Who do Devs listen to for awful avatar changes and the like?

[SniperCT]

Seems to be the only places in forums where people talk about and the discussion took a direction i wont join.

But if a dev sees this: I'm sad you are taking away legacy appearance (pre 2017) for race of man (and for possible future the ohter races could get such as well) ...
All i saw from others were discussions about if female beards are ok and if this is necessary... some argue everyone can play and customize the way the like - well at least not those that liked the first character models the most. When the update comes out many of my characters get forced updated and i dont like the 2017+ updated textures so the appearance will change and not for the good. Literally every update in the last year that i noticed had bad news for me and my play style or what i like in Lotro (mentioned more of this in other threads).

Forcing players to update (and downgrade) their character visuals is such a stupid move. Most people seemed to like the 2017+ avatars but not everyone. So again every fan of older/legacy stuff gets sacrificed so that "new players/everyone can customize the way they want" (not a exact quote). But reality this character look force changes can be really bad - it happend on another mmo i played and i reduced my playtime alot - mostly because it's not the character i created and wanted to have. Sad this is happening in Lotro as well.

Another critique i want to bring in: I've seen like a 100 sliders for minor facial changes of all kinds. But all males or females are the same height and the body still only has one slider for a forced proportion. Also it feels like focus lays in mainstream political acceptance represented within Lotro but the looks of some lesser known cultures still seem to be not doable from what I've seen - starting with different kinds of noses (which differ alot between countries) it seems to be mostly oriantated to western countries but maybe it just wasn't visible in the 2 videos i've seen.
Also more hair style diversity would be good - even for the other races and if possible different hair lenghts/volumes of the same style, since hair is literally the most seen feature of all give the size and color.

It's been 6 years, its likely that retaining the older appearance option is actively holding back improving the game. WoW did this eventually too, took away the option to display the legacy models. Like I doubt these are at all decisions made without a lot of thought and looking at a lot of data (like how many players actually uncheck that box)

As for height/proportion keep in mind they have to make sure the thousands and thousands of armor pieces will still be able to fit on the player models. They'd have to tweak them for every race/gender combination or make them scale well, which is a herculean task. I'd like to see it too but I don't expect it any time soon.

[SniperCT]

My point is that this is not a new game. Opening up more options for character creation is a way to potentially get some new customers. Yes, it migh alienate some but it appears SSG have decided that we're mature enough to handle the new options.


I love the Alien franchise but that made it ever more off-putting to find the Nameless and their lairs full of eggs so obviously inspired by that franchise. It still feels like a big missed opportunity for the Devs.

Yeah, these changes are most certrainly to entice and keep new players. Without new players, this game will cease to exist.

As for the Nameless, they feel lovecraftian to me, that creeping horror and madness, just the sort of Morgothian horrors to have survived the ages deep below. I loved them. They're horrors, terrors of the deep that send a chill down the spine just being near them.

[Radhruin_EU]

Yeah, these changes are most certrainly to entice and keep new players. Without new players, this game will cease to exist.

The usual generalisations... since when has character appearance alone been a significant draw?

As for the Nameless, they feel lovecraftian to me, that creeping horror and madness, just the sort of Morgothian horrors to have survived the ages deep below. I loved them. They're horrors, terrors of the deep that send a chill down the spine just being near them.

Maybe in a passing comic-book alien sort of way but otherwise no, if you can stand and fight them with nothing more than something pointy then Lovecraftian is the last thing they are. Also the monsters are more-or-less humanoid, whereas that (or even being bilaterally symmetrical, for that matter) is entirely optional for Lovecraft's critters and elder beings. As is having any fixed form at all, in the case of shoggoths. Or existing in the usual three dimensions. Or even being visible to the human eye. So you're really stretching a point there; a bit like when people throw the word 'Orwellian' around casually when something's a bit authoritarian, when truly Orwellian stuff would be infinitely worse.

