Warden Changes and Feedback

[Eadondryt]

Hey there.
First i respect your opinion, but i do have some questions.
Do you play warden ? (any spec)
Do you have warden tank in your raid grp?
Do you have a friend /not someone you heard about'/ who tank t2+ (any content) on warden ?
Im sure the answer for all this question is no. Am i wrong ?
Then when is no, what the ... you are here telling ppl they lack skill when you have zero experience with the class ?

You linked that video of PREMADE grp doing t2 boss 1 HH with FULLY geared warden tank /gear he got as dps, because i know/talk with the guy year ago and i know his progres and stugle/
Is not true that second tank do nothing there. He provide Break Ranks for raid /i wont flame you if you dont know what this do/ also debuff all 3 bosses dmg, and tbh i saw him taking agro few times.
But most importand, he is there to not get wiped when warden die. And he was about to do so few times.
In same time i tanked boss 1 with my beor tank/premade grp/ no burg/with lm tossed out of the platform in roll 1st.
Tanked last boss hh t2 on brawler with 3 ppl less in raid, no support classes, and only 2 healers /both beas/ and guardian as other tank. Was smooth and funy experience, few ppl died FEW times /me included/ but we did it.
And on my guardian i dont remember tanking boss 1 with second tank. Even when i was with semi yellow gear. YET my warden get squished. In all those 3 encounters. With gear better than my other tanks combined. AFTER Li lvl increase and sh/t.
So my dear friend, is not about playe skills only. Its about the class too. Wont mention the few runs while our PUG captain tank doesnt even need to be swaped on Hrimil t2+

There is him tanking bat boss (t5)




And there is me doing it on semi yellow geared guard, doing it with randoms for the first time on my live [the dungeon on tier i mean] first time was on t4 a minutes before this video. Before boss nerfs.



Il let you find the diferences.

Also cleared HoR t5 regulary with zero issues. While i cant even imagine beating boss 1 (t3+) on my brawler or warden. even with full gear and good grp.
The same guy from the video never beat boss 1 HoR. Im not sure do he menaged to clear boss 2 and 3 on t4/5. I guess not. And he run with premade grp of friends. Also his skill level is way above decent. So if he cant do it, doubpt sm1 else can... He also think that wrd need buff, and for good reason.

Again. Ofc you have right to coment and share opinion even for classes you dont play, but dont blame ppl and dont speak like wrd is the second best tank out here, and if you fail to do smth its because you cant play it. Is trash. And its trash from long time Comming from someone who love the class.

Bye and have fun

That tank is me, does that answer your questions about if I know what I am talking about?
That video is a PUG

I cleared HOR Boss 1 - but I had to use a run speed scroll

The video of that bat on T5 was with a blue captain healer, with was like the most sub-obtimal group setup just for giggles.
I was clearing it on T5 regularly with a meta healer.

But my point stands, if I can clear Boss 1 T2 solo on a warden before the buffs, people should have no problem doing it after the buffs.

Here is a video of AoD T5 on BR to show just how tanky the warden is after the changes:
https://youtu.be/j_x5vTkYiZI

[Plidak]

That tank is me, does that answer your questions about if I know what I am talking about?

Then you should remember the talk we had about last boss /on t2/ HH.
That there is no way wrd cant tank it no matter the grp setup.
Or you may not. 1y pass. But ye nothing changed. Now Li update may be possible, but do wrd need to wait end of the content/ and lead the charge/ deeds removal to be able to do t2, while all other tanks / chimp included/ can push t3 on release ?

I dont see your point defending curent wrd position when we both know the class is meme.

And pug grp or not, im sure you will tank on any other tank with less sweat.
And which video is pug ? HH boss 1 ?
Semi pug maybe. Because pug wont let you tank at all / on wrd. Even with guard support.
Or we play diferent games. We are both on Enight. I pug on XX toons weekly. Yet i wait to see a wrd tank puging t2

[Eadondryt]

Then you should remember the talk we had about last boss /on t2/ HH.
That there is no way wrd cant tank it no matter the grp setup.
Or you may not. 1y pass. But ye nothing changed. Now Li update may be possible, but do wrd need to wait end of the content/ and lead the charge/ deeds removal to be able to do t2, while all other tanks / chimp included/ can push t3 on release ?

