Game System: Tavern Revelries

[Hayoo]

Wow. Thank you, everyone.

[Dwarflord]

In addition to my other addition, maybe we can get a special bonus at special events (parties, etc.). For example, Turbine could make it so that every month, there's a party at the Party Tree. When you're at the Party Tree during the party, the merriment icon's backround will be light blue instead of green. This will be called, "Enhanced Merriment". When it's at this state, a few things will happen. First, you will gain Merriment at a faster rate. Second, Something different will happen when your Enhanced Merriment bar is entirly full. The Merriment icon will start to glow light blue. The Merriment wheel will as do the same, and the icons for each buff will be enhanced looking. When you're at this state, all of the buffs will be enhanced greatly. In addition, they will last for 12-24 hours (Turbine will decide on the time). It makes sense that you get the most merriment at parties/special events. I think this will be a great addition to the Merriment system, and will bring the LOTRO community for one big great party! This will apply to not only parties at the Party Tree, but everywhere in Middle-Earth (except orc parties, they're different). Again, I hope Merriemnt's added to the game, it's VERY well thought out.

[bittersnap]

I dont know anything about programming or game development so i have no idea how difficult this type of system would be to impliment. It would be great to hear from a dev on this idea. I relize they cant reply to all the suggestions put forward but this one imo deserves a little dev feedback. I noticed that the new cloak suggestion was replied to. That was great as it explained why they couldnt add those types of cloaks, shame but at least we now know. Anyway wonderfull job Hayoo

[RalphDamiani]

Brilliant idea. I hope someone from Turbine sees this.

[Laire]

Oh man. This is so brilliant.

We already know that things can be done with other players in the relative area due to those "forced" emotes that champs and captains and others can do... we already know that fellowships can pull manuveurs... who is to say that this could not happen? It would take some creativity on the coder's end... but MAN. This is SO awesome.

[Taste_Tester]

I think this is a great idea, Hayoo, and it's brilliantly illustrated. I especially like your choices of key words for the system - Revelry, Merriment, tussle. They fit the spirit of the game world pefectly.

I agree with speaksoftly that making all the wheels and gears mesh in game would be the tricky part. Moreso because you are suggesting that the Revelries grant buffs that apply to the "serious" aspect of the game - fighting mobs. This makes balancing it a *lot* more critical - a lot harder for Turbine. It's also something I'm not sure about in theory, since it makes revelries a serious mechanic, one forcused on the main play mechanic of "beating" the game, disguised as an play/RP mechanic.

This is not to say that doing it this way is not the best choice since it insures that a larger part of the playerbase enjoys and uses the system. But an alternative would be if the Revelries provided social/RP benefits rather than serious ones. For example, a dance revelry resulting in a special series of synconous dance steps for the Fellowship, or a tussle revelry giving the participants a couple of special emotes of "hand to hand combat" moves for a minute of so - like some wirework spin in mid-air for example.

Allowing non-Fellowship/Raid players in the vicinity of the group to join in the revelries seems to me to be the trickiest part in terms of implementation. Even if Turbine could develop a mechanic for non-fellowship members that would sort out which of 2 or 3 Fellowships doing a revelry in the same location at about the same time they were part of, there is still the problem of players who are in the middle of something else and don't want to be involved. Those just passing through and on the way out, or those in the middle of another interaction - a trade, re-arranging their traits with the bard, and so forth. My feeling is that the bast way for non-members to "participate" is to act as members of the audience and enjoy the show. This would especially true if the revelries resulted in special emotes, dance moves and the like. Not as wide reaching, but probably more achievable.

[Hayoo]

I think this is a great idea, Hayoo, and it's brilliantly illustrated. I especially like your choices of key words for the system - Revelry, Merriment, tussle. They fit the spirit of the game world pefectly.

Thank you.

I agree with speaksoftly that making all the wheels and gears mesh in game would be the tricky part. Moreso because you are suggesting that the Revelries grant buffs that apply to the "serious" aspect of the game - fighting mobs. This makes balancing it a *lot* more critical - a lot harder for Turbine. It's also something I'm not sure about in theory, since it makes revelries a serious mechanic, one forcused on the main play mechanic of "beating" the game, disguised as an play/RP mechanic.

No disguises. All serious. It is meant to be part of the larger game of adventuring, not a pastime or roleplaying side-game. Countless times in Tolkien's tales there is the gathering of the heroes before the send-off. This is meant to mirror that. But in the interest of not competing with the hard-won skills and items we already have, I would like these Maneuver buffs to be small even though they can last a while. Such as a 0.5% buff to Maneuver Heals over 20min. These already exist as Racial traits you earn, but Revelries are only temporary and require activation in certain locations.

