Dev Diary Feedback: Hunter Advancement Beyond Level 50!

[DangerDan]

I've seen a number of questions on the basics of Trait Sets, so I thought I'd give a quick explanation of the system. I'm posting this in a couple of places so folks have a good chance of getting the information!

Trait Sets are a lot like Equipment Sets. You get bonuses for slotting multiple traits in the set. In Moria, we've taken all the class traits of each class and grouped them into three sets of 8, in the process adding new traits which you can earn. Each set has bonuses for 2, 3, 4, and 5 traits in the set slotted. The bonuses vary, but center on the theme of the set. The 5th set bonus allows you to slot a special legendary trait, which upgrades one of your new capstone skills into a legendary skill aligned with the focus of the set.

Along with organizing traits into sets and doing some really cool upgrades to the UI and feedback around that, we've added two new Class trait slots and one new Legendary trait slot.

You could slot 5 of one and 2 of another, allowing you to get the Legendary for one. Alternately, you could adopt a hybrid approach and slot 4 of one set and 3 of another getting some of the bonuses from each set. You could slot 2, 2, and 3... you get the idea. Also remember that you will get a third legendary slot and you could choose to put another of your original four Legendaries into the slot if you don't want to go with one of the 5-set bonus Legendaries.

So, the summary:
* Trait Sets are a lot like Equipment Sets
* Each class will have 3 trait sets of 8 traits each, organized around a theme
* There are bonuses for slotting 2, 3, 4, or 5 traits in a set
* Slotting the 5th trait allows you to slot a legendary that upgrades the set's capstone skill
* Each class will have a total of 7 Class trait slots and 3 Legendary trait slots
* Focused and hybrid builds are both viable options

Hopefully that helps outline the general shape of the system... I think that when you get to see it and play with it you'll see even more of the flexibility and specialization it offers.

[mugwy44]

i never run out of power and i am a pew pew junky so what r u all doing wrong

[Flidias]

This is the best news I've read about in 9 months!

Is it so wrong that this news is giving me a woodie?

Elves get woodies? Really? /giggle

[Big_H]

Thanks for the info DangerDan!

[Russano]

I've seen a number of questions on the basics of Trait Sets, so I thought I'd give a quick explanation of the system. I'm posting this in a couple of places so folks have a good chance of getting the information!

Trait Sets are a lot like Equipment Sets. You get bonuses for slotting multiple traits in the set. In Moria, we've taken all the class traits of each class and grouped them into three sets of 8, in the process adding new traits which you can earn. Each set has bonuses for 2, 3, 4, and 5 traits in the set slotted. The bonuses vary, but center on the theme of the set. The 5th set bonus allows you to slot a special legendary trait, which upgrades one of your new capstone skills into a legendary skill aligned with the focus of the set.

Along with organizing traits into sets and doing some really cool upgrades to the UI and feedback around that, we've added two new Class trait slots and one new Legendary trait slot.

You could slot 5 of one and 2 of another, allowing you to get the Legendary for one. Alternately, you could adopt a hybrid approach and slot 4 of one set and 3 of another getting some of the bonuses from each set. You could slot 2, 2, and 3... you get the idea. Also remember that you will get a third legendary slot and you could choose to put another of your original four Legendaries into the slot if you don't want to go with one of the 5-set bonus Legendaries.

So, the summary:
* Trait Sets are a lot like Equipment Sets
* Each class will have 3 trait sets of 8 traits each, organized around a theme
* There are bonuses for slotting 2, 3, 4, or 5 traits in a set
* Slotting the 5th trait allows you to slot a legendary that upgrades the set's capstone skill
* Each class will have a total of 7 Class trait slots and 3 Legendary trait slots
* Focused and hybrid builds are both viable options

Hopefully that helps outline the general shape of the system... I think that when you get to see it and play with it you'll see even more of the flexibility and specialization it offers.

Thank you for the information, DD! I <3 feedback!

I'm still curious about these "capstone" skills you've mentioned. Slotting 5 of a set gives you the option for a Legendary upgrade to the capstone, but I haven't seen where exactly that capstone comes from in the first place. I'd assume it comes from slotting the set as well, but could you didn't mention it specifically as a benefit to 4-slotting a set in the above example.