I dont see your point defending curent wrd position when we both know the class is meme.

And pug grp or not, im sure you will tank on any other tank with less sweat.
And which video is pug ? HH boss 1 ?
Semi pug maybe. Because pug wont let you tank at all / on wrd. Even with guard support.
Or we play diferent games. We are both on Enight. I pug on XX toons weekly. Yet i wait to see a wrd tank puging t2

You don't see my point, because I am not making that point.

My point was, and is, the person I replied to was saying the changes were barely better than live, and from my own testing that is objectively not the case.

You then assumed (rather arrogantly) I was someone who didn't play warden at all and had no idea what I was talking about, and that you know better.

I have tested live vs BR and it is a SIGNIFICANT improvement.
If it brings us in line with the rest of the tanks, that remains to be seen/tested but the changes are much stronger than the person I was replying to was claiming, and that if HH B1 T2 can be done live, he should have no trouble doing it on BR even with a moderately geared warden.
If he is unable to do so, then something is either wrong with his gearing, or skill, and I stand by that point.

[Plidak]

You don't see my point, because I am not making that point.

My point was, and is, the person I replied to was saying the changes were barely better than live, and from my own testing that is objectively not the case.

You then assumed (rather arrogantly) I was someone who didn't play warden at all and had no idea what I was talking about, and that you know better.

I have tested live vs BR and it is a SIGNIFICANT improvement.
If it brings us in line with the rest of the tanks, that remains to be seen/tested but the changes are much stronger than the person I was replying to was claiming, and that if HH B1 T2 can be done live, he should have no trouble doing it on BR even with a moderately geared warden.
If he is unable to do so, then something is either wrong with his gearing, or skill, and I stand by that point.

The class LOOKS better than life but is actualy way worse / blue line atleast.
We speak again 1 month after it goes live.
And im assuming nothing.
You do sound unexperienced and you kinda are. Because you never tanked and never will smth above boss 1 t2. /mayebe boss 2 now but hardly.
And this counts for all blue wardens out there/ me included.
I did try Hrimil for the joke. Joke was on me ...
And about BR. Till we get changes from someone who dont play wrd, we wont see the class improved

[Eadondryt]

The class LOOKS better than life but is actualy way worse / blue line atleast.
We speak again 1 month after it goes live.
And im assuming nothing.
You do sound unexperienced and you kinda are. Because you never tanked and never will smth above boss 1 t2. /mayebe boss 2 now but hardly.
And this counts for all blue wardens out there/ me included.
I did try Hrimil for the joke. Joke was on me ...
And about BR. Till we get changes from someone who dont play wrd, we wont see the class improved

You assume a lot. You just assumed I am inexperienced.
I’ve been tanking on warden since Moria. I literally have a YouTube channel dedicated to warden tanking.
I wrote the (now outdated) blue warden guide on LotroHQ.

But sure, I’m inexperienced. Ok buddy.

[olimaxnik]

You don't see my point, because I am not making that point.

My point was, and is, the person I replied to was saying the changes were barely better than live, and from my own testing that is objectively not the case.

You then assumed (rather arrogantly) I was someone who didn't play warden at all and had no idea what I was talking about, and that you know better.

I have tested live vs BR and it is a SIGNIFICANT improvement.
If it brings us in line with the rest of the tanks, that remains to be seen/tested but the changes are much stronger than the person I was replying to was claiming, and that if HH B1 T2 can be done live, he should have no trouble doing it on BR even with a moderately geared warden.
If he is unable to do so, then something is either wrong with his gearing, or skill, and I stand by that point.

100% Agree with that. There is absolutley no doubt that the current state of the warden on BR is much better than on the live Servers. Unfortunatley I also have no comparison to other tanks, but to claim that there is no Improvement for the warden is just false.

