New Legendary Items Rework grind is worse than old system

[HolyDuckTape]

Definitely a bit late,

The whole point of the LI rework was to lessen the grind needed for your LI's but this rework has literally made the grind worse in every possible way. This needs to be addressed.

Let's compare the two shall we?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old system:

• *LI levels stopped at lv100, everything you put on it stayed forever. -Great
  -
• *LI upgrading mats were obtainable from a LOT of content/sources, from gondor to mordor to endgame content. You could quest, instance, barter and buy/auction all you needed to upgrade your LI's with little effort. All you needed was the old and reliable anfalas empowerment scrolls for your legacies and anfalas star lits for your dps/hps. -Simple
  -
• *Picking your legacies required some research but it was easy to get them. Just level up other LI's and deconstruct them to pick your desired legacy, eventually you placed them all on your one and only LI. If you wanted to replace it you could do so with replacement scrolls obtainable from questing/instancing/store/mithril. Very easy system.

Now let's move on to the new ''more efficient'' ''less grindy'' system shall we?

New system:

• *LI levels keep going up. Every tracery you get has to be replaced before every 2nd level cap otherwise your traceries will get deactivated! -yikes, a lot more grind
  -
• *Upgrading mats are not simple, you got green, purple, teal, gold upgrading items. You also got new upgrade mats EVERY level cap... The teals and golds mainly coming from high tier instancing. You have to grind an immense amount to actually get all the upgrade items for your LI's in a level cap. It starts with tens of greens to a hundred purples to tens of teals to soon tens of golds? -a LOT more grind yet again
  -
• *You barely get to pick your traceries, only in rare occasions with tokens and such. Most of the time you get RNG traceries from instances. -horrible and yet again more grind.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution?

• -Remove the max level off traceries. Once gotten, you should be able keep it forever. This change is by far the most needed of them all
  -
• -Go back to only having 1 standard upgrading item for traceries or maybe max 2. Having to instance 500 times on t3-t5 to level up 1 LI towards the end of a level cap is not ''less grind'''. I remember about an hour (or less) of throne runs giving you all the LI upgrade items for a whole level cap. It was easy and fast as cake.
  -
• -More ways to pick your desired traceries, but i guess if traceries max level is removed, this should stay unchanged.
  -
• More ways to get our upgrade mats altough this should stay unchanged if we go to 1-2 items.
  -
• -If all else fails, give us back our beautiful old LI system!

But truly, especially the need to farm traceries again before every 2nd level cap is what by FAR triggers me the most. It's so much more grind. Stop putting a max level on everything, ESPECIALLY on traceries. Having to replace your traceries with higher level ones every level cap is horribly tedious especially when you want to run multiple trait lines and multiple chars. In before; ''just buy green traceries bro''

[Pharone]

I do not agree on the level 100 thing.
I like the idea that the LI system continues on forever as the level cap increases. It means that I have something to do for the eternity of the game's existence. If it ended at level 100, then that means I lose something to strive for as soon as I get to level 100. *Poof* gone. I'm not sure why you would want less to do in a MMORPG.

I do agree on the traceries having a maximum level before they are no longer useful... kinda.
I say I kind of agree with you because I think they should still be usable above their maximum level, but I believe that it should have diminishing returns on the benefit you get from them as you level beyond the maximum level. You should be encouraged to replace them with higher level traceries, but you shouldn't be punished instantly for leveling up beyond their maximum level.

Main thing I would like to see changed about the LI system is...
The Legendary Item Reward Track window and the Legendary Item slotting window. These two windows are quite simply bad UI design. I'm sorry to the designer that spent time working on them, but they are not good.

The legendary item reward track window is the worst of the two. That window could be so much better than just a wide scroller. It's unwieldy to use. Make it a big square window rather than a rectangle, and put the rewards in a list from top to bottom with a simple button next to each one. I shouldn't have to scroll for days to get to the next claimable reward, nor should I have to scroll back and forth to figure out what is coming up that I want in the reward track. This would be so much easier to use if it was a simple top down list.

