Give us an option to turn beards off on females please. ( except dwarfs )

[Baggins]

Thank you for taking the time to compile this. I have all of the source material, but not the time to painstakingly sift for each reference over so many of the course of the Professor's writing history. Particularly with his Letters, where he delves into more detail over these specific topics. Bravo, Baggins!

Thank you I’m glad someone cares…

I still need to sift through more of HOME when I have the chance.

Gonna split some is the stuff up a bit since it’s reaching page limits…

Finally many of the references to geography and regional inspiration.

In principle I object as strongly as is possible to the ‘translation’ of the nomenclature at all (even by a competent person). I wonder why a translator should think himself called on or entitled to do any such thing. That this is an ‘imaginary’ world does not give him any right to remodel it according to his fancy, even if he could in a few months create a new coherent structure which it took me years to work out. I presume that if I had presented the Hobbits as speaking Italian, Russian, Chinese, or what you will, he would have left the names alone. Or, if I had pretended that ‘the Shire’ was some fictitious Loamshire1 of actual England. Yet actually in an imaginary country and period, as this one, coherently made, the nomenclature is a more important element than in an ‘historical’ novel. But, of course, if we drop the ‘fiction’ of long ago, ‘The Shire’ is based on rural England and not any other country in the world–least perhaps of any in Europe on Holland, which is topographically wholly dissimilar. (In fact so different is it, that in spite of the affinity of its language, and in many respects of its idiom, which should ease some part of the translator’s labour, its toponymy is specially unsuitable for the purpose.) The toponymy of The Shire, to take the first list, is a ‘parody’ of that of rural England, in much the same sense as are its inhabitants: they go together and are meant to. After all the book is English, and by an Englishman, and presumably even those who wish its narrative and dialogue turned into an idiom that they understand, will not ask of a translator that he should deliberately attempt to destroy the local colour. I do not ask that of a translator, though I might be glad of a glossary where (seldom) the meaning of the place-name is essential. I would not wish, in a book starting from an imaginary mirror of Holland, to meet Hedge, Duke’sbush, Eaglehome, or Applethorn even if these were ‘translations’ of ’sGravenHage, Hertogenbosch, Arnhem, or Apeldoorn! These ‘translations’ are not English, they are just homeless. Actually the Shire Map plays a very small part in the narrative, and most of its purpose is a descriptive build-up. It is, of course, based on some acquaintance with English toponymical history, which the translator would appear not to possess (nor I guess does he know much of that of the Netherlands). But he need not, if he would leave it alone. The proper way to treat the first map is to change its title to Een Deel von ‘The Shire’ and no more; though I suppose naar for ‘to’ in such directions as ‘To Little Delving’ wd. do no harm. The Translator has (on internal evidence) glanced at but not used the Appendices. He seems incidentally quite unaware of difficulties he is creating for himself later. The ‘Anglo-Saxon’ of the Rohirrim is not much like Dutch. In fact he is pulling to bits with very clumsy fingers a web that he has made only a slight attempt to understand. . . . . The essential point missed, of course, is: even where a place-name is fully analysable by speakers of the language (usually not the case) this is not as a rule done. If in an imaginary land real place-names are used, or ones that are carefully constructed to fall into familiar patterns, these become integral names, ‘sound real’, and translating them by their analysed senses is quite insufficient. This Dutchman’s Dutch names should sound real Dutch. Well, actually I am no Dutch scholar at all, and know little of the peculiar history of Dutch toponymy, but I do not believe that as a rule they do. Anyway lots of them are nonsense anyway or wholly erroneous, which I can only equal by supposing that you met Blooming, Newtown, Lake How, Documents, Baconbury, Blushing and then discovered the author had written Florence, Naples, (Lake or Lago di) Como, Chartres, Hamburg, and Flushing = Vlissingen! I enclose in justification of my strictures a detailed commentary on the lists. . . . . I am sure the correct (as well as for publisher and translator the more economical?) way is to leave the maps and nomenclature alone as far as possible, but to substitute for some of the least-wanted Appendices a glossary of names (with meanings but no refs.). I could supply one for translation. May I say now at once that I will not tolerate any similar tinkering with the personal nomenclature. Nor with the name/ word Hobbit. I will not have any more Hompen (in which I was not consulted), nor any Hobbel or what not. Elves, Dwarfs/ ves, Trolls, yes: they are mere modern equivalents of the correct terms. But hobbit (and orc) are of that world, and they must stay, whether they sound Dutch or not. . . . . If you think I am being absurd, then I shall be greatly distressed; but I fear not altered in my opinions. The few people I have been able to consult, I must say, express themselves equally strongly. Anyway I’m not going to be treated à la Mrs Tiggywinkle = Poupette à l’épingle.fn59 Not that B[ eatrix] P[ otter] did not give translators hell. Though possibly from securer grounds than I have. I am no linguist, but I do know something about nomenclature, and have specially studied it, and I am actually very angry indeed.”

