Warden Changes and Feedback

[Regero]

My biggest concern with option 3 (which I already see is getting pushed to test, so we'll see how it works, but I still wish to share my thoughts) is that it's not going to do anything to fix the current Warden issue of "always start with and refresh your highest damage gambits (4-5 icons) and only use 2/3 icon gambits when you have nothing else betterto do."
It seems counter to the concept of the class identity of "working towards bigger things" that the gambit system seems to have been originally designed to reward.

A proposal would be to keep the current chain build system for AT, and make the buffs for completing it more significant, so that it really feels like a setup/cashout system, rather than just a pure gate on AT. I understand that this could be tricky to balance so that it's worth doing, without making it either overtuned for players that can execute it consistently, or so necessary that it locks out some players from contributing meaningfully on Warden, so I have other thoughts that could help incentivize the chains, rather than just "do your strongest gambits," which just seems like casting regular skills with extra steps.


If you want to alleviate the "penalty" for having to start with a 2-icon, perhaps instead of clearing the gambit panel when executed, leave it filled, unless a gambit chain was completed. If the player wants to utilize all gambits in a single line, this makes the "click" penalty less. Assuming that masteries get used with no resets, a current 2-icon->3-icon->4-icon chain would take approximately some variation of (mastery +gambit, builder + mastery + gambit, 4 builders + gambit)=2+3+5=10 button presses, if the panel wasn't cleared, it would take (mastery + gambit, builder + gambit, builder + gambit)=2+2+2=6 button presses, and the same for the same 2->3->5 chain, with a mastery replacing the last builder. That's only 1 more press than manually building a 4-icon gambit currently is (mastery + builder + builder + gambit), and you get the whole chain.

This would make building a full chain of the same line quick and easy, alleviating the "DPS delay" to getting a set of DoTs applied. And swapping gambit lines while in the same chain can still be done relatively easily with the "Recovery" skill, if the player doesn't want to apply the whole line, or decides to swap mid chain.

The new AT generation (any 4 gambits in any order) feels a lot less interesting. You might as well just give us an AT every N seconds we're in combat.

The old (2-3-4/5) system felt OK for tanking; what if (2-3-4) and (3-4-5) (but not 2-3-5) counted as a chain? That would make the DPS rotation more flexible without making the system completely brain-dead like it is on beta 2.

Also, what about "three of a kind" also giving an AT (e.g. 2-2-2, 3-3-3, 4-4-4, 5-5-5)?

So basically "a straight" or "three of a kind". Very intuitive and easy to remember, and will lead to interesting choices in gameplay.

I agree with both of the above posts. Chains were implemented to give us a reason to use the Tier 2 and 3 Gambits. When the chain system was originally implemented it was broken, giving full and potent improvements for only using the tier 2 or 3 gambit. This meant you could make Restoration substantially better by simply bothering to hit Persevere first. It was a bit OP and certainly a bug, but it DID accomplish its intended function. If you want the system to feel good, you need to buff the rewards you get for completing a chain. Currently, on Live, the only chain effect actively worth considering is the Persevere line, the others are not really worth chasing, or almost completely useless. AT isn't so substantial a reward when the CD skills, though decent, can only be procced every 1.5 minutes, and for a very short duration. Under the Beta 2 system, we might as well just gain a passive trickle of AT as long as we are in combat. Personally, I prefer the system as it is in Live, the chain completion bonuses just need a buff.

Its clunky even now, you want it more complicated ? Like we dont have 12 buffs to keep up in 1.3 min rotation? Are you serious?
It should be reduced to 3 gambits in any order imo. 4 is fine when you sit and tank and spank but what about when we need to kite ?

Wardens adjusting to u35 changes:

https://www.facebook.com/reel/1514487202393483

The class is less complicated than it was for the first several years of its implementation. 12 buffs in a 1.3 minute rotation? We used to keep up Dance of War, Shield Mastery, Conviction, both AOE morale leaches, Celebration of Skill, Restoration, Wall of Steel, AND tab-target various enemies to hit them with Precise Blow, also possibly a War-Cry or Goad, and then, with the split seconds you have left, decide if you wanted more heals (which could be a HOT or Resolution) or get more threat, on a less than 30 second rotation with longer Mastery cool-downs. All of this was further complicated if you were also expected to be on interrupt or corruption removal duty. There was also no force-taunts back then, you had to very actively manage threat. Further, none of your Gambits actually told you how much threat they generated; you had no way of knowing Conviction was AWESOME, Precise Blow was your best ST threat generator, or Goad did more than War-cry, unless you went to the forums and saw that people had tested it.

I remember last time wardens were balanced with other tanks (lvl 85 iirc), your gambits and abilities were strong. Self heals were similar to what a dedicated healer healed the guardian, guardian heals were almost nonexistent. In total in raids, your self heals+ healer heals - damage taken was similar in both guardians and wardens. Warden by far was best tank in avoids, literally almost capping everything with buffs and guardians could not even compare in this matter.

