Player Moderators / Player Game Masters

[Marancil]

Sounds like an open application already

It's a BAD idea in the broadest sense to give players power of a forum or game in whatever sense. Besides the legal problems, this will lead to several other issues. Seeing the current community, do you really expect a raid forum with a player mod to be an open discussion platform going back and forth with ideas?? lol, I can see the first claims of people being deleted for not being a friend already (true or not, it's gonna happen). This means instead of saving time, cord & co will now spend many hours looking into those complaints and finding if its true or not. And thats only 1 problem I can think of. Look, we've seen a pro doing the same stuff... Sapiens, it was his job and he just deleted post due to favouratism or handed out infrags at will. A new player will be taken the sapiense abuse to the next level... Result: cordovan & co can hire extra hands to sort through all the complaints. Its a terrible idea of the worst kind, it's bad beyond words this idea. In good times I would've had a different position probably (moria/mirkwood times) but currently it's just bad.

Maybe

You are not wrong, but I have higher hopes for this to work than you. As for legalities, sure there are a few to consider and they must be addressed somehow, we had death threats to developers due to balance issues (the guy threatened to take his life on a live video feed), lengthy posts about how they want to put down this or that head of state (which always leads to an investigation by US authorities), and devs having to explain stuff to the publishers because the publishers got an upset call from someone who did not like the answer (even if correct) they got at the forum, and went all bazooka with some executive at the publishers office.

So yeah, been there, done that a bit. In order to prevent this there must be rules and guidelines and a clear definition of responsibilities, no obvious liaisons to any given group of players and a clear sens of objectivity. Which may rule out 80% of the forum population, perhaps?

If I tell a player that the game will not work without DirectX9.C installed and he goes all bananas about "that is antique tech and I have W10 and I will not downgrade my system and you suck and I want to have contact with a bloody developer or CIO to sack you and throw you out for incompetence!!!" then you need to have a documented, approved, FAQ or documentation to lean on and explain to the dear gentlehobbit what actually goes. Humbly and patiently. Escalations are sometimes hard to avoid and, again, if the guy who answered this post was in any way bad for the game or for the publisher or for the devs, for no valid reason, his career as voluntary supporter is over.

[Madmanthief]

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...stomer-Service


I'm certain that someone will say something rude to me about this link, that said I'm hoping that there will be more GM's hired in coming weeks to deal with the situation of in game moderation so that things can be answered at a more reasonable rate.

[Spilo]

Either state your sources or stop posting this drivel.

Don't waste your time. As he's established on other threads, Enesoulas isn't interested in discussion or furthering a topic, so direct questions will receive no response. Expect Rabbit Trails laced with Red Herrings that serve no purpose.

[GregJL]

My sources say that the last PC (PvE and PvP one) did have influence to the developing team.

I mean, some members were authorized by the developers themselves to advice them and in some cases they did had an important role as far as development decisions are concerned.

This is a fact that led on some serious mistakes.

.


Here is another example

• Player creates Suggestion thread about open world PvP
• Devs get in on it saying how Angmar and Forochel were planned to have select open PvP events because they were deigned with just the 1 entrance and outting the warning up at the entrance would allow this
• 4 people... yes count them 4 2 roleplayers and 2 muscians threw tantrums and I mean tantrums that "what if we want to quest there" or :what if we want to farm ore there" on the event dates
• the rest of the active members replied with "there are other areas to quest or gather ore or role play or do concerts or whatever this is something the community would want"
• 4 people threaten to get kins to quit and disrupt YES THEY THREATENED TO DISRUPT any open world PvMP event.
• Guess what never happend because even though the devs had POSITIVE FEEDBACK from 8-12 people... 4 got it shut down because they wanted to role play in Angmar on those days... But hey those 4 same people cried so much about stages we now have hundreds of them in Middle earth that no one uses. So that was an amazing use of developer time eh

So yeah, and I am sure Nymph will back me up on both of those scenarios. Your source is wrong

Kick is totally spot on. I even had someone PM while I was in the PC, told me not to let the people flaming me get me down, and was wondering if I was ok from all the abuse. And once I asked a question, my thread got locked without an answer to my question while being told to only post things appropriate for the PC. And this was while all the flaming and drama went unmoderated.