[TesalionLortus]

Maybe in a passing comic-book alien sort of way but otherwise no, if you can stand and fight them with nothing more than something pointy then Lovecraftian is the last thing they are. Also the monsters are more-or-less humanoid, whereas that (or even being bilaterally symmetrical, for that matter) is entirely optional for Lovecraft's critters and elder beings. As is having any fixed form at all, in the case of shoggoths. Or existing in the usual three dimensions. Or even being visible to the human eye. So you're really stretching a point there; a bit like when people throw the word 'Orwellian' around casually when something's a bit authoritarian, when truly Orwellian stuff would be infinitely worse.

They wouldn't ever be designed/framed as manifestations/non-three-dimensional given the game being an mmo and it needs you... to kill things with a sword. But you can describe something as giving off the X vibes even if it's just the looks and overall feel. But there is more than jus that. They do have something "ultra-dimensional" about them, with all these void portals, which lead to some mysterious "Kingdom(s) of the Nameless" (maybe) and that entire Shadowed Cave did not seem like... a real place. More like you've transitioned into some ultra-dimensional fanfic of this guy but really just in a lone cave never touched by dwarves (so anything dwarven in there wouldn't exactly be real image perhaps). And Throkhar seems to be in another league entirely, with this consumption of the world thing and mysterious Nameless prophecies that mention the Mother. If anything, comes closer to Ungoliant and Ungoliant wasn't exactly "of this world" either. Not entirely clear but even "of darkness" does not exactly convey an easily comprehensible origin/plane of existence in Tolkien's legendarium

[Systoliker]

I believe removing the influence of heritage on appearance will make the game feel less individual instead of more. I really like the update with all the new sliders, although I would propose to take everything added and sort them into the different heritages, I think espeically the darker skin tones and the hair would fit perfectly into Gondor for instance. As previously proposed addding Umbar or Harad and Rhun to represent different ethnic groups would give the game a more diverse feeling.

If you think about it (at least from the perspective of a european) our different backgrounds and roots is what makes us so intersting. I have so many friends having roots in different countries and it is what makes them feel special. It is what makes me feel special when I get to know new cultures. The most interesting conversations I have with humans from different cultures are discussions about our cultural differences.

However coming back to middle earth, I think it is a very great idea to expand upon the character creator, but it is not to make everyone look the same no matter the chosen background. When I make a character of Gondor, I don't want him to look like me. (For that I would go with a hobbit or a man of Rohan or Bree), I want my character to look like a man of Gondor, so do I wish for the characters of the game and other players around me too. I love this aspect of the game that when you read the descriptions carefully you can easily identify what these other players like to represent. Therefore my suggestion was take everything you added, add it to the game, though please sort the options into the different origins. Add some new if needed, but I think it is not necessary. Create a more diverse place by allowing all kinds of heroes from all kinds of places in middle earth in a way that feels real.

Because as I said on the top, when everyone has the same options ultimiately this middle earth just becomes a place where everyone is exactly the same. I think embracing the cultures of middle earth and also embracing our cultures in the real world is a much better way to come closer together

For bearded women I don't think it is necessary, but I don't mind it to be there. It is a little silly, but more power to the people who like to play around with it. Also want to point out that from a role play aspect it could be someone like Eyowin who tries to blend in with the rest of riders of rohan.
But I think it is important to have some distinction for the different cultures. That is all what matters to me personally!

I wish everyone a beautiful time in Middle-Earth and a nice sunday

[Radhruin_EU]

They wouldn't ever be designed/framed as manifestations/non-three-dimensional given the game being an mmo and it needs you... to kill things with a sword.

There's more to something being 'Lovecraftian' than it simply being alien and creepy. That's the point. If you can deal with it by hitting it with a stick and then walk off whistling in one piece with your sanity still intact, it ain't Lovecraftian. Lovecraft's stock in trade was crawling existential dread emphasising mankind''s helplessness in the face of vast cosmic forces and beings that have existed far longer than we have, plus a horror of otherness, and how a mere glimpse of the real order of things that lies beyond what we think of reality could drive men mad, but that doesn't work if you can just beat up the funny-looking monsters and take their stuff.

