Hidden Nuggets we see all the time...

[djheydt]

Turbine's very good at giving NPCs personalities ... and having them remember you. They got their hand in during AC2, when there was (for example) a whole family of Lugians outside Keidelur, each of which had a problem s/he needed help with, but they didn't trust you because they didn't know you. You had to talk to each one of them, and FINALLY one of them would ask you to do something, and when you'd done it, a few of the others would open up.... I spent the whole first day of the patch just doing errands for that family, and thereafter whenever I dropped by, the pet Reedshark would purr at me and the old matriarch would say, "Tapuaua, good to see you again! Can you stay for dinner?"

[Lucanio]

Carfilhiot said...

The problem with this is that by the time Gandalf met Thorin at his hall, he already had a burglar, namely Bilbo. The intro dialog here suggests that Thorin wanted a burglar, when in fact Gandalf had to persuade the dwarves to accept one. It was a nice idea, but they messed it up a bit.

I have to disagree about this statement. I don't believe Gandalf had found the company's burglar yet. I'm sure he had Bilbo in mind actually, but he hadn't visited him yet. Afterall, the dwarves are just setting out going east. Quite sometime later Gandalf meets Bilbo and then the next day the dwarves show up on Bag-End's doorstep. In fact the dwarves seemed to be looking for a Burglar when Gloin references the mark that Gandalf had carved into the front door of Bilbo's hole. The convincing that needs to be done is to convince Thorin that this weird excitable fellow is the correct burglar for the company to take.

[Carfilhiot]

Carfilhiot said...

I have to disagree about this statement. I don't believe Gandalf had found the company's burglar yet. I'm sure he had Bilbo in mind actually, but he hadn't visited him yet. Afterall, the dwarves are just setting out going east. Quite sometime later Gandalf meets Bilbo and then the next day the dwarves show up on Bag-End's doorstep. In fact the dwarves seemed to be looking for a Burglar when Gloin references the mark that Gandalf had carved into the front door of Bilbo's hole. The convincing that needs to be done is to convince Thorin that this weird excitable fellow is the correct burglar for the company to take.

I appreciate Lucanio's response but I think I am right. I researched this earlier and here is an excerpt from a posting I made.

Gandalf: I will go ahead to the Shire to find a burglar...
Thorin: The Shire? A provisioner perhaps, but a burglar?
Gandalf: Do you want a burglar or not?
Thorin: But the Shire? There's nothing there but turnip growers and cooks!
Gandalf: if there's one thing I know, Thorin Oakenshield, it is my hobbits!
Thorin: I do not doubt you, Gandalf, but one must question the wisdom...
Gandalf: Question what you will I have given my answer!
Thorin: Of course, of course! I meant no offence.
Thorin: What about the dragon? Shall our burglar be a champion as well?
Gandalf: Smaug is your affair. I am sure you will devise a suitable end for him.

This is nicely Tolkienesque in tone, but inconsistent with the "The Quest of Erebor," Gandalf's own account of the events in The Hobbit. Originally intended as an Appendix in the LOTR books, it was edited out for space, but appears in The Annotated Hobbit as well as Unfinished Tales - both of which I would expect to be on the shelf at Turbine.

Gandalf visited Thorin twice in Ered Luin - both times in his halls, by the way, and not evicted on the front stoop by "Dourhands," but never mind that. On the first visit he listened but offered no counsel, and promised to return. Then he went to the Shire, thought for a long time, and he picked Bilbo. Then he went back to Thorin and outlined a plan - of stealth. He sold the Dwarves on burglary - with some difficulty; and he named the one he had in mind - Bilbo Baggins. They then went to the Shire to meet the hobbit - and from the Shire they proceeded East immediately. If Gandalf had actually asked "Do you want a burglar or not?" the answer would probably have been "No we do not, we will kill the dragon ourselves."