This is not to say that doing it this way is not the best choice since it insures that a larger part of the playerbase enjoys and uses the system. But an alternative would be if the Revelries provided social/RP benefits rather than serious ones. For example, a dance revelry resulting in a special series of synconous dance steps for the Fellowship, or a tussle revelry giving the participants a couple of special emotes of "hand to hand combat" moves for a minute of so - like some wirework spin in mid-air for example.

What you suggest is already part of this system, but is not the central reason for revelries. The more dance-centric revelries you unlock are put towards a Dance "Deed" of sorts. Once you reach the required number of unlocks, you get the dance as a skill. The other actions also have these Deed-ish bonuses.

Allowing non-Fellowship/Raid players in the vicinity of the group to join in the revelries seems to me to be the trickiest part in terms of implementation.

Other Fellowships/Raids are not counted toward your Fellowship's revelries, only the number of participants involved in the Tavern. So your group can largely ignore everyone else, but you still get a slight bonus for being in the proximity of others while reveling at a Tavern.

Even if Turbine could develop a mechanic for non-fellowship members that would sort out which of 2 or 3 Fellowships doing a revelry in the same location at about the same time they were part of, there is still the problem of players who are in the middle of something else and don't want to be involved. Those just passing through and on the way out, or those in the middle of another interaction - a trade, re-arranging their traits with the bard, and so forth.

No one who does not want to be involved in a revelry has to partake of it. They can disable the merriment meter so it never shows up for them. It's kind of like the Assist icon for Maneuvers. If you never click on it, you aren't part of the Maneuver. So it is not a problem.

My feeling is that the bast way for non-members to "participate" is to act as members of the audience and enjoy the show. This would especially true if the revelries resulted in special emotes, dance moves and the like. Not as wide reaching, but probably more achievable.

Oh, they can do that too if they like. Recall how at times everyone in the Auction Hall will suddenly give a cheer for no apparent reason. Bystanders will view the same thing as a Revelry is accomplished.

Some bystanders may actually wish to activate their Merriment meter and receive at least a small buff to one of their attributes or try to unlock a dance without being part of a fellowship. The system will take the actions of these non-grouped participating bystanders (remember to particpate you must have another player targeted and you must activate the merriment meter) and try to group them in two-of-a-kind and three-of-a-kind and so on. This allows solo players to gain maneuver buffs should they later join a fellowship, but a Fellowship will have way more control over complex combos to receive the more potent buffs. But in any case, the more people in the Tavern that participate in any Revelry nearby, the longer the buff for every participant lasts. Almost like a "lasting memory" of happier times that sustain you through your trials to come.

I see this system as a way to rev yourselves up. You run to the Tavern, join in a Revelry, then ride off to your adventure. When the Maneuver buffs fade, and you are deep in the wild and do not wish to waste time going back to a settlement, you can attempt a revelry with your fellowship around a campfire you have made....just like in the books. It is akin to everyone eating food and using Hope tokens right before a fight, except this makes it into a game with small buffs but which can last much longer.

Oh, and campfires and house revelries can be locked to the owner's fellowship or raid to avoid random yahoos running up to every campfire they see without invitation.

[Kilmor1]

too funny, this IS a great idea and sooo well put together that when I was reading it I thought it was going in to the game in book 11 with player housing. What a awsome use for the taverns, and a perfect reason for players to gather and try to interact on a more social level. Good work

[Westernesse]

I like it, now if only we can get it implemented

[lazjen]

I must admit that I like the idea, even if it didn't give (much, if any) in game bonuses.

/signed

[Cubrethil]

Great idea Hayoo.

[Kilmor1]

I like this idea alot would be great to see it go in with book 11

[Syrith]

I like this idea, and would love to see something like this implemented.

[Beery]

Who is the developer who might be able to get this looked at seriously? Is there any way to get developers interested and moving on this?

[Whitestones]

Hayoo, it's a brilliant idea! I like many others here have been thoroughly impressed by how well-put together this concept is.

Nothing much else to add truthfully, but the idea of being able to gather about a Hunter-created campfire in the wastelands of Angmar and keep the gathering darkness at bay by song, tales, even a dance-step or two...

Ah, my RP-funnybone is twitching!

