U35 Return to Carn Dum - Mastery & Damage Buff Update

[Vastin]

Mastery and Damage Mod Changes

Hello folks! Vastin here, and we've been working on some fairly large updates to the general game mechanics in the background over the past few months. We'll start with the more straightforward one, which is a change to how Mastery and Damage Modifiers are calcualted in LOTRO.

For a long time now those of you who pay close attention to how effects work, or who have discussed the matter in forums have no doubt noticed that a lot of our damage effects seem rather weaker than the numbers suggest. This comes back to two main issues - how we calculate damage bonuses, and the player Mastery stat.

We have changed how Mastery is treated in these calculations as follows - my apologies, this next bit is necessarily rather math-y, but TL;DR all your damage buffs should behave much more like the numbers suggest they should.

There are three major changes in particular:

1) Mastery is now calculated as a separate multiplier from the rest of your damage mods!
- It used to be that mastery was added to the rest of your additive mods before it applied as a multiplier on your damage, because Mastery is usually quite large (+100-200% for many characters), this had the effect of watering down most other damage mods very badly.
- For a character with +150% mastery, a +10% damage mod would only appear to increase damage by 4%. Now the same mods will increase damage by a value much closer to 10%.
- Note that traits and effects that directly modded specific skills (SkillMods) are already treated as a separate multiplier so those weren't affected.

- Old Version: Damage = BaseDamage * SkillMods * ( 1 + Mastery% + Mod% + Mod% + Mod% ... )

- New Version: Damage = BaseDamage * SkillMods * (1 + Mastery% ) * (1 + Mod% + Mod% + Mod% ... )

2) Some mods directly multiplied damage rather than being treated additively. These were often considered 'the good buffs' previously, as they wouldn't be watered down by mastery or mob mods. These were often not correctly indicated in the UI and players could only determine their nature through trial and error. We've changed the tooltips to make such damage mods clearly distinct.

- Additive damage mods are still indicated as "+10% Melee Damage" or similar.

- Multiplicative damage mods are now indicated as "x1.1 Melee Damage" or similar.

- EG: Damage = BaseDamage * SkillMults * (1 + Mastery% ) * (1 + AddMod% + AddMod% + AddMod% ... ) * MultMod * MultMod* ...

- In general we've tried to standardize these tooltips to make them clearer. In practice with Mastery now treated as its own modifier, the difference between additive and multiplicative buffs is going to be a good bit smaller than it used to be so these won't matter quite as much.

3) Multiplicative and Additive damage de/buffs did not have a guaranteed Order of Operations. This could lead to irregular results if multiple de/buffs of both types were present on an entity. The order of operations should no longer be relevant in damage calculations, as all additive buffs occur in a single segment of the calculation.

This bug was rather maddening as it could play out differently for any possible combination of de/buffs. In most cases it doesn't come up, but in raids where a great many de/buffs are present it could mess the math up substantially, and in ways we could never really catch, predict, or fix.



Damage Mod Rescaling

Now for the catch - there's always a catch, isn't there? - but it a minor one for you folks.

These calculation changes have required us to go through the game and review pretty much all the player damage mods. Most of them are substantially more effective when calculated this way, so we've reduced the base magnitude of most of them to avoid upsetting the current game balance too significantly.

For a given value, players can expect a given buff % to feel x2 to x3 times as strong as they were before depending on their Mastery. Accordingly we've reduced the magnitude of most of them by a lesser factor. The final result should be that virtually all of these buffs should feel MORE effective than they were before - just not x3 as effective. The value listed on the buff should be much more commensurate with its actual game effect which is the main purpose of all this.

Below is a list of most of the damage modifiers in the game that have been altered as a result of this change. To keep the notes readable, all modifiers below can be assumed to apply to the Outgoing Damage mod of each effect, or as a modifier to such an effect. For effects with several tiers, generally only the change to the highest/final tier has been listed.