“‘The Shire is not far from North Oxford’. It is in fact more or less a Warwickshire village of about the period of the Diamond Jubilee–that is as far away as the Third Age from that depressing and perfectly characterless straggle of houses north of old Oxford, which has not even a postal existence.”

There is no special reference to England in the ‘Shire’–except of course that as an Englishman brought up in an ‘almost rural’ village of Warwickshire on the edge of the prosperous bourgeoisie of Birmingham (about the time of the Diamond Jubilee!) I take my models like anyone else–from such ‘life’ as I know. But there is no post-war reference. I am not a ‘socialist’ in any sense–being averse to ‘planning’ (as must be plain) most of all because the ‘planners’, when they acquire power, become so bad–but I would not say that we had to suffer the malice of Sharkey and his Ruffians here. Though the spirit of ‘Isengard’, if not of Mordor, is of course always cropping up. The present design of destroying Oxford in order to accommodate motor-cars is a case. 2 But our chief adversary is a member of a ‘Tory’ Government. But you could apply it anywhere in these days.”

“For instance I was born in 1892 and lived for my early years in ‘the Shire’ in a premechanical age. Or more important, I am a Christian (which can be deduced from my stories), and in fact a Roman Catholic.”

Middle-earth. . . . corresponds spiritually to Nordic Europe. Not Nordic, please! A word I personally dislike; it is associated, though of French origin, with racialist theories. Geographically Northern is usually better. But examination will show that even this is inapplicable (geographically or spiritually) to ‘Middle-earth’. This is an old word, not invented by me, as reference to a dictionary such as the Shorter Oxford will show. It meant the habitable lands of our world, set amid the surrounding Ocean. The action of the story takes place in the North-west of ‘Middle-earth’, equivalent in latitude to the coastlands of Europe and the north shores of the Mediterranean. But this is not a purely ‘Nordic’ area in any sense. If Hobbiton and Rivendell are taken (as intended) to be at about the latitude of Oxford, then Minas Tirith, 600 miles south, is at about the latitude of Florence. The Mouths of Anduin and the ancient city of Pelargir are at about the latitude of ancient Troy. Auden has asserted that for me ‘the North is a sacred direction’. That is not true. The North-west of Europe, where I (and most of my ancestors) have lived, has my affection, as a man’s home should. I love its atmosphere, and know more of its histories and languages than I do of other parts; but it is not ‘sacred’, nor does it exhaust my affections. I have, for instance, a particular love for the Latin language, and among its descendants for Spanish. That it is untrue for my story, a mere reading of the synopses should show. The North was the seat of the fortresses of the Devil. The progress of the tale ends in what is far more like the re-establishment of an effective Holy Roman Empire with its seat in Rome than anything that would be devised by a ‘Nordic’.”

“Thank you very much for your letter. . . . It came while I was away, in Gondor (sc. Venice), as a change from the North Kingdom, or I would have answered before.”

I am historically minded. Middle-earth is not an imaginary world. The name is the modern form (appearing in the 13th century and still in use) of midden-erd > middel-erd, an ancient name for the oikoumen?, the abiding place of Men, the objectively real world, in use specifically opposed to imaginary worlds (as Fairyland) or unseen worlds (as Heaven or Hell). The theatre of my tale is this earth, the one in which we now live, but the historical period is imaginary. The essentials of that abiding place are all there (at any rate for inhabitants of N.W. Europe), so naturally it feels familiar, even if a little glorified by the enchantment of distance in time.”

Do not laugh! But once upon a time (my crest has long since fallen) I had a mind to make a body of more or less connected legend, ranging from the large and cosmogonic, to the level of romantic fairy-story–the larger founded on the lesser in contact with the earth, the lesser drawing splendour from the vast backcloths–which I could dedicate simply to: to England; to my country. It should possess the tone and quality that I desired, somewhat cool and clear, be redolent of our ‘air’ (the clime and soil of the North West, meaning Britain and the hither parts of Europe: not Italy or the Aegean, still less the East), and, while possessing (if I could achieve it) the fair elusive beauty that some call Celtic (though it is rarely found in genuine ancient Celtic things), it should be ‘high’, purged of the gross, and fit for the more adult mind of a land long now steeped in poetry. I would draw some of the great tales in fullness, and leave many only placed in the scheme, and sketched. The cycles should be linked to a majestic whole, and yet leave scope for other minds and hands, wielding paint and music and drama. Absurd. Of course, such an overweening purpose did not develop all at once. The mere stories were the thing. They arose in my mind as ‘given’ things, and as they came, separately, so too the links grew. An absorbing, though continually interrupted labour (especially since, even apart from the necessities of life, the mind would wing to the other pole and spend itself on the linguistics): yet always I had the sense of recording what was already ‘there’, somewhere: not of ‘inventing’.”

“The ‘dwarves’ of my legends are far nearer to the dwarfs of Germanic [legends] than are the Elves, but still in many ways very different from them. The legends of their dealings with Elves (and Men) in The Silmarillion, and in The L.R., and of the Orc-dwarf wars have no counterpart known to me. In Völuspá, Eikinskjaldi rendered Oakenshield is a separate name, not a nickname; and the use of the name as a surname and the legend of its origin will not be found in Norse. Gandalfr is a dwarf-name in Völuspá!”

