Who do Devs listen to for awful avatar changes and the like?

[wispsong]

More options = more players. More players = more money.

As for players who are so offended by the idea of a bearded woman that they will leave the game, I'm not sure that's really a net loss. It's a fantasy MMO, filled with orcs and dragons and minstrels singing things to death.

Every player leaving the game is a loss because there is no guarantee that that new player will stay or even come due to this. It's a fantasy MMO based on a book concerning northern mythology which pretty much describes the characters and races involved. Changing the appearance to resemble modern day NYC goes directly against that and is very offending. One can only hope that players have enough sense to stay away from too obvious modern options.

I don't think anybody ever asked for modern hair, just more options fitting for ME, hair headpieces because we can't see hair under hats etc, and better rendering (more alive). More options, yes...modern day options...no.

[auximenes]

In the early days of the game I'd be much more defensive about staying as solidly by-the-books as possible but not anymore.

[Elmagor]

In the early days of the game I'd be much more defensive about staying as solidly by-the-books as possible but not anymore.

I don't see any changes in Tolkien work between 2008 and 2023 make that happen. Middle-earth stay the same, and most of players here consider that as negative change or not welcomed change. Maybe you can see something what no one can see?

[Arnenna]

I like the expanded feature. There are parts I wouldn't ever use of course, but in general, there is a lot that I will use. I really like some of the tribal looking hairstyles and the eye enhancements make a character look much more alive.

For anyone offended by some of the changes, avoid the feature. And don't worry about seeing those features while you are out adventuring, you can already see magic hobbits, and very feminine dwarves, so this shouldn't be any great shock.

Nice job SSG, I like it, and well done on wider representation. That was the goal and you made the mark..

[Jakreal]

Lower part of Moria. Hobbit npcs everywhere outside of the shire, Earth-kin, Brawlers, dwardens, hobbit Lms.

Where’s the uproar then?

[zipfile]

Where’s the uproar then?

who

[Karou32]

Lower part of Moria. Hobbit npcs everywhere outside of the shire, Earth-kin, Brawlers, dwardens, hobbit Lms.

Where’s the uproar then?

1. "Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."

2. The first time Bilbo talked to Gandalf, he referenced other Hobbits, mostly Tooks that went on their adventures because of him.

3. The Earth-kin are based in the Ogres, which are mentioned in the Hobbit.

4. Helm Hammerhand

5. A warden is someone that patrols the outer reaches of an area. Nothing wrong with that.

6. An LM is a keeper and preserver of knowledge. Bilbo was one of them, same is hinted for Pippin when he came into contact with Gondor.

No need for an uproar.

[Neinda]

Thank you SSG. The changes are long overdue. While not every style will suit everyone, the changes allow us the option to customize in new ways. This will make Middle Earth an inviting place for all sorts of people.

[DavidmeetHal]

Like I said in another thread, I’m ok with the hair styles and such, but the beards on girls is just plain stupid.

Yeah I said it. Stupid.

[Elmagor]

Thank you SSG. The changes are long overdue. While not every style will suit everyone, the changes allow us the option to customize in new ways. This will make Middle Earth an inviting place for all sorts of people.

How not having female character with beard prevent Middle Earth from being an inviting place for all sorts of people? Middle Earth just looks more like other MMOs - WoW, TESO, Arachage.... they don't have their own styles, their own lore and their own history. And what sort of people we will see if they want this to play Lotro? I can't imagine someone considering what Lotro not good enough for him to try, but now when they introduce such changes, that person decide what now it's time to play Lotro.

[Neinda]

How not having female character with beard prevent Middle Earth from being an inviting place for all sorts of people? Middle Earth just looks more like other MMOs - WoW, TESO, Arachage.... they don't have their own styles, their own lore and their own history. And what sort of people we will see if they want this to play Lotro? I can't imagine someone considering what Lotro not good enough for him to try, but now when they introduce such changes, that person decide what now it's time to play Lotro.

The beards are not my cup of tea but I suspect this is a coding issue. It is probably easier to have one table for male/female avatars and thus the beards are selectable by all. People will run around with their beards for a bit and then get bored and move on to something else.