It was like the PC had it's own version of Malfoy with Crabbe and Goyle from Harry Potter in the forums.

And the entire month without one blue name posting. IN THE FEEDBACK FORUM. And they appeared all of a sudden and said "we were busy guys".

Oh, and not finding out who got a paid trip to Turbine until they were already there. And that was while I was in the PC.

And the final message at the end of the year that the NDA would not be lifted with no communication as to why. If I remember correctly, that thread was locked so no one could reply to it. Well, I'm gonna break the NDA right now. There were no secrets or anything like that. It was one entire year of mudslinging, players telling other players what they could and could not say, and long periods of silence from blue names. That's it in a nutshell. There, everyone knows what went on that year. No wonder the NDA wasn't lifted, what went on did not put Turbine in a good light.

The total lack of communication was unreal.




Sorry for the rant, I just had such a horrible experience during that year, and I get worked up anytime someone tries to defend that disaster. When it comes to the Player Council, my reaction is GOOD RIDDANCE.

Except kick's second example is a perfect illustration of what Grego28's sources told him. Some few players on the PC influenced the devs in a completely negative way.

[Nymphonic]

https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...stomer-Service


I'm certain that someone will say something rude to me about this link, that said I'm hoping that there will be more GM's hired in coming weeks to deal with the situation of in game moderation so that things can be answered at a more reasonable rate.

Oh, I would love for more OFFICIAL GM's to get hired. It's bringing players into the mix that I have an issue with. Players should not have any sort of moderation powers whatsoever in a game.

[kickman77]

Either state your sources or stop posting this drivel.

.
He has none and is just going by the same drivel that got passed around from the time the PC started. Everyone knows who was on all 3 PCs, so he is not protecting anyone from violating any NDA or anything.

Except kick's second example is a perfect illustration of what Grego28's sources told him. Some few players on the PC influenced the devs in a completely negative way.

.
except he says "some were authorized by turbine" which no one was. Everyone had an equal voice, they just chose not to listen to majority of them. Because they made stages which is after 2 years the only example I can think of where Turbine used a suggestion from the PC it validates his point?

As far as Greg goes it makes me laugh. I do not need to defend my 2 years on the PC because nothing we could have done would have stopped the ball from rolling. If you think that than please, share whatever you are smoking. What I do do however is set the record straight when people make this outrageous claims of what the PC was when it reality it was nothing of the sort..... than you fall back on 1 comment like they made 4 stages. How about the HUNDREDS of pages of feedback and suggestions that were ignored. lets see, the Beorn, trait trees, epic battles, (all of which we could not even test until the same beta all other players were), the Osgiliath PvMP map.. All Major failures in the game that well, because they had the PC, we get blaimed for. Well here is the simple truth... we were told the same thing the rest of the community was. These are coming, deal with them. No amount of feedback was goijg to change that. But, we tried, oh lord did we try. Try to the point that some members quit the game all together and still have yet to return.

But it is all good. if he feels the need to blame a group of players over Turbines failures as a company fine. The truth has set me free. Whats really funny is I go back and look at those forums and see some of the ideas we had for lotro and wonder what would the game be like if they actually used the PC for what it was intended for. So many good ideas. So many wasted hours of people typing them up. Sad irony

[siipperi]

Believe it or not, the PC is the best example why SSG should not give such power/influence to the developing team ever again.

Period.

[kickman77]

Whatever!

Since you say so!

And, again, I will not reveal my allies, no matter how much you and some others force me to do so.

Believe whatever you want about this and be happy.

Period.





Yes, all the previous lines is a very clear and apparent attempt of yours to defend your two-year presence in the PC, in my opinion.

And that is why you sound as if you need to apologize yourself somehow....

Let the rest aside!

Believe it or not, the PC is the best example why SSG should not give such power/influence to the developing team ever again.

Period.

.
and there you go again failing reading comprehension 101. Maybe you should ask your Sooper Sekret mega Source that knows all to explain it to you since apparently yu trust every word they say yet negate people who have actual experience.... (Serously its like this guy gos to a doctor and says prescribe me these meds cause I have a source that knows more than you even though you are a dr.)

What we are trying to tell you is The PC is not to blame because ZERO of out feedback was used at all. We, the PC ask people to at least point fingers in the right direction which was Turbine. But, you refuse to comprehend that and wish to continue on with drivel.