/signed

My two coppers... *plink*plink*

[Hayoo]

I hope Turbine gives this idea some thought. It will do wonders for LOTRO. It's an extremly well thought out idea, plus it gives a reason to go to Taverns (Inns). Maybe also some racial traits to increase some of them even further. Each time they use a certain buff that's their "Specialty" it increase the effectivness of the buff, and can even make the group version of the buff even more effective. These would be the kind of revilries each race trait would effect:

Dwarves: Drinking and Tussling
Hobbits: Feasting and smoking
Elves: Music and dancing
Men: Greetings and Tales

This would expand it even more. Keep up the good work!

/signed

I missed your post before so I am replying here. Thankyou for the kind words. I like your idea for Racial traits in revelries. As tricky as the entire concept is to balance (what with buffs, duration, cost, etc), more customization of some sort among players would be nice.

I would add a third trait for each though so that there is some overlap among all of the races. The buff difference would probably need to be slight, so as not to "gimp" certain races, but it adds a nice sense of uniqueness. I have to keep in mind that the races already have Traits toward Maneuver buffs, so these would either be more subtle buffs or increase your chances to unlocking certain 'Deeds' for each action (e.g. certain Gift revelries will reward players with small wind-up toys of Dale- or Dwarf-make such as at Bilbo's party).

Just off the top of my head I would probably add these traits to your list:

Dwarves: Drinking, Tussling, and Music
Hobbits: Feasting, Smoking, and Drinking
Elves: Music, Dancing, and Tales
Men: Greetings, Tales, and Feasting

...or something like that. It would depend on the economic impact since many of the actions require using crafted items. All of the buffs will have to be balanced against the out-of-pocket expenses. We wouldn't want one race having to spend more than the others to activate their specialty buffs.

Your Party Events ideas sound like fun. I can see that being added for special occasions.

[thrassoss]

/signed
An amazingly well done post, absolutely amazing.

[twiceagain]

Make it so.

/signed

[Neithan]

Awesome idea, no doubt - but looks like wishful thinking.

[Gwyharl]

Not flaming, but I don't really get it. I'm picturing SWG where you'd run into the cantina, get your 10 min buffs, and run out. There was no comradery or community building lol.

"(AFK)BilboBot says: Minstrels buffing at the Pony! Tips welcome! Send tell for auto-invite!"

If they were to have something like this, I'd suggest having some "bad" and "neutral/unexpected" outcomes also. At least there'd be a bit of risk to make it more interesting.

I could maybe see something like this as a roleplay feature, but I'm wary about good buffs because I've seen other games where you basically felt like you had to have them. (and you did have to have them for PvP). Then they started balancing difficult PvE content around the buffs, assuming all the players always had them up (which they did).


p.s. alot of folks need no extra encouragement to spam emotes at the Inns

[daPoppa]

Brilliant idea! make it so

[Hayoo]

Interesting concerns. I will try to address them as I can.

Not flaming, but I don't really get it. I'm picturing SWG where you'd run into the cantina, get your 10 min buffs, and run out. There was no comradery or community building lol.

SWG had one class that provided emote-style buffs and it was more a solo service using the /watch feature. It wasn't interactive, and so most of the Entertainers were AFK since you could easily get XP that way. Even the new system they're working up, where an Entertainer crafts a person's requested buffs on the spot doesn't even come close to what Revelries are.

Revelries require no class, award no XP, and is based around the Merriment Level of the locations, which in turn is increased by the actions and cooperation of participants. It isn't meant to force the building of communities, but it does require more coordination for the rewards. You can't make camaraderie happen, and this system doesn't claim to do so, any more than Maneuvers do. It only tries to make cooperation fun, and reward players for it.

Addressing concerns of buff-and-run type players, I could suggest that the maneuver buffs only last so long as you're in a fellowship/raid group, although link-deaths and hiccups do happen. Perhaps they could only last so long outside of a group, like 5min, to give time for the player to get back in, but not long enough for someone to grab the maneuver buff and run, hoping to fellowship with others later. The minor buffs the players could keep.

"(AFK)BilboBot says: Minstrels buffing at the Pony! Tips welcome! Send tell for auto-invite!"

If they were to have something like this, I'd suggest having some "bad" and "neutral/unexpected" outcomes also. At least there'd be a bit of risk to make it more interesting.

The mechanics don't work like that, so no negatives or neutrals are needed. There is no buffing class for Revelries. The feature creates potential for spontaneous gatherings, revving up the Merriment with your time and consumption of crafted items, and then being rewarded for your group efforts.