May I say that all this is ‘mythical’, and not any kind of new religion or vision. As far as I know it is merely an imaginative invention, to express, in the only way I can, some of my (dim) apprehensions of the world. All I can say is that, if it were ‘history’, it would be difficult to fit the lands and events (or ‘cultures’) into such evidence as we possess, archaeological or geological, concerning the nearer or remoter part of what is now called Europe; though the Shire, for instance, is expressly stated to have been in this region (I p. 12). 6 I could have fitted things in with greater verisimilitude, if the story had not become too far developed, before the question ever occurred to me. I doubt if there would have been much gain; and I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gapfn75 in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for ‘literary credibility’, even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of ‘pre-history’.”

But, of course, if one sets out to address ‘adults’ (mentally adult people anyway), they will not be pleased, excited, or moved unless the whole, or the incidents, seem to be about something worth considering, more e.g. than mere danger and escape: there must be some relevance to the ‘human situation’ (of all periods). So something of the teller’s own reflections and ‘values’ will inevitably get worked in. This is not the same as allegory. We all, in groups or as individuals, exemplify general principles; but we do not represent them. The Hobbits are no more an ‘allegory’ than are (say) the pygmies of the African forest. Gollum is to me just a ‘character’–an imagined person–who granted the situation acted so and so under opposing strains, as it appears to be probable that he would (there is always an incalculable element in any individual real or imagined: otherwise he/ she would not be an individual but a ‘type’.)

I have no doubt that in the area envisaged by my story (which is large) the ‘dress’ of various peoples, Men and others, was much diversified in the Third Age, according to climate, and inherited custom. As was our world, even if we only consider Europe and the Mediterranean and the very near ‘East’ (or South), before the victory in our time of the least lovely style of dress (especially for males and ‘neuters’) which recorded history reveals–a victory that is still going on, even among those who most hate the lands of its origin. The Rohirrim were not ‘mediaeval’, in our sense. The styles of the Bayeux Tapestry (made in England) fit them well enough, if one remembers that the kind of tennis-nets [the] soldiers seem to have on are only a clumsy conventional sign for chain-mail of small rings. The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled ‘Egyptians’–the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in ‘theology’: in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan–but this would take long to set out: to explain indeed why there is practically no overt ‘religion’, fn73 or rather religious acts or places or ceremonies among the ‘good’ or anti-Sauron peoples in The Lord of the Rings.) I think the crown of Gondor (the S. Kingdom) was very tall, like that of Egypt, but with wings attached, not set straight back but at an angle. The N. Kingdom had only a diadem (III 323). Cf. the difference between the N. and S. kingdoms of Egypt.”

The poem on Fastitocalon is not like Cat and Oliphaunt my own invention entirely but a reduced and rewritten form, to suit hobbit fancy, of an item in old ‘bestiaries’. I think it was remarkable that you perceived the Greekness of the name through its corruptions. This I took in fact from a fragment of an Anglo-Saxon bestiary that has survived, thinking that it sounded comic and absurd enough to serve as a hobbit alteration of something more learned and elvish–according to [a] system whereby as English replaces the Shire-speech so Latin and Greek replace the High-elven tongue in names.”

There are only about 30 suitable place names in the small section of the Shire printed, but there are more in my map, and if a proper map of the whole Shire were drawn up there could be quite a large number of places entered. The names already entered, even those that seem unlikely (as Nobottle), are in fact devised according to the style, origins, and mode of formation of English (especially Midland) place-names.

“I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh.”

[DavidmeetHal]

If you are going to include ridiculous options like this in this game, at least make an option so we can turn these off. Or at least take the mmo out of the game and make it just a single player game. SSG, let's face it, most people who will make a female with a beard will be doing it just because it's stupid or because they are trying to ruin the game experience of everyone else. This game didn't need nor should it have ever gotten this option but here we are. Now that it is here, at least give us an option to turn it off so those of us who don't want to see it don't have to. This is a game, set in Tolkien's world and that is where we play this game. Women didn't wear beards back then and 99.9999999 percent of women today also don't wear beards. As a matter of fact, they spend millions every year to not have facial hair. So for the love of the world we play this game in, give us an option to turn beards off on females.

I am not saying to take away the option, just give us the option to not show them in game.


P.S. Disclaimer: what ever you want to do in real life, go for it. LOTRO is not real life, we don't need to see beards on females in this game.

/signed a million times over. And I agree, it IS a ridiculous option.

[Rimenuir]

You can't just add anything you want, just because it's fantasy.

I mean you can though, it's fantasy. Fantasy isn't real, anything goes. I literally have characters throw fire via rune stones. We are fighting dragons and spiders that are 20ft tall, you don't think that will put some hair on your face?

[Elmagor]

I mean you can though, it's fantasy. Fantasy isn't real, anything goes. I literally have characters throw fire via rune stones. We are fighting dragons and spiders that are 20ft tall, you don't think that will put some hair on your face?