[Seregthol]

Every player leaving the game is a loss because there is no guarantee that that new player will stay or even come due to this. It's a fantasy MMO based on a book concerning northern mythology which pretty much describes the characters and races involved. Changing the appearance to resemble modern day NYC goes directly against that and is very offending. One can only hope that players have enough sense to stay away from too obvious modern options.

Well said.

[Seregthol]

I don't think the changes are awful, I quite like them honestly, however while they look nice and done alright in my opinion, Its doesn't feel like Middle-Earth at all, its the wrong place for it to me, though a few hairstyles imo are just fine. also Race of Man Female with beards is even more off for Middle-Earth.

I would've rather seen them using different varieties of Medieval hairstyles as theres plenty to base it off of, then using modern fantasy style.

Way too much common sense in this post when compared to the direction the Devs are obviously taking the game with some of these latest changes.

[bjute]

They should have just improved the graphics on current models/hairstyles rather than adding more options. At least that should have been the priority. I have seen some screenshots of new hairstyles/bearded females and it looks completely out of place for a LOTR game. Another joke of an update I guess.. The game has turned into a massive meme in recent years.

[zipfile]

Get your seatbelts ready and strap yourselves in cause we're going on a wild ride down the "How did you mess up a great opportunity?" road.

So, new racial options, I'm all for it, let people express themselves.
But how on Earth did you not foresee the backlash coming from it? Hell, it was obvious for years now that if you did this, community would react negatively.
It screams corporatism and tokenism to just put these options in the character creator without any sort of background. It's so backwards that you've almost come full circle on it.
Here's the thing tho, this could've easily been solved by adding more racial origins.

• Umbar overall gets darker, more southern Mediterranean tones/northern African tones
• Rhun gets more Middle-eastern tones
• Harad gets far eastern Asian vibes
• Khand gets African options, mix in some jungle-like vibes too.

Congratulations, you've pleased the roleplayers that can now play as outcasted vagabonds that weren't swayed by the promises and threats of Sauron and fled to west to help the Free Peoples, you pleased the conservatives cause they cannot argue back against this logic and you've avoided a ton of drama over something that could've been such a great opportunity to tease us with future content.

Not even going to touch that other debate....

[TesalionLortus]

Get your seatbelts ready and strap yourselves in cause we're going on a wild ride down the "How did you mess up a great opportunity?" road.

So, new racial options, I'm all for it, let people express themselves.
But how on Earth did you not foresee the backlash coming from it? Hell, it was obvious for years now that if you did this, community would react negatively.
It screams corporatism and tokenism to just put these options in the character creator without any sort of background. It's so backwards that you've almost come full circle on it.
Here's the thing tho, this could've easily been solved by adding more racial origins.

• Umbar overall gets darker, more southern Mediterranean tones/northern African tones
• Rhun gets more Middle-eastern tones
• Harad gets far eastern Asian vibes
• Khand gets African options, mix in some jungle-like vibes too.

Congratulations, you've pleased the roleplayers that can now play as outcasted vagabonds that weren't swayed by the promises and threats of Sauron and fled to west to help the Free Peoples, you pleased the conservatives cause they cannot argue back against this logic and you've avoided a ton of drama over something that could've been such a great opportunity to tease us with future content.

Not even going to touch that other debate....

Yes, exactly, but you've mixed those up a bit

• Umbar - may get overall darker, more southern Mediterranean tones/northern African tones, due to its slave populace and who is to say we aren't an escaped slave, but throw in Arab-styled Turkish-styled appearances too, to connect them to the game's Corsairs/Haradrim and their models from the game we saw so far, which would be more how a typical ethnic Corsair would look like
• Rhun gets some more Middle-eastern tones but more in a "Persian" style, so far Middle-eastern, and then it goes into East, Far East or even some Indian vibes
• Harad gets Middle-eastern vibes, a bit like an Arab world, maybe with some more distinct spins depending on where (like Egyptians of old)
• Far Harad gets African options, mix in some jungle-like vibes too.
• Khand - not sure, depends on what the devs wanna do with it and whether Variags are it or Variags are just a small subset of this land (like Wikings for Byzantines) and it's different ethnically than Variags are

PS: But how things stand, given they seem to want to open everything up for any origin... let's just settle on having more origins in avatar creation and hopefully they actually stick to the above on landscape and in their actual stories, which is far more important anyway. Though they could use a "preset" option to provide an overall sense of how each origin chosen is narratively supposed to look like, as opposed to have some random presets out of a blue.

