Dev Diary Feedback: Combat Changes

[delphinius81]

I like the changes, as it will open up into a more in-depth system and allow for much future expansion. But... part of the appeal in this game was the fact that you never had to min-max. With this system, it just sounds like you are going to have a ton more min-max type behavior, where having the correct set of gear is going to be that much more important (especially with the "hard mode" objectives attached now to instances).

I also disagree with the manner in which these values are presented to the user. If the rating is broken down into percentage points in the tool tip... why don't you still display the percentage points and just keep the rating internal? You can mouse over the percentage and see the total rating and how it is broken down due to gear, traits, and basic stats. To me, the character sheet should display the simple output (percentages), and if you want more information, mouse over the percentage (rating breakdown on percentage contribution).

I completely get the reason for the changes and support them. I like having a more complex system where I won't just throw away that piece of quest gear, and I'll have to decide on whether I want more mitigation in one direction over another. But, I really dislike the new presentation method for the system. It just seems backwards and unnecessarily complicated for quickly seeing the effect of changing gear.

Now I swap gear (mouse over the item in my inventory), I see the rating go up in my character sheet. But what does it mean? Ok, move the mouse back to character sheet to see how the new gear changed percentages. Wait, what were my percentages before? Better put the old gear back on. (Move mouse over to inventory again.) Ack! Lost my tool tip! I better get out some paper and write down everything before and after.

You can no longer just swap an item out and see how the percentage breakdown will be influenced by the change in gear. It appears that display mechanic has added a lot of extra work. I like the min-max gear game, and I can already see myself saying forget it, since the interface will just get in the way of achieving my goal.

Give us back percentage ratings as the display mechanic, with the overall rating and appropriate contributions in the mouse over. Split the character stat UI section into two parts (base stats with crits as part 1, and resistance/mitigations as part 2), if you cannot fit all of the new percentage ratings on the screen at once.

There is way too much work involved in constantly checking tool-tips to see how something changed.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll get yelled at by someone for saying this, because I "haven't actually used it yet." Well, I don't need to hold a chicken in my hand to know that I'm looking at a chicken.

[Garudo]

So it sounds like gear is becoming a "must have" in certain situations. Im fine with that to be honest, i have never had a problem with gear hunting. However one thing that i absolutley hate is when there is only one way to obtain such gear.

Turbine has said in order to be able to tackle the Raid in MoM, you will need powerful armor. Does this powerful gear only come from instances? Or can this gear be obtained from crafting and other means. With this combat change i think a lot of people will have certain armor they will aim to obtain, and i think its only right that people know if their playstyle can join in the "fun" of hunting for better gear. Could any Beta players give some insight on this?

[Gumawerian]

You could at least be fully honest. For example, this quote stuck out to me:

We were literally giving out tiny bits of effectiveness for our characters, and generally, although some may disagree, tiny fractional percentages just aren’t fun.

That's even MORE true in the new combat system. Wait till you get items with +220 Evade rating an realize that is .1%. Or wait until you realize 400 Tactical Crit rating is .6%. And stats like Might, Agility, and Fate influence these numbers even less than in the old combat system.

Oh, and wait till you level up and your mitigations and BPE go down.


There are a few traits that give out huge bonuses, but not many.

At least be completely truthful and say "We needed room to grow. Players were already reaching the upper limits of avoidance and mitigation."

I agree. The tiny bits of effectiveness are back and more miniscule than ever. And this is exactly what people predicted back in SoA's beta: the system needs to be redone, not patched up with bandaids.

[Wisdomandlore]

The armour ratings on most gear have also been buffed substantially. Not sure how it is for light armour wearers but my burglar in beta has over 3,000 armour thanks to buffs to armour and slotting traits that grant armour bonuses.

The ratings have gone up but your mitigations will have gone down.

[greenie30]

A couple points:

-You can still boost Shadow, Fire, Ice, etc mitigations without using Armor Value. These can come from buffs, virtues, gear, etc.

-Minstrels are primarily a Light Armor class.

-Minstrels have minor, I repeat MINOR, CC.

