So the up coming new class is Corsair?

[TesalionLortus]

Do all corsairs carry around a name badge identifying themselves and a list of their past crimes?

If Elrond starts his sentence with "My dear [class] = Corsair" then he surely is aware they're a Corsair no? And that goes for every NPC. Which makes all these quests and stories broken at a fundamental level, so your player character might as well be an orc. Not to mention any redeemed, regretful Corsair would no longer be a Corsair and would no longer identify as a Corsair. End of story, basic common sense. (And if they still do identify as Corsairs and value some of their ways... that means they wouldn't run around Eriador and Gondor helping every single person out of a goodness of their pure heart)

[Flaxie]

What about the raid I was in the other day which had 3 hobbits, 2 beornings, 2 high elves and 2 stout-axes? Seems a strange mix of characters that are each only meant to be one offs.

What you're describing is obviously roleplay, which is fine but it's not my cup of tea and nor do most people engage in that type of gameplay. Yes the quests are written that way, and many of the situations would seem ridiculous if you'd imagined that everyone had been through the same experience, but most people just take it at face value and don't try to overthink it. For most people, if they see half a dozen hobbits wondering around Minas Tirith they don't really think anything of it, seeing just one orc in the same location though would look totally out of place. In Tolkien's world a corsair is not much better than an orc, and would be killed on sight in Gondor.

Then why, pray tell, was Jajax not "killed on sight" in Gondor? Not only was he sitting in the tavern openly enjoying a drink in Ethring (can't remember the spelling), but also openly
wandering around Dol Amroth before that. Yes, people were suspicious of him, but he was not killed on sight.

[Elmagor]

Yes, I agree what having Corsair will be a bit silly comparing with other classes, because corsairs don't have any impactfull role in Tolkien works. And even more important, because we can't have corsairs without using ships and sea, and Lotro don't have much of it. And we already known what SSG confirm what they don't make any new system like warsteeds related to ships. That situation turns corsar into yet another melee dps without much background or reason to be here. I hope SSG understand that and have huge rework in already existing world to support sea/ships/corsairs. Don't have much faith in that, because we seen what they just recently add enough trainers/instance sets/loot drops for Bralwer, such work must be done with Gundabad release, not 1.5 year later.

But, after all we have Guardian of Food and Captain of Man in 2008, and now even High Elf and Dwarf can be Captain.

[TesalionLortus]

Then why, pray tell, was Jajax not "killed on sight" in Gondor? Not only was he sitting in the tavern openly enjoying a drink in Ethring (can't remember the spelling), but also openly
wandering around Dol Amroth before that. Yes, people were suspicious of him, but he was not killed on sight.

Ethring was a pretty small town, far from coast, so maybe he blended in better, but presumably tried to hide his identity too... but later he clearly saw need to go to more extreme measures...

"You cannot help but laugh at Jajax's brazen appearance in the city of his enemies.'Why do you laugh? I left much of my armor behind, and wrapped myself in this flimsy lady's cloak, like the men here do. Is the disguise insufficient?"

If those were Dol Amroth guards who figured him out he surely would have been killed or imprisoned on sight.

[Elmagor]

Ethring was a pretty small town, far from coast, so maybe he blended in better, but presumably tried to hide his identity too... but later he clearly saw need to go to more extreme measures...

"You cannot help but laugh at Jajax's brazen appearance in the city of his enemies.'Why do you laugh? I left much of my armor behind, and wrapped myself in this flimsy lady's cloak, like the men here do. Is the disguise insufficient?"

If those were Dol Amroth guards who figured him out he surely would have been killed or imprisoned on sight.

Because Dol Amroth was attacked by Jajax friends and Pelargir was siedged. But after War of the Rings ends it will be in Aragorn's interests to bring Umbar back to Gondor side one way or another.

[Radhruin_EU]

You mean like half hobbit pirate beorning corsairs who waylay travelers and ransom them for honey berry pies? I really do not think that has anything to do with this discussion, Radhruin. Please try to remain on topic.

