So the up coming new class is Corsair?

[TesalionLortus]

The same way Beornings and High Elves correspond? Ultimately its a game, so there doesn't have to a firm lore reason for doing quests, it makes no sense that we are both saving the world and delivering pies at the same time anyway. "Bandits are attacking us but here, deliver this food" Like I said, a class is a skillset and no matter what skillset, you'd need practice to get to a point where you'd be strong enough.

Beorning - good folk. High Elves - good guys. Decent intros with good enough reasons justifying their presence.

Corsair - pirates, slavers, plunderers. It's not just some "skill set" but a way of life. Are you calling yourself a pirate but you are not sailing around seas plundering ships? Of course not, you do. It's not just some "lore thing" (I don't even care about these hobbit loremasters as much) it's outright common sense. Corsair is morally on a complete opposite side of the moral spectrum. They didn't give us a good "orc" or a "Black Numenorean" skillset to play either. They gave us an escaped resistant to evil dwarven slave out of Mordor.

If there is a Corsair class named as Corsair and framed as actual "good Corsair" who is still a Corsair and there isn't any firm reason for doing quests... OK, then I want my good orc, uruk, or Angmarim sorcerer to play as. Why not? There doesn't need to be any good reason for doing quests apparently

[JFDCamara]

Beorning - good folk. High Elves - good guys. Decent intros with good enough reasons justifying their presence.

Corsair - pirates, slavers, plunderers. It's not just some "skill set" but a way of life. Are you calling yourself a pirate but you are not sailing around seas plundering ships? Of course not, you do. It's not just some "lore thing" (I don't even care about these hobbit loremasters as much) it's outright common sense. Corsair is morally on a complete opposite side of the moral spectrum. They didn't give us a good "orc" or a "Black Numenorean" skillset to play either. They gave us an escaped resistant to evil dwarven slave out of Mordor.

If there is a Corsair class named as Corsair and framed as actual "good Corsair" who is still a Corsair and there isn't any firm reason for doing quests... OK, then I want my good orc, uruk, or Angmarim sorcerer to play as. Why not? There doesn't need to be any good reason for doing quests apparently

Burglars also have a "dubious" lifestyle but they can be good obviously.
Corsairs are pirates that work for a state instead of working for themselves. In history this happened too and they can be good from a certain point of view, if you're a corsair working for Gondor and raiding the Sauron aligned forces that means you're good, despite doing it in a pirate way - burglars can do the same. And the line between a navy of a country and its corsair forces only depends on perspective. States prefer to use a "navy" and be honourable but when the situation arises most had no problem using corsairs if it was better for them (like in uneven forces).

[Radhruin_EU]

Burglars also have a "dubious" lifestyle but they can be good obviously.
Corsairs are pirates that work for a state instead of working for themselves. In history this happened too and they can be good from a certain point of view, if you're a corsair working for Gondor and raiding the Sauron aligned forces that means you're good, despite doing it in a pirate way - burglars can do the same. And the line between a navy of a country and its corsair forces only depends on perspective. States prefer to use a "navy" and be honourable but when the situation arises most had no problem using corsairs if it was better for them (like in uneven forces).

It's more than just 'dubious', because the Corsairs were slave-takers. End of. They're not dashing privateers from the Age of Sail, they're working for (in this case) a thoroughly corrupted regime and that puts them way over on the wrong side of the tracks as far as LOTR's moral divide goes.

[Fealhach]

Too much negative associated with Corsair (It's a Pirate!).
Mariner fits in with Tolkien but then people will always be asking where you have parked the Ship and why you are so far from the sea.
Venturer would be a good name but it's only mentioned in Unfinished Tales.
Swashbuckler sounds dashing and daring without seeming malicious or cruel.

If it is a seafaring class it will probably only really fit the races of Men and Elves anyway. Dwarves and Hobbits coming up short yet again.

Cheers

[Radhruin_EU]

Too much negative associated with Corsair (It's a Pirate!).
Mariner fits in with Tolkien but then people will always be asking where you have parked the Ship and why you are so far from the sea.
Venturer would be a good name but it's only mentioned in Unfinished Tales.
Swashbuckler sounds dashing and daring without seeming malicious or cruel.

Being a swashbuckler has nothing in particular to do with going to sea, though.

Venturer would do I think because it's a common word (not an outright reference to Numenor like 'Guild of Venturers' might be) and it goes with being a merchant adventurer and that for example is what Sinbad was in the stories about him. And we're going somewhere with that same sort of flavour, and supernatural goings-on. Seems like a fair fit, none of the unfortunate baggage that 'Corsair' has.