This is literally the only way to make wardens compete at all as tanks. And please, fix the joke you did with brink of victory and warning shot, particularly warning shot should just have its debuff it currently has in live servers, buffing enemy damage by forcing taunt is the most stupid mechanic you could do...

There's a fair amount of truth to this. I like the vision of the Warden as it exists on Bullroarer, particularly the DPS on Beta 2, but what it ultimately needs is a it more mitigation, a bit more Partial BPE with ratings OR more raw BPE numbers, and slightly bigger self-heals.


Now, all that said, the Warden on Beta 2 feels quite a bit better than it did in Beta 1. Heals, DPS, everything feels much nicer. Still not perfect, but a solid step in the right direction.

[PreemptiveRegret]

Im sure Readied Blade and Shield mitigations dont stack.

What makes you say that? Of course they stack.

Blue Warden looks so painfully boring maintaining all of these tedious and functionally interchangeable buffs, I really am dumbfounded that this kind of design is acceptable to anyone. Put it this way, if you tripled the duration of them no one would bat an eye or complain or even suggest that it takes away from the gameplay, because the buffs themselves are what takes away from gameplay, it's a constant chore you need to constantly get out of the way so you can actually start playing your class. It's like Minstrel Anthems on steroids but far worse since these are even less interesting without secondary effects and more mandatory because of the stats involved.

6 out of combat precast mitigation gambits while tanking (plus Goad)....it redefines lack of imagination. I can feel myself falling asleep just thinking about it, and my dreams are all about rerolling another class or even game.

[Plidak]

The class is less complicated than it was for the first several years of its implementation. 12 buffs in a 1.3 minute rotation? We used to keep up Dance of War, Shield Mastery, Conviction, both AOE morale leaches, Celebration of Skill, Restoration, Wall of Steel, AND tab-target various enemies to hit them with Precise Blow, also possibly a War-Cry or Goad, and then, with the split seconds you have left, decide if you wanted more heals (which could be a HOT or Resolution) or get more threat, on a less than 30 second rotation with longer Mastery cool-downs. All of this was further complicated if you were also expected to be on interrupt or corruption removal duty. There was also no force-taunts back then, you had to very actively manage threat. Further, none of your Gambits actually told you how much threat they generated; you had no way of knowing Conviction was AWESOME, Precise Blow was your best ST threat generator, or Goad did more than War-cry, unless you went to the forums and saw that people had tested it.


.

First, read before you adress someone.
Secon no need to educate me how to play warden, wardening since moria.
I meaned the PRE pull buffs you need to "caste" before significant fight, not the entire rotation.
And this rotation is MORE complicated since early class days for many reasons.
Dps burst window highrocked, so you need to be prepared to lock agro /and to take it at the start.
Removing of our javelin skills wont help us much.
Ssg keep addin gambit after gambit to our core roation, while in the same time lag f/k you left and right, harder with every day pass.
I wont be surprised if they add additional gambit line, because ones we have now are hardly enough to fit all gambits, without sacrafice atleast.

Cudos to dev team but only entusiasm is not enough. They rly need to listen to playebase before such big changes.
Without trying to shame someone, but im sure none of them even know how warden works /on papper even/ wont mention real game play.
Plenty of examples but il give you one.
Get the 2 new cash out GAMBITS. Unseen Strike and Cauterizin Steel. Both of them "cash out" diferent line dots and do ST or AoE dmg.
BOTH of them require a target. Both of them are 5 (FIVE) line gambits. So far so "good"
Now il give you fresh example of last night. Sv /tier doesnt matter/ boss 3. Pug grp. Me as warden. Started smooth. I hing i timed the boss phases and my dots will tick off before dmg return, but dps was too bursty and my dots had 10 sec duration left at the moment boss go in "summoning mod" So you need to kill mists and boss is immune to dmg. But my dots still on him ticking, not doing dmg, but registering hits= i take % hp dmg on each. At this moment i was sure healer fall in love with me. I didnt read it on chat i but i can see it in his reactions.... Same happend when i did my t1 run solo after the grp run. But this time ofc with no healer. So go back to the 2 skills i mention above. Boss go in phase, you neeed to cash out your bleeds/dots/ but you cant, because skills require you to hit targer and taget is imune. Also the are both mele range/ unless you build them on ###/stance. So if you are not "yellow" you are scrwd.
Its hard to counter reflect when you need to hardbuild your 5 lines gamibt, and you cant rely that you will have a masteries ready to use, or stored combat memories. so most of the time you end as dead weight.
Solution. Combine both gambits in one SKILL. Remove the initial hit dmg, so skill do dmg only if DoTs are consumed. Remove its power cost. No cooldown. No tarrget requred. Drains the damage over time efect /yours ofc/ from targets around you /range 30y/ and deal dmg for each dot removed. Simple. Even if target is imune and dmg cant be registered, your dots will be cleaned and you will be safe.

And AGAIN remove the dmg buff from our taunt or rename it to "Self mokery shot"

[Kander]

And AGAIN remove the dmg buff from our taunt or rename it to "Self mokery shot"

Make it challenging shot. Change the +5% outgoing damage to +200% outgoing damage. It would effectively change the t1 content into t3+ when a warden tanks, which would be a great way to get wardens to experience t3+ content since t1 is the only way they would tank in a raid.