[Arabani]

I hope developers realize how many conflincts between players some parts of the change will provoke, leading to CS tickets, bans, anger, frustration and unltimately less players and bad reputaion about the game and community.

Do not do that, guys, save yourself some trouble.

[Jakreal]

who

ASKED?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

1. "Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, but I will bring no report to darken the light of day."

2. The first time Bilbo talked to Gandalf, he referenced other Hobbits, mostly Tooks that went on their adventures because of him.

3. The Earth-kin are based in the Ogres, which are mentioned in the Hobbit.

4. Helm Hammerhand

5. A warden is someone that patrols the outer reaches of an area. Nothing wrong with that.

6. An LM is a keeper and preserver of knowledge. Bilbo was one of them, same is hinted for Pippin when he came into contact with Gondor.

No need for an uproar.

1. They look like half-life aliens. Nope

2. Inspired him from bree-land. Not hobbits found in every spot on middle earth. Nope

3. Dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Nope

4. Dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Nope

5. Dwarf wardens dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Nope

6. Dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Lore masters cast fire/lightning spells. Bilbo does not. Nope

Uproar needed.

[Karou32]

ASKED?

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL



1. They look like half-life aliens. Nope

2. Inspired him from bree-land. Not hobbits found in every spot on middle earth. Nope

3. Dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Nope

4. Dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Nope

5. Dwarf wardens dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Nope

6. Dont exist in the lore at all or are ever referenced. Lore masters cast fire/lightning spells. Bilbo does not. Nope

Uproar needed.

The fact that their interpretation of the Nameless Things doesn't suit your needs, doesn't concern some of us at all. You don't like it, we like it. If you're such a lore purist, that everything from lore-friendly and below seems lore-breaking to you, you shouldn't be here from the first place. Every thing you mentioned falls into the realm of plausibility and has a basis in lore even by extrapolation, though you're so dismissive that it ain't worth it continuing the "discussion" with "Yesses" and "Nopes".

Have a nice day!


I

[TesalionLortus]

The fact that their interpretation of the Nameless Things doesn't suit your needs, doesn't concern some of us at all. You don't like it, we like it. If you're such a lore purist, that everything from lore-friendly and below seems lore-breaking to you, you shouldn't be here from the first place. Every thing you mentioned falls into the realm of plausibility and has a basis in lore even by extrapolation, though you're so dismissive that it ain't worth it continuing the "discussion" with "Yesses" and "Nopes".

Exactly. That's just how it is.

[Radhruin_EU]

The fact that their interpretation of the Nameless Things doesn't suit your needs, doesn't concern some of us at all. You don't like it, we like it. If you're such a lore purist, that everything from lore-friendly and below seems lore-breaking to you, you shouldn't be here from the first place. Every thing you mentioned falls into the realm of plausibility and has a basis in lore even by extrapolation, though you're so dismissive that it ain't worth it continuing the "discussion" with "Yesses" and "Nopes".

Just no. None of that really falls into the realm of plausibility.

- FoS being a sci-fi freakshow that looks like it should be Space Marines dealing with it rather than our characters, and you think that's plausible in the context? LOL. And it's hardly being a purist to say so.

- the game mechanics take no real account of hobbits being tiny and the silly exploits it lets them do follow on from that. Not even remotely plausible.

- ogres were a solitary throwaway reference in The Hobbit and might not even be real, even in that book's more fairy-tale context (since Bilbo was just thinking of stories), and are mentioned nowhere else (not in LOTR, not in the Sil). Implausible as a result, made up out of whole cloth.

- Helm Hammerhand was a lone, vengeful madman who stalked men in the dark and icy cold of the Long Winter and who was huge and extremely strong, so hardly surprising he could kill men with his bare hands. What has that got to do with a silly class that goes around wearing 'battle-gauntlets' and punching people? Nothing. No plausibility to it at all. Even worse that they let hobbits in on the act. We're led to understand that if you were to kick a Troll you'd break your foot, so what does that suggest about punching them? The Brawler class was daft even by game standards, a late addition when they'd given up really trying and were just doing 'whatever' to get more money.