Beorning
- Bear Form Damage Tracery [+35% ->+20%]
- Man Form Damage Tracery [+35% ->+20%]
- Encouraging Strike (t3) [+15% -> +10% ]
- Vicious Rage (t3) [+15% -> +10%]
- Raining Blows (t3) [+15% -> +10%]
- Aggressive Posture [+10% -> +5%]

Brawler
- Class Spec: Maelstrom [+5% -> +3%]
- Pip Damage Bonus [+3%/pip -> +2%/pip]
- Get Serious [+25% -> +15%]
- Get Serious Tracery [+10% -> +5%]
- Feint [+20% -> +10%]
- The Best Defense [+30%->+20%]
- Strike As One (solo) [+25% -> +15%]
- Strike As One (group) [+10% -> +5%]
- Strike As One Trait Bonus [+10% -> +3%]
- Well Fed Trait Bonus [+15% -> +7.5%]
- Innate Strength: Quickness [+25% -> +10%]
- Innate Strength: Damage Tracery [+10% -> +5%]
- Joy of Battle Damage [+2%/stack -> +1%/stack]
- Item Set Taunt Damage [+20% -> +10%]

Burglar
- All In [+80% -> 50%]
- All In Tracery Bonus [+40% -> +15%]
- Improved Feint Stealth Damage [+25 -> +15%]
- Trait: Sneak Attack [+100% -> +40%]

Champion
- Controlled Burn [+15% -> 10%]
- Controlled Burn Set Bonus [+7.5% -> 5% ]
- Fervour [+50 -> +20%]
- Invincible [+45% -> +32%]
- Controlled Fury [15% -> 10%]
- Unstable [30% -> 15%]
- Champion's Duel [30% -> 15%]
- Weapon Master Dual Wield [6% -> 5%]
- Exchange of Blows Melee Dmg Bonus Tracery [+35% -> +20%]

Guardian
- Break Ranks [x1.4 -> +30%] (note operator change)
- Protection By The Sword [+5% -> +3%]

Hunter
- Trait: Shoot to Kill [+10% -> +5%]
- Burn Hot Tracery Bonus [35% -> 15%]

Loremaster
- Pets
- Distraction [x0.5 -> x0.8] (This is a real rebalancing of the effect - it was much too overpowered. Sorry about that.)
- Fellowship Friend - Lynx [+5% -> +3%]
- Fellowship Friend - Bog-Guardian [+5% -> +3%]

Minstrel
- War-Speech [+5% -> +3%]
- Cry of the Chorus [+12% -> +8%]
- Emboldening Finish [+25% -> +15%]
- Anthem Tactical Damage [+10% -> +3%]
- Anthem Melee/Ranged Damage [+5% -> +3%]
- Anthem Damage Buff Tracery [+2% -> x50%] (note sign change, these traceries now modify the buff by that % - this was to avoid very small fractional modifiers)
- Set Item Anthem Damage Buff [+3% -> x66%]

Runekeeper
- No changes

Warden
- Trait: Ranged Damage [+25% -> +10%]

High Elf
- Wrath of the Firstborne [+5% -> +3%]


Monsters & Instances

Most of these are player debuffs, which are likewise much stronger now that they aren't competing against Mastery. They've been reduced, but you can still expect to feel them more.

- General
- "Poisoned Weakness" [-35% -> -20%]
- Wight "Weakness" [25% -> -20%]
- Shade "Weakened Heart" [-40% -> -25%]
- Uruk "Hampering Shot" [-33% -> -25%]
- Drake "Freezing Metal" [-60% -> -40%]
- Nameless "Bane of the Blade-bearers and Fire-wielders" [-30% -> -20%]
- Elk "Unsteady Hands" [-25% -> -15%]
- Uruk "Fear Blade" [-50% -> -30%]
- Mazog "Sapped Strength" [-100% -> -50%]
- Garzog "Blade of Terror" [-50% -> -35%]
- Lost Temple "Weakness" [-50% -> -35%]
- World Eater [-90% -> -50%]