And yeah, seafaring would imply Men and Elves.

[Atonu]

Beorning - good folk. High Elves - good guys. Decent intros with good enough reasons justifying their presence.

Corsair - pirates, slavers, plunderers. It's not just some "skill set" but a way of life. Are you calling yourself a pirate but you are not sailing around seas plundering ships? Of course not, you do. It's not just some "lore thing" (I don't even care about these hobbit loremasters as much) it's outright common sense. Corsair is morally on a complete opposite side of the moral spectrum. They didn't give us a good "orc" or a "Black Numenorean" skillset to play either. They gave us an escaped resistant to evil dwarven slave out of Mordor.

If there is a Corsair class named as Corsair and framed as actual "good Corsair" who is still a Corsair and there isn't any firm reason for doing quests... OK, then I want my good orc, uruk, or Angmarim sorcerer to play as. Why not? There doesn't need to be any good reason for doing quests apparently

But as I said before, classes aren't jobs, they are skillsets. Unless you're saying its physically impossible that a single corsair would decide "Actually, helping people is better than piracy and maybe ill take adoration and fame over the uncertainness of piracy"? You have to remember that all the quests and story happen in a bubble, its just you. The fact there are other people all playing the same class and doing the same thing is a product of the game, not the lore. Because if you want t apply your logic to the game as a whole, then it makes no sense for anyone to be anything other than human guardians, captains, champions and hunters.

Edit: Beorning are at best neutral. Like hobbits and, to a lesser extent, dwarves they care little for what happens outside of their borders and their hatred of goblins and warg (which is the motivation for them engaging with the free people at all) is a product of crimes against them, completely disconnected from the current state of affairs. They choose to help because it suites their own purposes and then the player gets caught up in the grand adventure, like every other race.

[Flaxie]

It's more than just 'dubious', because the Corsairs were slave-takers. End of. They're not dashing privateers from the Age of Sail, they're working for (in this case) a thoroughly corrupted regime and that puts them way over on the wrong side of the tracks as far as LOTR's moral divide goes.

Not all of them. Or have you never quested through Gondor?

[paintpixie]

But as I said before, classes aren't jobs, they are skillsets.

...that a single corsair would decide "Actually, helping people is better than piracy and maybe ill take adoration and fame over the uncertainness of piracy"?...

Then they would cease to be "corsairs". They can't run around doing "good stealing", "good plundering", and "good miscellaneous pirate things". Their skillset would change with their decision.

I don't actually care what they are called, to be perfectly honest. But corsair is basically a synonym for pirate, and I don't think those "skillsets" are something positive. I think it would be better to call them something more like "mariner", which has a better connotation, but it's their business, not mine. They've screwed with the lore so much, that honestly I don't know why it even surprises people at this point. (Yes, I'm still kinda weird about rune keepers...even though I have an alt rune keeper, myself. : P)

[Atonu]

Then they would cease to be "corsairs". They can't run around doing "good stealing", "good plundering", and "good miscellaneous pirate things". Their skillset would change with their decision.

I don't actually care what they are called, to be perfectly honest. But corsair is basically a synonym for pirate, and I don't think those "skillsets" are something positive. I think it would be better to call them something more like "mariner", which has a better connotation, but it's their business, not mine. They've screwed with the lore so much, that honestly I don't know why it even surprises people at this point. (Yes, I'm still kinda weird about rune keepers...even though I have an alt rune keeper, myself. : P)

I mean at least runekeepers make a little more sense than minstrels XD So all burglars are evil? I do think maybe Duelist would be a better name for them, not so much because I don't think its plausible for there to be one good corsair but rather because I think its a bad idea to have a class with the same name as a faction, even if they came up with some amazing lore reason that a corsair decides to switch sides, its still likely to cause confusion. As you said, if a corsair switched sides, they'd still have the same skills, same fighting styles ect but its unlikely they'd still be called corsairs, if for no other reason than they'd be fighting against them. Everyone they met they'd have to be like "I'm a corsair, but not like those corsairs"

I mean, one reasonable explanation is that you weren't a willing corsair in the first place. Maybe in order to fuel the fleet they started just forcing slaves onto the ships to work and it was either that or death, so at the first opportunity you jump ship. Or maybe your ship is sunk and you're nursed back to health. I don't know, in terms of an adventure hook there are plenty of options.

[Radhruin_EU]

But as I said before, classes aren't jobs, they are skillsets. Unless you're saying its physically impossible that a single corsair would decide "Actually, helping people is better than piracy and maybe ill take adoration and fame over the uncertainness of piracy"? You have to remember that all the quests and story happen in a bubble, its just you. The fact there are other people all playing the same class and doing the same thing is a product of the game, not the lore. Because if you want t apply your logic to the game as a whole, then it makes no sense for anyone to be anything other than human guardians, captains, champions and hunters.

