So the up coming new class is Corsair?

[k40rne]

Beorning - good folk. High Elves - good guys. Decent intros with good enough reasons justifying their presence.

Corsair - pirates, slavers, plunderers. It's not just some "skill set" but a way of life. Are you calling yourself a pirate but you are not sailing around seas plundering ships? Of course not, you do. It's not just some "lore thing" (I don't even care about these hobbit loremasters as much) it's outright common sense. Corsair is morally on a complete opposite side of the moral spectrum. They didn't give us a good "orc" or a "Black Numenorean" skillset to play either. They gave us an escaped resistant to evil dwarven slave out of Mordor.

If there is a Corsair class named as Corsair and framed as actual "good Corsair" who is still a Corsair and there isn't any firm reason for doing quests... OK, then I want my good orc, uruk, or Angmarim sorcerer to play as. Why not? There doesn't need to be any good reason for doing quests apparently

Didn't we already argue that a Corsair just refers a non state naval actor? Same as a privateer.

But let's just assume SSG call them Mariner to move away from the negative slaver connotation they have as Corsairs of Umbar (Barbary Coast Pirates).

[k40rne]

We know people are speculating on a possible class name since it was semi-discovered on Bullroarer, but the name is not the name we are going with for eventual release. It'll still probably show up in places in the game data, but its name will be different than people are speculating about.

Didn't need to be found on bullroarer to know what class you guys meant. You said specifically the class name was in the Producer's letter, which left little else as possibilities.

[k40rne]

I mean at least runekeepers make a little more sense than minstrels XD So all burglars are evil? I do think maybe Duelist would be a better name for them, not so much because I don't think its plausible for there to be one good corsair but rather because I think its a bad idea to have a class with the same name as a faction, even if they came up with some amazing lore reason that a corsair decides to switch sides, its still likely to cause confusion. As you said, if a corsair switched sides, they'd still have the same skills, same fighting styles ect but its unlikely they'd still be called corsairs, if for no other reason than they'd be fighting against them. Everyone they met they'd have to be like "I'm a corsair, but not like those corsairs"

I mean, one reasonable explanation is that you weren't a willing corsair in the first place. Maybe in order to fuel the fleet they started just forcing slaves onto the ships to work and it was either that or death, so at the first opportunity you jump ship. Or maybe your ship is sunk and you're nursed back to health. I don't know, in terms of an adventure hook there are plenty of options.

This is not very astute. You were on the right track with Not all Burglars are evil. Burglar, like Corsair has a deep meaning in the Tolkien universe. it doesn't necessarily connote morality.

[k40rne]

Ah the moral ambiguity of good vs evil. One mans freedom fighter and all that...

Tolkien never had his heroes poisoning baby wargs in Wildermore, would have made for bad press and I never felt entirely comfortable with it, fair amount of poisoning and general murderous activity going on.

My orc player has certainly displayed a lot ore honour and chivalry than many of the freeps it came across over the years.

As Rad will know i've opposed pretty much all the lore based blurring over the years, despite the fact it is as inevitable as the sea rolling in...

Just another classic lore break, I added my sig like 10 years ago, it still stands now.

That irritating goblin in mordor blurred the line of good/evil/self interest: blurry as it may be, am sure there will be plenty of corsairs in game to follow on from all the other lore breaks that have come before.

A hobbit and high elf corsair would be even funnier, as long as its taking that pet goose onto the battlefield ofc.

it added complexity to different societies, but it appears you'd like to live in a world without nuance.

As far as Lore breaking, I doubt you understand that Tolkien himself was constantly doing this, trying to make the world more believable by reshaping it.

[Pharone]

We know people are speculating on a possible class name since it was semi-discovered on Bullroarer, but the name is not the name we are going with for eventual release. It'll still probably show up in places in the game data, but its name will be different than people are speculating about.

You should have let them argue over corsair for another ten pages and then just replied with, "Its not corsair. Try again."