As for Smaug being "[Thorin's] affair," nothing could be more untrue. The entire reason that Gandalf decided to help the Dwarves in their quest was that Smaug would be a terrible weapon in the hands of the Necromancer (Sauron), who was even then regaining his power. The Quest of Erebor was a diversion that kept Smaug occupied while the White Council of wizards attacked Dol Guldur and drove Sauron out of Mirkwood - before Sauron could attack the Elf strongholds of Lórien and Rivendell. Gandalf in fact told Thorin that the dragon and the rising Shadow would help each other unless something was done. Smaug was the reason Gandalf was standing there. The treasure of Thrain, the Kingdom under the Mountain - these things were Thorin's affair. Smaug was much more. And designing a "suitable end" for him was the one thing that Thorin and the Dwarves never so much as attempted. It took Bilbo's sharp eye, the Thrush's eavesdropping skills, and Bard's black arrow to fashion an end for the dragon.

[Dukayn_]

Hang on, I'm confused here. Is the 'quoted' bit there with the red text quoting you, the book, or someone else's post?

[Adder]

I went and looked, and I couldn't see a darned thing. Could you, at your leisure, go back there and find it again, and then post the ;loc of where you're standing when you can see it?

The coordinates for the best view are 140s, 99.8w, but you can see the image from the top of the hill on the road right up to standing in front of the cliff.

After going back, I realized my memory wasn't very good. It is not a profile as much as a 3/4 relief, and there is not one but TWO images. The second is to the left of the more visible one. In fact, the whole wall looks a bit strange in comparison to all the other cliff walls in the area - almost as though there was something there and then hidden/removed. Upon closer inspection of the face on the left, the area around the face has a 'spirit' feeling to it, and in both faces (if you look real close), you can see the eye within the deep eye sockets glaring at you... the screen shots don't do them justice.

Here is a link to my most recent sceenshot from the coordinates I've give (cropped to save space)...

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/...3/TwoFaces.jpg

[honoure]

Bill! Sam would be upset that you forgot about his favorite pony!
BTW, I hunted wargs & wolves in Lone Lands (should've been Misty Mtns but I was too low lvl then) to make sure Bill would be safe once the Fellowship had passed into Moria.

Karakedi, that's a heckuva catch. Well done.

thats bill ?? that pony always bothers me, there should be a quest to feed the poor dear.

[Lucanio]

Carfilhiot, do you think that Gandalf would have told Thorin his entire motivation for going with them to Erebor? In matters of the Wise there was much that all but they were ignorant of. Furthermore, I have only run two dwarves (one in early closed beta, and another in open beta) so I must admit that I don't recall the exact circumstances of why Thorin's departure as depicted by "The Game". However, I was getting the impression that the Dourhand situation developed due to Thorin's absence, the old when the cat's away syndrome, not that the Dourhands had tossed him out on his ear.
As to the chronology of events that you are referring to for Gandalf, I do not have a copy of "The Quest of Erebor" so I'm not privy to those details. I'd like to check my books to refresh my memory. What I was using was the direct parts of "The Hobbit" that concerned Bilbo joining the Company.

Thanks for any info.

[Berephon]

The problem with this is that by the time Gandalf met Thorin at his hall, he already had a burglar, namely Bilbo. The intro dialog here suggests that Thorin wanted a burglar, when in fact Gandalf had to persuade the dwarves to accept one. It was a nice idea, but they messed it up a bit.

Not so. In the only account of the Quest of Erebor that goes into great detail of the event, Gandalf went to Ered Luin first, and did indeed have to persuade Thorin to take Bilbo along (which our text indirectly reflects); however, he then left for a week on other business, returned to Ered Luin, then went ahead to "prepare" the way . . . that is when he actually spoke with Bilbo.

Of course, we had to make our own version of the event, as we do not have license for the original. The original appears in typsescript B of The Quest of Erebor in Unfinished Tales.

[Berephon]

I appreciate Lucanio's response but I think I am right. I researched this earlier and here is an excerpt from a posting I made.This is nicely Tolkienesque in tone, but inconsistent with the "The Quest of Erebor," Gandalf's own account of the events in The Hobbit. Originally intended as an Appendix in the LOTR books, it was edited out for space, but appears in The Annotated Hobbit as well as Unfinished Tales - both of which I would expect to be on the shelf at Turbine.

