Dev Diary Feedback: Monster Play Class Enhancements

[Clover]

Calling all Creeps! Get ready to dust off your empty quickbars and open your destiny wallets; we have a lot of good things in store for you! This dev diary will focus on the new skills and traits that have been added to Monster Player classes.


Dive on in to Jalessa's latest Developer Diary: Monster Play Class Enhancements and join the discussion here!

[gildhur]

Question 1, since there seems to be some debate: Is the expansion required to access new skills and traits?

[Gillianrial]

I know the Stalker rallying howl has been nerfed...by how much? We're already very squishy; and the howl is helpful for those of us who spec for damage and already have barely 4k health.

[Snogirl]

I am glad to see a change for noob weavers and stalkers. I tried playing both of these when I first started creeping and got very frustrated very quickly. I stuck with my BA, though, and I'm excited about the new skills.

Keep those dev diaries comin!

[cdnsteve]

Many of the reaver skills are listed as common damage - at rank 5 we get the fire damage type - will this still change our common damage skills to fire?

[MorningStarSE]

I always liked the Warleader skill name keep up the good work. Just sad i prefer to play my captain now.

[Jalessa]

Many of the reaver skills are listed as common damage - at rank 5 we get the fire damage type - will this still change our common damage skills to fire?

Your new skills will be changed appropriately when the Burning Blades trait is equipped.

[Sezneg]

Many of the good new abilities require high ranks.

Since the design philosophy of the moors is now to make 1 freep = 1 creep, at what rank do you consider this to occur?

How long do you expect it to take for creeps to potentially field a rank 13+?

I notice that ambush has been removed from the spider's list of new skills. I assume this skill was just too clunky to get working right. Any idea whether we will see something to replace it? If so, what sort of skill?

[NYSEguy1970]

I like that weavers now have a damaging, non-dot based attack that we can use w/o fear of a lasting effect that renders our web or mez useless. I get that was probably the impetus for adding that as a rank 0 skill, and it was sorely needed. (Lethal Kiss)

However, looking at the CDs for that attack (LK = 8sec) and the CD on our main attack now on live (TK = 6sec). I think should be examined.

It seems to me that LK should be our primary initial damage attack, the one we 'spam', and our attack w/the dot (TK) be the one that we apply as the situation warrants. Since TK is a dot w/an initial damage component, it's not something that should have a shortish CD IMO, because the majority of the damage from TK comes from the DOT which lasts 30 seconds, not the initial.

Therefore, IMO, it would make much more sense that LK should have the shorter CD of 6 seconds (or even 5 seconds ), and TK have the longer CD of 8 (or even 10) seconds instead.

I like the short CD on TK on live, only because I feel the need to spam it since I don't have any other choice, but I'm spamming it for the initial damage and not the dot. I only need to reapply the dot when the dot is about to drop, or if it gets cured....I certainly don't need to reapply a 30 second dot every 6 seconds....

So I'm asking that the CD on LK and TK be examined from a strategic standpoint and have the CD on LK shorted, and perhaps as a counter balance to that, increase the CD on TK..either by just swapping the cd's on either one or by comming up w/some other number based on testing and dps mechanics.

[ararax2]

Many of the good new abilities require high ranks.

Since the design philosophy of the moors is now to make 1 freep = 1 creep, at what rank do you consider this to occur?

How long do you expect it to take for creeps to potentially field a rank 13+?

This is a very good question. if Rank 0 creeps = lv 60 freeps with no good gear then will rank 13 creeps = lv 60 freeps with rank 13 PvMP gear? What level is considered average?

[Rugzug]

so you list all the stuff you added...

why not list all the stuff you took away?

[SirJeffreyAlan2]

As a fan of Medal of Honor and the player vs player mode when you get a Headshot being annouced when it happens. I am now looking forward to my BA getting multiple HEADSHOTS on the freeps

R-4 BA Dethtual

[Cembrye]

In general, this looks positive. A few brief questions and two minor graphics:


GENERAL CREEP QUESTION

1. I would second the concern that many new skills require very high ranks. We have very few Creeps on our server above even R8 at present. It seems far more likely we will see fully-tricked out level 60 Freeps with Legendary weapons/items long before a significant number of Creeps reach even R10. How do you expect things to remain balanced?

WEAVER SPECIFIC

2. On Weavers, they do common damage mainly, but once you trait Born of Shadow it would seem appropriate they do some Shadow damage, e.g. beyond the BOS reflection damage. Any chance weaver damage types can be expanded?