The legendary item slotting window, much like the reward track window just could be so much more user friendly if it was made wider and had two columns rather than making the user scroll down to see all of the slots.

[Kheld_GB]

The new LI system is indeed a never ending treadmill. Like Sisyphus, we will forever be rolling that boulder uphill.

[Plidak]

I found it OK.
Under lvl 131 you shouldnt bother with traceries above yellow, unless they drop.
At lvl 131 you have PLENTY of places to aquire both traceries + essences. Teal are so easy to get. For gold one you have reward track. Also few come from gundabad quest line. They are not so much better than teal ones so no need to rush. Its more like cosmetic than actual boost.
I prefer this over old system damn scroll farm.

[Elmagor]

Old LI system have RNG system too (3 major legacy, or 4, or 5). I remember we craft like 30 1st age guardian belts until we get maximum agro for our main tank

You fail to compare both systems if you never mention Imbued LI system, or what you can't use exp runes or crystals in stacks. Or you hide that to pretend what old system was better

[TesalionLortus]

I agree with the OP. I find the new system "alienating." We haven't really had next cap content yet and I haven't really used it much on any alt, but my suspicion is it's not going to be convenient, even based on what I can already experience with it. In the old system, sure, if you wanted to max, there was grind but was straightforward for casual and anything associated with weapons could have been done through the relic system. Now it's all item drops, each tied to some level ranges, and worst of all - you get these timers on every single item and they can't just automatically stack. It's... horrible. Plus yeah, UI is clunky and tiny, and confusing. I would have preferred my character to grow somewhat (even if not to max) but if it's going to be such a messy annoyance I'm literally going to throw away my LI and go back to standard weapon in Umbar and beyond :P

What you gotta consider is that not everyone is a statistical mathematician willing to look at tiny icons and constantly switch between them. The old system allowed me to somewhat engage with the system and indeed my weapon grew with me, with minimal effort from the casual (applying Anfalas Scrolls was easy and straightforward). The new one has much more items that end up in your bag tied to it, the vendor with many level ranges that you gotta choose from and learn (I would say the learning curve is big and from what I've heard there isn't even any decent tutorial in-game to learn), clunky tiny UI, and - since I don't have willingness to play mathematician, I'm not even exactly sure whether it's going to grow with me or not, I guess not really because... at some point will require switching the entire setup on it yes? Like with essences? And then repeat with lvl increases? At which point I' out and my cap lvl character will no longer use their personal "Legendary Weapon." (Imagine Frodo just tossing aside the Sting, which these were supposed to reflect, imagine that) Luckily my main is champion, so with difficulty in this game this shouldn't be too big of a problem

[Ulrek]

I like the current system so much more. To me it is easier and more flexible as levels increase than the old system. I do feel like they need to cut down on the number of upgrading mats.

[wispsong]

I do not agree on the level 100 thing.
I like the idea that the LI system continues on forever as the level cap increases. It means that I have something to do for the eternity of the game's existence. If it ended at level 100, then that means I lose something to strive for as soon as I get to level 100. *Poof* gone. I'm not sure why you would want less to do in a MMORPG.

I do agree on the traceries having a maximum level before they are no longer useful... kinda.
I say I kind of agree with you because I think they should still be usable above their maximum level, but I believe that it should have diminishing returns on the benefit you get from them as you level beyond the maximum level. You should be encouraged to replace them with higher level traceries, but you shouldn't be punished instantly for leveling up beyond their maximum level.

Main thing I would like to see changed about the LI system is...
The Legendary Item Reward Track window and the Legendary Item slotting window. These two windows are quite simply bad UI design. I'm sorry to the designer that spent time working on them, but they are not good.

The legendary item reward track window is the worst of the two. That window could be so much better than just a wide scroller. It's unwieldy to use. Make it a big square window rather than a rectangle, and put the rewards in a list from top to bottom with a simple button next to each one. I shouldn't have to scroll for days to get to the next claimable reward, nor should I have to scroll back and forth to figure out what is coming up that I want in the reward track. This would be so much easier to use if it was a simple top down list.