[Plidak]

100% Agree with that. There is absolutley no doubt that the current state of the warden on BR is much better than on the live Servers. Unfortunatley I also have no comparison to other tanks, but to claim that there is no Improvement for the warden is just false.

I agree. Is much better. Way better. But wont bring him even close to any other tank. So at the end as i said, we will enjoy it in delvings and open world. Like we do now on live

[Eadondryt]

I agree. Is much better. Way better. But wont bring him even close to any other tank. So at the end as i said, we will enjoy it in delvings and open world. Like we do now on live

In your opinion.
Which you are entitled to.

See you when it drops live in Evernight.

[PreemptiveRegret]

Unfortunately, there's a technical limitation that prevents Ambush from being usable while running. However, it will not root you in place for the duration of the animation (as it currently does on live). I made sure that you don't get stuck, so you really have to pause for just the briefest moment to initiate the skill, then you can move freely. When you get the chance to try it, you'll notice that you can move quite far even before the speed boost is applied to you - which happens when the skill finishes executing.

Why not just add the Adroit/Stun functionality to Hampering Javelin instead then?

[Sirlat]

You don't see my point, because I am not making that point.

My point was, and is, the person I replied to was saying the changes were barely better than live, and from my own testing that is objectively not the case.

You then assumed (rather arrogantly) I was someone who didn't play warden at all and had no idea what I was talking about, and that you know better.

I have tested live vs BR and it is a SIGNIFICANT improvement.
If it brings us in line with the rest of the tanks, that remains to be seen/tested but the changes are much stronger than the person I was replying to was claiming, and that if HH B1 T2 can be done live, he should have no trouble doing it on BR even with a moderately geared warden.
If he is unable to do so, then something is either wrong with his gearing, or skill, and I stand by that point.

No one said it was not an improvement. I said it was "not enough". It is absolutely an improvement. I did say "mitigations" are about the same as on live, which is true. Also that the -12% inc dmg makes little difference compared to % mit. I also said the skills they gave us (for the amount of work that goes into them) are trash. They are lesser versions of other tank skills, take more work effort, and dont address the needs we have. And keeping threat is significantly worse.

I can duo tank HH t2 on live. I cannot solo tank it. I suspect if i had completely maxed gear and an awesome raid group i might could squeeze it. Those should not be requirements for completing t2. I shouldnt have to have gear from higher tiers to complete a lower tier. I know you said you did b1 on live, what about b2? Have you tried anything raid T2 or group T3 on BR? Small fellows are easy in comparison.

Several things are much better
Heals are undeniably better, FtFP is so much better. I think the skill consolidation while rather bland is better. Some of the yellow spec items are nice.

Some things could be much better - AT with some tweaking could be much much better. Tweak the skills a bit. Yellow if you dont want to do a threat copy at least put a greatly increased threat or something on it! Green - we dont need another resolution, ideally something for boss fights, mits, bpe bonus, bubble etc. Red - meh im a tank so not going to comment here. I also REALLY think the skills should be there until used or the full 130 cd. We cant "preprep" our AT skills for tanking so we are stuck with having to do 3 skills to use one (DC, X gambit, Skill to use). If they stayed available rather than going away after 30s you could use DC, then interweve between skills you need that are the right line for what you thinjk you might need - proactive like the warden is supposed to be. becuase it takes time ot use our skills we have to plan ahead for what we think we might need then adjust as the fight progresses. Another option would just have all 3 "types" available rather than based on the last gambit (still tied behind uses any of the skills decrement the use) That way we would just haave to DC - Skill which is much much faster. Right now its pretty clunky.

Some things are worse - Threat is horrible now, FT is your only real option (this was somewhat true even on live) but now all we have for threat gain is DC and suicide shot. Yes we have a new -5% outgoing dmg skill, but our FT negates that (and used to have -% on it!).

Some things are about the same - mitigations, mostly this was just moved around/consolidated.

I am also still holding out hope we will get more tanking traceries. That could change things.