Gandalf visited Thorin twice in Ered Luin - both times in his halls, by the way, and not evicted on the front stoop by "Dourhands," but never mind that. On the first visit he listened but offered no counsel, and promised to return. Then he went to the Shire, thought for a long time, and he picked Bilbo. Then he went back to Thorin and outlined a plan - of stealth. He sold the Dwarves on burglary - with some difficulty; and he named the one he had in mind - Bilbo Baggins. They then went to the Shire to meet the hobbit - and from the Shire they proceeded East immediately. If Gandalf had actually asked "Do you want a burglar or not?" the answer would probably have been "No we do not, we will kill the dragon ourselves."

As for Smaug being "[Thorin's] affair," nothing could be more untrue. The entire reason that Gandalf decided to help the Dwarves in their quest was that Smaug would be a terrible weapon in the hands of the Necromancer (Sauron), who was even then regaining his power. The Quest of Erebor was a diversion that kept Smaug occupied while the White Council of wizards attacked Dol Guldur and drove Sauron out of Mirkwood - before Sauron could attack the Elf strongholds of Lórien and Rivendell. Gandalf in fact told Thorin that the dragon and the rising Shadow would help each other unless something was done. Smaug was the reason Gandalf was standing there. The treasure of Thrain, the Kingdom under the Mountain - these things were Thorin's affair. Smaug was much more. And designing a "suitable end" for him was the one thing that Thorin and the Dwarves never so much as attempted. It took Bilbo's sharp eye, the Thrush's eavesdropping skills, and Bard's black arrow to fashion an end for the dragon.

While in the end, Smaug turned out not to be the dwarves affair, I highly doubt Gandalf expected Bilbo to do anything about him.

Yes, you are correct that in the original Gandalf had to convince the dwarves of the whole burglar thing, but we can't use the original. So, we have to make adjustments.

(Note: Sorry, I didn't finish your comment. Yes, he was concerned about Smaug being a weapon in the hand of Sauron, but remember in our dialogue, he is talking to Thorin . . . to whom he did not and was not going to express his true reasons for concern. Thus in context, his statement is correct.)

[Berephon]

Encyclopedia of Arda has an entry for Curunir.
http://www.encyclopedia-of-arda.com/c/curunir.html

Is there a material difference between Corunir and Curinir as far as the translation? (I use the Arda reference for convenience, but it isn't primary source, so maybe there is an error with that entry.)

Only reason I recalled this was that I thought "cunning" was applied to Saruman using the more negative connotation (e.g., guile, wily, deceptive) and thought that was a very cool and clever detail.

Tangent question about Enc. of Arda - is it still in the works for integration with the Lorebook (and thus, being accessible from within the game client at some point in the future)?

Yes, there is a difference between Curunir and Corunir. Curunir is "Man of Skill" where "skill" is the skill of a craftsman. Saruman was so named because of his lore and knowledge of great craftsmanship (which is also why he became the foremost expert on Ring-lore). Corunir is "Cunning Man" or "Wily Man," referring instead to cunning or calculating of mind, rather than skill in crafts. We know, of course, that either could apply to Saruman, but Curunir is what the Elves called him.

Corunir is ours.

[Berephon]

This is true, but for the sake of lore i had to put in that this particular Palantir is accounted for, at least partially. It is known that the elves have taken it, and are in possession of it during the war of the ring. During this time it is most likely being held in the elven refuge and port, the Grey Havens. This stone was not connected in power to the other seeing stones, and so Sauron could not corrupt its users. It was used only to peer west, towards the undying lands. Apparently it was taken there on the same boat that carried Frodo, Bilbo, and the others at the end of the Return of the King.

Actually the Elves did not take it during the War of the Ring. The Palantír of Elostirion remained at it's original home in Elostirion (one of the White Towers.) Indeed, Tolkien himself said in his letters that he always assumed that Gildor and company had just been returning from a pilgrimage to the White Towers to look in the palantír when they met Frodo.

As for the palantír being taken into the West, I do not recall that being mentioned anywhere, but I can and have most certainly been mistaken before.

[Berephon]

Actually AUG, the beacons ARE, in fact, in the book. As Gandalf and Pippin are passing through the land of Anorien on their way to Minas Tirith, Pippin spies a fire alight atop the peak of Amon Din. Gandalf spurs Shadowfax forward saying "The beacons of Gondor are alight, calling for aid. War is kindled." (yes, I do have the book open in front of me, heh.) They were simply lit much earlier in the book and the red arrow was used to supplement their call for aid (which Jackson left out of the movie, as the whole "beacon lighting" thing was much more dramatic the way they used it).

