Question about a Forochel quest

[DavidmeetHal]

I was doing one of the beginning Forochel quests, "The Ties That Bind", the one where you go into an instance to hold off the bride's brothers while the groom to be makes his move.

Historically, you would beat off the brothers while the groom proposes to the bride, but this time the brothers came running from a runaway mammoth that I had to put down, and it wasn't even killed, it was just wounded.

I've done this quest many times over the years, but it always ended with me beating up the brothers. Is this part with a mammoth showing up something new? If so, it's really lame. I hope it's not some kind of dumbing down.

[TesalionLortus]

I've seen this posted on reddit, yes it was changed, but I never figured out what was changed exactly based on what people said back then.

So are you saying the brothers don't antagonize you anymore and it's just you saving them from a mammoth? And then all is fine and happy? Because yeah, in that case, it is really lame and seems like the devs don't have anything better to actually improve for the better, rather they go back to older stuff to dump it down, as you said, which is beyond silly if true. I though they just added an additional stage of battle, with a mammoth, for some reason, but even a fun little change like that wouldn't make a lot of sense from "time efficiency" standpoint - because the quest was just fine and time better spend elsewhere.

Was one of the rare times the PC doesn't just end up being friends with every stranger, something that should happen a lot more in places of the South, so it's a bit worrying if the change in this quest happened because... too much antagonism lol?

[DavidmeetHal]

So are you saying the brothers don't antagonize you anymore and it's just you saving them from a mammoth? And then all is fine and happy?

The first two brothers tried to beat me up as usual, and then the toughest came running in shouting about a mammoth, which didn't even die, it was just subdued by my hand alone. And they just stood by while the guy and girl said a couple of lines, and the instance ended.

Talk about a totally unneeded change. If it wasn't for the forum rules, I'd be using stronger words than "lame'. Makes me mad because every time I did Forochel, I looked forward to that quest line.

Quite frankly, the changes are insulting to the intelligence of the player base. It's literally dumbing down.

[TesalionLortus]

Yeah, then it's weird and such a pointless change/addition. I would really like to know the rationale behind such decision and why someone thought it's worth their dev time to change it

At least you still fight the two brothers... but the fact they're just standing there, saved by your heroic hand alone, rather than be chased away is silly yeah

[Bakenellan]

The change puzzled me as well when I encountered it. The previous version was rather funny. But...

I'd guess it was changed because you essentially participated in kidnapping and fought the people who tried to defend the victim. While the victim refused to play the part it nevertheless alluded to a less then wholesome practice and played it for laugh.

[TesalionLortus]

I'd guess it was changed because you essentially participated in kidnapping and fought the people who tried to defend the victim. While the victim refused to play the part it nevertheless alluded to a less then wholesome practice and played it for laugh.

If that's the case, then this is silly. This was a specific situation within a specific culture and set in non-modern setting, most of all. (And still framed in a way where it was the brothers trying to use violence, so most likely the case of patriarchy, so to speak, and them not providing their "permission" for the union - it was pretty much said so in the quest itself).

We might as well say the game should not have displays of rotten corpses in these cages because too vulgar imagery or entirely change some models like maidens and merrevails because they may appear too sexually sensual to somebody. We don't need the game's narrative be dumped down to uphold some "modern principles" and cater to the most extreme of sensitivities. It's wasted dev work and doesn't benefit the game and its stories at all.

[istvana]

Every time I do this quest - the latest time yesterday - I think that the original version fit the people and the culture a lot better.

[DavidmeetHal]

Every time I do this quest - the latest time yesterday - I think that the original version fit the people and the culture a lot better.

Agreed 100%. This new version makes no sense whatsoever.

[Laurelinarien]

Agreed 100%. This new version makes no sense whatsoever.

It's what we end up with every time there's changes motivated by the moral high ground posturing some people have adopted. I lack understanding of a foreign culture + I judge what they do immoral under the light of my postmodern eyeglasses = I cancel.

Not surprised. The previous version made it clear that it was more of a traditional & symbolic ceremony. Pinja was a strong woman.

[TesalionLortus]

That aside, how sane is it to specifically go out of your way to change the perfectly written quest just because "modern culture"... in a game that has ton of them? No one will quit the game over this one quest, no one.

Well, maybe it was done because it was in the bug queue (but is not a bug) because some immature people screamed about it - in which case it begs the question what their bugs priorities even are and why stuff like this gets included in the first place. Change things based on decent reasoning and solid feedback where it's self evident changes are needed, not based on fancies of complainers who don't even get the story and the crafted world and are quick to skip over it or even quit the game (probably).

PS: Hey, water wasn't blue enough - but turned out it was beautiful and more realistic all along and shouldn't become a blue liquid jelly. So... maybe they should restore this old quest back too

[Bakenellan]

Well, maybe it was done because it was in the bug queue (but is not a bug) because some immature people screamed about it - ...

Just a wild guess here - perhaps some threatened a legal action? In-game Lossoth are inspired by Saami people. Perhaps someone thought it misrepresent actual Saami culture. As our overlords are Swedish company they may see it more seriously.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

Might be a bug? I don't see a reason why this specific quest instance would change after many years, especially when there's no update to the Forochel region at all.

Edit: I went back to the reflecting pool in Forochel to see myself and doesn't seem like a bug, not sure why this was changed though, I prefer the old version.

[TesalionLortus]

Just a wild guess here - perhaps some threatened a legal action? In-game Lossoth are inspired by Saami people. Perhaps someone thought it misrepresent actual Saami culture. As our overlords are Swedish company they may see it more seriously.

Is that even possible? I mean... it's a fantasy game... and they're loosely inspired at best... not actual representation of Saami people.