- Skirmishes
- Fear Contagion [-100% -> -50%]

- Scuttledells 3 man
- Fear of the Dead [-50% -> -35%]

- Weather Top
- Oppressive Darkess [-100% -> -50%]

Items
- Special Trail Food [+5% -> +3%]
- Special Trail Food (130) [+2.5% -> +2%]
- Lorian Sharpening Stones - Keen Blade [+10% -> +5%]
- Ill Omens - Portents of Strength [+39% -> +20%] (and so on, all by about 1/2)

- Creep Trail Food [+5% -> +3%]
- Aggressive Essence [+5% -> +3%]
- Fellowship Aggressor Essence [+7.5% -> +4%]

- Captain Standards
- Standards of War Melee Bonus [+5% -> +3%]


Item Sets
- Sets granting Melee/Ranged/Tactial Damage [+10% -> +5%]


PvMP
- General
- Fragment of Mordírith's Crown - [+8% -> +5%]
- Battlefield Promotion 15 [+15% -> +7.5%]
- Corruption: Damage [+25% -> +12.5%]
- Rank: Damage [+20% -> +10%]

Defiler
- Boon of the Blackened Heart [+15% -> +7.5%]
- Invigourated [+30% -> +15%]

Warleader
- Trait: Damage Boost [+25% -> +12.5%]
- Terror [-10% -> -5%]
- Command [+25% -> +12.5%]

Stalker
- Shadow [+15% -> +7.5%]
- Rallying Howl [+25% -> 12%]
- Shadow Howler [+15% -> +7.5%]

Troll
- Rampage [+300% -> x3.0] (note sign change)


To wrap up, this update should be a pretty good quality of life change for players, as the damage buff and debuff effects in the game should all behave a lot more as you'd expect, and we've likely eliminated some odd edge case bugs from the game to boot. While the buff numbers are all tweaked downwards, actual player DPS should go up in almost every case.

Note that this change does not yet extend to defensive buffs or other stats and calculations - its just damage for now. We wanted to address this first as it is one of the most common forms of buff in the game, and Mastery has had that annoying 'watering down' effect for a very long time, which is less of an issue with defensive de/buffs.

In any case, we hope you enjoy the update! These changes are fairly large scale, so its entirely possible that we will find it necessary to make a few more tweaks before they go fully live, but we're pretty sure they'll be a significant positive change for the game overall.

Sincerely,

Vastin

[Vilan]

Loremaster
- Pets
- Distraction [x0.5 -> x0.8] (This is a real rebalancing of the effect - it was much too overpowered. Sorry about that.)
- Fellowship Friend - Lynx [+5% -> +3%]
- Fellowship Friend - Bog-Guardian [+5% -> +3%]

No mention of what exactly you're doing to pets. Are you making pet damage actually significant at higher levels? That would be appreciated since our raven is getting shafted.

[Elmagor]

A lot of math here, with short conclusion, if we getting buff or nerf? Looks more like nerf. I wonder why they decide to nerf all dps comparing with such tiny amount of kins who complete race to dps tiers (T4-T5) in raids?

Also, how much info hardcore raid members get from devs when they rush to complete current raids before that nerf?

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

A lot of math here, with short conclusion, if we getting buff or nerf? Looks more like nerf. I wonder why they decide to nerf all dps comparing with such tiny amount of kins who complete race to dps tiers (T4-T5) in raids?

Also, how much info hardcore raid members get from devs when they rush to complete current raids before that nerf?

This right here is astounding.

How someone could think this is somehow a nerf....

how is it possible for a human being in the modern world with access to the internet to be able to unironically say this.

the year is 2023. it is the current year.

[Saruman_Of_Numbers]

Command +25% -> -12.5%?


wot.

[wersxtwe]

A lot of math here, with short conclusion, if we getting buff or nerf? Looks more like nerf. I wonder why they decide to nerf all dps comparing with such tiny amount of kins who complete race to dps tiers (T4-T5) in raids?