[OnnMacMahal]

- What is happening to wardens BPE/Partial's? Warden BPE has been a core component of their defenses, and this has severely lacked for a long time, particularly since they came to rely on gambits and builders providing rating bonuses. Historically, warden mitigations largely came from having very high levels of BPE as part of their stat scaling. It is nice to see the passive bonuses being removed from gambits and builders, because this put bad incentives on the playstyle of wardens - forcing a particular meta when tanking mobs. However, there is no indication that Wardens are getting big buffs to their BPE as these rating buffs are being removed. I fear that this will negatively impact their tanking identity. Evade in particular looks like it is still going to be basically zero.

I encourage you to look at your character panel while tanking during the next Bullroarer. Your B/P/E are still very high while you're maintaining your defensive buffs. And your actual damage reduction will be lower (from -Inc Damage and from higher Mitigation %) for the entire time you're tanking, which reduces your pressure to have maxed-out B/P/E. Wardens on live right now can reach 100% partial-or-full B/P/E without much sweat, but that's clearly not enough to make them viable challenge raid tanks.

- Despite disagreeing with a very large amount of what he wrote, I second Frau's concern that many of the tanking traits Wardens have require costs that do not make sense, especially compared with the tanking meta. Other tanks get better benefits to their defences in their tanking lines than Wardens, despite having far superior passive mitigations. It makes no sense. Wardens should be head and shoulders above other tanks in the BPE and partial BPE department in the same way heavy armour is head and shoulders above in armour mitigations. IT is the only tool they have that allows them to survive the beginning of big encounters, while they are supposed to wait for self heals to kick in. It is not something that they should need to spend time ramping up in order to merely become competitive as tanks.

With the recent increases to your Mitigations, -Inc Damage, defensive cooldowns, and improved self-healing, B/P/E simply isn't as big a part of the picture of warden tanking. Ever since the introduction of boss skills & mechanics which bypass B/P/E, this idea of the warden as the B/P/E tank has been a lost cause.

- With Assailment gambits becoming a ranged mirror of melee gambits, it seems to me there is a risk that the warden may end up becoming a range DPS. Javelin DPS rating is way higher, so DoT and initial damage will always scale higher with javelin gambits. The increased animation speed in determination stance has historically not made up for this.

I'm hopeful that this will be fixed in time for the next Bullroarer. Javelin DPS values will be adjusted downward to be match other 1h weapons, so you'll have no inherent damage difference between melee/ranged skills and effects.

[OnnMacMahal]

/vote Option 3

Keep it simple and flexible.

Will you tie in bonuses under-the-hood to our base stats, or LIs, or traits, or...?

This version of gambit chains no longer provides a direct buff to the damage, healing, or effect duration of your gambits. Using a gambit and starting a new chain will have no effect on any other skills or gambits. When you complete a chain, you'll gain an Advanced Technique (and a defensive buff for Determination wardens).

[OnnMacMahal]

Non-gambit skills will already be limited by their cooldowns (and maybe power cost). Why add another layer on top of that?

Going back to the thread I started last August about the state of the Warden (and really extending all the way back to when the class was introduced) there's been an ongoing request to get more direct skills in your kit, especially for tanking. At the same time, many folks feel that having a lot of direct skills conflicts with the core idea of the class: a proactive combo class, thinking ahead and using a small number of basic builders to create a complex sequence of outputs. The gambit chain and Advanced Technique were created to bridge the gap to a degree, requiring you to ramp up with gambit sequences and giving you the ability to 'spend' that mechanical gameplay energy on an instant skill.

For tanking, an incoming damage reduction cooldown will always be superior to other types of emergency skills (" For the free peoples " could fill that purpose). We should be able to get all the self-healing we require from our gambits. And we have two forced taunts, which is standard for aggro management. If we want more threat, we just have to use some of our damaging gambits. As long as our self-buffing brings us at least on par with other tank classes (maybe slightly higher, since they have several emergency skills), we should be golden. (Plus or minus a utility skill for the group I guess, but that could be our debuffs like marked / diminished target, suppression, battering strike, etc. which you all tied to gambits already.)

For dps, we already have Recklessness. We'll be getting better self-buffs with improved Adroit Manoeuvre and Warden's Triumph. We'll even have some burst capabilities by consuming our bleeds. That seems to put us in a better spot already without the need for extra skills.

Keep in mind, several old skills were removed, so the number of skills on your bar will actually be lower after these changes go live.

[OnnMacMahal]

Its long desired blue warden spring but please consider making it castable/usable on move.
At his curent state to be able to use it, you need to stop for 1 second, which is too much and make it pointless to spend points in yellow.

Unfortunately, there's a technical limitation that prevents Ambush from being usable while running. However, it will not root you in place for the duration of the animation (as it currently does on live). I made sure that you don't get stuck, so you really have to pause for just the briefest moment to initiate the skill, then you can move freely. When you get the chance to try it, you'll notice that you can move quite far even before the speed boost is applied to you - which happens when the skill finishes executing.

