanked on warden only up to certain tier and it was a challenge most people weren't willing to take (understandably), as literally t2 tanking on warden became hard even for t3 experienced groups.

In Remmorchant, well, warden tanks didn't exist anymore, I remember I tanked some t2 runs and such after the content was outdated but that's it, same as threshold.

It's obvious that wardens can tank some content but the moment a class becomes only a last, desperate backup for a role that people feel should be fulfilled by a "real" tank, then the class is not viable in my book.

I just want warden to be back on lvl 75-85 levels, where a good warden was an alternative to a guardian. I don't think changes now are gonna achieve that, but regardless, the buffing the bosses when you taunt certainly shouldn't be a thing.

[Kaeneth]

Will Stout-axe wardens get the fist gambit builder fixed? Ever since they got the ability to become wardens they've been totally missing the fist gambit builder animation. The skill acts as if there's an animation, and you can hear the battle-cry, but the character doesn't move at all. He just sort of stands there and shouts. Seemed like a good time to bring it up now that the animations have been sped up and feel much smoother than they used to.

[JuanD]

Aka pre boss 2 HH trash.

SV t3 + is done on release day with party of 3. So im sure 5 ppl +1 afk at the first phase warden can done it too. The idea is why wrd should be afk?
Aplying dots is not rushing. As red you have nothing outside dots. Your sugestion is to a.. tickle boss with gambit builders till he go in phase to ?
Can be done / and its already done/ but its stupid.

Do us all a favor and read the patch notes and do some actual testing on BR. Two entire gambit sequences have been turned into burst damage for ST and AoE. Either use the boot line or offensive strike line and dont worry about DoTs. If you consider the damage too low that's an entire different thing, but saying wardens don't have nothing outside dots at this point is preposterous.

[Osglinthor]

Do us all a favor and read the patch notes and do some actual testing on BR. Two entire gambit sequences have been turned into burst damage for ST and AoE. Either use the boot line or offensive strike line and dont worry about DoTs. If you consider the damage too low that's an entire different thing, but saying wardens don't have nothing outside dots at this point is preposterous.

Damage is too low, and considering animations and masteries cost its best to spam only one of gambits from those lines via battle memory for situations where dots are not option(and for some reason putting spear bleeds and cashing them out fast results in more burst than said gambits). Solution to make them work in a way like cashouts, where you would need to use all 3-4 and have dmg higher have been sugested but fall on deaf ears for now. So its all still dot maintance>ST cashout on small morale adds>DoTs and boars rush spam before cashout on AoE. Update completly missed point of giving use to DD gambits, or at least all of them. Since boars rush use is terrible considering how it works.

[JuanD]

Which is different than pretending they don't exist. If you think they are not doing enough damage that's fine and that's what the feedback is for, but saying our only option other than DoTs is auto attacks is simply not true

[OnnMacMahal]

Will Stout-axe wardens get the fist gambit builder fixed? Ever since they got the ability to become wardens they've been totally missing the fist gambit builder animation. The skill acts as if there's an animation, and you can hear the battle-cry, but the character doesn't move at all. He just sort of stands there and shouts. Seemed like a good time to bring it up now that the animations have been sped up and feel much smoother than they used to.

Thanks for pointing this out; this should be fixed going forward.

[Plidak]

Do us all a favor and read the patch notes and do some actual testing on BR. Two entire gambit sequences have been turned into burst damage for ST and AoE. Either use the boot line or offensive strike line and dont worry about DoTs. If you consider the damage too low that's an entire different thing, but saying wardens don't have nothing outside dots at this point is preposterous.

We have our spear/shiled line on live too. Yes i do consider dmg too low, i didnt mean i stay AFK or spam gambit builders...
But while other classes spam st dmg, we just rely on one line gambits, which litmit us to the point close to afk or LM pet.