[Eadondryt]

No one said it was not an improvement. I said it was "not enough". It is absolutely an improvement. I did say "mitigations" are about the same as on live, which is true. Also that the -12% inc dmg makes little difference compared to % mit. I also said the skills they gave us (for the amount of work that goes into them) are trash. They are lesser versions of other tank skills, take more work effort, and dont address the needs we have. And keeping threat is significantly worse.

I can duo tank HH t2 on live. I cannot solo tank it. I suspect if i had completely maxed gear and an awesome raid group i might could squeeze it. Those should not be requirements for completing t2. I shouldnt have to have gear from higher tiers to complete a lower tier. I know you said you did b1 on live, what about b2? Have you tried anything raid T2 or group T3 on BR? Small fellows are easy in comparison.

Several things are much better
Heals are undeniably better, FtFP is so much better. I think the skill consolidation while rather bland is better. Some of the yellow spec items are nice.

Some things could be much better - AT with some tweaking could be much much better. Tweak the skills a bit. Yellow if you dont want to do a threat copy at least put a greatly increased threat or something on it! Green - we dont need another resolution, ideally something for boss fights, mits, bpe bonus, bubble etc. Red - meh im a tank so not going to comment here. I also REALLY think the skills should be there until used or the full 130 cd. We cant "preprep" our AT skills for tanking so we are stuck with having to do 3 skills to use one (DC, X gambit, Skill to use). If they stayed available rather than going away after 30s you could use DC, then interweve between skills you need that are the right line for what you thinjk you might need - proactive like the warden is supposed to be. becuase it takes time ot use our skills we have to plan ahead for what we think we might need then adjust as the fight progresses. Another option would just have all 3 "types" available rather than based on the last gambit (still tied behind uses any of the skills decrement the use) That way we would just haave to DC - Skill which is much much faster. Right now its pretty clunky.

Some things are worse - Threat is horrible now, FT is your only real option (this was somewhat true even on live) but now all we have for threat gain is DC and suicide shot. Yes we have a new -5% outgoing dmg skill, but our FT negates that (and used to have -% on it!).

Some things are about the same - mitigations, mostly this was just moved around/consolidated.

I am also still holding out hope we will get more tanking traceries. That could change things.

We are getting tanking traceries on the next BR.

When you break the changes down individually, they don’t seem like much, but the result is the sum of the parts.

Vs live we get -17% incoming damage (suppression and the new gambits)
That is a LOT considering how strong the healing is now.

On my build on BR I was pushing 205k HPS without l a javelin equipped.

The best I could manage on live was 60k.

We will have to see how warden performs in a raid, but the changes are strong.

[Plidak]

There is the daily warden experience.


I didnt hide the names because this post is not to name/shame someone. Just to show that even in fresh raid, with no warden in it, and in outdated t2 casual run, no one need us, because even half naked 3 keys spamming hunter do better. (nothing against hunters)
Same with yellow, and even worse if you are blue, then you dont even get respond. PPl think you moke them...

Be sure this change / even if i dont see it changing, prove me wrong

We are getting tanking traceries on the next BR.

When you break the changes down individually, they don’t seem like much, but the result is the sum of the parts.

Vs live we get -17% incoming damage (suppression and the new gambits)
That is a LOT considering how strong the healing is now.

On my build on BR I was pushing 205k HPS without l a javelin equipped.

The best I could manage on live was 60k.

We will have to see how warden performs in a raid, but the changes are strong.

Tankish traceries we dont need. We are already t3 mit capped without them. Unless they give % mitigation they will be useless. Waiting to see.
About HPS =its ok but vont solve the one shot problem. Also warden is the worse ST kite tank, and i dont see any change to fix that. A sprint which requre 4 builders gambit and 1 sec stay still cast time wont solve the problem. Also there is no way to stack any hps while kite. remove 5 from 17. Every other tank have bigger mits than ours. *(after br b2 changes)
You have some point to call this changes huge/strong, but they are not even close to enough.
We need buffs, not a buffs to cast on boss....
BR b1 had persevere healing bugged/overboard. you sure you test it after fix ?
Also didnt they remove tact healing from javelins ? (dont ask me why)

[Kander]

My personal perception on last build was that I would be able to tank mostly all content in the game with these changes but only at the end of the expansion time. That is an improvement for sure, but certainly not even close to other tanks that can complete content when it's released, before having all BiS items and bosses have been nerfed or LIs levels has gone way up so we're substantially more powerful.