Also i dont see the point of Fellowship Protector.
We are already mitigation capped/ even before u35 and as far as i know no one use this talent.
Pls give us better capstone, make it apply to fellow/raid members, or just remove.

Agreed. Fellowship Protector has now also been changed (so you'll see it on the next Bullroarer). Fellowship Protector now causes you to pulse out an -Incoming Damage buff to your fellowship when you consume a max-tier '3 Advanced Technique' buff.

And why try "force" ppl to use exultation of battle by buffing it ?
Skill is useless for 5 builders gambit. No one gona hard build it, and few will waste 2 importand masteries for it.
Better buff Resolution.

All of the morale-taps and self-heals should be balanced alongside one another. Why have EoB at all if it's so much worse than Resolution? You should feel encouraged to use both Fierce Resolve and EoB if you feel you have enough time to get them rolling before hitting Resolution.

[Sirlat]

I am still seeing complete silence on taunts / AT mechanic issues for warden tank.

A very simple question should be being asked with these changes ....

Do you have a single solitary warden that can tank t3 HOA/HOR with these changes ?

That should be a MINIMUM goal for the changes (for blue). Right now (on live) I can tank t1 HOA. I can tank SOME 3/6 t2. Now I do not have absolutely perfect gear but it is REALLY good. (HOA/Gold cloak from Delvings etc). My guard on the other hand could tank t2 with much less. I see no way wardens are tanking t3 content with the current changes, and several things like threat have gotten even worse.

Biggest issues I see are ...
1. There are lots of fights where we need non damaging taunts (corruptions, mob effects etc). The only thing we have right now is Defiant. We are a tank without any "taunt" skills except Warning shot (i mean suicide shot) and Defiant. Its like trying to be a champ tank but without the damage!

2. The AT mechanic for tank "emergency skills" is useless.
- you have to build up AT before you can use it
- you have to use 3 skills to use one emergency skill (DesC + correct gambit + actual skill i want to use)
- you cannot "pre" set up your skill to use and just have it ready because it is ONLY available for 30s after activating DC. Even if i do not use a skill it goes on cooldown.

Now maybe if these skills were amazing it might be worth all the effort that goes into them, but they are not. They are no where as good as guardian emergency skills (i play guard tank as well).

I encourage you to look at your character panel while tanking during the next Bullroarer. Your B/P/E are still very high while you're maintaining your defensive buffs. And your actual damage reduction will be lower (from -Inc Damage and from higher Mitigation %) for the entire time you're tanking, which reduces your pressure to have maxed-out B/P/E. Wardens on live right now can reach 100% partial-or-full B/P/E without much sweat, but that's clearly not enough to make them viable challenge raid tanks.


With the recent increases to your Mitigations, -Inc Damage, defensive cooldowns, and improved self-healing, B/P/E simply isn't as big a part of the picture of warden tanking. Ever since the introduction of boss skills & mechanics which bypass B/P/E, this idea of the warden as the B/P/E tank has been a lost cause.

I am ok with this to an extent. If B/P/E isnt viable then it isnt viable. But you still need more work on the amount of damage we are taking. Simply - its not enough right now. It doesnt matter what your healing/BPE/etc is when you get one shotted. It also doesnt matter if we cannot keep aggro.

[Plidak]

I am still seeing complete silence on taunts / AT mechanic issues for warden tank.

.

Skiping comenting it means only 1 thing, it goes live ....
I dont know what to say or think man. Do those ppl even test it outside training dummy or open world mobs.
3 decades of gaming, most of the time tanking. For all this time i saw zero / like 0 games using similar skills.
Not for tanks. There are skill which greatly increase your ofensive potention in price of defence, but as DPS class, and you are not supposed to pop them when have boss or pressure on you. Trying to survive / and wardens try harder/ keeping agro, and in same time buffing the boss is a bad joke.
I guess LOTRO wins inovation prize here ....
In BR Resounding Challenge in blue line should provide agro increase over time ?
Tested on BR but i didnt notice such efect. Cant find in discription. I see no buff on me after using it. Also no debuff under target bar? DO it even works or it got removed ?Bugged ?


Will we /wardens/ get compensated in some way ? Because outside weekly t1 runs we wont be invited as tank and this turns our gaming experience to solo play.
We are not wanted as tank now. We are skipped as dps, because semi naked champs and hunters do 5x our dmg by spamming 3 keys and not suffering from lag.
Lord , out pms get ignore even for activities like SV t2 and Doom t3... Ignored as tank AND as dps ...
If you think the new red "buffs" will change that, you are wrong.
I dont rly care about red line but i tested a lot of it and there are so many flaws. Wont mention them because they wont get adressed anyway.
IF wrd get spot in dps ranks it will be because of the debuffs it provide, not because of his dmg / same thing we have on live now.
"Good thing" is that there will be always spot for dps warden, because there is no way a decent grp take blue as tank ...
So wardens rejoice, your spot is asured.