The legendary item slotting window, much like the reward track window just could be so much more user friendly if it was made wider and had two columns rather than making the user scroll down to see all of the slots.

The ILI for new characters was bad because crystals and SoEs were NOT in all content. Landscape questers had to do festivals on the correct character to get the crystals and the catch up was tremendous for SoEs. I like this system better and get more engaged because I actually get the traceries and the enhancement runes while I quest.

The traceries can't be upgraded beyond their lvl range, so the disabling is unnecessary punishment.

While the windows and slotting/enhancing should be made more user friendly the lvl range and different colors of both traceries and runes need to be looked at. It has become a storage nightmare and makes the system rather clunky. I would favor having just 1 enhancement rune for all levels. Overall this system is far more user friendly for landscape questers and alt characters.

[Elmagor]

I have only 1 negative with new system - new LI system half-backed, looks like devs quickly lose interest with improving this system.

Low level runes must be able to turned into high level runes and don't waste space in vault.
We don't need to have 16 BPE tracery. This move just increase RNG
Many old LI system resources wasted and don't turned into new resources

Everything else, good improvement all around system

[wardenofevernight]

Definitely a bit late,

The whole point of the LI rework was to lessen the grind needed for your LI's but this rework has literally made the grind worse in every possible way. This needs to be addressed.

Let's compare the two shall we?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Old system:

• *LI levels stopped at lv100, everything you put on it stayed forever. -Great
  -
• *LI upgrading mats were obtainable from a LOT of content/sources, from gondor to mordor to endgame content. You could quest, instance, barter and buy/auction all you needed to upgrade your LI's with little effort. All you needed was the old and reliable anfalas empowerment scrolls for your legacies and anfalas star lits for your dps/hps. -Simple
  -
• *Picking your legacies required some research but it was easy to get them. Just level up other LI's and deconstruct them to pick your desired legacy, eventually you placed them all on your one and only LI. If you wanted to replace it you could do so with replacement scrolls obtainable from questing/instancing/store/mithril. Very easy system.

Now let's move on to the new ''more efficient'' ''less grindy'' system shall we?

New system:

• *LI levels keep going up. Every tracery you get has to be replaced before every 2nd level cap otherwise your traceries will get deactivated! -yikes, a lot more grind
  -
• *Upgrading mats are not simple, you got green, purple, teal, gold upgrading items. You also got new upgrade mats EVERY level cap... The teals and golds mainly coming from high tier instancing. You have to grind an immense amount to actually get all the upgrade items for your LI's in a level cap. It starts with tens of greens to a hundred purples to tens of teals to soon tens of golds? -a LOT more grind yet again
  -
• *You barely get to pick your traceries, only in rare occasions with tokens and such. Most of the time you get RNG traceries from instances. -horrible and yet again more grind.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Solution?

• -Remove the max level off traceries. Once gotten, you should be able keep it forever. This change is by far the most needed of them all
  -
• -Go back to only having 1 standard upgrading item for traceries or maybe max 2. Having to instance 500 times on t3-t5 to level up 1 LI towards the end of a level cap is not ''less grind'''. I remember about an hour (or less) of throne runs giving you all the LI upgrade items for a whole level cap. It was easy and fast as cake.
  -
• -More ways to pick your desired traceries, but i guess if traceries max level is removed, this should stay unchanged.
  -
• More ways to get our upgrade mats altough this should stay unchanged if we go to 1-2 items.
  -
• -If all else fails, give us back our beautiful old LI system!

But truly, especially the need to farm traceries again before every 2nd level cap is what by FAR triggers me the most. It's so much more grind. Stop putting a max level on everything, ESPECIALLY on traceries. Having to replace your traceries with higher level ones every level cap is horribly tedious especially when you want to run multiple trait lines and multiple chars. In before; ''just buy green traceries bro''

Also old system - many sources of crystals and scrolls were unbound. My old kin is now dead. Most memebrs were casual who subbed for extended periods, would take a break and return. I was the most active and often grouped outside kin, so when my kinmates returned I could gift them scrolls / crystals or even gold to buy from AH. Now they log-in - look at the new system, stay for a day or two - and say "no way I'm subbing to grind for ages before I can join in at end" and I have no way of helping them out quickly.