Do these changes make warden viable at tanking most content?, with lots of effort and way more skill than any other class, but yeah. Do these changes give a chance to a good warden tank to replace any worse geared guardian and captain? not even close as far as BR 2 was...

[Eadondryt]

There is the daily warden experience.


I didnt hide the names because this post is not to name/shame someone. Just to show that even in fresh raid, with no warden in it, and in outdated t2 casual run, no one need us, because even half naked 3 keys spamming hunter do better. (nothing against hunters)
Same with yellow, and even worse if you are blue, then you dont even get respond. PPl think you moke them...

Be sure this change / even if i dont see it changing, prove me wrong





Tankish traceries we dont need. We are already t3 mit capped without them. Unless they give % mitigation they will be useless. Waiting to see.
About HPS =its ok but vont solve the one shot problem. Also warden is the worse ST kite tank, and i dont see any change to fix that. A sprint which requre 4 builders gambit and 1 sec stay still cast time wont solve the problem. Also there is no way to stack any hps while kite. remove 5 from 17. Every other tank have bigger mits than ours. *(after br b2 changes)
You have some point to call this changes huge/strong, but they are not even close to enough.
We need buffs, not a buffs to cast on boss....
BR b1 had persevere healing bugged/overboard. you sure you test it after fix ?
Also didnt they remove tact healing from javelins ? (dont ask me why)

Are you still going to question if I know what I am talking about?

Let me prove it to you, yet again:

I tested the HPS on BR1 WITHOUT persevere because it was obviously broken.
I tested it on BR2 with persevere, both with a javelin equipped, and without a javelin equipped to pre-empt the upcoming javelin changes.

HPS in worst case for me was 200k
With javelin 250k

This was without pumping numbers to flex, this was simply Persevere, safeguard, restoration and conviction refreshed when they dropped off.
Live is 60k HPS in a raid, with conviction hitting others.

This is a 3x improvement in our healing, and will absolutely bridge the gap in the big hits.
Take 2x 1 million hits in 2 seconds. With 200k HPS you have mitigated 400k of that damage.

Which is around 22.5% (quick maths). Then if that still doesn’t save you, you have never surrender in the bank; and if you had it running before hand another one ready to go with 0 cool-down.

Tanking Traceries: We absolutely need these.

+first aid removal
+hot pulses
-cool-down skills
To replace the dead javelin traceries to start.

please realise I spent the last 2 years tanking raids people said wasn’t possible for a warden.
I know the difference between live and BR.

[Plidak]

Tanking Traceries: We absolutely need these.

+first aid removal
+hot pulses
-cool-down skills
To replace the dead javelin traceries to start.

please realise I spent the last 2 years tanking raids people said wasn’t possible for a warden.
I know the difference between live and BR.

No one question your skills. You played wrd on raids no one thougt wrd can do for ONE reason. You played with friends and kin and they let you experiment ? Its just a fair question.
Warden since release. After nerf played mostly 3 and 6 man and when gunda release up to t2 last boss raid,tried Hrimil 3 times, nope, cant do
Anyway, about the traceries. We NEED these, or we GET these ?
FA extra removal is a must.
Hot pulses are great but im still skeptical about self healing and raid bosses For instances will be handy.
-cd on skills ? Skills like ?
No beta this week so guess we see the changes on next one.
Test them too, even if only instances and landscape.
I do agree, on paper sounds great, but its only on papper, for now.
I asked you before (under one of your videos- hor boss 2 if i remember correct) and your answer was "we did it with captain because is faster"
1t boss in hor that is. So next time when you test on BR, and because you most likely have more friends or ppl willing to try than me, can you test this boss on any tier above 3+ and record it ? No matter the outcome. From this fight il see how much viable BR warden is compared to live.
(AGAIN) I dont question your skills. I just want to see ANY blue warden (and brawler) doing this HoR boss 1 fight. Thats all. (i dont want raid fights, with all buffs and changes is clear that wrb will be able to hold agains t2 atleast. For t3 il believe when i see it)
Thanks and have a great day.