This is not the place to ask ### are you doing with red captain, skyrocketing his dots dmg, making them hit every sec, and aoe spread them with press of one key, while dot class like warden, need to bang all over his keyboard to spread some aoe pressure*** so i wont ask ....

Il be hapy if atleast one of the big changess classes have fun.
Sad wont be the one i play.

Waiting for next BR build, if there are no changes, and same blue silence about requested fixes, then il know is time to change class.
Im sure most of the ppl who planed to play wardens already look for other class.
I cant recall a single person maining the class, outside th Moors jav spamming entusiats ....

[PreemptiveRegret]

With the recent increases to your Mitigations, -Inc Damage, defensive cooldowns, and improved self-healing, B/P/E simply isn't as big a part of the picture of warden tanking. Ever since the introduction of boss skills & mechanics which bypass B/P/E, this idea of the warden as the B/P/E tank has been a lost cause.

If you can and should give up dysfunctional designs from the past why are you doubling down on turning Warden into a buff maintenance bot? Especially out of combat this is painfully dull and will definitely drive people away from the class. None of the buffs are interesting and all functionally do the same thing, that is no damage, no target, and they just reduce the damage you take (the fact 1 reduces tact and the other phys does not constitute a meaningful difference). You could easily and should definitely consolidate these effects into 1 or 2 gambits and give the other gambits some meaningful and engaging gameplay function instead.

I outlined some general examples in a prior post itt.

[Sindhol]

I encourage you to look at your character panel while tanking during the next Bullroarer. Your B/P/E are still very high while you're maintaining your defensive buffs. And your actual damage reduction will be lower (from -Inc Damage and from higher Mitigation %) for the entire time you're tanking, which reduces your pressure to have maxed-out B/P/E. Wardens on live right now can reach 100% partial-or-full B/P/E without much sweat, but that's clearly not enough to make them viable challenge raid tanks.

With the recent increases to your Mitigations, -Inc Damage, defensive cooldowns, and improved self-healing, B/P/E simply isn't as big a part of the picture of warden tanking. Ever since the introduction of boss skills & mechanics which bypass B/P/E, this idea of the warden as the B/P/E tank has been a lost cause.

So your solution to partial BPE not being strong enough is to... nerf partial BPE some more? If BPE isn't that strong, how about just keeping partials at 100%, and building from that? You could add some extra partial mitigation to turn it into a really solid defence against common melee and ranged attacks, and then build gambits (and cooldowns) around responding to the big attacks (that bypass BPE). For example, add the old A Warden's Strength +6% partial BPE to Advanced Defence, bring back partial block buffs to the Perservere line, add some partial mitigations to Stand Your Ground, and you've revitalized a mechanic that'd fallen behind a bit. Is it the new über-defence? No, but it's a reliable and appreciated part of the new warden.

The concept of having a bunch of dull gambit buffs is bad. Doing away with the warden's strengths and making them exactly like an average tank is also bad. Lean into the concept, not away from it. If the concept isn't strong in the current meta, support it, even with skills that don't entirely fit (like cooldowns), but don't nerf the concept and do the boring predictable thing (i.e. -inc damage buffs, gambits all doing one thing, etcetera). As I said before, having a choice of warden builds (one boring, one interesting) would be good, but the interesting side should be the powerful side.

I think a return to 95-115 cap era Defiant Challenge (at half strength, of course) would be much more fun and interesting than cycling dull gambit buffs and spending AT. I don't mind maintaining the AT buff, as it's basically encouraging the player to run through gambits quickly, which is kind of the point of the class, but spending is definitely makes cooldowns clunky. I mean, I haven't been mentioning a return to the Throne era DC lately because there's some disagreement over that incarnation of DC, but it might look better now (compared to AT).

A lot of this stuff isn't exactly new:
What I like about DC mit buff. (And a response to someone who doesn't like it at all.)
Gambit benefits vs. gambit buffs (A bit more on why I think gambits like Shield Mastery are bad.)
Again on the DC mit buff, not having more gambit buffs.

[CaerArianrhod]

Wardens on live right now can reach 100% partial-or-full B/P/E without much sweat,

This is just wrong and a really unwanted proof about not playing the class in endgame content.
You just can't.
No, I am not going into details about that, because they have been said in countless treads and posting over the last years here in the forum. However ...

but that's clearly not enough to make them viable challenge raid tanks.
With the recent increases to your Mitigations, -Inc Damage, defensive cooldowns, and improved self-healing, B/P/E simply isn't as big a part of the picture of warden tanking. Ever since the introduction of boss skills & mechanics which bypass B/P/E, this idea of the warden as the B/P/E tank has been a lost cause.

At least ... after 6 or 7 years of being silent about this topic, SSG confess the problem.
My question is now: do you know why it took so long for SSG to realize what they did wrong with the class?

[Skoch]

B/P/E Tank is premise behind wardens wearing medium armor/agility class...
Is it time to discuss Heavy Armor and making NS a heal + short damage immunity (to prevent the 1-shot)? This way we can tank?