I can (sort of) understand the desire by developers for some sort of reset of traceries when level cap goes up - although I'm not a necessarily a fan of them expiring. Surely a decent middleground would be for all traceries after their "expiry level" to return to uncommon level - then your LI is still functional and you can upgarde to rare, imcomparabe, legendary traceries if you'd like to.

[istvana]

The old system was good when it started but evolved over quite a few years into a much criticized grindfest. That may happen to the new system as well but so far, though certainly not perfect, it is an improvement in almost all respects.

[Fadil]

Also old system - many sources of crystals and scrolls were unbound. My old kin is now dead. Most memebrs were casual who subbed for extended periods, would take a break and return. I was the most active and often grouped outside kin, so when my kinmates returned I could gift them scrolls / crystals or even gold to buy from AH. Now they log-in - look at the new system, stay for a day or two - and say "no way I'm subbing to grind for ages before I can join in at end" and I have no way of helping them out quickly.

The whole premise of the new LI system was that you would get the mats needed (runes/ traceries) while playing the game (as opposed to having to grind dailies or festivals for them).
As such I disagree 100% with the OP: the new system works.
Not just for your level 140(s) alts, I enjoy leveling alts and I can use the traceries/ runes that drop from quests, barter some traceries at the various rep vendors and so on, and as such
no longer have to spend a single day grinding anything for my LIs, while I level from 0 to 140.

At max level you get runes/ traceries every instance you play, from mission wrapper quests, epic quests provide you with traceries/ runes, and ofc through the reward system, to name a few ways.
I have thousands of each rune, and I didnt grind a second for them.
The Reward tracks provides you with enough teal/ gold tokens to be able to pick the traceries you want/ need, and frankly most of us are struggling where to leave all
those traceries/ runes/ ancient script boxes.:P
None of this involves any grind.

BUT: if you basically create a system where mats are obtained by playing the game, that does mean that people who dont play the game and return have a lot of catching up to do.

Ofc that was also true under the old system (unless they were lucky enough to have a friend who could help them).

I dont really know a solution for this other than that people who return start by putting in "cheap" traceries and then by playing the game earn the better ones.
The Reward Track will certainly help them with that.

[SerowLOTRO]

You know what's even better? Remove all the upgrading mat requirements.

Just level the LIs/traceries using generic IXP, like how we level our characters using generic EXP without needing a special item to reach the next level cap.
Then there's no grind, everyone doing anything post-50 can take part in it, people who want to max our their LIs fast can buy +IXP scrolls from the store, and everyone can create as many generic or situational LIs as they like depending on their gaming needs.

[auximenes]

I think the new LI system is overall much less grindy and it allows you to get the LI you want much easier. Getting a maxed LI is still just as grindy as before, but for the rest of us who don't need/want a maxed LI it's definitely less grindy.

[DoRonRon]

With a system of shared Currency Caps and a shared Reward Track among your characters on a server there is a "ideal" number of characters to get their needs covered, without grind and a good strategy. Set your sights appropriately? Purple or Teal or Gold. Or save the Golds for your favourite character?

After the 101 RT stage you aren't gaining any of the choicer items of the 100 portion.

If you have only two or three characters to provision at the Gold Standard you could mostly let it wash over you unconcerned but if you want more characters and more build options than that you have very much more to do. Easy mode if slotting anything you come across in the course of your journey without so much thought.

Suits you Sir; if you have lower standards or only a couple of characters to fully gear. If you don't do the maths then you don't get to see where the system is failing you. A shared 10k Ancient Script cap? Not for my or pretty much anyone's needs - the means to cover the coming shortfall in place if you were on it from the start, having done some maths. If raiding on higher tiers you are locked into the RNG game anyway.