But without rune stone you can't do anything.

Fantasy can't be "I can do anything I want"

[mr_underfoot]

Im glad I now have the option to roam middle earth with my bearded brethren. Thank you SSG for this amazing change I am happy to be included in your online adventure

take your racist trolling elsewhere, please

[Grey_Havens_Taxi]

take your racist trolling elsewhere, please

Someone had to go there.

[DavidmeetHal]

take your racist trolling elsewhere, please

Where is the racism? This is a pretty serious accusation, and quite frankly, I don't see anything to back it up.

[Jakreal]

take your racist trolling elsewhere, please

No one is being racist or trolling. Please keep this conversation civil. Thank you

[Radhruin_EU]

I mean you can though, it's fantasy. Fantasy isn't real, anything goes. I literally have characters throw fire via rune stones. We are fighting dragons and spiders that are 20ft tall, you don't think that will put some hair on your face?

'Fantasy' is just a label for a genre of fiction. Fiction - any fiction - isn't real by definition as it's imaginary but what matters is what's being described, what you're being asked to believe (or in the case of fantasy, what you're being asked to suspend disbelief in, as well). Middle-earth as a fantastical 'secondary world' isn't one in which anything goes; it's written as a fantasy version of 'our' world in some imaginary ancient time, so the world itself operates in a broadly familiar way and western Middle-earth is meant to have the 'air' of Europe, so there's something there that anchors it. There are fantasy elements like Orcs, Trolls and dragons etc. overlaid on that but not in some crazy 'anything goes' way, it's constructed with thought and care and it's inspired by Northern European myth and legend so it's meant to resemble something specific, not just any old thing.

Most fantasy has some sort of internal logic, it's not just random stuff so it's not as if anything goes all the time. It depends what the story's about, what the 'rules' are by which the imaginary world operates. Middle-earth is markedly *less* fantastical than, say, WoW's Azeroth and Outland. You can have whole peoples who may live in a fantasy world but who themselves live ordinary lives with nothing magical about them whatsoever. Here that's hobbits and most Men (as originally written, at least); hobbits are obviously fantasy beings but apart from their existence being fantasy, they're meant to be completely mundane themselves. They have to contend with everyday existence in exactly the same way we do. And Men, well, by and large they're just people like us except that they happen to live in a fantasy world (but one that works very much like ours, on a base level, because it's consciously meant to resemble ours and remind people of it). And as for magic, since you mentioned it and the story includes it, not everyone has it and it can't just do any old thing either, there are 'rules' to that as well. Some fantasies do have magic that can do pretty much anything but this isn't one of them.

As for this specific point: no, just it being fantasy won't put hair on your face, as in this particular fantasy setting things like who grows hair on their face, and why they do, would operate in a familiar way for the ordinary people in it (Dwarves and Elves, now, that'd be different). Men, on the whole (Numenoreans excepted as they're a little bit superhuman and so a bit different) are meant to be just like us, in a realistic way. So just like in real life, women wouldn't be sprouting great big bushy beards 'just because' (if women grow excess facial hair, it's for a reason) and it'd be just as surprising to see a woman with a big ol' beard. It happens in real life when a woman's endocrine system is out of whack and it varies, it's not an on/off thing: women with hirsutism (which is what this is called) don't go straight to having a full beard (it's not as if even all men can grow one!), typically it's a heck of a lot less than hair that so it's not like *pow* bearded like Gandalf and what the game shows is an extreme, so it's an odd thing to emphasise like that.

[mr_underfoot]

So just like in real life, women wouldn't be sprouting great big bushy beards

and that's what it boils down to.

people accept lore-breaking in lotro as long as long as they find those changes acceptable to their personal beliefs. pig masks and wings are allowed, bat-riding goblins are allowed, etc. but bearded ladies are not. therefore, the ultimate criterion isn't lore-breaking-ness but the rather the violation of personal beliefs.

let's stop pretending this is about lore!

[Halphast]

"Women can't grow beards"

Male characters in LotRO can already wear dresses; they just retain their male body shapes.
In life, some men can dress as women and be indistinguishable from women apart from the beard - e.g. Conchita Wurst.
Some women grow facial hair- and any woman can wear a false beard.

It doesn't appeal to me, and I'm not going to be making a female human bearded character for myself, but it doesn't seem as impossible to me as to some.

[Radhruin_EU]

and that's what it boils down to.

people accept lore-breaking in lotro as long as long as they find those changes acceptable to their personal beliefs. pig masks and wings are allowed, bat-riding goblins are allowed, etc. but bearded ladies are not. therefore, the ultimate criterion isn't lore-breaking-ness but the rather the violation of personal beliefs.

let's stop pretending this is about lore!

Two things there: first, don't quote-mine like that, I didn't say just that and I didn't mean just that, either and that just plain misrepresents what I said. As for the rest: the thing with the beards is dropping something that's very 'now' in the way it's presented into a fantasy that's supposed to seem ancient, and so it's a clumsy out-of-character reference as part of how the character themselves looks. Of course it's a lore thing, because it all goes back to what Tolkien was going for as he himself described it, and this ain't that.