PS: We've never had a 100% BPE capability ever, Guardians do have that 100% block,
but again here we are at a crossroads fighting a big baddie boss that can't be BPE'd...
square one or create new skill/adjust skills to give wardens "death throw save"?

[Elwha]

I gave up on a Warden tanking a long time ago. What's needed is, implement a blue line capstone with some new mech tied to gambits that provides 90-100+% mits over a period of time + anything else needed not to get 1-shot. If you fail to gambit, you die, it should be that simple. I guess we'll find out in BR-3 if we'll be viable in anything.


While I'm here, here's a QoL change for all lines that shouldn't take much effort.

• First Aid: Remove up to 3 DoTs or adjust cooldown to 1-2 seconds

[Eadondryt]

This is just not true ... and is a serious problem for tanking. Part of the reason these were added (based on info given) was to provide emergency skills for tanks which we are seriously lacking.




Here are the issues with this mechanic as I see them.


1. Before we can use a "normal cooldown skill", we first have to use Desperate Combat to activate them.
2. Then once that is done we have to make sure we have used the correct "type" of other skill first before we can fire this normal (emergency) skill (fist/shield etc)
3. Assuming all that has actually happened, as a tank, i want my emergency skill sitting there ready to use but guess what! As a nice twist if you dont actually use the emergency skill it goes away and goes on cooldown for ~ 1min. (DesComb has a 1:30 cooldown, the skills stay available for 30s).


We need to be able to use these skills in an emergency, not after punching two other skills. We cant pre setup what we might need becuase if we dont use it we are locked out of the skill for a minute. At best for "emergency" we build 3AT and just wait. Emergency occurs and HOPEFULLY we can get off DC + required gambit + emergency skill .... before we die. Please make it so they stay around until used or the full 1:30 cooldown.

I am sorry but you are not really correct here: Wardens have instant cooldowns available.
1. Restorative Shield work - instant
2. The Way of the Shield - instant (requires a previously used shield gambit)
3. For the Free Peoples - instant

You picked one cooldown to complain about, and applied it to all the cooldowns.

Desperate combat is.... lacklustre though.
Desperate spear - 3% inc damagee debuff. (Break ranks 40%, Gut Punch 20% etc): This needs to be stronger (not comparable, just stronger) to make Warden group utility at least close, otherwise the other tanks will remain meta
Desperate shield - we have this covered by resolution if we need an AoE heal.
Desperate fist - Forced taunt with no aggro copy. OK situational, but if you don't already have aggro locked down after 4 gambits required to built the AT - then its going to continue to be an issue.


You are also applying the wrong skills to the wrong situations.
For bosses, you will be popping FtFP and Restorative shield work. 10% heal, each time you are hit, with a morale pool of 2 million that would be 200-300k healed on hit. Plus 50% partial block, so any physical hits from the boss would also be reduced.

Finally, your argument about mits being the same on live as BR: this is objectively not the case.

We have the same mitigations RAW, but we now also have -12% incoming damage from two new gambits.
-5% outgoing damage in the form of suppression

More -incoming damage % for cashing out max stacks of AT (12% on BR but likely to be less live)
Wardens are considerably tankier on BR than on live. Not as tanky as the other tanks, but we have the self-healing to bridge the gap, which is the point of the class.

[Plidak]

I am sorry but you are not really correct here: Wardens have instant cooldowns available.
1. Restorative Shield work - instant
2. The Way of the Shield - instant (requires a previously used shield gambit)
3. For the Free Peoples - instant

You picked one cooldown to complain about, and applied it to all the cooldowns.
.

He have right to complain tho.
All 3 you mentioned do close to nothing without AT.
Also TWS need to be PREpared in advance.
With spiky boss fights we have, + XX buffs to keep up +Boss mechanic and trash agro contro /aka mobile fights, AND lag, and will be hard, close to imposible to mantain all.
Will give you example with cash out skills. They require 5 builders man. Five .... While they need to be insta, and no target required.
We need STAND alone insta skills, not such which used withou prebuilding do close to nothing / aka 10% dmg reduce for 10 sec ...

Gambits like Shield Up should add threat over time and do ST or AoE dmg, similar to guardian Chant.
With all those buffs to keep, we will be out of masteries, and i dont see way we keep agro. If you think you will hard build gambits, good luck. On static fight MAYBE possible, but most of the time you will end up kicked from raid / if you even find a spot to be in such.
Threat from healing wont be a factor anymore, not after removing of tact healing from Javelins. Who come with this bright idea btw ..............
Anyway, lets wait for BR build 3 and then everything will be clear.

[Jutirillaa]

Any chance we could get a +5% spear damage similar to captains who got a +5% halberd damage or burglars who get a +5% to daggers? Would fit the theme of warden, even though swords would still be preferred due to the increased parry benefit. Just my 2 cents

[Sirlat]

I am sorry but you are not really correct here: Wardens have instant cooldowns available.
1. Restorative Shield work - instant
2. The Way of the Shield - instant (requires a previously used shield gambit)
3. For the Free Peoples - instant

You picked one cooldown to complain about, and applied it to all the cooldowns.