Also, how much info hardcore raid members get from devs when they rush to complete current raids before that nerf?

I get that you were probably overwhelmed with information, but they've made it clear that this is a buff. In short, the amounts have been reduced because the effectiveness was increased. For instance, Exchange of Blows Melee Damage on a 200% mastery Champ would previously additively stack, for +35% damage, totaling 235%. With the changes, it now multiplies it by 20%, which means 240% damage on the same champ. if they hadn't changed the value, it would have been a 270% damage.

Raiders will be seeing an overall buff to DPS.

[Elmagor]

I get that you were probably overwhelmed with information, but they've made it clear that this is a buff. In short, the amounts have been reduced because the effectiveness was increased. For instance, Exchange of Blows Melee Damage on a 200% mastery Champ would previously additively stack, for +35% damage, totaling 235%. With the changes, it now multiplies it by 20%, which means 240% damage on the same champ. if they hadn't changed the value, it would have been a 270% damage.

Raiders will be seeing an overall buff to DPS.

Yes I read that. But we need to test it to see with our own eyes. Main problem what they layout too much math with overwhelming info. Maybe they need put some sentence about buff with bold letters

[Baritone]

Is this the theory Matt Damon proved on the chalkboard in Good Will Hunting?

[yloollo]

We have had some recent essences with healing bonusses, and plenty of other healing bonusses too. So I've got to ask if these mastery buffs apply to healing too and not just damage.

[DoRonRon]

Is this the theory Matt Damon proved on the chalkboard in Good Will Hunting?

Made me lol

[DoRonRon]

We have had some recent essences with healing bonusses, and plenty of other healing bonusses too. So I've got to ask if these mastery buffs apply to healing too and not just damage.

A future pass for the healing was mentioned.

[OnnMacMahal]

Command +25% -> -12.5%?

This is just a notes issue. I've corrected the sign in the original post. If you find your Command Post is actually inhibiting your creep allies, that's a bug.

[BotLike]

Guardian
- Break Ranks [x1.4 -> +30%] (note operator change)

Curious what that means , seems a bit weird.

[Bothketbog]

Curious what that means , seems a bit weird.

Exchanging a multiplication sign for a plus (percentage) sign. Big difference.

[Skoch]

Proper under-the-hood math transparency! OMG YES VASTIN YESSS! This is the way to go, Devs, this is definitely awesomesauce! +9000 reputation!

Soooo much of the game tooltips/ui need to be streamlined/clarified - dont stop here plz!

[Crissaegrim]

Minstrel...

- Anthem Tactical Damage [+10% -> +3%]
- Anthem Melee/Ranged Damage [+5% -> +3%]
- Anthem Damage Buff Tracery [+2% -> x50%] (note sign change, these traceries now modify the buff by that % - this was to avoid very small fractional modifiers)
...

Sooo... assuming you have the Anthem Damage Buff Tracery, it would make your Anthem Tactical Damage be +7.5% and your Anthem Melee/Ranged Damage be +4.5%?

[auximenes]

A lot of math here, with short conclusion, if we getting buff or nerf? Looks more like nerf.
...
Maybe they need put some sentence about buff with bold letters

*not sure if serious face*

TL;DR all your damage buffs should behave much more like the numbers suggest they should.
...
To wrap up, this update should be a pretty good quality of life change for players, as the damage buff and debuff effects in the game should all behave a lot more as you'd expect, and we've likely eliminated some odd edge case bugs from the game to boot. While the buff numbers are all tweaked downwards, actual player DPS should go up in almost every case.

Proper under-the-hood math transparency! OMG YES VASTIN YESSS! This is the way to go, Devs, this is definitely awesomesauce! +9000 reputation!Soooo much of the game tooltips/ui need to be streamlined/clarified - dont stop here plz!

/signed

[Arabani]

Do I read it right and racials will actually once again gives us the proper 5%?

[theultimatekyle]

Do I read it right and racials will actually once again gives us the proper 5%?