-Loremasters have TONS of CC.

-Runekeepers and Minstrels can make up for the lack of armor through healing.

-Loremasters can make up for the lack of armor through pets and CC.

Thanks for the info really, I'm happy if it's true they have not removed the stat effects. I don't want you to think me ungrateful but...

Let's clarify, all the time I see minstrels saying they are a light armor class.
They can wear medium, if the devs thought it was no little thing, why is there not trait for an LM to wear medium. Clearly we are never allowed yet minstrels are. But to hear it from a minstrel if they don't want to trait it, well, guess it doesn't count. You get the choice to turn it down tho and LMs don't.

Yes LMs have more cc but LM also has a cast time on dern near everything. My minstrel can cast ballads running thru something and if I am remembering correctly. all the war speech skills are aoe AND have no cast time. Minstrels can cast on the run and even improve their in combat run speed. Not to mention at any point you can drop warspeech and let off some full strength heals.

To aoe on an LM more than once every 2 minutes you have cast time involved. To heal with an LM your pet has to be alive and proc a skill you have no control over THEN you have to catch it within 7 seconds and it CAN resist too. A minstrel just stops and heals, no proc and no chance to resist. Unless you wait every 3 minutes to stand still channeling for 16 seconds(inner flame) or just heal once every 10 minutes.

p.s The minstrel is the one that should be making up for armor with a heal, not an LM - we are not the be all end all healing class in the game. That's what has always perplexed me about the healer being able to wear heavier armor than other classes in the game. If Lms could heal as good as minstrels we would take their role, clearly you heal better and you wear stronger armor, nope I can't explain it either.

The 2 classes play very different. One can move around to do most damage and one must sit still. That's why an LM needs cc - to gain the distance for cast time to go off. Give me everything instant cast/medium armor chance and you can take away my weasly little pet lol

[ararax2]

That looks to me like 7/9 classes will be able to take advantage of their armor bonuses while 2 classes are left behind due to the restrictions.

I'd like to know in what way they have been balanced to compensate for this change that seems to aid every class except 2 that will not be able to pass the light armor level. Are you offering up more items that increase armor that can ONLY be used by the 2 lowest armored classes? Something like a potion, a buff, anything?

Um plate metal armor should make us less squishy then you. before this warg shadow paws were hitting us through plate just as well as hitting you through cloth. It was broken. Now its fixed. Your a squishy, thats situation normal.

It was never intended for you guys to be the tanking fools you are now. Your light armor classes, thats the way it is.

Before now heavy armour classes got super repair bills and it was useless vs anything but common, which wasnt all that common at higher instances.

[LagunaD]

The ratings have gone up but your mitigations will have gone down.

It kind of reminds me of the scene in This is Spinal Tap where the guitarist brags about the volume knob on his amplifier going up to 11...

[NotYetMeasured]

Give us back percentage ratings as the display mechanic, with the overall rating and appropriate contributions in the mouse over.

Agreed. Nobody is going to fall for this trick of giving away +400 rating points which still only amount to a +0.2% change in the actual stat. But to turbine's credit, they didn't take %s away entirely, leading to a truly opaque system.

.

[Betabryan]

Turbine matures, phew.

When do guards get their own tier of armor?

[Galan]

As a captain my biggest concern with this system and the current captain build is that our buffs become less and less useful as you level. Since our war banner and IDME don't scale up at ALL they lose effectiveness over time. This is the same with the tactics but at least we can scale those up via legacies.

I don't mind the new system and I understand why it was implemented but what I don't understand is why the captain buffs don't increase with your level.

[LagunaD]

As a captain my biggest concern with this system and the current captain build is that our buffs become less and less useful as you level.

Welcome to the party, pal!

[Mikivaup]

This is all fine and good and I liked the changes for the most part in beta testing. However, I am wondering about the balance issues between classes and their ability to solo the "soloable content". I bring this up only because I have noticed in my beta testing that a Lvl 55 Champion and a Lvl 55 RK simply can not solo the same sole content. I would think that given what was said in this diary that both classes should be fairly equal. At this point, I do not see that they are.