You (and the other poster who commented) are of course correct that these could not be those same beacons at all, however.

Indeed, the beacons of Gondor were not a beacon chain to Rohan . . . they were to call the peoples of Anórien to Minas Tirith (which we see the muster in the books.) The Red Arrow was the summons to Rohan. Good catch.

[Carfilhiot]

Hang on, I'm confused here. Is the 'quoted' bit there with the red text quoting you, the book, or someone else's post?

The quote with the red text is the sequence of dialog spoken by the Gandalf and Thorin NPC's in the dwarf intro. If you stand there after entering the game and listen, you'll see the whole conversation.

[Carfilhiot]

Berephon, I accept that you had to make changes for the sake of licensing and continuity within the LOTRO universe... and I really love that you are lore conscious enough to tackle this stuff in detail and to have thought about it, even if you have to depart from some of the lore at the end of the day.

My copy of The Annotated Hobbit is out west at the moment, but I found a copy of "The Quest of Erebor" online here (bless our Russian brothers). I'm afraid I must stick with one thing, namely that Gandalf already knew he wanted Bilbo on the quest before he visited Thorin in his halls that second time. The text is reasonably clear. But it is a minor thing.

Congratulations on an amazing job overall.

[Wolfpack75]

This is true. If you look at the new LoTRO Google Map feature and zoom out, the missing area is obvious: http://lorebook.lotro.com/wiki/Frodo...h_to_Rivendell. It's pretty huge (bigger than The Shire, I'd say).

Wow,

I love this thread!

And thank you for pointing out that Ered Luin and the Shire don't connect...I was stunned when I looked at the map and now I wonder what it could be. Perhaps the white towers? The western expansion that was eventually given to the hobbits by Aragorn?

Wasn't one of the grey havens near there?

I will let the rest of you tell me as I know I am not as up on the lore as it seems everyone else is.

I need to reread those books.

[Eothain]

Actually the Elves did not take it during the War of the Ring. The Palantír of Elostirion remained at it's original home in Elostirion (one of the White Towers.) Indeed, Tolkien himself said in his letters that he always assumed that Gildor and company had just been returning from a pilgrimage to the White Towers to look in the palantír when they met Frodo.

And I just want to note (since at least one Turbine person is reading this thread) that when we get an update that adds the White Towers to the map, our characters had better be able to climb Elostirion and look through the palantír. Otherwise I will cry. It's the #1 thing I've been hoping to eventually do in the game since before beta.

Cry, I tell you.

[steelsnake]

From my first day in LOTRO, I felt right at home. My highlights were the shire with the party tree, Sandyman's mill and all the little details all over the place. Having played MERP forever (without being a total lore nut) it all felt "right", and to this day it still feels "right". This depiction of Middle Earth is where I want to live. It's beautiful.

[phaelan2]

I'm afraid I must stick with one thing, namely that Gandalf already knew he wanted Bilbo on the quest before he visited Thorin in his halls that second time. The text is reasonably clear. But it is a minor thing.

Congratulations on an amazing job overall.

But that is what Berephon said; he had to convince Thorin that he should take a burglar along -- he just hadn't talked to Bilbo himself about it yet.

Yes, Gandalf new he wanted Bilbo before he went to Thorin; but Bilbo didn't know it himself at that point.

[Ulfbrandr]

My favorite detail is the constellations, as was said earlier. When I first saw them, in open beta, I was hooked and knew I was in a place where attention to detail and love of the lore was important. Look in the night sky for the brighter, bluish stars. The three identifiable constellations mentioned in the books are all there.

Directly north, you'll see Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar, our Big Dipper.

To the east, you'll see Menelvagor, the Swordsman of the Sky, our Orion.

And just above and to the right of Menelvagor, you'll see a small bunch of bright stars. They are Remmirath, the Netted Stars, our Pleiades.


One of the little things which also made me laugh is the hobbit farmer working in the field just outside and south of the Combe gate of Bree. Pay attention when you pass him by. He'll either say something along the lines of, "Don't just stand there, you can help" or he'll say something which never ceases to make me smile as I pass:

"What are you supposed to be, some kind of, <<insert your class here>>?"