How you think that compares with, say, pig masks is beyond me. It's not as if the mere existence of something like that in-game is out of character: do these people have festivals? Yes, yes they do. Might some of them involve wearing costumes and masks? Yes. Is there anything wrong with a pig mask in particular? No, not at all. Wearing it all the damn time is just player behaviour and that's got nothing to do with the game itself. Not an issue. It's not as if you can literally morph your character that way so it's got nothing to do with this.

As for bat-riding Goblins: that's just another example of SSG doing 'whatever' like they do now so it's more of the same bad habit of just sticking any old thing into the game. Great big evil bats are a thing, yes, but they're not meant to be big enough for anyone to ride so that's an obvious howler, and as far as the game goes one poorly-chosen addition doesn't mean it's open season for every other poorly-chosen addition someone might come up with. And it's also got nothing to do with how player-characters look: stick to the subject. When it gets to the point that player-characters can be embodying some sort of modern trend (and hence be out of character) just on the loading screen, never mind when actually playing, that's more than just the usual case of this or that being off.

[mr_underfoot]

And it's also got nothing to do with how player-characters look: stick to the subject.

i am sticking to the subject, which is lore-breaking, and how a tiny minority are weaponizing it to project their personal beliefs onto the game.

[Radhruin_EU]

i am sticking to the subject, which is lore-breaking, and how a tiny minority are weaponizing it to project their personal beliefs onto the game.

I can see what you're trying to make it about, sure. But the thing is, the game's actually been pretty good up until now when it came to making the characters themselves look like plausible inhabitants of the west of Middle-earth, but now (by making some of them look more like TikTok influencers who are trying to make a point) SSG have come up with a whole new sort of lore-breaking, giving a nod to modern trends. And your examples don't make that any less so.

[TesalionLortus]

a tiny minority are weaponizing it

What's that even?

You need to look in the mirror, I think. How you're weaponizing the subject to try and paint everyone else who disagrees with you as a tiny minority - and would be nice to know where do you get these numbers from, by the way. (They're based on no evidence, most likely, because this is the level of debate you showed so far)

[wispsong]

'Fantasy' is just a label for a genre of fiction. Fiction - any fiction - isn't real by definition as it's imaginary but what matters is what's being described, what you're being asked to believe (or in the case of fantasy, what you're being asked to suspend disbelief in, as well). Middle-earth as a fantastical 'secondary world' isn't one in which anything goes; it's written as a fantasy version of 'our' world in some imaginary ancient time, so the world itself operates in a broadly familiar way and western Middle-earth is meant to have the 'air' of Europe, so there's something there that anchors it. There are fantasy elements like Orcs, Trolls and dragons etc. overlaid on that but not in some crazy 'anything goes' way, it's constructed with thought and care and it's inspired by Northern European myth and legend so it's meant to resemble something specific, not just any old thing.

Most fantasy has some sort of internal logic, it's not just random stuff so it's not as if anything goes all the time. It depends what the story's about, what the 'rules' are by which the imaginary world operates. Middle-earth is markedly *less* fantastical than, say, WoW's Azeroth and Outland. You can have whole peoples who may live in a fantasy world but who themselves live ordinary lives with nothing magical about them whatsoever. Here that's hobbits and most Men (as originally written, at least); hobbits are obviously fantasy beings but apart from their existence being fantasy, they're meant to be completely mundane themselves. They have to contend with everyday existence in exactly the same way we do. And Men, well, by and large they're just people like us except that they happen to live in a fantasy world (but one that works very much like ours, on a base level, because it's consciously meant to resemble ours and remind people of it). And as for magic, since you mentioned it and the story includes it, not everyone has it and it can't just do any old thing either, there are 'rules' to that as well. Some fantasies do have magic that can do pretty much anything but this isn't one of them.

As for this specific point: no, just it being fantasy won't put hair on your face, as in this particular fantasy setting things like who grows hair on their face, and why they do, would operate in a familiar way for the ordinary people in it (Dwarves and Elves, now, that'd be different). Men, on the whole (Numenoreans excepted as they're a little bit superhuman and so a bit different) are meant to be just like us, in a realistic way. So just like in real life, women wouldn't be sprouting great big bushy beards 'just because' (if women grow excess facial hair, it's for a reason) and it'd be just as surprising to see a woman with a big ol' beard. It happens in real life when a woman's endocrine system is out of whack and it varies, it's not an on/off thing: women with hirsutism (which is what this is called) don't go straight to having a full beard (it's not as if even all men can grow one!), typically it's a heck of a lot less than hair that so it's not like *pow* bearded like Gandalf and what the game shows is an extreme, so it's an odd thing to emphasise like that.

I agree with you. People want to make everything like todays NYC when in reality most want to escape NYC and live in this fantasy world as described by the author. All fantasy is set in a specific world with specific beings and behavior. All stories are set in a specific world with specific beings and behavior. But today you can't even escape to historical movies, games without being bombarded with a modern NYC setting.