It sounds like you get both the capstone and the option of the legendary capstone buff from 5-slotting a set, but that's just a guess. Could you clarify how the capstone skills themselves fit into the system?

Thanks again!

-R

[Golledhel]

Thank you for the information, DD! I <3 feedback!

I'm still curious about these "capstone" skills you've mentioned. Slotting 5 of a set gives you the option for a Legendary upgrade to the capstone, but I haven't seen where exactly that capstone comes from in the first place. I'd assume it comes from slotting the set as well, but could you didn't mention it specifically as a benefit to 4-slotting a set in the above example.

It sounds like you get both the capstone and the option of the legendary capstone buff from 5-slotting a set, but that's just a guess. Could you clarify how the capstone skills themselves fit into the system?

Thanks again!

-R

I asked that in the Dev Chat today. The response I got was(roughly), that there were 3 ways of getting the capstone skill. One was from solo gameplay, the 2nd one from instance/epic gameplay, and the 3rd from 6-man instances.

I don't remember what else they said about it. It was quite a long answer. It should appear in the transcript soon.


Edit: here we go

*Golladan* How do capstone skills work? Or rather, how do we acquire them?
I can only answer the part about acquiring them. My good friends in Game Systems will have to tell you how the work.
(typing quickly to explain that part. One moment please!)
There are 3 different capstone traits you will acquire, and each has a different method of acquisition.
One is geared more toward solo gameplay activities, one is acquired via small fellowship / Epic content, and the final through 6 man instance content.
As far as how they work, when you initially receive you capstone skills they will work just like all other skills do.
However, as Keth mentioned, there will be special Legendary Traits that dramatically augment the abilities you gain from those skills (and possibly give you additional bonuses)
Those Legendary Traits will be equipped just like how our current Legendaries are, however...
You will need to have 5 of the Traits from that particular Trait Set equipped to equip the Trait Set specific Legendary as a prerequisite.
So that about sums it up.
Oh, wait!
You'll also be getting access to 1 additional Legendary Trait Slot at level 60

http://community.codemasters.com/for...d.php?t=313458

[LegendaryPunk]

I don't have time for a serious discussion message because I'm at work right now, but I just wanted to say that some of these ideas have me really excited! It appears that devs actually have been listening to the ideas / complaints on the Hunter boards, and taken that information into consideration while crafting 50+ skills.

Kudos to you DangerDan!

[Russano]

I asked that in the Dev Chat today. The response I got was(roughly), that there were 3 ways of getting the capstone skill. One was from solo gameplay, the 2nd one from instance/epic gameplay, and the 3rd from 6-man instances.

I don't remember what else they said about it. It was quite a long answer. It should appear in the transcript soon.


Edit: here we go


http://community.codemasters.com/for...d.php?t=313458

That ... makes no sense to me. You gain capstone skills via a process utterly unrelated to your trait slotting? So the only reason the skills are linked to the trait sets is that you can slot a Legendary to boost a skill you may or may not have if you 5-slot a set? Or can you not use a captsone skill unless you also have some/all of the set slotted?

My head hurts now. I'm back to being unenthused about this system.

-R

[Balthinor]

So maybe there are some great ways that we can all argue about what the new best trait setup is for a hunter, but from where I'm sitting, the Huntsmen set in its entirety and maybe something like Graceful Draw and Deadly Precision would make for an awesome setup.

Let's be honest, it's almost everything we're asking for, and the in-combat heal we're finally getting sounds like an awesome idea, we'll just have adjust to using it a bit sooner than say the Strength of Morale heal. All I know, is that with 7 class traits, it shouldn't be hard to increase CC, survivability, or damage without killing your power costs or focus consumption. I know everyone complains about power but run with an LM and put on more ICPR gear, which I might add, we'll probably be able to slot as a feature on our Legendary bows. Don't get too disappointed yet, this sounds in theory like great progress for our class. Let's wait until release before we officially decide we've been screwed again.