[greenie30]

Um plate metal armor should make us less squishy then you. before this warg shadow paws were hitting us through plate just as well as hitting you through cloth. It was broken. Now its fixed. Your a squishy, thats situation normal.

It was never intended for you guys to be the tanking fools you are now. Your light armor classes, thats the way it is.

Before now heavy armour classes got super repair bills and it was useless vs anything but common, which wasnt all that common at higher instances.

I don't agree with this and here's why.
When you wear heavy armor and I wear light.
You don't have to "build" anything.
It's already in the package. You get better stats armor wise without trying. You won't lose that advantage.

If stats come into play BOTH of us could increase our chances to improve magical defense while you still reigned against melee damage.

Now you get the total package and the light armor users get... the shaft.

Am I not expected to solo without a group? Should it take me 20 minutes to calculatedly kill something it takes you 2 minutes to solo because you take so little damage you have no downtime and move on while I'm shucking and jiving and using every cooldown in sight just to try to survive being hit while you just sit there auto attacking because you can take the damage and are making a sammich?

Don't forget that me pumping up my will helped me from cowering as often when the TANKS need a heal or the TANKS need stun immunity because THEY are cowering. When you hurt us, you hurt yourself in a group too. So when we die on the first hit because you couldn't grab aggro in .5 seconds, blame you wanting us weaker to serve your peen. And once us "squishies" go, your heals are gone :P

[Belegwe]

I don't agree with this and here's why.

If stats come into play BOTH of us could increase our chances to improve magical defense while you still reigned against melee damage.

Now you get the total package and the light armor users get... the shaft.

Am I not expected to solo without a group? Should it take me 20 minutes to calculatedly kill something it takes you 2 minutes to solo because you take so little damage you have no downtime and move on while I'm shucking and jiving and using every cooldown in sight just to try to survive being hit while you just sit there auto attacking because you can take the damage and are making a sammich?

:P

According to Turbine the answer is an emphatic YES! You are supposed to take much longer to kill anything, because you were not intended to be a dps class. Attributes (Vit, Will, Agil, etc.) make much tinier contributions to you resistances now, because you are supposed to be squishier. No, you are not supposed to be able to solo stuff...

As has been mentioned, common mitigation, crit chances (especially tact crit), bpe values, and many other things have plummeted. Get used to it... Prepare to cower... Always.

[Bio-Flame]

Nerfs....

Why does every expansion in every MMO bring huge nerfs??

What a shame...

[Belegwe]

Nerfs....

Why does every expansion in every MMO bring huge nerfs??

What a shame...

Well, they have to counterbalance for all the cool new stuff they said they were going to give us, but since they already had the nerfpaddle out, they figured, hey let's throw in a few more whacks for good measure. Make them extra hard too!

[Zero_Out]

I don't really care much about the change from a percentage system to a rating system. What really concerns me is the partial avoidances. I HATE having debuffs on me. They annoy me like few other things can. I hate being slowed, stat penalties, etc. That is why I build high evade/parry/block on all my characters. I understand that these 'partial' avoidances prevent some of the damage from an attack. But can I still evade that warg attack that puts an extremely annoying speed debuff, with my partial avoidance? Or am I still going to get hit with that stupid thing even if I am only taking half the damage?

[Delaney]

Well, after the info I've gotten after the lifting of the NDA and today's dev diary, I do think I'll like the new combat. Having more challenging combat that will require thought instead of button-mashing is great. There will most certainly be an adjustment period, but we are talking about the evolution of a game that is meant to be far more than instant gratification.

I also don't have any initial objections to gear being a bit more important. People who immediately make what I consider to be absurd claims about having gone to a WoW gear mode (especially if they haven't been in Beta) need to chill and try it live first. Gear wasn't that important before, and while it's great not to have an "arms race", the flip side seems to be having nothing truly interesting to craft and having less incentive to pursue certain goals. There's a balance between gear mattering little and being the sole factor, and I think Turbine's right in trying to achieve a better mix.