Given that Tolkien was plainly likening his Corsairs to the cruel and ruthless slave-taking variety and the real and grim history of that it's absolutely on topic. You can play devil's advocate all you like, but if the devs go with Corsair it'll be a truly terrible choice because of that.

Of the existing classes, Burglar has a dubious image but that's tempered with the idea in The Hobbit that first-class, professional Burglars will steal your stuff through craft and guile rather than just knifing you, so there's a bit of a 'gentleman thief' thing going on there. By contrast there's absolutely nothing like that to draw on from LOTR when it comes to Corsairs; they're not romanticised in the least.

[Atonu]

If Elrond starts his sentence with "My dear [class] = Corsair" then he surely is aware they're a Corsair no? And that goes for every NPC. Which makes all these quests and stories broken at a fundamental level, so your player character might as well be an orc. Not to mention any redeemed, regretful Corsair would no longer be a Corsair and would no longer identify as a Corsair. End of story, basic common sense. (And if they still do identify as Corsairs and value some of their ways... that means they wouldn't run around Eriador and Gondor helping every single person out of a goodness of their pure heart)

There I agree with you as I said a few pages back. Having a former corsair as a pc is perfectly fine and easy to fit in, but if they gave up their corsairing ways, they wouldn't be a corsair anymore. Duelist, swashbuckler even something more generic like rogue or drifter would fit a lot better with the role they would then hold. The skills ect would all be the same, but they wouldnt tell people they were a corsair, or as i said previously every conversation would be "I'm a corsair, but not that kind of corsair", they'd just come up with a different way to describe themselves, sort of like expert treasure hunter for burglar.

But ultimately for the purpose of a game, corsair works fine. Its not like in lore people are referred to by their class, its just a way of making npcs seem to relate to the player, i always thought it was a bit odd that people would look at you and be like "I know you're a burglar!"

[Flaxie]

Ethring was a pretty small town, far from coast, so maybe he blended in better, but presumably tried to hide his identity too... but later he clearly saw need to go to more extreme measures...

"You cannot help but laugh at Jajax's brazen appearance in the city of his enemies.'Why do you laugh? I left much of my armor behind, and wrapped myself in this flimsy lady's cloak, like the men here do. Is the disguise insufficient?"

If those were Dol Amroth guards who figured him out he surely would have been killed or imprisoned on sight.

I'll give you the danger in Dol Amroth, but please note: It was before Ethring, not later.

[Atonu]

Given that Tolkien was plainly likening his Corsairs to the cruel and ruthless slave-taking variety and the real and grim history of that it's absolutely on topic. You can play devil's advocate all you like, but if the devs go with Corsair it'll be a truly terrible choice because of that.

Of the existing classes, Burglar has a dubious image but that's tempered with the idea in The Hobbit that first-class, professional Burglars will steal your stuff through craft and guile rather than just knifing you, so there's a bit of a 'gentleman thief' thing going on there. By contrast there's absolutely nothing like that to draw on from LOTR when it comes to Corsairs; they're not romanticised in the least.

The ones that went to attack Gondor, we don't know what is going on in Umbar itself other than it has a tyrannical government. So you think the people of Umbar offer up no resistance and are just like "It's the pirates life for us!"? As I've said before you seem to make wide assumptions based on very limited text. Ultimately most of what happens in the Umbar expansion will be outside the scope of the known lore either way, given that all we know is some of the history. I asked for sources before and you showed me one line which said they had some slaves on the ships that attacked and have just been like "Welp, all corsairs are slaving owning monsters!"

[Radhruin_EU]

No, you simply cannot do that. As I said before, if we apply that logic to the rest of the game, the whole thing falls apart. It makes no sense at all that there are so many hobbits, dwarves, elves and men all running around ME saving the day. Remember in the battle for Helm's Deep when Aragorn said "We might lose, but don't worry because I have 6 fresh hobbits coming to save the day." Either you can separate lore from gameplay or you cannot, you cant pick and choose as it suits your purpose. If we start picking apart obvious gameplay systems and try to fit them into lore then like I said, the whole thing becomes a mess.