[k40rne]

Yes, anyone with even a rudimentary interest in history would know just how horrible 'life' as a Barbary galley-slave must have been, and Tolkien's knowledge of history was far from rudimentary. These poor souls were chained to the oars and that was often where they remained, twenty-four hours a day, for the rest of their miserable lives. They were chained in rows and that was where they carried out all of their bodily functions, and they were whipped mercilessly if they were perceived to be not working hard enough. In situation like that where you'd expect that most of them would have welcomed death, many often survived for years.

Galleys in Roman times and the European galleys of the Middle Ages mostly used free men as rowers, sometimes resorting to the use of convicted criminals as slaves when manpower was short. Only the Barbary Corsairs used slaves exclusively.

You can be sure that when Tolkien wrote about his Corsairs, such horrific cruelty was imagined as being part of their makeup.

And how is this different from European colonial powers with chattel slavery?

I agree slave has a different meaning depending upon the time of history we are talking. The (known accepted) worst treated is the chattel slavery of the 15th-19th century by practically all the old empires. So just saying Barbary Coast means slaver is a bit silly, without understanding all of them were doing similar within that time period.

[Quenton_1]

We know people are speculating on a possible class name since it was semi-discovered on Bullroarer, but the name is not the name we are going with for eventual release. It'll still probably show up in places in the game data, but its name will be different than people are speculating about.

I would support Swashbuckler.

[k40rne]

You're talking about race again and not class. A stout axe dwarf is a race. A brawler is a class. A Corsair is a race, referring to a specific group of men, not their particular fighting style.

As for the intro... I lost my ship in a terrible storm that threw me up on shore near Pelaglir or Dol Amroth. I can still wield a trident for a brand new weapon class, which would be the point of making a new class. My race? Not yet determined. I might have been an adventurous River Hobbit Seafarer.

Corsair most definitely is not a race.

I think you mean ethnicity & it isn't necessarily that either. It depends how its written in of course.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Didn't need to be found on bullroarer to know what class you guys meant. You said specifically the class name was in the Producer's letter, which left little else as possibilities.

They said "hints" of the class are in letter thats different then saying the name is there, so hints are its a pirate class not the name.

[TesalionLortus]

Didn't we already argue that a Corsair just refers a non state naval actor? Same as a privateer.

But let's just assume SSG call them Mariner to move away from the negative slaver connotation they have as Corsairs of Umbar (Barbary Coast Pirates).

Well, yeah, but they wouldn't be privateers. In Tolkien's world there is no such thing, most likely, is not an age of sails. Corsairs would be Corsairs - it is kinda both, ethnicity (or at least a culture out of Umbar) and piracy. It's a sort of nation that has no room for "true moral good guys" since it's a nation of piracy. I imagine they're not "getting hired" by anyone, it's captains doing their own raids sorta like Vikings but they're also part of the larger feudal system that answer to ruler in Umbar.

[gildhur]

Funny that the first bit of "evidence" in the video is that "TBDCLASS" falls between Champ and Guard in the Fellowing UI class list, even though none of the rest of the list is in alphabetical order:



Clearly the rest of the snipped data says "Corsair", but after Cord's refutation, the class starting gear provides the best evidence for what the real class name will be:

[Elmagor]

Funny that the first bit of "evidence" in the video is that "TBDCLASS" falls between Champ and Guard in the Fellowing UI class list, even though none of the rest of the list is in alphabetical order:

Only Captain not in order, it looks like they move him down because of new class in his place

[Radhruin_EU]

I'm just not blowing things out of proportions, I think, while still wanting some coherence. I was only fine with it in Witcher 1-2 (minus the Dryads!) due to magic portals existing (and the origins through magic teleportation, with some of the random factor involved) and because they didn't go nuts with it (like they did recently...).

Err... yes they did, if you looked at the extras as well. The real point there is the lack of rhyme or reason in a setting if you do that to it - no real sense of place or culture, and accents all over the place (even for people supposedly from the same place). And in The Witcher's setting, it isn't meant to be random (so there is supposed to be a particular sense of place and culture to it) but the places where other peoples had entered the world were far apart and separated by natural barriers so other peoples were far off and scarce known. To top that, even if the portals had been random then after the long time the population had been there, the population would have tended to homogenise, the accents would blur and it wouldn't be diverse like that any more. Either way what they've done with it is dumb. You can make excuses for that if you like.