[Tinluen]

I think I may be liking these new pathways. I am considering going heavy on the huntsman with the rest going to bowmaster skills. Focus is a problem, and being able to basically negate that requirement makes me all giddy inside. Couple movement with the strength stance, 40 percent movement debuff, and we can be a very tough opponent when kiting. Add in the more punch for the Bowman traits and this could be very useful in solo, raids and PVMP.

I am a PVMP junky, and movement in key in the moors. I am very curious to see how the new stance the Huntsman gets will play out there. It can also be a lifesaver soloing. I mean this will give us a true kiting ability. Slow the target, keep it slowed, and reduce or even almost negate focus needs.... sign me up! Think about the knockbacks in raids and having to build focus back up, or just getting out of range while still putting reliable AUTOATTACK DPS on the target. That can be nice just to fall back and roam and autoattack while we build back power. Kind of brings back my Everquest days.

Tydalmir

[DangerDan]

That ... makes no sense to me. You gain capstone skills via a process utterly unrelated to your trait slotting? So the only reason the skills are linked to the trait sets is that you can slot a Legendary to boost a skill you may or may not have if you 5-slot a set? Or can you not use a captsone skill unless you also have some/all of the set slotted?

You get each of the three base capstone skills just by leveling. Those skills do not require the legendary trait but neither are they as strong as the version when upgraded with the Legendary Trait.

You earn the legendary trait that improves each through the methods Keth describes. Once you have the Legendary Trait, and slot 5 traits in the set, then you can slot the Legendary Trait and the capstone skill transforms into the Legendary version.

Until you have the Legendary Trait associated with a trait set, it is up to you decide whether you want to slot 5 traits from that set. However, you can still use all three base capstone skills regardless of the number of traits from each set you have slotted.

[APErebusAU]

You get each of the three base capstone skills just by leveling. Those skills do not require the legendary trait but neither are they as strong as the version when upgraded with the Legendary Trait.

You earn the legendary trait that improves each through the methods Keth describes. Once you have the Legendary Trait, and slot 5 traits in the set, then you can slot the Legendary Trait and the capstone skill transforms into the Legendary version.

Until you have the Legendary Trait associated with a trait set, it is up to you decide whether you want to slot 5 traits from that set. However, you can still use all three base capstone skills regardless of the number of traits from each set you have slotted.

Ahhh, that wasn't clear...

Thanks for clearing that up DD.

In a general question, do we keep all of our old legendaries? (Assuming so but just making sure)

[DangerDan]

In a general question, do we keep all of our old legendaries? (Assuming so but just making sure)

Yep. Now you just have a few more to try and choose between.

[Tinluen]

Any extra slot space for those new skills?

[Russano]

You get each of the three base capstone skills just by leveling. Those skills do not require the legendary trait but neither are they as strong as the version when upgraded with the Legendary Trait.

You earn the legendary trait that improves each through the methods Keth describes. Once you have the Legendary Trait, and slot 5 traits in the set, then you can slot the Legendary Trait and the capstone skill transforms into the Legendary version.

Until you have the Legendary Trait associated with a trait set, it is up to you decide whether you want to slot 5 traits from that set. However, you can still use all three base capstone skills regardless of the number of traits from each set you have slotted.

Okay, that makes more sense. It seems a bit convoluted to have dual requirements fort he Legendary traits, but it's better than I thought. Thank you for the info!

One thing I am still curious about though: you say all class traits are now in one of the three sets, and bonuses start at 2. That sounds good as far as it goes, but when do the penalties mentioned in your diary start to kick in? I like some of the benefits from the Trapper of Foes set, but does that mean I'll suffer lower damage if I slot at least two of those traits?

I like the flexibility of the system with bonuses at each step, but that flexibility works against the system if penalties also accrue at each step. Are you at liberty to give us more details on the penalties?

-R

[SaintBass]

So... I have been digesting this a little bit and I would have to mirror the sentiments regarding increased power costs. Any serious use of focus burn techniques combined with traits that increase power costs when many of us raiding hunters already use a minimum of 3 ICPR items and anywhere from a smattering of Fate to rivaling some Minstrels. All told, this concerns me greatly.