[bjute]

Yes, exactly, but you've mixed those up a bit

• Umbar - may get overall darker, more southern Mediterranean tones/northern African tones, due to its slave populace and who is to say we aren't an escaped slave, but throw in Arab-styled Turkish-styled appearances too, to connect them to the game's Corsairs/Haradrim and their models from the game we saw so far, which would be more how a typical ethnic Corsair would look like
• Rhun gets some more Middle-eastern tones but more in a "Persian" style, so far Middle-eastern, and then it goes into East, Far East or even some Indian vibes
• Harad gets Middle-eastern vibes, a bit like an Arab world, maybe with some more distinct spins depending on where (like Egyptians of old)
• Far Harad gets African options, mix in some jungle-like vibes too.
• Khand - not sure, depends on what the devs wanna do with it and whether Variags are it or Variags are just a small subset of this land (like Wikings for Byzantines) and it's different ethnically than Variags are

PS: But how things stand, given they seem to want to open everything up for any origin... let's just settle on having more origins in avatar creation and hopefully they actually stick to the above on landscape and in their actual stories, which is far more important anyway. Though they could use a "preset" option to provide an overall sense of how each origin chosen is narratively supposed to look like, as opposed to have some random presets out of a blue.

I'm sorry, but why are you guys talking about races and compare them to the real world? Did Tolkien really describe and compare races in middle-earth to real world cultures, or is it something you just make up as you go?

I think the only thing Tolkien hinted were the skin color, not that the races look "Middle-eastern" "African" etc.. So if they were to follow your "advice", its just as lore-breaking

[TesalionLortus]

I'm sorry, but why are you guys talking about races and compare them to the real world? Did Tolkien really describe and compare races in middle-earth to real world cultures, or is it something you just make up as you go?

I think the only thing Tolkien hinted were the skin color, not that the races look "Middle-eastern" "African" etc.. So if they were to follow your "advice", its just as lore-breaking

Play the game again, interact with the Corsairs, Easterlings and Haradrim mobs/NPCs already there in the game. Notice some connotations between real world cultures from history and cultures/ethnicities they introduced in the game. (Tolkien loved history and certainly was inspired by it, no?) Then come back here again and tell me how it is "lore breaking" that players want SSG to honor their own lore and some basic common sense. Because I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than already established lore of the game doesn't matter and cultures/nations consist of all colors and shades and hairstyles in equal measure without any distinct characteristics (no, they don't, and even more so for less modern ones).

[bjute]

Play the game again, interact with the Corsairs, Easterlings and Haradrim mobs/NPCs already there in the game. Notice some connotations between real world cultures from history and cultures/ethnicities they introduced in the game. (Tolkien loved history and certainly was inspired by it, no?) Then come back here again and tell me how it is "lore breaking" that players want SSG to honor their own lore and some basic common sense. Because I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than already established lore of the game doesn't matter and cultures/nations consist of all colors and shades and hairstyles in equal measure without any distinct characteristics (no, they don't, and even more so for less modern ones).

Even if they add these origins to the character select, it makes no sense lore-wise as these people did not fight for the free peoples during the main story...

[TesalionLortus]

Even if they add these origins to the character select, it makes no sense lore-wise as these people did not fight for the free peoples during the main story...

Stretched and no actual narrative provided, but you can always say your avatar legged it and now fights against Sauron. The bottom line is having a character you can somewhat realistically cosplay including their origins and - perhaps even more important - some good first impression taste for representing ALL of Middle-earth and giving some sense of distinction.