Oh wait I need to sound cool. I have a source and they tell me your source is completely wrong

[kickman77]

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahahahahahahahahahaha... this should be posted under every one of his post in this thread

[Spilo]

How would you possibly know?!

Oh, wait; I forgot that you are one of the known LOTRO forums "bigheads".

Guess what, mr. "bighead"; you have way things to discover yet!

Last I checked, the bighead would be the one who thinks his hear-say from an unnamed source is enough to counter the actual word of people who are on the PC, to the point to where you won't even counter their arguments. You're LOTRO's first unwitting troll, congratulations.

[Eruadarion]

Believe it or not, the PC is the best example why SSG should not give such power/influence to any player/user ever again.

I was part of the PvE PC 2015 (we were active till mid 2016 tho) and I would like to tell you all a couple of things:

1. From what I've heard and read from members of the previous two PCs, the atmosphere in the 2015 PvE PC was quite different. No flaming, bashing, hating,.. etc. No Turbine fanbois vs. forum haters wars... nothing like that. Only good, reasonable and respectful discussions.
2. No, we were not offered paid trips to Boston, unique forum titles, Turbine Points or anything similar. All of our work was completely voluntary and we didn't get anything special in return. Even after one PC member asked for some special rewards for PC members literally everyone else disagreed and said it was I bad idea and being on the council itself should be enough of a reward.
3. Yes, there was Dev interaction and yes I do feel like we did have an influence on some decisions. I'm going to give you some examples:
   - We were asked what we would like to see in a potential new raid. This was probably the biggest topic we had in that year. I was strongly advocating for 5+ bosses in one single raid, raid locks and a classic loot system for T2. What's particularly interesting to me is the fact that it was actually me suggesting the raid should be on the Pelennor fields featuring 6 bosses in total, e.g. 1 huge troll boss, 3 Mumakil, a Nazgul boss and Gothmog as final encounter. In retrospective this choice of setting and bosses might be kind of obvious, still, we were asked about a potential new raid in autumn 2015, so in very early planning stage and the question we were asked was literally: "What's in a raid?" without any further specifications. So I might be wrong but like to believe that we actually did have a significant influence and I'm quite happy with the outcome. If all PC members agreed that a lair-style raid (e.g. encountering Shelob) would be sufficient and we prefer personal loot and no locks over classic loot with raids locks... I can't say for sure but my guess is that the outcome could have been quite different (=worse).
   - We were asked about what classes should be revamped next. Our answer was that blue line Minstrels and Guardian aggro mechanics would need some love because we feel like these classes' gameplay is too simple to be fun. Unfortunately we were told later that these class revamps are not going to happen (because of the lack of dev ressources, I guess).
   - We suggested that something has finally to be done about the lag in raid situations caused buffs/debuffs on your target. This was suggested earlier in the public forums but it's interesting that only a couple of weeks after we discussed it on the PC forums, the option to turn off target effects was implemented.
   - Other topics we were asked for feedback were Featured Instances, Mitigation and Mastery changes (new mastery cap, medium armour needs less mitigation to reach cap), Slayer deed changes (the required number of kills got nerfed), Scrolls of Empowerment Cost reduction, Server consolidations and more... These topics were usually something like: "We (Turbine) want to do this, do you like it? Why / why not?". Needless to say not all of our feedback got listened to, but still, I feel like we did give Turbine some vaulable input.

Do you still really think our work on the PC was THAT bad Grego28? I don't think it was. In fact I feel like especially our feedback on a potential new raid (which turned out the be named Throne of the Dread Terror many months later) was actually important to make the raid a success. And I bet that such civil, reasonable and respectful discussions we had on the raid-topic would not have been possible on the public forums.

Do I think the PC was great and perfect? No I don't and I can understand why some people (both members of previous PCs and people who have never been on a PC) dislike it so much. Still, I'm not going to agree with you that everything the PC was and did was as terrible as you say.

Note that I'm not breaking the NDA talking about all this stuff. One of Cordovans last posts on the PC 2015 forums was him telling us that it's okay to talk about what was discussed on the PC forums.
Also note that I can only speak for the PvE Council. I was neither part of the PvP Council nor had I access to view their discussions.