However, there is some potential to min-max a little with a 3, 2 and 2 setup of traits and simply slotting Bow of the Righteous, Bards Arrow and Rain of Thorns (maybe press onward if it actually gets tweaked to some amount of usefulness). The question becomes what set will take the lead. For me in PvE raiding it really does depend on the induction and cool-down of distracting shot as compared to possible DPS bumps or decreased induction times. Permanent use of the Wind-rider book in the class item slot is likely to be incorporated into many Hunter builds but will it only offset power costs by the amount that they are increased come Moria? The last power increase was by 18% to Penetrating Shot... which incidentally is the same amount that the 6/6 Doom-Hunter Set reduces the cost of Penetrating Shot. I really don't like the possibility of one hand giving while the other hand takes away in the expansion.

Personally, diversifying between offense and some modicum of defense has served me well thus far in all areas of game-play so I never intended to go with a "pure" build. As such, I am looking forward to really customizing my Hunter, but there is a rich history to increases to power costs that I am mindful of.

My other concern is quick-slot and bag space. Currently, we have to use 10 Quick-Slots for all of our travel skills (in addition to the usual skills that every class gets: Return to House, Return to Kin Hall, Racial Return and whatever maps you may slot) as well as three slots just for tracking different mobs or MPs. Simply making those skills usable through the skills menu would go a long way, but a couple of consolidated skills with sub-menu's would be preferred. That would make room for these new skills that we are getting as well as the different traps we have at our disposal and the 5 or more bows that many of us have quick-slotted. My quick-slots have been FULL for some time now. In fact, I don't even have room to slot Athelas or Celebrant potions and have long since gone without just because opening up the inventory to find and right-click on them takes WAY too much time.

At any rate, I am hopeful, but reserved.

i never run out of power and i am a pew pew junky so what r u all doing wrong

Its not a matter of what we are doing wrong, but rather what we are doing right.

[dmwst30]

So who thought adding a sub-section to a class that has the biggest power issues i

Wait, they put up the Captain dev diary?

Don't exaggerate. Even with all the ICPR items and high fate, captains have it worse than even hunters that choose not to go endurance/use bow chants.

[Soultwister]

The Hunters are not the only ones who get a detriment for a set bonus.

The Master of Nature’s Fury focuses on giving enhancements to one of Nature’s most powerful elements: flame. This raises the damage potential of many of the Lore-master’s fire skills, at the cost of some of the blasting powder from Blinding Flash, causing the latter to have a shorter duration.

If Lore-Masters trait for damage, they will lose some power in Blinding Flash.

[CWood]

Wait, they put up the Captain dev diary?

Don't exaggerate. Even with all the ICPR items and high fate, captains have it worse than even hunters that choose not to go endurance/use bow chants.

It's sort of a matter of perspective. While I'd be willing to put unstanced/mitigated hunter Power consumption up against a captain's any day of the week, we do have a lot more tools to help reduce or counteract those Power costs. Take away those mitigation tools (or God forbid use Stance: Strength) and I'd put my money on the hunter to "win" the OOP race. 5k Power/minute isn't beyond reason for a Focus Burn build in Stance: Strength.

So (in summary):

Hunters = Stupid Power costs + Lots of Power Mitigation
Captains = Stupid Power costs + a hobo that follows you around

There's also a running theme that most people really aren't playing the hunter class very effectively. That's a different topic, though.

[Benucio]

So... we have to use 10 Quick-Slots for all of our travel skills (in addition to the usual skills that every class gets: Return to House, Return to Kin Hall, Racial Return and whatever maps you may slot) as well as three slots just for tracking different mobs or MPs. Simply making those skills usable through the skills menu would go a long way...

You make a fine point there SaintBass.

Captains have a drop-down menu to summon fellowship members. It is the same exact menu that fellowship leaders get when loot rules are set to Master Looter. This tells me the programming language is already there. Hunters should be able to use this same functionality. Why not?

Has anyone heard of ANY Turbine employee acknowledge this?

[Benucio]

Wait, they put up the Captain dev diary?

Don't exaggerate. Even with all the ICPR items and high fate, captains have it worse than even hunters that choose not to go endurance/use bow chants.