[NYSEguy1970]

I don't really care much about the change from a percentage system to a rating system. What really concerns me is the partial avoidances. I HATE having debuffs on me. They annoy me like few other things can. I hate being slowed, stat penalties, etc. That is why I build high evade/parry/block on all my characters. I understand that these 'partial' avoidances prevent some of the damage from an attack. But can I still evade that warg attack that puts an extremely annoying speed debuff, with my partial avoidance? Or am I still going to get hit with that stupid thing even if I am only taking half the damage?

my understanding is that the partial avoidance will affect damage, but the debuff will still have to be checked against your resists (wound I believe for the warg slow you mention)

you can't partially avoid a debuff, but you can partially avoid a blow to take even less damage.

IE: you get hit by a bullet square in the chest...full damage...you matrix avoid it...no damage...you partially avoid it and it grazes you...less damage....

contaminated syringe w/hep b on it...you drop it and it misses your foot...no disease....you drop it and it sticks squarely in your foot...disease check....you drop it and it nicks you but doesn't stick in...still a disease check.

at least that's the way i understand it.

[etaipo]

This is what happens in MMOs. They will always nerf the game down to keep the larger(usually the casual) player base happy. Its just the way things are now.

[Belegwe]

Well, after the info I've gotten after the lifting of the NDA and today's dev diary, I do think I'll like the new combat. Having more challenging combat that will require thought instead of button-mashing is great. There will most certainly be an adjustment period, but we are talking about the evolution of a game that is meant to be far more than instant gratification.

I also don't have any initial objections to gear being a bit more important. People who immediately make what I consider to be absurd claims about having gone to a WoW gear mode (especially if they haven't been in Beta) need to chill and try it live first. Gear wasn't that important before, and while it's great not to have an "arms race", the flip side seems to be having nothing truly interesting to craft and having less incentive to pursue certain goals. There's a balance between gear mattering little and being the sole factor, and I think Turbine's right in trying to achieve a better mix.

I dispute the idea that gear wasnt that important. For me it made a huge difference on effectiveness and survivability, especially on my less-armoured classes. It was also the difference between being an effective main healer as a captain and being relegated to minor healing support. Gear being important is not a new introduction. For those of us who sought to get certain kinds of gear combinations for certain goals or specializations, we have taken a big nerf, because now we will have to get them anyway but will not get even close to the same kind of effectiveness out of them. The BPE minstrel build and the tactical crit (main healer) captain build, for example, will no longer be realistic possibilities. For those who just went with any old armor, they will have to go for specialized armor to gain back their old abilities, but they can still do it.

[Bio-Flame]

One can have hopes that Devs learn and things change.

Again, nothing against changing from % to pure rating (although I think it's..messier).
I just don't like nerfs, however golden and tasty they try to sell it.


My guardian can do X right now. When I PAY for MoM he'll be able to do less: X-10.
Why would I pay for that?

And when I get him to his previous power levels "X", what's going to stop Turbine from nerfing it all over again with the next expansion?

Why pay for nerfs?

PS - And the Million dollar question: Why do Devs always FEEL they need to nerf?

[Belegwe]

my understanding is that the partial avoidance will affect damage, but the debuff will still have to be checked against your resists (wound I believe for the warg slow you mention)

you can't partially avoid a debuff, but you can partially avoid a blow to take even less damage.

IE: you get hit by a bullet square in the chest...full damage...you matrix avoid it...no damage...you partially avoid it and it grazes you...less damage....

contaminated syringe w/hep b on it...you drop it and it misses your foot...no disease....you drop it and it sticks squarely in your foot...disease check....you drop it and it nicks you but doesn't stick in...still a disease check.

at least that's the way i understand it.

Seems to make the original point. With partial evades, blocks, or parries, you will take the debuffs connected to melee or ranged skills because they are not completely avoided. Sure you still have to pass resistance checks, but your 27% wound resist that you currently have will be much, much smaller too, so you should take that nasty debuff far more, partial blocked or unblocked, etc.

[Belegwe]

PS - And the Million dollar question: Why do Devs always FEEL they need to nerf?

Because they grew up on Nerf?

[Bio-Flame]

Rofl
ehheheehhe