[mithelenthor]

REPOST - Because this thread is getting way to serious

Frodo: "Take it Gandalf! Take it!"
Gandalf: "No, Frodo."
Frodo: "You must take it!"



Gandalf: "You cannot offer me this Role as Moderator!"
Frodo: "I'm giving it to you!"
Gandalf: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep the chat safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this role from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."



Frodo: "But we cannot stay in the Mire!"
Gandalf: "No! No, we can't."
Gandalf: "Look what happened to the last player moderator"



Frodo: "What must we do?"
Gandalf: “I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo, MoL will know what to do.




Sometimes the answers to your questions are in the very story we love.

[Eruadarion]

Unfortunately, this statement is diametrically opposed to Kickman's opinion :

I think it's important to point out that Kickman was part of the PC 2014 and I was part of the PvE PC 2015.
I can't comment on how things were in previous PCs.

Btw I also don't think Player Moderators or Player Game Masters is a good idea.

[Cordovan]

The discussion about the former Players Council really is off-topic to the point of this discussion. We currently have no plans to create volunteer player moderator or game master positions.

[Marancil]

You forgot the part about Forum Moderation, Mr Cordovan Sir...

[peachykins]

The discussion about the former Players Council really is off-topic to the point of this discussion. We currently have no plans to create volunteer player moderator or game master positions.

Thank you

[Mar-Evayave]

This could potentially work for another game. But this will NOT work for LOTRO. The majority of the LOTRO community is just too immature to handle this sort of power.

TBH... This. *shrug* Player moderators do exist in other games and from what I understand they even can work well. But while the LOTRO community is generally quite welcoming, it is also full of a lot of people who behave like children. This thread is evidence enough.

It has always been my opinion that if any such system could be implemented, it would need to be made so that the greatest harm a moderator could do is hide a post. Not a thread. No ability to apply infractions. Nothing. Simply the ability to hide something. Perhaps require the need to have a certain number of reports already on the post before it can be hidden. Why? To get rid of spam (especially the pornographic type). That way the mods can encourage users to report bad posts like that, and once they get enough reports, the player mod can hide it.

This means that if it wasn't spam, it can be easily unhidden (and the player mod given a boot). If it was spam, it helps keep the forum tidy.

But really, that is about as far as I feel this sort of thing could even remotely be used. Too much of a grey area if it goes much further. We haven't had much spam in a while (dare I say... a very small part of me almost misses the comic relief that players shared when Baba Li visited), but when the porno spam popped up I would have very much been willing to have a 5-minute player mod to get rid of it, instead of waiting the whole weekend for the real mods to be back in the office. Cause we all know the spammers start Friday evening. By the time Monday arrives, the fireworks are either over and in so a state of disarray that it's just disgusting. And even then it could be days before it was all cleaned up.

Frodo: "Take it Gandalf! Take it!"
Gandalf: "No, Frodo."
Frodo: "You must take it!"



Gandalf: "You cannot offer me this Role as Moderator!"
Frodo: "I'm giving it to you!"
Gandalf: "Don't tempt me Frodo! I dare not take it. Not even to keep the chat safe. Understand Frodo, I would use this role from a desire to do good. But through me, it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."



Frodo: "But we cannot stay in the Mire!"
Gandalf: "No! No, we can't."
Gandalf: "Look what happened to the last player moderator"



Frodo: "What must we do?"
Gandalf: “I must see the head of my order. He is both wise and powerful. Trust me Frodo, MoL will know what to do.




Sometimes the answers to your questions are in the very story we love.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! That was so great!

[Requiemslove]

Unsigned.

Player moderation in game would if anything, impact negatively upon it. The onus is on the player what kind of experience they have when playing. Nothing is stopping anyone from deactivating the chat channels. If you want a quiet game, where you never see any text besides your own combat figures, you can. If you can handle the silence, fine. I for one don't mind a lot of the time, the babble in world and whatever. Because I know I can switch it off. I think there are enough safe checks in play. That players have the requisite tools to customise their game, and cut out annoyances. If anything, some use specific features too much. [such as the ignore function...seriously, how many players have knee-jerk reactions to harmless banter?]

Although I do think it is right, that generally speaking the community is more immature. However most of that is harmless immaturity.