[wispsong]

i am sticking to the subject, which is lore-breaking, and how a tiny minority are weaponizing it to project their personal beliefs onto the game.

Personal beliefs? Tolkien didn't write bearded women except dwarves in his story. I can't recall any shaved hairstyles mentioned either. Your beliefs, modern world beliefs are put in a world that wasn't based on that.

[Fealhach]

i am sticking to the subject, which is lore-breaking, and how a tiny minority are weaponizing it to project their personal beliefs onto the game.

Weaponized beards eh? That's a new one.

Studies suggest that Men developed Beards as a way to absorb or deflect blows to the face. Survival of the fittest and all that. Women tended not to be stupid enough to get into fisticuffs. In many ancient civilizations it was a requirement for men, especially fighting men to have beards. And it was also a sign of virility. Egyptian Queens did get to have sticky on Beards though.

[mr_underfoot]

would be nice to know where do you get these numbers from, by the way.

my casual googling has sites estimating daily players at 30K to 50K; the main thread has about 220 replies so far, even if every single one of those was a unique complainer that still comes out to less than 1%.

Tolkien didn't write bearded women except dwarves in his story.

by protesting only the bearded women and not anything else you are actually proving my point.

[Hobbit_bounder]

"Women can't grow beards"

Male characters in LotRO can already wear dresses; they just retain their male body shapes.
In life, some men can dress as women and be indistinguishable from women apart from the beard - e.g. Conchita Wurst.
Some women grow facial hair- and any woman can wear a false beard.

It doesn't appeal to me, and I'm not going to be making a female human bearded character for myself, but it doesn't seem as impossible to me as to some.

Women can't grow beards like the ones in the game in real life. Maybe a couple hairs at most. It's literally impossible without any medical aid. Men wearing dresses is weird, but not impossible.
It's such a non-argument and for some reason it's repeated here all the time.

[TesalionLortus]

my casual googling has sites estimating daily players at 30K to 50K; the main thread has about 220 replies so far, even if every single one of those was a unique complainer that still comes out to less than 1%.

Highly flawed estimate.

Most players don't come online and don't post a single word. Which doesn't mean they like or glorify every single decision behind the game, at best they are just less enthusiastic to play right now but still planning to return (my pal is in that group after the update) and at worst they silently quit/prioritize other games. Due to this fact alone you can't estimate anything based on this 30-50k range. You would have to figure out the exact number of all players who are actively vocal (which is probably only a fraction of the total number) and then trace the sentiment across all venues - which you can't do anyway because some of the negative feedback was erased and reddit itself is actively silencing people on the matter (last time I checked they had "moderator approval" enabled for all incoming post, precisely for this reason, so nothing "controversial" gets through - meaning a dissatisfied player's post or new customization image that can stir controversy, even it it's not intentional trolling but just genuine screenshot shared, won't be allowed... and all existing posts/images relating to avatar update are already closed for further comments, welcome to internet of 2023, it's an "inclusive" place). Plus, one would have to monitor game chat at all times and see whether some people complain. Quite complicated to measure and perhaps not even SSG is capable of very accurate measurements. Now, get it? Not as easy to claim yourself a defining majority based on a few forum threads.

[Fadil]

which you can't do anyway because some of the negative feedback was erased and reddit itself is actively silencing people on the matter (last time I checked they had "moderator approval" enabled for all incoming post, precisely for this reason, so nothing "controversial" gets through - meaning a dissatisfied player's post or new customization image that can stir controversy, even it it's not intentional trolling but just genuine screenshot shared, won't be allowed...

This is absolutely nonsense. Anyone who wants to criticize the new character update is free to do so in the Reddit sub.
The only thing that isnt allowed is bringing politics or religion into the discussion.
In other words: keep your cultural war out of it.
And that is why so many people prefer to post in the Reddit sub, instead of on this mb of a handful of negativos and whiners.

But I love how you want to silence 56.000 players, because you disagree with the moderation of the Reddit sub.

[Baggins]

Shouldn’t accusing people of being sexist, racist or any other ists/isms be moderated offense?

Personal beliefs? Tolkien didn't write bearded women except dwarves in his story. I can't recall any shaved hairstyles mentioned either. Your beliefs, modern world beliefs are put in a world that wasn't based on that.

More on point there are a-lot of things that Tolkien never discussed, he was never asked about.

But beards is definitely one is the thing he did talk about, and who and who couldn’t have them. He also was pretty specific about descriptions based on the appearances of people I nations, tribes and each race based on their geography in relation to other groups. If people bothered to actually read his writings, letters etc. they would know this…

Like for example the “three houses” (as Tolkien refers to specifically in Tal-Emar” story) of elves calling humans “Swarthy-Men”, while likewise the men refer to thentheee houses as the “white-fiends” because of pale skin. Sorry Rings of Power got it wrong. Unless there is an unknown 4th House of elves Arondir shouldn’t exist in lore.