[Elmagor]

Play the game again, interact with the Corsairs, Easterlings and Haradrim mobs/NPCs already there in the game. Notice some connotations between real world cultures from history and cultures/ethnicities they introduced in the game. (Tolkien loved history and certainly was inspired by it, no?) Then come back here again and tell me how it is "lore breaking" that players want SSG to honor their own lore and some basic common sense. Because I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than already established lore of the game doesn't matter and cultures/nations consist of all colors and shades and hairstyles in equal measure without any distinct characteristics (no, they don't, and even more so for less modern ones).

Interacting different thing. As example, Gandalf interact with different beings, from Balrog and Saruman to Sauron and Mouth of Sauron. We ineract with goblins and orcs, how it allow us use them as playable characters on freep side?

Ineracting means "we in war, you at one side, and I at different side, and I don't kill you on sight because dealing with you important for my side". Not like "Let's drink and be friends forever". Yes, we drink with Jajax, but how that make him on 100% on Gondor side? That was more like "enemy of my enemy can be my ally for a while"

[bjute]

Stretched and no actual narrative provided, but you can always say your avatar legged it and now fights against Sauron.

You can do that without adding a different origin? Like we have always been able to create dark skinned humans, just because they added new hairstyles and facial features doesn't mean that anything has to happen now after 16 years?

My complaint is more about the quality of the new "updates". They add new cosmetic looks rather than upgrading the graphics on the current ones. The new hairstyles looks out of place and has generally poor quality IMO.

[TesalionLortus]

You can do that without adding a different origin? Like we have always been able to create dark skinned humans, just because they added new hairstyles and facial features doesn't mean that anything has to happen now after 16 years?

My complaint is more about the quality of the new "updates". They add new cosmetic looks rather than upgrading the graphics on the current ones. The new hairstyles looks out of place and has generally poor quality IMO.

I agree with your complaint, it's a skewed balance but could have been more varied in execution and more across the board.

Still, you're missing the point. The old origins were actually carefully thought through and it made sense to have darker skinned Gondorians and Dale-folk, due to their proximity to the fringes of the "West" and potential historical movements of peoples (although NOT very dark African styled all with tribal look but well assimilated into these Western cultures at this point). Now, if they're not only doing away with all limits between differently existing origins but adding more options on top of it from Far Asian to center African-like, none of which makes sense for Breelander or Gondorian label, then it's the most sensible thing to do to add a whole array of Middle-earth origins to choose from rather than limit things to the West. That's how it works in all other games that have their internal lore yet still offer you to make whatever character you want to create regardless of lore - they allow you to choose from huge array of origin labels and some national characteristics (say tattoos, war paint, voice accents, but LOTRO doesn't have those) according to the lore of this world, in order to immerse the player who wanna be immersed (but satisfy a player who wanna create whatever regardless of any lore). LOTRO has done the second and completely waved away the first, right now - that's not how you do this, that's just another case of the devs not thinking these things through and not applying enough of mindfulness, whereas it wouldn't be too hard to just add those origins, really

[bjute]

I agree with your complaint, it's a skewed balance but could have been more varied in execution and more across the board.

Still, you're missing the point. The old origins were actually carefully thought through and it made sense to have darker skinned Gondorians and Dale-folk, due to their proximity to the fringes of the "West" and potential historical movements of peoples (although NOT very dark African styled all with tribal look but well assimilated into these Western cultures at this point). Now, if they're not only doing away with all limits between differently existing origins but adding more options on top of it from Far Asian to center African-like, none of which makes sense for Breelander or Gondorian label, then it's the most sensible thing to do to add a whole array of Middle-earth origins to choose from rather than limit things to the West. That's how it works in all other games that have their internal lore yet still offer you to make whatever character you want to create regardless of lore - they allow you to choose from huge array of origin labels and some national characteristics (say tattoos, war paint, voice accents, but LOTRO doesn't have those) according to the lore of this world, in order to immerse the player who wanna be immersed (but satisfy a player who wanna create whatever regardless of any lore). LOTRO has done the second and completely waved away the first, right now - that's not how you do this, that's just another case of the devs not thinking these things through and not applying enough of mindfulness, whereas it wouldn't be too hard to just add those origins, really

I get your point, but to add Khand,Harad/Rhun origins makes no sense unless they create a new starter zone for these origins that takes place after the war of the ring. I'm just telling you that SSG wants to add more options to the character creation tool, this has nothing to do with lore.