Ill Omens and the Spring festival had throwing every character you had at them as the means to sway things your way. They have provided the majority of my Gold Tokens - the ultimate for divorcing ourselves from the disappointment of the RNG. Just like the festivals of the past that provided the choice to gain bound Star-lit Crystals and unbound Essence Reclamation Scrolls for the future, if you knew about it at the time and weren't drawn to the "trinkets and fluff" on offer instead.

[WorrBinpike]

I for myself was stopping playing when the new system came in, i hated it, i loved the old LI and ILI System. After a year i came back and watched some Videos on youtube, wasnt clearly aware when to start with building a new LI. Shortly before the new system was integrated, I built a lot of third age level 70 weapons, i think as long as they dont change the system with acient scripts i could build A LOT OF new Weapons for all of my alts without needing the Reward track (at least with purple stuff).

Once you've built a few weapons the system is really easy and it's even fun to build one because you can choose which traceries you want.

I highly doubt the old system is coming back, so its worthless to discuss that.

The only thing i would change in this system:

Each character should have their own reward track.

The Reward Track is really worse like it is. I was at level 100 approx 2 weeks after it has resetted. Now i'm at 180, every day i open 20-30 chests, and after a session i'm again back to 170-180. Sure sometimes i get a gold tracery mark out of it, which is nice, but mostly ancient scripts (which i also could throw away).

Also i would like to see the max level of traceries removed.

[Pewpewmidget]

Old LI system have RNG system too (3 major legacy, or 4, or 5). I remember we craft like 30 1st age guardian belts until we get maximum agro for our main tank

You fail to compare both systems if you never mention Imbued LI system, or what you can't use exp runes or crystals in stacks. Or you hide that to pretend what old system was better

I read your comment before finish reading this thread and already had a facepalm moment.
Do you not remember what I said about both LI systems and that there was far less RNG?
The fact that you crafted ~30 First Age belts for one item just shows that you did not truly understand how deconstructing worked.
You were able to pick and choose whichever legacy you wanted from a third age belt, and it didn't matter how you acquired them.
The fact that third age belts were also bartered at the skirmish camp meant that you could get them at ease and pick n choose the belt with the legacies you wanted.
I literally never had to worry about the RNG as you were able to pull lvl 65 legacies and put them onto 75's and then 85's and 95's and 100's.
I also had the legacies I wanted on the random legendary items that I have looted so I never had to do what I mentioned the line above either.
You just had to get those LIs to lvl 30+ then deconstruct them then you had your legacies.

The only grind I recall having with the old LI system was finding Anfalas Star-lit Crystals, Empowerment Scrolls and Remembrance Crystals.
Also of which you could buy them with the gold that you could easily acquire or trade for them.
Or even the methods I've mentioned doing myself.

TL;DR, The old LI grind was a lot quicker than the new grind
despite the fact that you are being spoonfed uncommon and rare enhancement runes from daily quests
incomparable and legendary enhancement runes from the reward track along with tracery selection tokens.
The kicker is that you hardly get enough from one season to max out about half of just one LI but everyone is hailing the RT as their Lord and Savior.
The old LI system set you up for up until they switched the LI systems.
Some old items still give you a consolation prize.

[Pewpewmidget]

The ILI for new characters was bad because crystals and SoEs were NOT in all content. Landscape questers had to do festivals on the correct character to get the crystals and the catch up was tremendous for SoEs. I like this system better and get more engaged because I actually get the traceries and the enhancement runes while I quest.

The traceries can't be upgraded beyond their lvl range, so the disabling is unnecessary punishment.

Let me remind you that the festival grind was only a optional way to get star-lit crystals, as was mithril coins.
You could have also made the grind shorter just by buying them from others with gold since gold was never a problem.
Barter for something valuable, like scrolls of empowerment, for use or to trade for star-lit crystals.
My point here is that we had far more options on how to obtain our stuff than the current system.
Don't mention tracery tokens via festival wrappers. That is literally the same thing as doing festivals for star-lit crystals.

Anyway, I agree with what you said about the scrolls and crystals. I don't remember getting them outside or prior to Gondor aside from a few epic quests.
I also agree with what you said about the traceries.