- Dwarves using spears and throwing javelins? Since when? Neither would be very handy for them.

- and last but not least: loremasters in the books are just people who know stuff. Not people who use any sort of magic. And LOTR is absolutely clear that hobbits didn't study any form of magic, which was why the game didn't let them in on that for all that time. So for you to equivocate between Bilbo being a loremaster (because he was very into Elvish literature!) and hobbits doing magic is just plain silly. Hobbit LMs are another example of SSG just doing 'whatever'.

And that was why you got all the 'nopes'. Here, have some more.

[Jakreal]

The fact that their interpretation of the Nameless Things doesn't suit your needs, doesn't concern some of us at all. You don't like it, we like it. If you're such a lore purist, that everything from lore-friendly and below seems lore-breaking to you, you shouldn't be here from the first place. Every thing you mentioned falls into the realm of plausibility and has a basis in lore even by extrapolation, though you're so dismissive that it ain't worth it continuing the "discussion" with "Yesses" and "Nopes".

Have a nice day!


I

The fact that you seem to think I am serious about lore tells me you didnt read anything before my post.

Let me explain the joke:
People in here complaining so much about their beloved lore.
Me giving examples of the game breaking lore they dont complain about.



Have a nice day!

JKLMNOP

[TesalionLortus]

- FoS being a sci-fi freakshow that looks like it should be Space Marines dealing with it rather than our characters, and you think that's plausible in the context? LOL. And it's hardly being a purist to say so.

I don't intend to get into this (again lol) but seriously, is a little amusing you don't find this plausible for our characters to deal with but they can go around and singlehandedly kill trolls and ologs on steroids. Short story short I like the Nameless, any of the similarities don't bother me (and that's just only regarding one, two models of those, not all) and any of the alternative suggestions about how they could have been done I ever heard were... not enough alien to Arda (or rather, LOTRO's version of it, including all the things that already debuted prior to Rift content). But they're supposed to be, alien to it, a strange nameless anomaly.

[Elmagor]

The fact that you seem to think I am serious about lore tells me you didnt read anything before my post.

Let me explain the joke:
People in here complaining so much about their beloved lore.
Me giving examples of the game breaking lore they dont complain about.



Have a nice day!

JKLMNOP

Hobbits live in different places during their journey. Brawler inpired not only by Helm Hammerhand, but also by Tulkas himself. Working with nature and understanding it (Radagast) have nothing with using lightning and fireballs (Gandalf). Galadriel can destroy Dol Guldur with one phrase, can Bilbo Baggins do same thing? Of course not. Maybe you need learn more about lore before you trying to use "lore breaking" things as example.

[Karou32]

Just no. None of that really falls into the realm of plausibility.

- FoS being a sci-fi freakshow that looks like it should be Space Marines dealing with it rather than our characters, and you think that's plausible in the context? LOL. And it's hardly being a purist to say so.

- the game mechanics take no real account of hobbits being tiny and the silly exploits it lets them do follow on from that. Not even remotely plausible.

- ogres were a solitary throwaway reference in The Hobbit and might not even be real, even in that book's more fairy-tale context (since Bilbo was just thinking of stories), and are mentioned nowhere else (not in LOTR, not in the Sil). Implausible as a result, made up out of whole cloth.

- Helm Hammerhand was a lone, vengeful madman who stalked men in the dark and icy cold of the Long Winter and who was huge and extremely strong, so hardly surprising he could kill men with his bare hands. What has that got to do with a silly class that goes around wearing 'battle-gauntlets' and punching people? Nothing. No plausibility to it at all. Even worse that they let hobbits in on the act. We're led to understand that if you were to kick a Troll you'd break your foot, so what does that suggest about punching them? The Brawler class was daft even by game standards, a late addition when they'd given up really trying and were just doing 'whatever' to get more money.

- Dwarves using spears and throwing javelins? Since when? Neither would be very handy for them.