By that same token a single necromancer might decide "Actually, helping people is better than all this death, fear, darkness and decay and other such foully unnatural magicks I've been employing in the service of my lord Sauron, maybe I'll take adoration and fame over the uncertainty of sorcery". That wouldn't work because they'd have already done awful things and as for Corsairs they're not just pirates, but raiders who take slaves. As a result they wouldn't fit the game's rationale (e.g. they'd absolutely not be the sort of person that major characters like Aragorn, Gandalf or Galadriel would ever trust) at all, regardless of whether you try to pretend there's only one of them. That argument of yours is so woolly that you could even apply it to Orcs

[Atonu]

By that same token a single necromancer might decide "Actually, helping people is better than all this death, fear, darkness and decay and other such foully unnatural magicks I've been employing in the service of my lord Sauron, maybe I'll take adoration and fame over the uncertainty of sorcery". That wouldn't work because they'd have already done awful things and as for Corsairs they're not just pirates, but raiders who take slaves. As a result they wouldn't fit the game's rationale (e.g. they'd absolutely not be the sort of person that major characters like Aragorn, Gandalf or Galadriel would ever trust) at all, regardless of whether you try to pretend there's only one of them. That argument of yours is so woolly that you could even apply it to Orcs

Yea, because its not like the major characters ever saw something in someone that nobody else did.. right? Also do you think all corsairs wear name badges and a sign saying "Hide your children, i'm a corsair"? An orc is obviously an orc, a necromancer will be outed as soon as they start spewing bodies all over the place. Ultimately lotro has already set the groundwork for having corsairs that arent "100% evil no excuses." Also presumably the corsair would start at level 1, so an inexperienced corsair? You're going on the assumption we'll be playng a hardened veteran of a dozen raids. Maybe we're just a new corsair on their first raid that gets cold feet.

[JFDCamara]

It's more than just 'dubious', because the Corsairs were slave-takers. End of. They're not dashing privateers from the Age of Sail, they're working for (in this case) a thoroughly corrupted regime and that puts them way over on the wrong side of the tracks as far as LOTR's moral divide goes.

Then why are burglars good? They steal (a bad thing) and kill from the shadows (a bad thing).
The definition of corsair has nothind to do with slave-taking, just because some did doesn't mean they all did. Corsair is plundering other ships and/or coasts while being secretly associated with a state. A bunch of uncharacterised men from Gondor in a ship plundering orc bases are corsairs - is this activity "bad"?
They are men which means they have good in them, what about a corsair that repented and is now using his/her skills for good? They are basically burglars with ships.

[Radhruin_EU]

Not all of them. Or have you never quested through Gondor?

Err... how did Jajax become a Corsair captain to begin with if not through having been in service to the bad guys and having done awful things simply through being a Corsair? Just because he turns on them because he thinks they've gone too far doesn't make him a saint.

[Radhruin_EU]

The definition of corsair has nothind to do with slave-taking

Actually if you know some history it does. Not only because of what happened to the crews of ships that were captured by the Barbary Corsairs (sold into slavery) but also because the Corsairs made a habit of raiding coastal settlements here, there and everywhere (even as far away as Iceland at one point!) to capture yet more people to sell into slavery. The 'plunder' was people in particular because people were worth money to them. And it was really, really bad for a long time, in some places whole settlements had to be abandoned because it was too dangerous to live there.

[Atonu]

Actually if you know some history it does. Not only because of what happened to the crews of ships that were captured by the Barbary Corsairs (sold into slavery) but also because the Corsairs made a habit of raiding coastal settlements here, there and everywhere (even as far away as Iceland at one point!) to capture yet more people to sell into slavery. The 'plunder' was people in particular because people were worth money to them. And it was really, really bad for a long time, in some places whole settlements had to be abandoned because it was too dangerous to live there.

I'm not sure Umbar quite made it to Iceland.

[Oldwiley]

Ah the moral ambiguity of good vs evil. One mans freedom fighter and all that...

Tolkien never had his heroes poisoning baby wargs in Wildermore, would have made for bad press and I never felt entirely comfortable with it, fair amount of poisoning and general murderous activity going on.

My orc player has certainly displayed a lot ore honour and chivalry than many of the freeps it came across over the years.

As Rad will know i've opposed pretty much all the lore based blurring over the years, despite the fact it is as inevitable as the sea rolling in...