Back to LOTRO, any PC character would be somewhat capable adventurer/warrior, so taking such a risk for a good enough reason isn't unbelievable. They're not some weakling local merchant. Naturally, you have to deal with bandits and, in this world, wargs and wolfs and such, on the road. Stout Axe would be no exception. I'm not casual, I didn't say they're doing it like modern times. I only said there can be *some* Also, on Tolkien's map is longer distance from Rhun to Eriador but it's not that kind of distance like from China to France in a real world, it's much shorter actually, by a lot. Travel would be vastly limited between those places for multitude factors but is not impossible

Err... the Stout-axes don't have anything like as far to go as Haradrim would. Also of course Rhun isn't China, just like there's a whole lot of Asia to cross before you get to China. But the point is the distances are still very great and there are no trade routes to follow that might lead someone to Eriador. Again, it's a backwater. It's incredibly unlikely that some random Haradrim could make it all the way from wherever in Harad and then gravitate there of all places like he's a damn homing pigeon. Why there, when it's already unlikely that people from elsewhere in the West would be there themselves? It's silly, it doesn't have to be impossible to be so - just so unlikely as to be contrived and bad from a storytelling perspective.

You're overestimating Sauron's control here, like it's Matrix and every single aspect of their life is programmed. Invisible Berlin wall drawn, can't go, red enemies to fight, no borderlands with more neutral populace. Maybe you're talking start of the war, I was talking before the start. Bad blood can be there, sure, that's not something I said wouldn't be there. But that alone doesn't need to mean arrow to the back like in Dunland - which is an uncivilized backyard, frankly put. Some of such places you may have in Rhun and Harad too but you would also have more developed centers with some semblance of law and order, not tribal anarchy "we're doing what we please when out on a hunt." These would be under totalitarian regimes of course and allied to Sauron but it doesn't mean every single traveler would be immediately snatched without doing anything suspicious and sacrificed at the altar (though there can be "mistakes" of course). But especially vice versa, you wouldn't be just immediately snatched in the West and it's not modern world either by the way, so there is no surveillance. As I said, keep a low profile, use your hood if the place is particularly nasty, pick up some local customs as you go.

It's made clear that there are no friendly relations between the peoples within Sauron's dominion and the West because he'd put considerable effort into making it that way. There wouldn't be neutral borderlands, the peoples living near the borders would be more tightly controlled with a no-man's-land (like South Gondor) in between them and lands still held by the West. Travel between the two would be dangerous. And if you think the people in Gondor wouldn't notice strangers or have some sort of means of keeping an eye out for people who might be spies you're having a laugh: they have Sauron for a neighbour, they would *have* to be careful. And some random guy from Harad wouldn't even speak Westron and would look distinctive, so how is he supposed to not stand out?

Yeah, snatch every single traveler suspicious because of the color of their skin, weird accent and enjoying a peaceful meal at the local tavern. Just because. Because they may be a spy... even though it's only been a day, they haven't done anything wrong, were not seen snooping around garrisons, storage houses, fortifications etc, so more likely than not no one would even realize they are there - under normal circumstances, so you entered an open city gate, no questions asked, in one of the more populous and travelled settlements that sees a lot of travelers from nearby lands. And I never said there would be plenty of such travelers, only that some of them could actually be there, for one reason or another (escaped slave seeking freedom in lands beyond Sauron's control and known to have no slavery is a good example). Plus, any such PC would have important reason to undertake that journey - so worth the risk - rather than "I'm doing that on a whim because is certainly safe and like I'm going on vacation"

It's not normal circumstances! What on earth makes you think it is? Anyone like that would stick out like a sore thumb and attract attention, guaranteed. And what's this dude of yours supposed to say his business is, if someone in authority asks?