This also fails because you're equivocating between accepting that there are at least *some* more adventurers than just your guy (which you logically *have* to do in a game which can involve grouping up with others in the course of your character's adventures) and acknowledging that there are thousands of other characters. You can do one without having to do the other. I already said that you can pretend your character is 'the' guy, the Hero of Eriador etc,, the one who's having all the adventures in the game but equally given that there's grouping there must be others who are notionally having their own adventures which may occasionally intersect with yours. And given that they can be much like your character, you cannot insist that your guy is the one and only example of 'whatever'.

[TesalionLortus]

There I agree with you as I said a few pages back. Having a former corsair as a pc is perfectly fine and easy to fit in, but if they gave up their corsairing ways, they wouldn't be a corsair anymore.

You want to agree with me and then also disagree with me, to approve the logic but then also ignore that and act like it's perfectly logical - sorry, can't do both.

The skills ect would all be the same, but they wouldnt tell people they were a corsair, or as i said previously every conversation would be "I'm a corsair, but not that kind of corsair", they'd just come up with a different way to describe themselves, sort of like expert treasure hunter for burglar.

Yes, so a class can't be called a Corsair, because unlike Burglars it has seriously bad connotations within the game world and its lore. (Burglars don't need to explain themselves all the time because the "expert treasure hunter" is part of the definition of a Burglar within this world).

If you support "Corsair" name for a class because "not that kind of Corsair!" then I want the same with the Angmarim sorcerer or uruk because "not that kind of Angmarim!" and "not that kind of Uruk!" and Elrond and literally anyone else would be fine with it (No they wouldn't but if we don't care at all and ignore that fact, well then... come on, Orc, Angmarim, Uruk, Goblin Sapper, not even a good troll and woodtroll would be problems here... so in that case, I want to see them as available Free Peoples classes )

But ultimately for the purpose of a game, corsair works fine. Its not like in lore people are referred to by their class, its just a way of making npcs seem to relate to the player, i always thought it was a bit odd that people would look at you and be like "I know you're a burglar!"

No, it doesn't, because NPCs still refer to you by your class name on many occasions - which is not stupid and like they're all fortune tellers, because the PC has mouth too - that they realistically use no doubt to introduce themselves - plus there might be already some rumors spread about them etc.

[Elebraen]

A new class would imply unique abilities and/or weapons. What would a seafaring class, regardless of its name, bring to the game that would be different from:

Beorning
Brawler
Burglar
Captain
Champion
Guardian
Hunter
Lore-master
Minstrel
Rune-keeper

Regarding "good" versus "evil", uh, come on, people. We're killing creatures with all of these classes, murder being a capital crime. Burglary is pretty lame by comparison.

[Atonu]

This also fails because you're equivocating between accepting that there are at least *some* more adventurers than just your guy (which you logically *have* to do in a game which can involve grouping up with others in the course of your character's adventures) and acknowledging that there are thousands of other characters. You can do one without having to do the other. I already said that you can pretend your character is 'the' guy, the Hero of Eriador etc,, the one who's having all the adventures in the game but equally given that there's grouping there must be others who are notionally having their own adventures which may occasionally intersect with yours. And given that they can be much like your character, you cannot insist that your guy is the one and only example of 'whatever'.