Just another classic lore break, I added my sig like 10 years ago, it still stands now.

That irritating goblin in mordor blurred the line of good/evil/self interest: blurry as it may be, am sure there will be plenty of corsairs in game to follow on from all the other lore breaks that have come before.

A hobbit and high elf corsair woud be even funnier, as long as its taking that pet goose onto the battlefield ofc.

[Flaxie]

Err... how did Jajax become a Corsair captain to begin with if not through having been in service to the bad guys and having done awful things simply through being a Corsair? Just because he turns on them because he thinks they've gone too far doesn't make him a saint.

What kind of acrobatics must be done to get "saint" from "(kind of) good guys"??


Of course he started out doing what he was raised to do, being loyal to the leaders of his people.
Leaders who believed they had a legitimate claim to Gondor's throne. Then he started seeing them
for what they were. At which point, with the help of whatever character you're questing on, he broke
away from them. Keep in mind, all the many player characters in the game are filling one single
slot in the plot. Every single character of every single player has the same opportunity to become
the Thane of Hytbold, a position that can be filled by only ONE person. The devs only have to
create the chance for ONE Corsair to convert.

[paintpixie]

...So all burglars are evil?

Haha. Got me there. XD
I guess my hand-wavy answer would be burglars are more petty theft/breaking in (and are directly from lore, and from a positive perspective with Bilbo) and corsairs are more evil, at least in connotation.

I mean, one reasonable explanation is that you weren't a willing corsair in the first place. Maybe in order to fuel the fleet they started just forcing slaves onto the ships to work and it was either that or death, so at the first opportunity you jump ship. Or maybe your ship is sunk and you're nursed back to health. I don't know, in terms of an adventure hook there are plenty of options.

I could totally see that as a reasonable explanation for them. At least as reasonable as other classes. They liked to base the classes off of popular characters from the books. (Do they still do that with new classes?) So my question is, who are they basing the new class off of? That might give a good idea of what flavor they're going for.

[Elmagor]

They can just add intro where Corsar forced to join fleet attacking Gondor, but go AWOL during attack and decide to help good side. Problem solved

[Fealhach]

They liked to base the classes off of popular characters from the books. (Do they still do that with new classes?) So my question is, who are they basing the new class off of? That might give a good idea of what flavor they're going for.

For Corsairs it will have to be pretty obscure, probably one of the sons of Castamir, but there's very little to go on.

On the other hand, If the class is a Mariner it will be based on Eàrendil. It will have a white bird pet called Elwing, a flying ship mount and a baby Dragon cosmetic pet called Ancalagon the Black.

Cheers

[paintpixie]

For Corsairs it will have to be pretty obscure, probably one of the sons of Castamir, but there's very little to go on.

On the other hand, If the class is a Mariner it will be based on Eàrendil. It will have a white bird pet called Elwing, a flying ship mount and a baby Dragon cosmetic pet called Ancalagon the Black.

Cheers

Haha. I was just joking with my husband this morning about summoning my new boat mount for cruising around Evendim.

In all honesty, I do hope the new class is Mariner. I think it would be really cool.

[Radhruin_EU]

I'm not sure Umbar quite made it to Iceland.

Point is, oh unhistorically inclined one, that that's what the real Corsairs were like and a corsair wasn't just any old pirate, it was a specific sort with a well-deserved reputation. And that's a reference that goes along with how the Haradrim also field scimitar-wielding light cavalry and war-elephants in battle. Not at all hard to see what Tolkien was getting at there.

What kind of acrobatics must be done to get "saint" from "(kind of) good guys"??

Of course he started out doing what he was raised to do, being loyal to the leaders of his people.
Leaders who believed they had a legitimate claim to Gondor's throne. Then he started seeing them
for what they were. At which point, with the help of whatever character you're questing on, he broke
away from them. Keep in mind, all the many player characters in the game are filling one single
slot in the plot. Every single character of every single player has the same opportunity to become
the Thane of Hytbold, a position that can be filled by only ONE person. The devs only have to
create the chance for ONE Corsair to convert.

I was being sarcastic. Point is, it doesn't matter if he decides he doesn't like working for the actually evil dudes any more, anyone who's a Corsair (and especially a captain!) would already be complicit in doing the sort of things Corsairs did and those were totally amoral, irrespective of whether their leaders were evil. So credit to any of them who turn against the evil dudes, but the Corsairs are still bad guys. They've just got standards of a sort, even if it's only not wanting to see Umbar being trashed. That doesn't make them good guys, not even sort of. So that makes them potentially interesting characters for storytelling purposes but doesn't do anything to make them good candidates to be player-characters.