[Laurelinarien]

Is that even possible? I mean... it's a fantasy game... and they're loosely inspired at best... not actual representation of Saami people.

They do have a history of complaining but usually very publicly. I've seen nothing regarding LOTRO, while there's plenty regarding Final Fantasy

[TesalionLortus]

They do have a history of complaining but usually very publicly. I've seen nothing regarding LOTRO, while there's plenty regarding Final Fantasy

OK... I typed in Google and was immediately blown away by the sheer insanity. Property rights? Really? Exclusive deal with Disney? Within the culture itself such an attire would be of vastly different designs, no one-size-fits-all that can be properly defined. As it stands, in fantasy media, unless it's an outright rip off and intended to be this specific culture, any loose inspiration should be fair game. Oh the things you learn

[MadeofLions]

I hope it's not some kind of dumbing down.

It's not. A fresh designer was given the assignment of adjusting this instance in order to learn the basics of spawning in monsters and doing some basic drama. It's one thing to get used to the tools in a sandbox environment, but there's no replacement for interpreting an existing instance design to prove that you understand how all the pieces fit together. That the instance still functions means the designer gets an A from me!

MoL

[Bakenellan]

It's not. A fresh designer was given the assignment of adjusting this instance in order to learn the basics of spawning in monsters and doing some basic drama. It's one thing to get used to the tools in a sandbox environment, but there's no replacement for interpreting an existing instance design to prove that you understand how all the pieces fit together. That the instance still functions means the designer gets an A from me!

MoL

So much for conspiracy theories
Thank you for clearing this out. But we still miss the old instance :P

[TesalionLortus]

but there's no replacement for interpreting an existing instance design to prove that you understand how all the pieces fit together. That the instance still functions means the designer gets an A from me!

Ah, so that's it. Does something like this need to end up on live though...? As demonstrated by this thread people felt very strongly about the original instance and the good writing, but the current ending with them just standing around doesn't exactly feel organic anymore, like something is off, so it's noticeably worse. I'm sure there are mountains of some instanced dailies that nobody ever runs anymore (for obvious reasons...) so possible to tweak to heart's content in any direction and we wouldn't even know :P

[maartena]

It's not. A fresh designer was given the assignment of adjusting this instance in order to learn the basics of spawning in monsters and doing some basic drama. It's one thing to get used to the tools in a sandbox environment, but there's no replacement for interpreting an existing instance design to prove that you understand how all the pieces fit together. That the instance still functions means the designer gets an A from me!

MoL

I have not yet done the new version of this instance...... but I don't remember seeing this in any of the change/patch notes from recent months (but of course I could have missed it). So if this one slipped by the patch notes..... are there any other changes you released a new designer onto, and where are they?

[MadeofLions]

...are there any other changes you released a new designer onto, and where are they?

Our newest designers are now grizzled veterans, and made great contributions to 'Before the Shadow!'

The most common means of training a new designer (though not the most interesting), is to dump a pile of bugs on them and have them learn the process by fixing them. Learning how to understand an instance (especially an old one) and add to it is a more complicated skill, but it's a good one to develop. The thing I consider Graduation is being able to conceive of a piece of content all your own and to bring it all the way from the ideation stage through to implementation. And you get an A+ if you can do it quickly!

MoL

[maartena]

Our newest designers are now grizzled veterans, and made great contributions to 'Before the Shadow!'

The most common means of training a new designer (though not the most interesting), is to dump a pile of bugs on them and have them learn the process by fixing them. Learning how to understand an instance (especially an old one) and add to it is a more complicated skill, but it's a good one to develop. The thing I consider Graduation is being able to conceive of a piece of content all your own and to bring it all the way from the ideation stage through to implementation. And you get an A+ if you can do it quickly!

MoL

Since we're talking Forochel, bugs, and fixing them...... Did anyone ever figure out the Forochel Fog Bug(tm) that used to happen when players moved from Forochel WHILE foggy to e.g. Bree or some other place, and dragging that fog effect right along with them? I can't say that I have experienced it in some years, but I used to experience it quite frequently doing things in Forochel, and then using "return to Bree" skill to go to a vendor/vault before using a milestone to go back to Forochel.....

[istvana]

"That the instance still functions means the designer gets an A from me! "

Yes it still functions - though most of us have a slightly higher threshold than that for awarding a high grade.

Apart from any question as to why a perfectly good story was trashed - the current version just seems to fade away into nothing after the mammoth was tamed and leave us with no feeling at all as to what happened or why.

But I am a traditionalist and often don't love changes - I still mourn the loss of the Trestlespan and Trampletusk crafting quests, among others.

[MadeofLions]

why a perfectly good story was trashed

Trashed! Wow. Seems extreme!

If I didn't have too much to do already, I could certainly go in there and add plenty of follow-up to the events that happen so you can get all the denouement you want or expect, but I don't think it's worth it. Who knew a Surprise Mammoth would be less welcome than just fighting the same nobodies from a decade ago? Live and learn, I suppose.

MoL

[TesalionLortus]

Who knew a Surprise Mammoth would be less welcome than just fighting the same nobodies from a decade ago? Live and learn, I suppose.

I guess at the end of the day it's not just about "wow this thing is new" feeling (regardless of what the thing might be) but also about conveying the earlier impression narratively, so in this example if they were always beaten up and running away - there was a consequence and felt cohesive - but if there is a surprise encounter added and it just ends without any reactions or explanation whatsoever, well, it falls a bit flat.

Trashed may be too harsh here, it's such a small thing. But nevertheless a good example why any changes, improvements or reimaginations made should aspire to respect the original vision and premise.

[DavidmeetHal]

. But nevertheless a good example why any changes, improvements or reimaginations made should aspire to respect the original vision and premise.

Agreed 100%.