[Eadondryt]

The point for the taunt is totally not about being determinant, but rather being insulting, like they change a damage reduction effect on boss taunt to make it a damage boost to boss? No other class got anything even remotely close to buffing the boss on taunt. Is it gonna kill you or the raid? no, the effect is minimal, but there's absolutely no need or reason to buff the bosses you're tanking while other classes actually debuff on their taunts.

I think we're missing the point of the debate here, or we're debating 2 different things. I know what you mean when you say warden is viable, can do all content, etc, and I think the other guy has more of a raiding endgame perspective on "viable" meaning, which I share. The point he's trying to make is that unless you're comparable in utility/effectiveness to other tanks, you'll never be able to get into a proper raid group with warden tank. I'm not saying wardens should become now new meta for raiding, but that it should be possible for a group when a t3 raid is released to actually use a good warden tank for clearing that content first time, not that they NEED that warden but at least that being a posibility considered by some. Right now it's simply not the case, is it possible to tank whole raid t2 or even t3 with warden after changes? probably, by a fully geared warden that got its gear in dps role, with a group that doesn't mind using the worse tank class. Will any warden have ever a spot to tank if there is someone who can relog to a less played guard or captain tank? for sure not, even after changes.

That's what the other guy and myself think. Warden will likely be able to tank everything after enough time has passed and everyone is properly geared, or even overly geared for the content, but that's not what a class rework should aim for, it should aim for wardens being an option to tank hardest content, not just: yeah we have a perfect geared warden with all full t3 set and everything, let's let him tank since it's not hard anyways.

I tanked pretty much every raid since lvl 75 onwards on my warden (I didn't make warden until lvl 75 was released) and Orthanc could be tanked on warden, Erebor cluster could be tanked with warden, Throne could be tanked with warden although it started to be substantially harder than on guardian except for very specific fights, Mordor cluster could be tanked on warden, but it was already getting into the point of already needing to be fully and overly geared and requiring tremendous luck and skill compared to other tanks, and then Anvil raid was possible to be tanked on warden only up to certain tier and it was a challenge most people weren't willing to take (understandably), as literally t2 tanking on warden became hard even for t3 experienced groups.

In Remmorchant, well, warden tanks didn't exist anymore, I remember I tanked some t2 runs and such after the content was outdated but that's it, same as threshold.

It's obvious that wardens can tank some content but the moment a class becomes only a last, desperate backup for a role that people feel should be fulfilled by a "real" tank, then the class is not viable in my book.

I just want warden to be back on lvl 75-85 levels, where a good warden was an alternative to a guardian. I don't think changes now are gonna achieve that, but regardless, the buffing the bosses when you taunt certainly shouldn't be a thing.

Yes it appears that we are talking about different things, it seems that you and the other guy keep talking about the state of live warden, and not the upcoming changes.

After testing on bullroarer, warden tanking feels like it did back at lvl 75-85.
The self heals are meaningful, strong enough to keep a warden alive with little to no support.
We have some good group utility in the form of damage reductions, damage buffs and mitigation debuffs. Conviction also contributes meaningfully to group heals.

We have had enough time to gear our wardens for tanking via HH so the next raid won't really be a good test. However there is a level cap increase coming at the end of the year, and I would be willing to put money on it that if the changes stay as they are from BR3, a competent warden will be able to tank that raid on T3 when it becomes available. I have zero doubt about that. Specifically because it is much much easier for a warden to reach their mitigation caps than other tanks due to the ratings we get from gambits.

Now I have also said that I agree with you in principal that the buff on warning shot should go. I am simply stating that the other person is blowing it all out of proportion with calling it "suicide shot" and that it will cause bosses to one shot you.
Same with Crit defence. I have never geared my warden with Crit-D in mind, it just isn't that impactful - unless you are doing PvMP.

[Plidak]

. Specifically because it is much much easier for a warden to reach their mitigation caps than other tanks due to the ratings we get from gambits.