[Eadondryt]

No one question your skills. You played wrd on raids no one thougt wrd can do for ONE reason. You played with friends and kin and they let you experiment ? Its just a fair question.
Warden since release. After nerf played mostly 3 and 6 man and when gunda release up to t2 last boss raid,tried Hrimil 3 times, nope, cant do
Anyway, about the traceries. We NEED these, or we GET these ?
FA extra removal is a must.
Hot pulses are great but im still skeptical about self healing and raid bosses For instances will be handy.
-cd on skills ? Skills like ?
No beta this week so guess we see the changes on next one.
Test them too, even if only instances and landscape.
I do agree, on paper sounds great, but its only on papper, for now.
I asked you before (under one of your videos- hor boss 2 if i remember correct) and your answer was "we did it with captain because is faster"
1t boss in hor that is. So next time when you test on BR, and because you most likely have more friends or ppl willing to try than me, can you test this boss on any tier above 3+ and record it ? No matter the outcome. From this fight il see how much viable BR warden is compared to live.
(AGAIN) I dont question your skills. I just want to see ANY blue warden (and brawler) doing this HoR boss 1 fight. Thats all. (i dont want raid fights, with all buffs and changes is clear that wrb will be able to hold agains t2 atleast. For t3 il believe when i see it)
Thanks and have a great day.

Those are some tanking traceries we need, I don’t mean cool-down on skills, but buffs to the skills themselves, like more %inc damage on desperate spear, or more group magnitude for FtFP. Things like that, other classes get traceries that buff their cool-downs.

In regards to the HoR run - our goal was boss 2 before it got nerfed, which only had a few days left and we wanted as many tries as possible (see videos of the attempts)
That’s why we skipped boss 1 with the warden. This was before we had FtFP, that was added later.

I have done boss 1 since we got FtFP and it also got nerfed. To do it easily, grab some lothlorien survival guides that give you run speed for one minute. Then just kite it like everyone else does.

In regards to raiding. All of my AD videos I had no kin. I ran a lot with friendly gear farm.

HH videos were also pugs as my kin didn’t want me to tank due to them trying to do T3

[KillAllFrep]

....

This is a 3x improvement in our healing, and will absolutely bridge the gap in the big hits.
Take 2x 1 million hits in 2 seconds. With 200k HPS you have mitigated 400k of that damage.

Which is around 22.5% (quick maths). Then if that still doesn’t save you, you have never surrender in the bank; and if you had it running before hand another one ready to go with 0 cool-down.

This is nice in theory, but mitigating one-shots or huge hits upwards of 1, 1.5m damage is not happening no matter how much HPS you have. Don't get me wrong, 200k HPS is massive and will definitely be a game-changer in damage taken over the course of a few seconds, but it won't stop the single biggest issues Wardens currently face, and it still leaves Warden behind all the other tanks that just don't need this HPS in the first place (i.e. don't need the Warden to be fighting for his life just to survive hits they survive while AFK):

Right off the bat, you're at a huge disadvantage in all defensive stats/skills compared to every other tank.

In any fight where you have phases, periods of not being able to attack, periods of not being in range or LoS etc. you are either losing or have lost your defensives and heals, and threat resets are a nightmare.

The big instant damage that "one-shots" (2-3 shots) tanks with 2mil HP is just fast, consecutive hits. You take 1.5m from the boss spike damage, then you take some other source of damage in the same second for 400k and then again from another mob/puddle/whatever 400k and you're dead. This sort of damage shouldn't require blowing NS, other tanks just won't take hits as hard and have ways to mitigate it no matter the circumstances, with minor skills like To Arms or just passive mits that are always there, even if they just got revived 5 seconds ago.