[theultimatekyle]

Funny that the first bit of "evidence" in the video is that "TBDCLASS" falls between Champ and Guard in the Fellowing UI class list, even though none of the rest of the list is in alphabetical order:



Clearly the rest of the snipped data says "Corsair", but after Cord's refutation, the class starting gear provides the best evidence for what the real class name will be:

God I hope its not called "Swashbuckler". Thats such a juvenile class name. At least "Mariners" are already well established in the lore, with Earendil and elwing. Brawler sounds goofy enough, we dont need a second joke.

[tansquare]

God I hope its not called "Swashbuckler". Thats such a juvenile class name. At least "Mariners" are already well established in the lore, with Earendil and elwing. Brawler sounds goofy enough, we dont need a second joke.

Wholly agree

[Radhruin_EU]

Didn't we already argue that a Corsair just refers a non state naval actor? Same as a privateer.

Privateers are state actors in all but name because they're commissioned by the state, like these Corsairs plainly are. If they're not official like that, they're just pirates.

[Arnenna]

We know people are speculating on a possible class name since it was semi-discovered on Bullroarer, but the name is not the name we are going with for eventual release. It'll still probably show up in places in the game data, but its name will be different than people are speculating about.

Are you saying here that while some of the ideas rolling around in here may be close to the mark, people are just off with the name of the class?

Gosh I hope not. I don't fancy running around Middle-earth beside a load of Zorros and Robin Hoods with a few Buttercups thrown in for good measure.

[Oldwiley]

it added complexity to different societies, but it appears you'd like to live in a world without nuance.

As far as Lore breaking, I doubt you understand that Tolkien himself was constantly doing this, trying to make the world more believable by reshaping it.

As far as the real world goes, it is saddening that it seems few people understand almost nothing has a straight forward simple answer; many people, particularly in the last few decades appear to hold strong "black and white" views on things that are far more complex. If anything there is usually a lot more grey area than people would take the time to accept. So certainly as I began my post with good vs evil and the one man's freedom fighter, I'd certainly like to see a lot more nuanced views generally.

As for lore breaking... I think the game became a very loose interpretation of Tolkien's environment a long long way back, its been a steady creep. But hey if you feel Mt T would have been inspired by equal portions of High Elves, Elves, Hobbits, Fist Fighters, Dwarves and the ever present menagerie of pet animals attending his iconic settings like Helms deep et al then ok. Lets not forget even the much acclaimed films could not resist increasing the number of elves at helms deep from one to 102ish.

Try not to take my posts too seriously.

My captain still has some pirate hat he acquired when the cap was 50 in his vault... as for piracy / slavery its never been a morally right thing, yes its been present in many civilisations and is only relatively recently considered no ok in (most) of the modern world.

I mean servant classes, peasants, nobility and kings are interesting topics for an ethical debate in the context of middle earth. Maybe volume 54 will bring a questline where some republicans try to overthrow the line of kings.

All the semantics about Privateers vs Pirates: if a state sponsors you to murder and steal at sea then that's ok then, as opposed to personal self interest, ah nuances....

My favourite post in this thread is the one pointing out that the new class will not be called Corsair : after that posts kept coming ^.^

[Oldwiley]

Are you saying here that while some of the ideas rolling around in here may be close to the mark, people are just off with the name of the class?

Gosh I hope not. I don't fancy running around Middle-earth beside a load of Zorros and Robin Hoods with a few Buttercups thrown in for good measure.

Must Check if Inigo Montoya is a taken name ^.^

[CloudCastle]

Only Captain not in order, it looks like they move him down because of new class in his place

Well alphabetically Hunter doesn't come before Champion either.

[auximenes]

Only Captain not in order, it looks like they move him down because of new class in his place

Not just Captain, Hunter is out of order as well.
Brawler
Burglar
Hunter
Champion
TBD
Guardian
Lore-master
Minstrel
Captain
Rune-keeper

[k40rne]

They said "hints" of the class are in letter thats different then saying the name is there, so hints are its a pirate class not the name.

hair splitting, we are talking about a class that borders on mariner, corsair, swashbuclkler. The name is not really relevant, the Devs will make the story work regardless.