At the end the diference is 20% morale.
Even now/live+ BR/ captain and guards slots only vit essences and they did/do/and will do fine.
So do 20% diference will be enought? We see.
About self healing, just wait til moors creeps flood forum with teara, and it will get nerfed

[Vorfolomeev]

Hi all and especially @OnnMacMahal,

As I wrote above, I made a plenty of DPS tests during Bullroarer 3. After rotation optimization I managed to achieve average score about 500 DPS with the best result 527.
It's a little bit better than 470 but still not enough and absolutely not compatible with other DPS classes on Bullroarer (>750).

So please find the list of my ideas below:

- It's absolutely necessary to raise initial damage of gambits so warden could be useful not only in long fights;
- Rapid Techniques has too big CD, it should be 1 min or even less (for example, brawler buffs has +35% damage (lasts 9 sec) and +20% damage (lasts 10 sec) with 30 sec CD). RT is not so powerful while less CD (40 sec for example) will allow to use it completely in rotation;
- Duration of Rapid Techniques is too short as well, 10 sec would be great;
- Spear of Fate has really small damage for 5 symbols gambit, Spear of Virtue much more powerful;
- Unseen Strike looks very weak and useless: deals 320-720 damage for BoV, SoD and Desolation. While Seared Flesh deals 1,7 mln damage for Power Attack, Mighty Blow and Unerring;
- The Way of the Feast with +7,98% Damage Over Time is quite useless. While you earn AT, waste it, and it will affect on dots and bleeds, the fight will end much earlier;
- It seems that 4 gambits is quite a lot to gain one level of AT, 3 was perfect;

- Assailment damage like 30% less than In the Fray (350 vs 500);
- Power wastes much faster in Assailment;
- It seems that Adroit Manoeuvre doesn't work for Assailment stance.

And the last but not the least (not about DPS)
It's really necessary to update First Aid.
Most classes have an opportunity to remove 2, 3 or even 4 effects by class skill. Warden is a tanking class as well. But First Aid removes only 1 and there's no chance to upgrade it with Tracery or Class trait.
At Ettenmoors, for example, against good reavers or wargs warden is just running without weapon for 5 sec while enemy is crushing his face.

Thanks for attention,
Warden DPS matter!

[PreemptiveRegret]

Not a fan of this. I understand why you changed Unconventional Strikes but why are you nixing our minor survivability traits? This parry bonus is not OP by any stretch. Please consider reverting this.

Yeah I'm going to miss the heal. It felt very useful vs many small mobs.

The trait it's replaced with is completely worthless meanwhile.

[Plidak]

Ranged Resounding Challenge now has a radius of 10m around your target.

Its good BUT kinda off...
Right now it go out even if target is out of range, and even without target. Please change this. Is very tricky to watch do target is in range by looking at in bar skill indicator icon.
Make it work as every other target required ranged skill.
Thanks

[Goatimli]

Thanks for removing the +5% outgoing damage buff from Warning Shot! However, the tooltip's description still says "... but briefly increasing their outgoing damage."



I like the changes to Deflection and Resounding Challenge. However, the tooltips do not change even when you trait for this. After traiting, do these skills build threat? The trait says "Resounding Challenge builds instant threat instead of dealing damage over time." However, it still deals damage over time when traited, making me think it is not working as intended.



Additionally, when mousing over the new trait "Undeniable Challenge," it also brings up the Defiant Challenge skill again which I do not believe is intentional. As a very small point, could we have different icons for Redirect Ire and Undeniable Challenge?



When traiting Redirect Ire, is it possible to grant us the effect without taking up a "buff" on our vitals bar? Especially one that's the same icon as For the Free Peoples.



Finally, the Yellow-line trait Bane of Shadow is the only blue-colored trait among a sea of yellow. I understand that you moved this from Blue-line into Yellow; however, to keep the color-palettes the same, perhaps change it to a yellow background.



Thanks!

[Eadondryt]

Its good BUT kinda off...
Right now it go out even if target is out of range, and even without target. Please change this. Is very tricky to watch do target is in range by looking at in bar skill indicator icon.
Make it work as every other target required ranged skill.
Thanks

It’s a melee skill.
If you want the targeted ranged version, swap to assailment stance, then it works exactly how you want it to.