I have to agree with you. Hunters can burn through power quickly, but it's not nearly as fast as Captains. Not even close. (yes I play both)
As a captain, I need to slot ICPR bracelets just to swift travel from West Bree to the south gate.

[Onlywar]

love this it will give us a chance to customize what we want more of, in our hunter

[AgamemnonV1]

So you expected every trait to be geared toward fellowship/raid play now? And correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the whole game (not just end) have us in fellowships? You can play solo at end-game or at any other point, or you can be in a fellowship thruout, or you can do some of both. Do you think every level 50 spends all/most of their time raiding? Cause it ain't the case. There are currently traits that fit better for solo and others that are better for full-fellowship/raid play. After the update, there will be traits that fit better for solo and others that are better for full-fellowship/raid play. There's a lot to choose from and you only get 7 slots to fill, so what's the problem?

What the hell are you doing solo at LV50? No, seriously, what are you doing? Because Endgame, right now, is either the Rift, Helegrod, Sarnur, HI, Annuminas, or the Moors--all of which are fellowship/raid play.

I appreciate that you may spend more of your time doing hard core group instances or raids. I enjoy those a lot when I do them too. I think that some of these new Hunter class features will benefit that too.

Hardcore? I hardly think Annuminas is "hardcore." Then again, if you're by yourself all the time, I imagine working with others would be "hardcore" in your eyes. Hell, even the Moors is a jump-in-the-fray-and-have-fun experience.

We don't know the details of the changes yet so its too soon to jump to a full conclusion The key factors for evaluating the 'Bowmaster' features are going to be what % DPS boost vs what % power cost increases. If the DPS boost is 20% but the power cost increase is 90% then it would clearly suck. What if it was the reverse? Would you like that? The truth is probably going to be somewhere in the middle.

People really need to stop throwing around the term "DPS" for Hunters. We are not DPS, we are inductions. Interrupt our inductions and we're lawn ornaments. And what we know is enough. Bowmaster is all about damage increase to a class that already deals insane damage. The compromise is skills will cost more power. Nothing complicated about that.

And yes, I would like it in reverse. That's just the thing. The other two sub-sets don't counter the power issues with the Hunter. It's like someone purposely ignored all the major complaints about the Hunter and just did the exact opposite.

Aside - the Swift Bow change is basically a 50% damage boost for that skill. That's pretty nice if it doesn't come with a power or induction cost increase.

One more arrow for Swift Bow, which will be something you'll have to slot, is not enough for me to get worked up for Mines of Moria. I hope there are actually real things to entice me as an incentive to go past 50, especially if the RK might just be everything we were supposed to be and more. Actually, I'm thinking that's how it's going to be, which is why they gave us this whole "Bowman" thing. Chances are, endgame, the RK would be equal on par for damage with us, which would lead many Hunters to complain, considering the RK can give self heals (as we still remain the only class to not have a self heal in combat). So what do they do? More damage. Only thing that makes sense. We already do crazy damage. Gotta up the ante if another class will be competing with us now.

Wait, they put up the Captain dev diary?

Don't exaggerate. Even with all the ICPR items and high fate, captains have it worse than even hunters that choose not to go endurance/use bow chants.

Definitely not. I've raided with Captains before and I definitely burn my power way before they do. So do my fellow Hunters. I don't deny Captains also have power issues, but to ignore that Hunters don't have them is rediculous.

[Silverangel]

THE HUNTSMEN
The final Trait Set available to the Hunter is called The Huntsmen with the twin focus of survivability and mobility.

I'm sure I'll be 'shot down' mercilessly for this , but my only feedback is that the title of this trait set is gender biased. Will female hunters have a Huntswoman set?

[duvelmoortgat]

I'm sure I'll be 'shot down' mercilessly for this , but my only feedback is that the title of this trait set is gender biased. Will female hunters have a Huntswoman set?

Huntswomen? Not far enough.
I call racial discrimination! There should be Huntself (well Huntselves given that Huntsmen use plural in "men",
)and Huntshobbit as well Huntsdwarf! (Huntsdwarves)

Huntsperson/Huntshumaniod/HuntsFreePeople?