This really isn't a big deal for me as there are so many lore-breaking things in the game these days anyway. So who cares if you can chose between a few more cosmetically options for your character? Like we are at a point where you can create a hobbit lore-master, beornings running around in Bree and cosmetics that looks like they are from World of Warcraft. This new update is like nothing in comparison to everything else they have added over the years.

That being said, I think its more interesting to discuss the quality of the new character updates.

[Ruflus]

More options = more players

Don't bet on it.

[Pontin_Finnberry]

More options = more players. More players = more money.

As for players who are so offended by the idea of a bearded woman that they will leave the game, I'm not sure that's really a net loss. It's a fantasy MMO, filled with orcs and dragons and minstrels singing things to death.

Eh not really, I don't think LOTRO is going to gain much more players cause more Avatar options, sure some might join or return cause of new options, But if anything gains more or returning players its solving the lag that many left over it cause got tired of it.

[TesalionLortus]

I get your point, but to add Khand,Harad/Rhun origins makes no sense unless they create a new starter zone for these origins that takes place after the war of the ring. I'm just telling you that SSG wants to add more options to the character creation tool, this has nothing to do with lore.

This really isn't a big deal for me as there are so many lore-breaking things in the game these days anyway. So who cares if you can chose between a few more cosmetically options for your character? Like we are at a point where you can create a hobbit lore-master, beornings running around in Bree and cosmetics that looks like they are from World of Warcraft. This new update is like nothing in comparison to everything else they have added over the years.

That being said, I think its more interesting to discuss the quality of the new character updates.

They'll allow someone to create a central-African black female or far Asian male. Maybe this potential player is a giant IDGAF player, sure, but maybe they're not and they would welcome immersion/some quality/some common sense - so it's on the devs to deliver it and character creation panel is literally like THE FIRST IMPRESSION of the game. You can't stress this enough and they shouldn't just treat it as nonchalantly

Again, they'll allow someone to create a central-African black female or far Asian male. These ethnicities belong somewhere in Middle-earth or on fringes of Middle-earth map - where? Since they'll allow it, the cat is out of the bag - so no, clearly you don't need any special intros and storylines to introduce them. A short description at the creation panel like in most other games is enough. Stout-axe is going to be an anomaly from now on, not a rule, and when they do the same for dwarves, ideally, they should just turn the entire Stout-axe choice of "race" into Stout-axe origins choice under dwarf race, which would be the only one that exclusively has a playable intro attached to it. (Or, if that's technically impossible, too difficult, to time-intensive, and all the usual, then have Stout-axes distinct - no darker blacks, no Asians - and just offer their present counterpart choice, the Kambrada, under the general dwarf generator that has all the options)

As for the elves, I guess a "racial" distinction of High Elven may remain, since the entire Light of the Trees makes them very special - but in that case... no blacks for them, ok SSG? Unless you can add an appropriate origin that somewhat makes sense for Valinor/Beleriand, idk... but that's literally impossible I guess... so you know, come on, be smart/orderly about this and apply a little bit of restraint where applicable

[Eliazere]

So many people in this thread need to spend a lot less time being upset about what body types can have a beard and a lot more time in therapy, where they belong, yeeeeeeeesh

[Neinda]

So many people in this thread need to spend a lot less time being upset about what body types can have a beard and a lot more time in therapy, where they belong, yeeeeeeeesh

Or maybe enroll in a basic science class so they can learn that humans (male and female) have body hair. Just because women shave more than men doesn't mean the body hair doesn't exist.

[Elmagor]

So many people in this thread need to spend a lot less time being upset about what body types can have a beard and a lot more time in therapy, where they belong, yeeeeeeeesh

Because you don't need broke something what already working pretty good

New "race of man" avatar constructor have many great features now, but choice for detalis broke everything what was done good with this job