[Pewpewmidget]

Low level runes must be able to turned into high level runes and don't waste space in vault.
We don't need to have 16 BPE tracery. This move just increase RNG
Many old LI system resources wasted and don't turned into new resources

There should be only one enhancement rune and it should persist through each level range to avoid wasting vault space.
I agree with the rest of what you said that I quoted.

In my honest opinion, traceries should never expire.
If you get a tracery at level 50, you should be able to keep using that same tracery at 140.
I am fine with extra tracery slots unlocking at certain levels.

I mentioned this in my previous posts; your tracery bonuses should scale with tracery level, just like the old LIs. Not just the stats.

[Pewpewmidget]

Also old system - many sources of crystals and scrolls were unbound. My old kin is now dead. Most memebrs were casual who subbed for extended periods, would take a break and return. I was the most active and often grouped outside kin, so when my kinmates returned I could gift them scrolls / crystals or even gold to buy from AH. Now they log-in - look at the new system, stay for a day or two - and say "no way I'm subbing to grind for ages before I can join in at end" and I have no way of helping them out quickly.

Everything being bound and not being able to help others, sell excess stuff, buy stuff, etc, is also demotivating me from playing endgame.
Some people do not have friends or any luck getting into (successful) t2+ runs, like myself, in order to get the gear, essences, LI upgrades in order to progress.
I am aware of that I can solo for yellow/purple and deed for cyan runes as well as getting them and traceries from the RT. That is beside the point.

[Pewpewmidget]

The old system was good when it started but evolved over quite a few years into a much criticized grindfest. That may happen to the new system as well but so far, though certainly not perfect, it is an improvement in almost all respects.

The current system hasn't been out for more than one cap yet.
How long will it be before you are saying these things about the current system?

[Pewpewmidget]

As someone who has voiced against the current LI system, made comparisons and valid arguments, I agree with the OP.
Good luck trying to get people to see that this grind is worse even though the system itself is good.
SSG took away our ability to openly trade with others and the RNG for the desired traceries is much worse than getting the desired legacies.
SSG also took away our ability to craft relics and LIs while never bothering to repurpose the recipes they ultimately decided to remove.
The only craftable tracery recipes are for Gundabad tier only and are single use....

Edit: SSG ruined a perfectly good system that Turbine set up by not making quests reward LI upgrades until it was too late.
It wasn't until we were well into the Minas Morgul era before anyone addressed the shortage of LI upgrades given via quests.
They did good by adding motes and embers barters for scrolls and crystals but I feel like it was already too late.

If we were given sufficient amount of upgrades throughout landscape questing or instances then I feel like the old system never would have gotten out of hand.
I get that the bonuses scaled higher than what was intended. That could have been cut down like they did in the past with the traceries.
They also could have made it so imbuing started as low as level 50. SSG could have done a lot more to save a failing system but we ended up with what we have now...

[WorrBinpike]

What i also love to see in the new LI system is, get the weapons back to the crafters, remove them from then vendor.

[Halphast]

I don't understand how anyone who got deep into both systems could prefer the old way, but I guess it exists.

My only complaint with the new system is tracery expiration. I wish it weren't this way, but it is and I get why.

[Fadil]

As someone who has voiced against the current LI system, made comparisons and valid arguments, I agree with the OP.

I'm glad you think you made valid arguments.../chuckle

Sorry, the only argument you ever made was that you were one of the people who farmed Rako and circumvented the grind.
You even went as far as to suggest that the 95% of players who didnt know that trick or didnt know how to do that were dumb, and should
have just asked you for help.
A system where a tiny handful of players get stinking rich by finding a little loophole and then selling scrolls/ crystals for tens of thousands of gold to other players, isnt good,
decent or in any way, shape or form better than the current system.

And just because YOU were able to circumvent the grind, doesnt mean the grind didnt exist for 95% of players who didnt game the system.

But the two or three players on the mbs who dont like the current system arent going to bring back that godfersaken grind for the 99,9% of other players, so whatever.