[Flaxie]

Point is, oh unhistorically inclined one, that that's what the real Corsairs were like and a corsair wasn't just any old pirate, it was a specific sort with a well-deserved reputation. And that's a reference that goes along with how the Haradrim also field scimitar-wielding light cavalry and war-elephants in battle. Not at all hard to see what Tolkien was getting at there.


I was being sarcastic. Point is, it doesn't matter if he decides he doesn't like working for the actually evil dudes any more, anyone who's a Corsair (and especially a captain!) would already be complicit in doing the sort of things Corsairs did and those were totally amoral, irrespective of whether their leaders were evil. So credit to any of them who turn against the evil dudes, but the Corsairs are still bad guys. They've just got standards of a sort, even if it's only not wanting to see Umbar being trashed. That doesn't make them good guys, not even sort of. So that makes them potentially interesting characters for storytelling purposes but doesn't do anything to make them good candidates to be player-characters.

I, personally, disagree, and I, personally, think that is a very narrow-minded viewpoint. No one is irredeemable. Somewhere, in all the ranks of the Corsairs, the devs could find that ONE redeemable person to be a player character.

[Atonu]

Point is, oh unhistorically inclined one, that that's what the real Corsairs were like and a corsair wasn't just any old pirate, it was a specific sort with a well-deserved reputation. And that's a reference that goes along with how the Haradrim also field scimitar-wielding light cavalry and war-elephants in battle. Not at all hard to see what Tolkien was getting at there.


I was being sarcastic. Point is, it doesn't matter if he decides he doesn't like working for the actually evil dudes any more, anyone who's a Corsair (and especially a captain!) would already be complicit in doing the sort of things Corsairs did and those were totally amoral, irrespective of whether their leaders were evil. So credit to any of them who turn against the evil dudes, but the Corsairs are still bad guys. They've just got standards of a sort, even if it's only not wanting to see Umbar being trashed. That doesn't make them good guys, not even sort of. So that makes them potentially interesting characters for storytelling purposes but doesn't do anything to make them good candidates to be player-characters.

But plenty of free people betray the free people. There are so many examples of people on the "good" side betraying it for power or greed and yet you seem completely incapable of seeing that the enemy could do the same. This argument is pointless, I've already given 5-6 reasonable explanations of how someone aligned with the corsairs originally, could come to see things in a different light. Since you like history so much instead of lore, you'd claim that in the history of the world, there has been been one person who maybe did subscribe to beliefs of their nation that changed sides when they saw reality? Would the free people be quick to trust them? of course not, but they aren't quick to trust anyone.. in case you hadn't noticed much of the world is pretty distrustful of outsiders in general but as Tolkien was a huge fan of, deeds speak louder than words. Ultimately there are many good reasons a corsair may start doing good deeds, even if its simply repayment for a kindness or mercy shown to them and then get swept up in the adventure. As someone pointed out above, every class/race has a pretty flimsy reason to be involved, that is just the nature of it being a game.

Having an interesting and different skillset and playstyle is what makes them good player characters. Characters don't have a backstory unless you make them one, so ultimately what they have done and why they changed would be down for players to decide. (Well, High Elves and Stout-Axe would be the exception but even then you see a very narrow field of something they did a period before you start, not an entire history).

Edit: We haven't even factored in that if its not a class/race combo, then its likely the player corsairs may never have been a corsair in the way we understand it at all, maybe some random retired corsair taught them the fighting style and tools to survive in exchange for pie and ale. As I said before there are many viable hooks that make perfect sense, not just the one that you envision every corsair ever born must subscribe to.

[Radhruin_EU]

I, personally, disagree, and I, personally, think that is a very narrow-minded viewpoint. No one is irredeemable. Somewhere, in all the ranks of the Corsairs, the devs could find that ONE redeemable person to be a player character.

And I, personally, think that's facile as it's far too simplistic. Redemption should take a lot more than "oh all right then" (which is all you're offering here, no better than an excuse) and certainly in Tolkien generally some sins are so grievous that they can only be redeemed in death (as with Boromir's heroic last stand, for example, which paid for what he'd done earlier). Again, the Corsairs were bad people and Tolkien treats them as such - not just misled or dragged into it against their will (so not like that nameless Haradrim soldier who Sam sees lying dead, symbolising all the other countless victims of Sauron's malice, cruelty and warmongering) but actually bad which of course they are, given what they do for a living. They traffic in human suffering for profit. In the context of a culture that'd been influenced by Sauron for a very long time indeed it should be no surprise that that'd have been normalised, but you're busily trying to whitewash that out.