Infact it’s Tolkien suggested that some Men might be paler because they intermarried with the three houses…. Such as Dunedains and Dol Amroth (possibly even some in Rohan like Thengel). It might even be suggested that most men were once swarthier before they intermarried in some of this lore.

While Gondorians vary between regions with Forlong’s people to be noticeably Swarthy compared to those related to Numenorians or people of Doo Amroth. Rohans people are specifically said to be called Strawheads (Forgoil) or Whiteskins by people around them because they are pale compared to people and orcs living around them.

But ya back to beards… Tolkien was specific to say men (as in the sex, not the race) could have beards not women…

When I come to think of it, in my own imagination, beards were not found among Hobbits (as stated in text); nor among the Eldar (not stated). All male Dwarves had them. The wizards had them, though Radagast (not stated) had only short, curling, light brown hair on his chin. Men normally had them when full-grown, hence Eomer, Theoden and all others named. But not Denethor, Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn, Isildur, or other Numenorean chieftans."

I will not hide from you, Master Peregrin,’ said Beregond, ‘that to us you look almost as one of our children, a lad of nine summers or so; and yet you have endured perils and seen marvels that few of our greybeards could boast of. I thought it was the whim of our Lord to take him a noble page, after the manner of the kings of old, they say. But I see that it is not so, and you must pardon my foolishness.’”

Suddenly, caught by the level beams, Frodo saw the old king’s head: it was lying rolled away by the roadside. ‘Look, Sam!’ he cried, startled into speech. ‘Look! The king has got a crown again!’ The eyes were hollow and the carven beard was broken, but about the high stern forehead there was a coronal of silver and gold. A trailing plant with flowers like small white stars had bound itself across the brows as if in reverence for the fallen king, and in the crevices of his stony hair yellow stonecrop gleamed.”

Gandalf was shorter in stature than the other two; but his long white hair, his sweeping silver beard, and his broad shoulders, made him look like some wise king of ancient legend. In his aged face under great snowy brows his dark eyes were set like coals that could leap suddenly into fire.’

In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last writings of my father’s on the subject of Middle-earth, there is a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with the princely house of Dol Amroth that ‘this line had a special Elvish strain, according to its own legends’ (with a reference to the speeches between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above).”

Forlong has come,’ Bergil answered; ‘old Forlong the Fat, the Lord of Lossarnach. That is where my grandsire lives. Hurrah! Here he is. Good old Forlong!’ Leading the line there came walking a big thick-limbed horse, and on it sat a man of wide shoulders and huge girth, but old and grey-bearded, yet mail-clad and black-helmed and bearing a long heavy spear. Behind him marched proudly a dusty line of men, well-armed and bearing great battle-axes; grim-faced they were, and shorter and somewhat swarthier than any men that Pippin had yet seen in Gondor.”

Beren slipped aside from that blow and catching at his beard his hand found the carcanet of gold, and therewith he swung Naugladur suddenly off his feet upon his face: and Naugladur’s sword was shaken from his grasp, but Beren seized it and slew him therewith, for he said: ‘I will not sully my bright blade with thy dark blood, since there is no need.’ But the body of Naugladur was cast into the Aros.”

Húrin took his freedom, and went forth in grief, embittered by the words of the Dark Lord; and a year was now gone since the death of Túrin his son. For twenty-eight years he had been captive in Angband, and he was grown grim to look upon. His hair and beard were white and long, but he walked unbowed, bearing a great black staff; and he was girt with a sword.”

In the days of the Dark Kings, when a man could still walk dry-shod from the Rising of the Sun to the Sea of its setting, there lived in the fenced town of his people in the green hills of Agar an old man, by name Hazad Longbeard. 1 Two prides he had: in the number of his sons (seventeen in all), and in the length of his beard (five feet without stretching); but his joy in his beard was the greater. For it remained with him, and was soft, and ruly to his hand, whereas his sons for the most part were gone from him, and those that remained, or came ever nigh, were neither gentle nor ruly.”

For indeed Tal-elmar laboured hard and at menial tasks, being but the youngest son of an old man, who had little wealth left save his beard and a repute for wisdom. But strange to say (in that town) he served his father willingly, and loved him, more than all his brothers in one, and more than was the wont of any sons in that land. Indeed it was most often on his father's behalf that the flint-flash was seen in his eyes.”

Hobbits have no beards. There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.

Before the crossing of the mountains the Hobbits had already become divided into three somewhat different breeds: Harfoots, Stoors, and Fallohides. The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; their hands and feet were neat and nimble; and they preferred highlands and hillsides.”

Returning briefly to the manuscript P 5, I have not yet mentioned that in this text, as originally written, the old passage in P 1 concerning the Hobbits of the Marish (‘ the hobbit-breed was not quite pure’, ‘no pure-bred hobbit had a beard’, VI. 312), still preserved in the revision of P 2, was now altered: The Hobbits of that quarter, the Eastfarthing, were rather large and heavy-legged; and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather. But they were Stoors in the most of their blood, as was shown by the down that some grew on their chins. However, the matter of these breeds and the Shire-lore about them we must leave aside for the moment.”