As for charging Tips, it would be like a Burglar charging Tips for starting Fellowship Maneuvers. Yeah, I think we can all agree that would be a ridiculous thing for them to do. It would be pretty pointless for Revelries, considering that any Fellowship can create one around a campfire or in their own home.

I could maybe see something like this as a roleplay feature, but I'm wary about good buffs because I've seen other games where you basically felt like you had to have them. (and you did have to have them for PvP). Then they started balancing difficult PvE content around the buffs, assuming all the players always had them up (which they did).

Thankfully these buffs are only for PvE content, and PvP buff-maxing doesn't enter the equation. And this is just my opinion, but I doubt Turbine would gear future content around this as a blind man could see this would put the fun out of it completely. The entire system screams optional, although some will try to peg it as mandatory.

There are some players out there who feel that any adventuring buff, no matter how it is received and no matter the cost, must be acquired to "maximize" their character to the game's limit. Such players cannot be used to validate optional systems. To them there is no such thing as an optional system if it can give them an edge somewhere. They will complain if the buff is in only one location, claiming it makes them go there. They will complain if the good buffs require other players, claiming it forces them to group. They will complain if the buff requires an item, claiming it makes them spend money. These players will always feel they have to have the best buffs available no matter what it is, and will hate the devs and the game for "making" them get it.

These players would be missing the point of this concept. Revelries are openly geared towards helping with Fellowship Maneuvers, not mini-maxing characters. If they're out for personal buffs they'd be wasting their time, and everyone would know it. The side buffs aren't enough to warrant buff-bots, much less charge for them. Instead they are meant as a small thank you for participating in the group event.

There are other buffs to maneuvers already out there, such as Racial Traits, class skills, consumable items. Revelries are but one piece of a puzzle.

p.s. alot of folks need no extra encouragement to spam emotes at the Inns

The system isn't designed to encourage emote spamming. It's designed to let players have fun working together to gain rewards.

It should be noted that this is but one aspect of a wider system involving Taverns that I'm cooking up to better utilize these locations, to make them a viable option for adventurers and crafters to visit before heading out to adventure, to be as natural as checking your mail or the auctions.

[M_Vague24]

I really, really love this idea. Very well thought out. Turbine really should consider adding you to their staff...no joke there.

Long lasting, lower benefit buffs from simple R'n'R. A great idea.

I sincerely hope the devs read this thread, and implement it.

Again, thumbs-up sir.

[Baresira]

/signed again.

Some good ideas here.

[Miz_Sparrow]

Hayoo, you win the internet.

/gawk
/signed
/bow


By the way,

Comments about heightened merriment at parties and about race focuses on different aspects of merriment

I think the race bonuses for merriment are an excellent addition. Without going into any technical details, I also appreciated the comments earlier about this being more of a "spiritual" boost and potentially affecting hope; I think in terms of immersion / imagining yourself really living in LOTRO world, if you had happy revelries like this to draw on during times of dread and despair, it would certainly give hope and encouragement.

Furthermore, when *I* walk into a party I'm pretty much "merry" as soon as they open the door and I see all my buddies in there. It makes sense that at a big preorganized party/event that merriment would go up instantly and stay up for a while after leaving.

One other thing that I thought of was that it would be nice that if a revelry bonus was on, your fellowship got a longer amount of time to complete their fellowship maneuver. Particularly if there was something calculating how long you had been under the influence of a revelry bonus, and your bonus to response time increased proportionately. (e.g., you've been in a 6-person group with a bonus on for 30 minutes, you get a 50% time bonus extending how long you have to select your conjunction entries - in the same group that has had a bonus for 60 minutes, you get a 100% time bonus [twice as long as normal] for 5 minutes, you get a 5% time bonus)


Thinking of it in terms of.... in real life, the better you know AND get along with your coworkers, the more successful you will be, and the better you can trust them, etc. You can't be merry if you don't get along; conversely, if you've been merry for an hour you must be getting along great!

So if you're doing a fellowship maneuver, you have a better chance of succeeding because you're closer, more trusting, better at cooperating, etc. Well, that's how it is in the characters' world; in the real world, as a player trying to hit a mouse button or a hotkey macro, you have a better chance of succeeding because you have more time to discuss it and then respond appropriately.

Hm, it's not coming out sounding exactly as convincing as it seemed in my head, but I'm not the tactical genius here, either. Perhaps someone can take this skeleton of an idea and flesh it out more attractively....