NS is moot, since it has a 10-20% chance to just not work and let you immediately die anyway, and for what it is, I'd gladly can it and take something like Heart/Fortitude or Last Stand, all of which have shorter cooldowns and way more versatility in their use, and 1.5 to 2x the healing output potential.

I don't doubt these changes are an excellent step in the right direction for Warden, but the real question is: Are you going to be able to get to level-cap, fresh geared with your purple armour alongside Guardians and Brawlers (if Cappies survive this update, them too) and be competitive in tiered 6 and 12 man content? I think the answer is probably no, not yet.

[Eadondryt]

In any fight where you have phases, periods of not being able to attack, periods of not being in range or LoS etc. you are either losing or have lost your defensives and heals, and threat resets are a nightmare.

Lets see aboout that:
Shield Tactics: No target required
Shield Mastery: No Target required
Readied Blade: No Target required
Shield UP: No Target required
Dance of War: No Target Required
Conviction: No Target Required

Heals:
Periods of not being in range: did you forget that assailment exists? If I am that far away from what I am tanking, then it isn't going to be hitting me either.
LoS is valid, but again if I have no LOS to the boss, it isn't hitting me either.


Threat resets: This is an open book for all tanks with the upcoming threat/mastery changes. Live I never struggled for threat with just two forced taunts, and now we have an additional one. This will need testing somewhere the threat resets are regular. Any suggestions?

The big instant damage that "one-shots" (2-3 shots) tanks with 2mil HP is just fast, consecutive hits. You take 1.5m from the boss spike damage, then you take some other source of damage in the same second for 400k and then again from another mob/puddle/whatever 400k and you're dead. This sort of damage shouldn't require blowing NS, other tanks just won't take hits as hard and have ways to mitigate it no matter the circumstances, with minor skills like To Arms or just passive mits that are always there, even if they just got revived 5 seconds ago.

No tanks are surviving those sort of hits without using a cooldown. Double fangs from Hrimill will wipe ANY tank without a cooldown up at that time.

If that scenario is not supposed to proc a Never Surrender, then why do we even have the skill? Just to turn it on and never use it?
It's there to protect you from exactly that sort of burst damage, but we can agree to disagree on that point.

I don't know where you got the 10-20% chance for NS not to work from. It is not my experience at all, from tanking consistently on my warden for the past few years. Yes it was an issue in Remmo/AD/FoKD when it was not a death save (when it was supposed to be). But that has long since been fixed.

With regards to your 6/12 man comment. I would say that is dependant upon the skill of the warden. For an average warden, no. For a skilled warden, yes. It's an advanced class, so of course simpler tanks will have an easier time of it.
Provided they have worked on their virtues and paid attention to their gear/stats when getting towards cap, I don't think they would have a problem getting T1/T2 done and getting geared up for higher tiers.

This is nice in theory, but mitigating one-shots or huge hits upwards of 1, 1.5m damage is not happening no matter how much HPS you have. Don't get me wrong, 200k HPS is massive and will definitely be a game-changer in damage taken over the course of a few seconds, but it won't stop the single biggest issues Wardens currently face, and it still leaves Warden behind all the other tanks that just don't need this HPS in the first place (i.e. don't need the Warden to be fighting for his life just to survive hits they survive while AFK):

Here is the thing, LIVE wardens struggle with big hits because of the following reasons:
1. They do not have any damage mitigations beyond maxing their stats and a few gambits. Plus DC. All in its around 70%. Captains actually have lower mits than a warden, but because of their other damage reduction skills from to arms they end up taking far less damage.
2. HPS on live is about 60k, which is not enough to bridge the gulf in damage wardens take compared to other tanks. You are correct.

You are also correct to say that HPS alone won't save a warden. But when you combine this massive HPS plus the new sources of damage reduction:
1. 12% from Shields UP/Readied Blade
2. x% (probably 6) from completing stacks of AT after you have max stacks (10s)
3. 12% from cashing out a max stack AT for a cooldown
4. 27.5% reduction from FtFP at max stacks.