Desperate combat is.... lacklustre though.
Desperate spear - 3% inc damagee debuff. (Break ranks 40%, Gut Punch 20% etc): This needs to be stronger (not comparable, just stronger) to make Warden group utility at least close, otherwise the other tanks will remain meta
Desperate shield - we have this covered by resolution if we need an AoE heal.
Desperate fist - Forced taunt with no aggro copy. OK situational, but if you don't already have aggro locked down after 4 gambits required to built the AT - then its going to continue to be an issue.


You are also applying the wrong skills to the wrong situations.
For bosses, you will be popping FtFP and Restorative shield work. 10% heal, each time you are hit, with a morale pool of 2 million that would be 200-300k healed on hit. Plus 50% partial block, so any physical hits from the boss would also be reduced.

Finally, your argument about mits being the same on live as BR: this is objectively not the case.

We have the same mitigations RAW, but we now also have -12% incoming damage from two new gambits.
-5% outgoing damage in the form of suppression

More -incoming damage % for cashing out max stacks of AT (12% on BR but likely to be less live)
Wardens are considerably tankier on BR than on live. Not as tanky as the other tanks, but we have the self-healing to bridge the gap, which is the point of the class.

If you noticed my post was specifically about the AT mechanic for tanking skills and Taunts.

Yes FtFP is better on BR, we have this on live and while its an "instant" the buildup sucked
Way of the shield - You have to use another gambit prior - thats not instant (Same issue with AT)

Restorative shieldwork is mostly useless, at base its a heal pot (20%), at max its a 50% heal (while taking 5 hits). If you have HoTs runing they heal more than this. Compare that to Guard Catch a breath which with LIs 30s cd and a 40% insta heal. Thats not even an "emergency" skill. For that you would have to compare it to warriors heart, or thrill, or pledge or juggernaunt ....

I didnt pick one cooldown, i was specifically targeting the AT mechanic and cooldowns for tanking.


I said mits are "about" the same ... and they are. Note that -12% in comming dmg does not = 12% mitigation becuase (if I remember correctly) previous testing has shown this is applied last in the calculation for damage. (Final Dmg after partials/ mits etc)*88%. So depending on how much dmg you are mitigating up front that number is much much smaller.

We did have a -%5 on warning shot (now suicide shot)

I agree they are "tankier" just not by much, and not nearly enough to make t3 content tankable by a warden. Have you tried? I have tested. Event though i had pretty good gear I spent all the time to get max gear with all the EnG venders, maxed out pretty much everything. Still cant single tank HOA B1s on t2 (I can tank one one live already). Still get oneshotted by HOA B2. Not near enough threat for pulls in between. Thats t2! I dont even want to think about t3. Heals dont matter if you cant survive long enough.

As i said in my last post, simply put - it is not enough.

[Plidak]

Any chance we could get a +5% spear damage similar to captains who got a +5% halberd damage or burglars who get a +5% to daggers? Would fit the theme of warden, even though swords would still be preferred due to the increased parry benefit. Just my 2 cents

In red Grand Master Weapon Training discription says that bleeds happens more often (old) + Greatly increase dmg from spear bleeds (new) How GREATLY it is i didnt test, but its something

[Plidak]

Still cant single tank HOA B1s on t2 (I can tank one one live already). Still get oneshotted by HOA B2. Not near enough threat for pulls in between. Thats t2! I dont even want to think about t3. Heals dont matter if you cant survive long enough.

.

You test last BR build ? T2 HH ? Where you find ppl ? It was all set raid or you missed clases like burg and lm ?

[Sirlat]

You test last BR build ? T2 HH ? Where you find ppl ? It was all set raid or you missed clases like burg and lm ?

Had to drag some people over from kin live to even get it close. Did a lot of testing on HOR t2 as well and B1 still impossible. Since we pretty much cant use our hots (because we cant stop) that one is one of the worst. Its one of the few places i thought RSW might be helpful but ... Nope.

Believe me id be EXTREMELY happy if someone came along and said, hey you are just not doing it right, i can tank HOA 2/3 etc. As far as i can tell though this is still impossible.

Was also trying to run some parses to compare to live on dmg taken but its harder to do an apples to apples comparison there where healing is a bit easier. Id ideally run the instances multiple times which is pretty much impossible with the amount of folks on BR and the limited amount of time they are open. Been talking with some kinnies and i think we are gonna do multiple SH runs next time around to get some parse data.

[Plidak]

Had to drag some people over from kin live to even get it close. Did a lot of testing on HOR t2 as well and B1 still impossible. Since we pretty much cant use our hots (because we cant stop) that one is one of the worst. Its one of the few places i thought RSW might be helpful but ... Nope.

Believe me id be EXTREMELY happy if someone came along and said, hey you are just not doing it right, i can tank HOA 2/3 etc. As far as i can tell though this is still impossible.

Was also trying to run some parses to compare to live on dmg taken but its harder to do an apples to apples comparison there where healing is a bit easier. Id ideally run the instances multiple times which is pretty much impossible with the amount of folks on BR and the limited amount of time they are open. Been talking with some kinnies and i think we are gonna do multiple SH runs next time around to get some parse data.