So you think many High Elves were stabbed in the second age? Or that Grimbeorn had like thousands of children? There are other adventurers, sure, but they don't (in game lore) do the same adventures you do, they do other things. Sometimes you group up to do things that require more than just you but ultimately when it comes to quests and stories you are the only one doing them, and other people are just there helping you. You get the credit, you get the reward. This is how every story in every MMO has ever worked. (Well, ok, maybe there are some more freeform MMOs that don't work that way :P)

[Radhruin_EU]

So you think many High Elves were stabbed in the second age? Or that Grimbeorn had like thousands of children? There are other adventurers, sure, but they don't (in game lore) do the same adventures you do, they do other things. Sometimes you group up to do things that require more than just you but ultimately when it comes to quests and stories you are the only one doing them, and other people are just there helping you. You get the credit, you get the reward. This is how every story in every MMO has ever worked. (Well, ok, maybe there are some more freeform MMOs that don't work that way :P)

No, you just need to read what I said more carefully. Way to miss the point.

- there must be at least *some* more adventurers than your guy, whose paths you may occasionally cross (= grouping). NOT that everyone has the exact same set of adventures.
- some of those may also be like your guy (same class or race/class combo)
- therefore when speaking generally you can't insist there's only one example of 'x' who's an adventurer.

QED

[TesalionLortus]

So you think the people of Umbar offer up no resistance and are just like "It's the pirates life for us!"?

I would refer you back to that post I made above about some deeply-rooted - no doubt - cultural context behind the region and then ask yourself this: if you're some poor good-hearted lad from a local fishing village and resisting Corsair's life (with no care towards their history and culture) then... would you call yourself a Corsair and act like you're a Corsair, one of them? Really?

Or, if you were forced into this life due to famine etc, but had regrets and saw a chance to escape, then would you think of yourself as a romantic Corsair who introduces themselves as a Corsair? Really? Or would you have nighmares of your past misdeeds at the mere mention of a Corsair, a name you left behind?

Finally, if you're still effectively still a Corsair which implies a ship, see warfare and raids, have no regrets, call yourself a Corsair, but wanna strike back against Umbar's government that you see as particularly nasty and free your own people/local population from the shackles of Sauron... what does that make you? A local rebel and not the worst of your kind, sure, but certainly not a goody-shoes hero and adventurer interested to help out the entire Middle-earth and hobbitses out of the distant Shire...

I'll give you the danger in Dol Amroth, but please note: It was before Ethring, not later.

Yeah, my mind was working backwards with this one, sorry. But that's even better then, meaning the PC laughed at them so they stopped trying too hard but they've already gotten rid of their distinct Corsair armor set by the time of Ethring, so this actually proves my original point much better.

[Radhruin_EU]

But ultimately for the purpose of a game, corsair works fine. Its not like in lore people are referred to by their class, its just a way of making npcs seem to relate to the player, i always thought it was a bit odd that people would look at you and be like "I know you're a burglar!"

Bad argument, because not only does the game openly acknowledge what class you are in dialogue (it really shouldn't, that's bad writing, but it does) but the baggage that names come with matters. Saying Corsair would be okay is like saying Assassin or Sorcerer would be okay even though those are negative things, implying the character is sinister or just plain bad, possibly even evil.

The ones that went to attack Gondor, we don't know what is going on in Umbar itself other than it has a tyrannical government. So you think the people of Umbar offer up no resistance and are just like "It's the pirates life for us!"? As I've said before you seem to make wide assumptions based on very limited text. Ultimately most of what happens in the Umbar expansion will be outside the scope of the known lore either way, given that all we know is some of the history. I asked for sources before and you showed me one line which said they had some slaves on the ships that attacked and have just been like "Welp, all corsairs are slaving owning monsters!"

Err... yeah, just like in various historical port cities in North Africa, in Umbar the slave trade would just be business, part of the culture. Some people in Umbar might well have hated it but the regime would be all for it (it'd be highly profitable!) and for the Corsairs themselves it'd be how they earned a living, and lots of other people would profit from it indirectly. If their ships are rowed by slaves then the rest follows: it's a slaving culture, and a notably cruel one at that. If that's the setup, pirates would be guaranteed to sell captives as slaves. So yes, these pirates are really not nice at all even by piratical standards; Tolkien never gives us any reason to doubt that they're villains.