[Plidak]

It’s a melee skill.
If you want the targeted ranged version, swap to assailment stance, then it works exactly how you want it to.

The truth is i missread it. THought they mean DC no RC.
So i guessed they give DC kinda yellow captain aoe taunt effect.
Complately my fault here and i apologise.

[Sirlot]

Thank you OnnMacMahal for all the time you have spent on this!

Redirect Ire
The first rank of this new trait will cause Deflection to generate, rather than reduce, threat. Subsequent ranks will increase your overall threat modifier.

Undeniable Challenge
This trait gives 1-5% ranged damage reduction to the Shield Up gambit buff.
This new trait will cause Resounding Challenge to generate additional threat rather than deal Damage over Time.

I like the changes to Deflection and Resounding Challenge. However, the tooltips do not change even when you trait for this. After traiting, do these skills build threat? The trait says "Resounding Challenge builds instant threat instead of dealing damage over time." However, it still deals damage over time when traited, making me think it is not working as intended.

I am seeing the same thing - I am traited for both. RC is still applying dot and i dont see a "threat" arrow over targets the way threat building skills normally do. Also Deflection I am still seeing the blue "decrease threat" over my own head.

Is RC supposed to still have its initial damage when traited for threat? Was not sure if the intention was to turn it into a "non damaging taunt" or just trading dot for threat.

[OnnMacMahal]

I am seeing the same thing - I am traited for both. RC is still applying dot and i dont see a "threat" arrow over targets the way threat building skills normally do. Also Deflection I am still seeing the blue "decrease threat" over my own head.

Is RC supposed to still have its initial damage when traited for threat? Was not sure if the intention was to turn it into a "non damaging taunt" or just trading dot for threat.

Apologies. This will be fixed shortly (though not on Bullroarer of course).

The skill descriptions will no longer claim the skill raises or lowers threat, but the skill tooltip will have a line towards the bottom which should make it clear how the skill is affecting threat. This will be true for any other gambits which gain additional bonus threat generation in the Determination spec as well.

[Elwha]

I was going to get into some of the BR4 changes, but I thought instead I would jump into the numbers. Some general observations. Some % damage bonuses are undervalued. Some are worse than others.

Here you can see Unerring Strike after Tempered Spear should be 147,395.



Here you can see a slight undervalue to % and Unconventional Strikes has no bearing on Offensive Strike. Maybe this is being calculated elsewhere?



I also have serious doubts that these traits are working as described. They have no bearing on char critical tip or on skill tip that could find. It would great if traits like this spoke to exactly what skills it applies to. I highly doubt calculations between say weapon damage and tactical damage over time are one and the same.

[Elwha]

At 390,015 it's just slightly off. I think it should come to 417,472 on the top end when you add 31.92% damage. What's weird is that this also includes Warden's Triumph +12% melee which throws it off even further. Perhaps by as much as 15% undervalued.

[Elwha]

In this scenario, One After Another's +10% Spear Gambit Initial Damage is being applied to Spear of Fate, but it's not actually a Spear Gambit. It's a Fist Gambit. It appears a lot of Spear Gambit bonuses are being applied to Fist Gambits.

Maybe it's time to change Spear Gambit Damage to Melee Damage across the board?

[Plidak]

Im not sure do this was adressed before but there we go.
Almost every boss encounter have some mechanic indicated with eyes above player head.
Usualy most classes have no problem to see and react to it / outside overlaping effects, HH boss 1, SV last boss, etc, etc/ but wardens have it worse.
Most efects take 2-3 secs timer to fire, and if the same time warden is unlucky to use 1-2-3 masteries in a roll / which is usualy the case/ he have very, close to none time to react. Yes i know most ppl who raid use plugins/addons to track such effects, but pug grps are mostly made from casuals which dont even know what plugin means. Also i dont want to feel plugin dependant. Having a mark in you makes things even worse. Theere is literaly no way for you to see the eye mark boss/effect put on you

So my request is, remove masteries effect indicator above wrd head. Reposition head marks. OR just make eyes marks overlap those effecst / like disabled them while eye mark is active. About overlaping eyes i dont know, maybe set some kind of priorite which one to show if have more than 1 ? Or change color / to pink?/ if you have both ? Dont know, il let it to you guys.
So ye, that is.
I just add a simple short video so you see for what i speak.