- and last but not least: loremasters in the books are just people who know stuff. Not people who use any sort of magic. And LOTR is absolutely clear that hobbits didn't study any form of magic, which was why the game didn't let them in on that for all that time. So for you to equivocate between Bilbo being a loremaster (because he was very into Elvish literature!) and hobbits doing magic is just plain silly. Hobbit LMs are another example of SSG just doing 'whatever'.

And that was why you got all the 'nopes'. Here, have some more.

My dear Radhruin_EU, when I was speaking of "lore purists", you were one I had in mind. I don't care about your interpretation of the source material, which for certain isn't better than ours, as you don't care about ours. If you don't like FoS or you find it a "freakshow", good for you. The fact that the Ogres were a throwaway reference don't make them less legit and certainly not implausible. The fact that Helm Hammerhand did what he did is exactly the plausibility needed for the Brawler class to work. Who is to say that our character isn't as strong? The same goes for Dwarves and spears and javelins. Regarding the LMs, they're not simply people who know stuff, they're seekers of knowledge, which equates to power in Middle-Earth. Hobbits and Men might not use magic directly, they can use it though through artefacts, which LMs directly seek.

Sometimes I truly wonder how you're still in this game, really, as you disagree with almost every interpretation of Turbine and SSG. Anyway, seriously now. We'll never reach a conclusion, you will never agree with me, I'll never agree with you, so there's no need to continue. I return the "Nopes" back to you and I hope you have a great day!

[Radhruin_EU]

I don't intend to get into this (again lol) but seriously, is a little amusing you don't find this plausible for our characters to deal with but they can go around and singlehandedly kill trolls and ologs on steroids. Short story short I like the Nameless, any of the similarities don't bother me (and that's just only regarding one, two models of those, not all) and any of the alternative suggestions about how they could have been done I ever heard were... not enough alien to Arda (or rather, LOTRO's version of it, including all the things that already debuted prior to Rift content). But they're supposed to be, alien to it, a strange nameless anomaly.

What has that got to do with some monsters being styled in a way that reminds many people of science fiction, when it's a traditionally-minded fantasy? It's an out-of-context thing. When that first came out there were a ton of people who commented about that. As per an early screenshot it looked simply bizarre to have a hobbit going up against something that looked like some Chaos thing in dire need of being purged with fire, bolter and chainsword rather than just being stabbed a bit

[Radhruin_EU]

My dear Radhruin_EU, when I was speaking of "lore purists", you were one I had in mind. I don't care about your interpretation of the source material, which for certain isn't better than ours, as you don't care about ours. If you don't like FoS or you find it a "freakshow", good for you. The fact that the Ogres were a throwaway reference don't make them less legit and certainly not implausible. The fact that Helm Hammerhand did what he did is exactly the plausibility needed for the Brawler class to work. Who is to say that our character isn't as strong? The same goes for Dwarves and spears and javelins. Regarding the LMs, they're not simply people who know stuff, they're seekers of knowledge, which equates to power in Middle-Earth. Hobbits and Men might not use magic directly, they can use it though through artefacts, which LMs directly seek.

Sometimes I truly wonder how you're still in this game, really, as you disagree with almost every interpretation of Turbine and SSG. Anyway, seriously now. We'll never reach a conclusion, you will never agree with me, I'll never agree with you, so there's no need to continue. I return the "Nopes" back to you and I hope you have a great day!

This clearly shows you'll just say any old thing, I wouldn't call that an interpretation and at least mine is based on knowing the books, rather than just being all "the game did it so it must be right".

Like that ogre thing: from real-world folk tales we have some concept of what an ogre is meant to be, give or take, but naturally it's all just stories. The same could be true in Middle-earth: they had stories about things that weren't real in the context of their own world, just like we do (the Cats of Queen Beruthiel were one such, just a fairy-tale for kids that had gone on to become proverbial). Now sure you can take a throwaway reference from whatever hobbit stories Bilbo was thinking of literally if you really want to, but given that it's mentioned absolutely nowhere else even in The Hobbit itself (and never mind LOTR's more serious take on things, where giants have been quietly dropped - there are no giants in the Sil, either) it hardly makes it plausible to turn that into an entire race of beings. We know hobbits were more than capable of just making stuff up to amuse themselves, or taking other people's stories and elaborating on them.