[Oldwiley]

Keep em evil and strengthen the argument for more open world pvp ^.^

[Phantion]

I agree with those in the thread who have said "Mariner" would make a better name for the class. Any Corsairs who turned good would name themselves "Mariners" and would not be using that "Corsair" title in Gondor or anywhere else. Also, Tolkien had a distaste for French names and roots in most cases. Probably had to do with WWI.

Cheers!

[Elmagor]

I agree with those in the thread who have said "Mariner" would make a better name for the class. Any Corsairs who turned good would name themselves "Mariners" and would not be using that "Corsair" title in Gondor or anywhere else. Also, Tolkien had a distaste for French names and roots in most cases. Probably had to do with WWI.

Cheers!

With corsair we have term for "good guys" - Privateer

[Radhruin_EU]

With corsair we have term for "good guys" - Privateer

Err... and who's going to be issuing letters of marque or whatever to them, then? And don't say Aragorn, because having his own official set of licensed pirates really doesn't sound like something he'd do

[Elmagor]

Err... and who's going to be issuing letters of marque or whatever to them, then? And don't say Aragorn, because having his own official set of licensed pirates really doesn't sound like something he'd do

Way then he lead small fleet to attack Umbar and burn harbor can be considered as job for Privateer. Sure Tolkien know about Sir Francis Drake and what he done for England

[Radhruin_EU]

Way then he lead small fleet to attack Umbar and burn harbor can be considered as job for Privateer. Sure Tolkien know about Sir Francis Drake and what he done for England

You're really reaching there - just because Drake was a privateer and there's the similarity of destroying a fleet at anchor (I assume you're thinking of the raid on Cadiz) doesn't mean Aragorn was acting as one. Drake got a personal cut of the profits from the stuff he laid hands on and a big cut (half!) went to the Queen herself because she'd provided him with four royal warships. Somehow I rather doubt Aragorn's relationship with the Steward of Gondor worked like that

[Schattenhand]

I just hope they don't make another goofy and "funny" class like the brawler has become.
While it feels okay to play, imo, it looks completely silly. Those animations feel like they called Daybreak to get an animations Dev and they got one from the DC Universe online team. And saying it got it's inspiration from Helm Hammerhand, nah man. Helm's Story was kinda tragic and cruel, Brawler is just slapstick stuff.


And in that regard i fear we'll get some Disney Pirate class, swining ropes, and screaming "Har har, the sea is always wrong."

[SniperCT]

I have three thoughts:

1) Swashbuckling combat sounds FUN! And if it implies some kind of sea-based content I'm always here for sailing and ships in MMOs. One of my favorite things to do in black desert.
2) Corsair as a class name has ...bad implications within the context of LOTRO. If this were another game, it would be fine as an alternate word for a pirate class. In LOTR, corsairs are a specific faction aligned with Sauron*
3) I like that idea of calling the class 'Duelist' more than Venturer. Too close to just 'Adventurer' which is what all classes are at heart. Swashbuckler would also be fun, but I love buckling swashes.


*Lots of discussion about a corsair that defected or otherwise joined the free peoples, but not making sense leveling through all the old content, so I propose to add to the discussion this: a class that starts at a higher level.

A class that starts at, say level 105, right around or just after the main epic books have completed. Sauron is gone, but there's a large mess left behind. A former Corsair working to redeem herself would be a very interesting thing to do, and could easily play into Elessar's post-war designs on rooting out shadow and further freeing the south and east. One could, of course, go back and do other things, and I think this would require finishing up to wedding on another character on your server, but it could be the way to go. Their entire intro experience could revolve around earning that initial trust to be granted free movement.

[Elebraen]

Err... and who's going to be issuing letters of marque or whatever to them, then? And don't say Aragorn, because having his own official set of licensed pirates really doesn't sound like something he'd do

Who was the leader in Pelaglir? That's a major seaport anyway that's already constructed and a logical place to base the introduction of a Mariner class.