That adds up to 45.5-57.5% damage reduction when you REALLY need it.
If FtFP has been used (20s duration, 30-45seconds to rebuild all your stacks back - so a 10-15s window of vulnerability) it is still a 24% damage reduction when using the next cooldown (Restorative Shield Work) which will also increase your HPS by minimum 200k per second when active. (Assuming a 2 million morale pool)

That combined with the HPS will (in my opinion) be enough to weather those periods of intense damage.

Oh I also forgot suppression for another 5%, but that isn't blue exclusive.

[Krissy]

I missed the last BR update so can someone tell me the following please?

What battle prep did you do?
What rotation in battle did you use?
Was it possible to keep all buff gambits up/debuffs on the target or did you need to pick and choose what was needed? (AT required ones not included obviously).

Cheers for the info?

[Glohir]

There is the daily warden experience.


I didnt hide the names because this post is not to name/shame someone. Just to show that even in fresh raid, with no warden in it, and in outdated t2 casual run, no one need us, because even half naked 3 keys spamming hunter do better. (nothing against hunters)
Same with yellow, and even worse if you are blue, then you dont even get respond. PPl think you moke them...

Be sure this change / even if i dont see it changing, prove me wrong

Let's be brutally honest here. This is not a warden problem. As a fellow warden player I've never had any problems joining as warden dps in any run.

[Eadondryt]

I missed the last BR update so can someone tell me the following please?

What battle prep did you do?
What rotation in battle did you use?
Was it possible to keep all buff gambits up/debuffs on the target or did you need to pick and choose what was needed? (AT required ones not included obviously).

Cheers for the info?

Do you mean for tanking or DPS?

[Krissy]

Do you mean for tanking or DPS?

Tanking please

[Eadondryt]

Tanking please

Battle prep:

Shield tactics and mastery (5% mits)
Readied blade and shields up (-12% inc damage)
Dance of war and conviction (3% mits and ratings and heal)

Then whatever skill you want to pull with (Resounding)

Rotation: Make sure you get suppression on (war-cry)
Self heals
Morale taps
Re-apply the gambits from the battle prep as they fall off.

Repeat.

[Plidak]

Let's be brutally honest here. This is not a warden problem. As a fellow warden player I've never had any problems joining as warden dps in any run.

Yea any t1 or premade / friend RL/ run and im in.
Cant say the same for t2 /3 pugs.
And is a general wrd problem. Just to be "brutally honest"
Or maybe we play diferent games.
(will start taking screens for higher tier runs i do and post then, and you will show me where the wardens are)

Or na. To make it more simple / YOU show me screen in LF where warden is needed. Il bombard you with LF Hunter/Champ ones.

[LagunaD2]

Going back to the thread I started last August about the state of the Warden (and really extending all the way back to when the class was introduced) there's been an ongoing request to get more direct skills in your kit, especially for tanking. At the same time, many folks feel that having a lot of direct skills conflicts with the core idea of the class: a proactive combo class, thinking ahead and using a small number of basic builders to create a complex sequence of outputs. The gambit chain and Advanced Technique were created to bridge the gap to a degree, requiring you to ramp up with gambit sequences and giving you the ability to 'spend' that mechanical gameplay energy on an instant skill.

While it's too late for this update, I always thought a diminishing returns system on particularly powerful gambits would address this.

Meaning: each time you use such a gambit you get a stacking debuff lasting X seconds that makes it Y% less effective if used again before the debuff falls off.

None of the gambits we have now are powerful enough to need this, but it could be a way to add gambits that are too good to be indefinitely spammable.

As I posted above, I think it would be more in line with the class philosophy if chains were actually defined patterns (straight or three-of-a-kind). For those who complain it's too complicated, you would get an AT for every three (properly sequenced) gambit chains instead of four (randomly sequenced). So it represents a skill element and a net gain of AT generation when played properly.