[Eothain]

My favorite detail is the constellations, as was said earlier. When I first saw them, in open beta, I was hooked and knew I was in a place where attention to detail and love of the lore was important. Look in the night sky for the brighter, bluish stars. The three identifiable constellations mentioned in the books are all there.

Directly north, you'll see Valacirca, the Sickle of the Valar, our Big Dipper.

To the east, you'll see Menelvagor, the Swordsman of the Sky, our Orion.

And just above and to the right of Menelvagor, you'll see a small bunch of bright stars. They are Remmirath, the Netted Stars, our Pleiades.

And these all really are star formations visible in the Northern Hemisphere during winter (LOTRO's plot spans roughly September through December).

[Percilus]

The Stable-Master in bree is named Bill Rosewood.

That's the name of Judge Reinhold's police character in the Beverly Hills Cop series.

[Carfilhiot]

(Note: Sorry, I didn't finish your comment. Yes, he was concerned about Smaug being a weapon in the hand of Sauron, but remember in our dialogue, he is talking to Thorin . . . to whom he did not and was not going to express his true reasons for concern. Thus in context, his statement is correct.)

I just noticed this addendum. In the cheery spirit of a fellow lore-lover, I will risk a direct quote (viva Fair Use!):

"Thorin was contemptuous and suspicious. 'He is soft,' he snorted. 'Soft as the mud of his Shire, and silly. His mother died too soon. You are playing some crooked game of your own, Master Gandalf. I am sure that you have other purposes than helping me.

"'You are quite right,' I said. 'If I had no other purposes, I should not be helping you at all. Great as your affairs may seem to you, they are only a small strand in the great web. I am concerned with many strands. But that should make my advice more weighty, not less.' I spoke at last with great heat. 'Listen to me, Thorin Oakenshield !' I said. 'If this hobbit goes with you, you will succeed. If not, you will fail. A foresight is on me, aid I am warning you.'

So while Gandalf would not have wanted to spell out his true concerns to anyone but Elrond (wisely) and Saruman (unwisely), he was at least willing to admit to Thorin that there were true concerns reaching beyond the dwarf's ambition. He did not, in other words, pretend that this was nothing but a treasure hunt. "Smaug is your affair" rings wrong to my ears in this context. But it's nicely written nonetheless!

[darkchronus]

But that is what Berephon said; he had to convince Thorin that he should take a burglar along -- he just hadn't talked to Bilbo himself about it yet.

Yes, Gandalf new he wanted Bilbo before he went to Thorin; but Bilbo didn't know it himself at that point.

I just played the dwarf intro for the first time (which is surprising since I've played since way early on in beta... alpha 2 I think). That was exactly how I understood it when I was watching. I stood there until I was sure that all their dialog was done. I thought it was so cool they were referencing the stuff that was pre- "Hobbit"!

[Berephon]

And I just want to note (since at least one Turbine person is reading this thread) that when we get an update that adds the White Towers to the map, our characters had better be able to climb Elostirion and look through the palantír. Otherwise I will cry. It's the #1 thing I've been hoping to eventually do in the game since before beta.

Cry, I tell you.

That's been on my list of lore-requests for that area since I started with Turbine. I honestly don't know what the plans are for the area yet, but access to the palantír is definitely on my list of hot lore-bits -- maybe as part of a quest arc.

[Berephon]

Berephon, I accept that you had to make changes for the sake of licensing and continuity within the LOTRO universe... and I really love that you are lore conscious enough to tackle this stuff in detail and to have thought about it, even if you have to depart from some of the lore at the end of the day.

My copy of The Annotated Hobbit is out west at the moment, but I found a copy of "The Quest of Erebor" online here (bless our Russian brothers). I'm afraid I must stick with one thing, namely that Gandalf already knew he wanted Bilbo on the quest before he visited Thorin in his halls that second time. The text is reasonably clear. But it is a minor thing.

Congratulations on an amazing job overall.

Thank you! And thank you for challenging me . . . I love lore discussions. It makes me happy to observe the sheer number of players who actually care.

We have so many Doom-and-Gloom threads (admittedly handily slapped down by the player-community at large ) that it's nice to see more constructive ones like this.