Also, lets not forget - the Numenorians were themselves, slavers, at different periods of their history.

[k40rne]

Privateers are state actors in all but name because they're commissioned by the state, like these Corsairs plainly are. If they're not official like that, they're just pirates.

You really think these Corsairs are one big society, and not a lose affiliation of warring clans?

Yes, privateer & pirate are one and the same, the designation privateer just demonstrates they are under contract of a particular state. But corsair also falls under this rubric.

Etymology. Borrowed from French corsaire, from Medieval Latin cursarius (“pirate”), from Latin cursus (“course, a running; plunder, hostile inroad”). Doublet of courser and hussar.

Tolkien didn't have much to say on these other civilizations, but I'm sure he'd be delighted for someone (intelligently) expanding his legacy to include realistic understandings & portrayals of these complex cultures & societies. They certainly aren't monoliths & I'd expect SSG to take more of a Dunlending approach to to these areas in terms of ethnography. He was a linguistic anthropologist afterall.

[k40rne]

As far as the real world goes, it is saddening that it seems few people understand almost nothing has a straight forward simple answer; many people, particularly in the last few decades appear to hold strong "black and white" views on things that are far more complex. If anything there is usually a lot more grey area than people would take the time to accept. So certainly as I began my post with good vs evil and the one man's freedom fighter, I'd certainly like to see a lot more nuanced views generally.

Well, I'm glad we agree nuance is extremely important, and certainly lacking mores so - in these days of heightened polarization.

As for lore breaking... I think the game became a very loose interpretation of Tolkien's environment a long long way back, its been a steady creep. But hey if you feel Mt T would have been inspired by equal portions of High Elves, Elves, Hobbits, Fist Fighters, Dwarves and the ever present menagerie of pet animals attending his iconic settings like Helms deep et al then ok. Lets not forget even the much acclaimed films could not resist increasing the number of elves at helms deep from one to 102ish.

Yes, but it has to maintain being a game as well, a delicate balance I'm sure you'd agree. LOTRO has always been more known for the landscape world it created & in the distant past, its raid content . It has gotten better with stories imho. Certainly, Black book of Mordor was well done, but there are always going to be certain aspects we have to let slide a bit.

Try not to take my posts too seriously.

Yes, I'm the same, I try to convey light-heartedness wherever possible.

All the semantics about Privateers vs Pirates: if a state sponsors you to murder and steal at sea then that's ok then, as opposed to personal self interest, ah nuances....

Well, there wasn't much to pick between any of them. A bit like knights whom we all love to romanticize, but they were much worse than most pirates - truth be told.

[Elebraen]

So you didn't watch the full video.

Yes, I did watch the full video. But he lost my suspension of disbelief at the obvious alphabetical flaw in the listed order of classes where he pointed out the TBDClass insertion.

There's speculation based on plausible facts and assumptions, and then there's building in what you want to believe, making up facts and assumptions to fit. Class confirmed? Not even close.

Fact: We already have Swanfleet, Cardolan and Angle of Mithenil, which I haven't played yet, but I understand that a town in Angle is filled with young rangers. What a perfect set-up for a new ranger class to go. Already leveling from 0-40 without any jarring, lore-breaking ideas getting inserted in there. Would I take those young rangers to Umbar? Yes, I would. They're trigger-happy hero wannabes who missed the big war.

And my speculation still fits with all of the things that the OP pointed out, the any direction you want to read it alphabetical order, the medium armor, the swashbuckling sword description that is a common landscape drop in low level areas. The only thing that it doesn't fit with is the reverse engineering of the beta by a friend to find out what the devs named their object classes. But for all I know, they just used the name Corsair because those are the known enemy stats to balance a new class against. Hard to speculate on the significance of the object class name when it's been pulled out of the programming context.

And I like rangers in a D & D context. They can use melee, range and some nature based spells, and they're covert, able to hide like a burglar. A Jack of All Trades. But a Dunedain would be a human with a much longer history, a nice balance for the high elf and stout axe dwarves, descendant from the men of Numenor who sailed the seas.