The idea of *anybody* going around on a battlefield making a point of punching people is 100% a silly game thing and tellingly the game didn't entertain it at all for a very long time indeed. Helm Hammerhand didn't go around wearing outsize gauntlets and punching people in battle either - is that what you call an interpretation, taking stuff out of context and turning it into nonsense? And did my mention of hobbit Brawlers go over your head as well? That alone shows what a joke it is lore-wise and that 'battle-gauntlet' business is just the icing on the cake. The whole thing's cheesy even by game standards, a late addition, and you're doing yourself no favours by trying to pretend otherwise.

And again you're entirely wrong about LMs. A loremaster is just someone who shows mastery of some sort of lore and nothing more. Knowledge is *not* power in Middle-earth in that sense (Tolkien said it wasn't, as he imagined it - magic was innate, not to be acquired just by learning). You've just made up that thing about artefacts to suit yourself, as well. The game originally had it not only that hobbits didn't do magic (because Tolkien flat out said they didn't) but that even the (completely invented) RK wasn't available to Men either, because they didn't have the gift for it. That was the status quo for a very long time in the game and it was only much, much later that they retconned it, not for any reason that made sense internally to the game (it broke the game's own lore!) but just because they needed the money.

So you can have all the nopes back again, plus some more for your trouble - it's not just lore you're vague on, but how the game got to be the way it is as well

[Hoppendi]

Seems to be the only places in forums where people talk about and the discussion took a direction i wont join.

But if a dev sees this: I'm sad you are taking away legacy appearance (pre 2017) for race of man (and for possible future the ohter races could get such as well) ...
All i saw from others were discussions about if female beards are ok and if this is necessary... some argue everyone can play and customize the way the like - well at least not those that liked the first character models the most. When the update comes out many of my characters get forced updated and i dont like the 2017+ updated textures so the appearance will change and not for the good. Literally every update in the last year that i noticed had bad news for me and my play style or what i like in Lotro (mentioned more of this in other threads).

Forcing players to update (and downgrade) their character visuals is such a stupid move. Most people seemed to like the 2017+ avatars but not everyone. So again every fan of older/legacy stuff gets sacrificed so that "new players/everyone can customize the way they want" (not a exact quote). But reality this character look force changes can be really bad - it happend on another mmo i played and i reduced my playtime alot - mostly because it's not the character i created and wanted to have. Sad this is happening in Lotro as well.

Another critique i want to bring in: I've seen like a 100 sliders for minor facial changes of all kinds. But all males or females are the same height and the body still only has one slider for a forced proportion. Also it feels like focus lays in mainstream political acceptance represented within Lotro but the looks of some lesser known cultures still seem to be not doable from what I've seen - starting with different kinds of noses (which differ alot between countries) it seems to be mostly oriantated to western countries but maybe it just wasn't visible in the 2 videos i've seen.
Also more hair style diversity would be good - even for the other races and if possible different hair lenghts/volumes of the same style, since hair is literally the most seen feature of all give the size and color.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

I don't think the changes are awful, I quite like them honestly, however while they look nice and done alright in my opinion, Its doesn't feel like Middle-Earth at all, its the wrong place for it to me, though a few hairstyles imo are just fine. also Race of Man Female with beards is even more off for Middle-Earth.

I would've rather seen them using different varieties of Medieval hairstyles as theres plenty to base it off of, then using modern fantasy style.

[auximenes]

I don't see any changes in Tolkien work between 2008 and 2023 make that happen. Middle-earth stay the same, and most of players here consider that as negative change or not welcomed change. Maybe you can see something what no one can see?

My point is that this is not a new game. Opening up more options for character creation is a way to potentially get some new customers. Yes, it might alienate some but it appears SSG have decided that we're mature enough to handle the new options.

What has that got to do with some monsters being styled in a way that reminds many people of science fiction, when it's a traditionally-minded fantasy?

I love the Alien franchise but that made it ever more off-putting to find the Nameless and their lairs full of eggs so obviously inspired by that franchise. It still feels like a big missed opportunity for the Devs.