Racial weapon bonuses are not, and will not, be mastery. They are bonuses to your weapon damage. These changes won't effect Racial damage.

[Flamebeard]

Do I read it right and racials will actually once again gives us the proper 5%?

Racial weapon bonuses are not, and will not, be mastery. They are bonuses to your weapon damage. These changes won't effect Racial damage.

These are damage calculations so of course every damage mod will be a part of the equation.

[Elementil]

Do I read it right and racials will actually once again gives us the proper 5%?

"The proper 5%" in itself is quite vague.
I assume you mean "will it be a 5% multiplier".
Well... according to the post you should be able to tell from the tooltip. If it says +5%, it would be part of the +Mod% bracket (bigger impact than before but not a full multiplier on its own). If it says x1,05, it would in fact be a multiplier.

But my best guess is that it's still going to be +5% since making it a more multiplier would basically require you to play certain classes as a certain race, which can't be their goal.

[Arabani]

"The proper 5%" in itself is quite vague.
I assume you mean "will it be a 5% multiplier".

No. Right now such bonuses add less then 1% for people with 200 mastery and other specific bonuses, in some cases the increase is around 0.4%. Separating Mastery from the rest of variables will push racials back to 5ish % I assume.

[Jetar]

- Old Version: Damage = BaseDamage * SkillMods * ( 1 + Mastery% + Mod% + Mod% + Mod% ... )

- New Version: Damage = BaseDamage * SkillMods * (1 + Mastery% ) * (1 + Mod% + Mod% + Mod% ... )

Exchange of Blows Melee Damage on a 200% mastery Champ would previously additively stack, for +35% damage, totaling 235%. With the changes, it now multiplies it by 20%, which means 240% damage on the same champ. if they hadn't changed the value, it would have been a 270% damage.

BaseDamage = 10_000
SkillMods = 1 (for instance)
Mastery = 200%/100% = 2
Mod1 = 35%/100% = 0.35 (like in champ example)
Old version Damage = 10_000 * 1 * (1 + 2 + 0.35) = 33_500 = +235%
New Mod1 = 20%/100% = 0.20
New version Damage = 10_000 * 1 * (1 + 2) * (1 + 0.20) = 32_500 = +225%

Am I right or I miss something?

UPD:

Well, there's a cappers nerf, I suppose. Because:

if Mastery = 150%/100% = 1.5

then

Old version Damage = 10_000 * 1 * (1 + 1.5 + 0.35) = 28_500 = +185%
New version Damage = 10_000 * 1 * (1 + 1.5) * (1 + 0.20) = 30_000 = +200%

[mkcraft27]

BaseDamage = 10_000
SkillMods = 1 (for instance)
Mastery = 200%/100% = 2
Mod1 = 35%/100% = 0.35 (like in champ example)
Old version Damage = 10_000 * 1 * (1 + 2 + 0.35) = 33_500 = +235%
New Mod1 = 20%/100% = 0.20
New version Damage = 10_000 * 1 * (1 + 2) * (1 + 0.20) = 32_500 = +225%

Am I right or I miss something?

I think your math is off for the new version.

it should 36_000 damage meaning an overall buff

(1 + 2) * (1 + 0.20) --> 3*1.2 --> 3.6

10+000*1*3 --> 36_000

[Elementil]

I get that you were probably overwhelmed with information, but they've made it clear that this is a buff. In short, the amounts have been reduced because the effectiveness was increased. For instance, Exchange of Blows Melee Damage on a 200% mastery Champ would previously additively stack, for +35% damage, totaling 235%. With the changes, it now multiplies it by 20%, which means 240% damage on the same champ. if they hadn't changed the value, it would have been a 270% damage.

Raiders will be seeing an overall buff to DPS.

Your math is a bit off.
With the 20% multiplier it's actually equivalent to 260% in the old system.
You calculated 1 + 2 * (1 + 0.2) = 3.4 instead of (1 + 2) * (1 + 0.2) = 3.6

So it's quite a substantial buff.