Thanks and keep the good work.

[Kaeneth]

Thanks for pointing this out; this should be fixed going forward.

So this was fixed this BR, kind of, but there's still some issues specifically I'm seeing on Stout-axe when comparing to other races.

-The fist gambit builder animation and battle shout sound are a bit out of sync with one another.
-For whatever reason the fist/shield gambit line attacks are delayed on stout-axe. Both the instant damage and DoT effect from this gambit line don't immediately apply to mobs when hit like other races, there's somewhere between a 0.5 - 1.0 second delay.
-Axes are now the one weapon type that has a race bonus that's inferior on Wardens. With spears now getting its own 7% damage bonus it's in line with swords for men and elves, and clubs for hobbits. Axes however don't get a master training like the other weapon types, so it's missing a 2% bonus which give stout-axes and standard dwarves who want to use them a disadvantage.

[andys90]

Resounding challenge is not affected by the Fist gambit damage over time tracery. (Or fist-shield damage over time, but i guess it doesn't technically count as part of that line even if it is a DoT gambit starting with fist-shield.)

Also, as of the latest build this defunct trait is very much still a thing.

[Carved]

We're in the last few hours of the last day of the last beta for U35, I don't expect more changes anytime soon, it's on me for waiting this long. However, I have a proposition for the future:



To preface: I love DoTs and the sustained damage nature of Warden, it's more appealing to me than any other class, and I wouldn't ever be asking for this to change. But, the way it's currently set up is quite dysfunctional. There are simply too many DoTs, and their durations make them take too long to get appropriate value. People asking for cashouts identified the right symptom, but came to the wrong conclusion.

The core issue is damage coming from so many different sources, and each source taking so long to apply that damage.

There's a reason warden was so good in Helm's Deep (and prior, but I can't speak to that much). DoTs still had a base duration of 16s, so 20s in red, and they were balanced as such. It happened to be the case that spear bleeds were kinda trashed at the time so you mainly went between 32 and 31 lines (I always hated this, 123 line is too iconic, but I digress). And let me tell you, no one was complaining about the lack of instant burst damage back then - because 1. you're a DoT class and that's the tradeoff, but more importantly 2. your damage was far more consolidated, and getting the main bulk of your output applied was far quicker, even accounting for how low mastery CD is now, and the ticks were SO much higher per DoT, relative to morale pools. And maybe it's just me but the DoT maintenance gameplay is adequately fulfilled by the ~7th effect, it hasn't felt especially compelling to keep applying more and more.

Main things to note in the above altered (scuffed) gambit layout - RC in any form is just a threat increase, 31/3/1/3 is ST filler, 12/1/2/1 is AoE filler, and 13/1/3/1 is a mix of both but mainly for the debuff.
You can then take the duration down on the remaining DoTs (123/1/2 and 32/3/2/3) and juice the damage way higher, and do the same with the new upfront damage lines, and thus the damage profile is in an infinitely healthier place.



Tl;dr - Warden's biggest issue for years is its damage profile being too strung out and spread thin across too many effects, and it's only getting worse with this update. The answer to this is not cashouts, which fundamentally go against the damage over time aspect of this class, but fewer, shorter, stronger DoTs.



Side note for PvP specific feedback after playing for a bit - yes DoTs being removed in 1v1s does indeed tank your value and put you very far behind, greatly exacerbated by the above issues, and yes it's also kinda irrelevant in group play one way or the other. Both of these things make it appropriate for them to be unremovable, but it doesn't really even matter until the fundamental issues above are addressed, other than arbitrarily having to build way more finesse than you should otherwise.