The Stoors were broader, heavier in build, and had less hair on their feet and more on their chins, and preferred flat lands and riversides. [Added: Their feet and hands were large.] The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless; they preferred highlands and hillsides. [Added: Their hands and feet were neat and nimble.] The Fallohides were fairer of skin and often of hair, and were taller than the others; they were lovers of trees and woodlands. [Added: All Hobbits were ‘good shots' with stone, sling or bow, but the Fallohides were the surest on the mark.]”

The habit of building farmhouses and barns was said to have begun among the inhabitants of the Marish down by the Brandywine. The Hobbits of that quarter, the Eastfarthing, were rather large and heavy-legged, and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather. But they were well known to be Stoors in a large part of their blood, as indeed was shown by the down that many grew on their chins. No Harfoot or Fallohide had any trace of a beard. Indeed, the folk of the Marish, and of Buckland, east of the River, which they afterwards occupied, came for the most part later into the Shire up from south-away; and they still had many peculiar names and strange words not found elsewhere in the Shire.”

“As they came to the gates Círdan the Shipwright came forth to greet them. Very tall he was, and his beard was long, and he was grey and old, save that his eyes were keen as stars; and he looked at them and bowed, and said: ‘All is now ready.’”

The following etymological note pertains to the name Russandol in the discussion of the name Maitimo in the numbered list of the names of the seven sons of Feanor (XII:352-53). A marginal note against that discussion provides the detail that Nerdanel “herself had brown hair and a ruddy complexion”. A note elsewhere in the papers associated with this essay reads: “Elves did not have beards until they entered their third cycle of life. Nerdanel’s father [cf. XII:365-66 n.61] was exceptional, being only early in his second.” – Vinyar Tengwar 41, July 2000, p.9.

A note was sent to Patricia Finney (Dec. 9/72), answering a question about beards, that mentioned some of the male characters which she and a friend did not imagine as having beards. I replied that I myself imagined Aragorn, Denethor, Imrahil, Boromir, Faramir as beardless. This, I said, I supposed not to be due to any custom of shaving, but a racial characteristic. None of the Eldar had any beards, and this was a general racial characteristic of all Elves in my “world”. Any element of an Elvish strain in human ancestry was very dominant and lasting (receding only slowly — as might be seen in Númenóreans of royal descent, in the matter of longevity also). The tribes of Men from whom the Númenóreans were descended were normal, and hence the majority of them would have beards. But the royal house was half-elven, having two strains of Elvish race in their ancestry through Lüthien of Doriath (royal Sindarin) and Idril of Gondolin (royal Noldorin). The effects were long-lasting: e.g. in a tendency to a stature a little above the average, to a greater (though steadily decreasing) longevity, and probably most lastingly in beardlessness. Thus none of the Númenórean chieftains of descent from Elros (whether kings or not) would be bearded. It is stated that Elendil was descended from Silmarién, a royal princess. Hence Aragorn and all his ancestors were beardless.

Théoden, who (1) has a white beard in The King of the Golden Hall, and (2) as per Unfinished Tales, has a mother descended from the line of Dol Amroth… and hence has Elven blood in his veins. If Aragorn’s heritage alone makes him beardless then Théoden (and Éomer) should be beardless too.

This is followed by the information attributed to Gimli concerning the Dwarf-women, which was preserved in Appendix A (RK p. 360). There is no difference in substance in the present text, except for the statements that they are never forced to wed against their will (which ‘would of course be impossible’), and that they have beards. This latter is said also in the 1951”

And now the Entwives are only a memory for us, and our beards are long and grey.

Btw ingame Forlong should have a grey-beard… his beard is to dark in game… there are probably other characters that need to be fixed to be lore accurate… sadly…

[Radhruin_EU]

Weaponized beards eh? That's a new one.

Maybe Dwarves have battle-beards?

Sounds kind of like Terry Pratchett except his Dwarfs had weaponized baked goods (don't ask)

[SteelSoulja88]

If you are going to include ridiculous options like this in this game, at least make an option so we can turn these off. Or at least take the mmo out of the game and make it just a single player game. SSG, let's face it, most people who will make a female with a beard will be doing it just because it's stupid or because they are trying to ruin the game experience of everyone else. This game didn't need nor should it have ever gotten this option but here we are. Now that it is here, at least give us an option to turn it off so those of us who don't want to see it don't have to. This is a game, set in Tolkien's world and that is where we play this game. Women didn't wear beards back then and 99.9999999 percent of women today also don't wear beards. As a matter of fact, they spend millions every year to not have facial hair. So for the love of the world we play this game in, give us an option to turn beards off on females.

I am not saying to take away the option, just give us the option to not show them in game.


P.S. Disclaimer: what ever you want to do in real life, go for it. LOTRO is not real life, we don't need to see beards on females in this game.

Maybe they can start selling tomes of female beard removal in the store for 995 LP