I do believe you.
HoR t2 boss 1 i tank on spot, but t3 + is imposible even with bear and cpt speeding you up, you just cant build HoTs. Also need to maintain agro.

"As far as i can tell though this is still impossible." You mean HoA right ? Even t2 ?

We see what we get in inc BR build. Thanks for respond

[Eadondryt]

If you noticed my post was specifically about the AT mechanic for tanking skills and Taunts.

Yes FtFP is better on BR, we have this on live and while its an "instant" the buildup sucked
Way of the shield - You have to use another gambit prior - thats not instant (Same issue with AT)

Restorative shieldwork is mostly useless, at base its a heal pot (20%), at max its a 50% heal (while taking 5 hits). If you have HoTs runing they heal more than this. Compare that to Guard Catch a breath which with LIs 30s cd and a 40% insta heal. Thats not even an "emergency" skill. For that you would have to compare it to warriors heart, or thrill, or pledge or juggernaunt ....

I didnt pick one cooldown, i was specifically targeting the AT mechanic and cooldowns for tanking.


I said mits are "about" the same ... and they are. Note that -12% in comming dmg does not = 12% mitigation becuase (if I remember correctly) previous testing has shown this is applied last in the calculation for damage. (Final Dmg after partials/ mits etc)*88%. So depending on how much dmg you are mitigating up front that number is much much smaller.

We did have a -%5 on warning shot (now suicide shot)

I agree they are "tankier" just not by much, and not nearly enough to make t3 content tankable by a warden. Have you tried? I have tested. Event though i had pretty good gear I spent all the time to get max gear with all the EnG venders, maxed out pretty much everything. Still cant single tank HOA B1s on t2 (I can tank one one live already). Still get oneshotted by HOA B2. Not near enough threat for pulls in between. Thats t2! I dont even want to think about t3. Heals dont matter if you cant survive long enough.

As i said in my last post, simply put - it is not enough.

Yes I have tried.
I am sorry to say that if you can't tank HOA B1 on T2 then it is a skill issue not a class issue, because that is doable as a solo tank on live without all these buffs.

Proof: https://youtu.be/AXk-aC4W_TU

And before you say there is also guard there - they were passive and just watched.

[Plidak]

Yes I have tried.
I am sorry to say that if you can't tank HOA B1 on T2 then it is a skill issue not a class issue, because that is doable as a solo tank on live without all these buffs.

Proof: https://youtu.be/AXk-aC4W_TU

And before you say there is also guard there - they were passive and just watched.

Hey there.
First i respect your opinion, but i do have some questions.
Do you play warden ? (any spec)
Do you have warden tank in your raid grp?
Do you have a friend /not someone you heard about'/ who tank t2+ (any content) on warden ?
Im sure the answer for all this question is no. Am i wrong ?
Then when is no, what the ... you are here telling ppl they lack skill when you have zero experience with the class ?

You linked that video of PREMADE grp doing t2 boss 1 HH with FULLY geared warden tank /gear he got as dps, because i know/talk with the guy year ago and i know his progres and stugle/
Is not true that second tank do nothing there. He provide Break Ranks for raid /i wont flame you if you dont know what this do/ also debuff all 3 bosses dmg, and tbh i saw him taking agro few times.
But most importand, he is there to not get wiped when warden die. And he was about to do so few times.
In same time i tanked boss 1 with my beor tank/premade grp/ no burg/with lm tossed out of the platform in roll 1st.
Tanked last boss hh t2 on brawler with 3 ppl less in raid, no support classes, and only 2 healers /both beas/ and guardian as other tank. Was smooth and funy experience, few ppl died FEW times /me included/ but we did it.
And on my guardian i dont remember tanking boss 1 with second tank. Even when i was with semi yellow gear. YET my warden get squished. In all those 3 encounters. With gear better than my other tanks combined. AFTER Li lvl increase and sh/t.
So my dear friend, is not about playe skills only. Its about the class too. Wont mention the few runs while our PUG captain tank doesnt even need to be swaped on Hrimil t2+

There is him tanking bat boss (t5)




And there is me doing it on semi yellow geared guard, doing it with randoms for the first time on my live [the dungeon on tier i mean] first time was on t4 a minutes before this video. Before boss nerfs.



Il let you find the diferences.

Also cleared HoR t5 regulary with zero issues. While i cant even imagine beating boss 1 (t3+) on my brawler or warden. even with full gear and good grp.
The same guy from the video never beat boss 1 HoR. Im not sure do he menaged to clear boss 2 and 3 on t4/5. I guess not. And he run with premade grp of friends. Also his skill level is way above decent. So if he cant do it, doubpt sm1 else can... He also think that wrd need buff, and for good reason.

Again. Ofc you have right to coment and share opinion even for classes you dont play, but dont blame ppl and dont speak like wrd is the second best tank out here, and if you fail to do smth its because you cant play it. Is trash. And its trash from long time Comming from someone who love the class.

Bye and have fun