3. Right now a big problem with weavers is their best special attacks are easily cured by poison removal skills or potions. Can you be more specific as to which of the weaver skills, old and new, can be cured by poison removal or potions? Your last diary hinted this is being tweaked and some attacks may not be curable anymore.

MINOR WEAVER GRAPHICS ISSUES

4. Right now, Latent Poison and Hatchlings both share the same effects icon on the target. Since multiple applications of the same effect (e.g. two spiders using Hatchlings on the same target at once) cancel out one of them, it would be helpful for a spider to know which of the two count-downs was currently active on the target so they can choose an attack that would not overwrite it. Can the effects icons of the Latent Poison and Hatchlings be made different so we know which is which? Even just changing the background icon color would be helpful.

5. Poison spray doesn't seem to display an effects icon on the target at all (unless I am missing something) which means that you never know when you hit someone and they are being effected. Can you look into whether effects icons on targets hit by Poison Spray are being displayed properly?

Thanks.

[Overtone]

Stalker

Sense Prey is listed as a Rank 9 skill. Why does a Stalker have to wait to do at R9 what your average two-month old puppy can do?

Why can't Shadow Howler be toggled while In Combat? All of my Freeps can toggle in and out of their stances while IC. Why not my Warg?

The reduction of a target's melee damage and armour value that Shadow Howler provides is going to be very target dependent (i.e. Guards, Champs, Caps, Wardens) in terms of its utility. Not being able to toggle in and out of this skill while IC makes no sense, especially if it negates the Warg's stealth.

Reaver

Can Blood-Lust, Time-Out, Wrath and Glory all be used within the same encounter? Or does the use of one skill preclude the use of the others?

Why is Enhanced Hamstring Rank 15?

I understand that this skill may become more useful after the new combat changes (i.e. it won't be B/P/E'd so easily), but since it is the Reaver's ONLY form of CC, delaying its enhancement until R15 doesn't make sense.

General

I certainly am looking forward to using the new skills on my Creeps. The addition of an assortment of new creep skills was LONG overdue. However, I'm surprised there aren't more stances or toggle modes available, especially for the Reaver (compared to a Champion or Guardian, for instance). The lack of additional CC options is also a disappointment.

It's also my opinion that most of the new skills provided are going to be, quite frankly, out of reach for most players. I PvP a lot, but mix it up between freep and creep. With shared playtime and the fact that one of my creeps resides on a low population server, I seriously doubt my creeps will make R10 by the next expansion, let alone Rank 15.

[Taso29]

You devs have really worked hard on these new MP enhancements. Bravo, great work. You've come up with some great ideas to try and close the gap between creeps and freeps.

I'll try to be as unbiased as I can

However, the only problem is the rank requirement with a lot of these new additions. If you look in the creep forum, you'll find that of all US servers, there are only 11 players at R10 after approximately 1.5 years of play time. Many of the skills that have been added cannot even be used by any players on live, and probably won't be for at least another 1.5 years(Assuming R10-11 is the same infamy as 0-10, based off of what I've seen at the lower ranks). You've obviously done some hard work on these skills, but the rank requirements on them mean that they probably won't even be used for a long time. But where's the right place to put these skills? You don't want to put them so low that everybody and their dog can use them(even though every hunter can track, but only 22 wargs US server wide can track unstealthed targets), but at the rank they're at right now, they're not doing any good other than to encourage people to keep playing for another 4 years. But you have to keep subscribers, right? You need that carrot on a stick. But I feel that the carrots aren't placed at the right spots along the path. R15 for something a level 40 burglar can do(Improved daze)? It's hard to draw the line...just something to think about

Another issue, sort of similar to the one above, at what rank should creeps and freeps become "equal" in a sense in usefulness(Whether that's 1 v 1ing, small grouping or raiding). Obviously, a green dot creep should be getting his butt kicked most of the time, but when do you draw the line as to when it becomes equal. Is there any point where one side should surpass the other in capability? That's the problem with adding skills at the higher ranks. Are you saying that at those high ranks which take alot of time to attain, creeps and freeps should be equal? Or that at that rank, a creep should have the advantage? At what rank should creeps and freeps be equal? R6? Some people(myself included) think that it's a rank that takes some effort to get, while other will blab on about how easy mode it is to get, and how you can get it in a week. Where will the line of equality be drawn? Is it fair for a R13(not that one will exist for 1.5 years :P) creep to have a huge advantage over a freep, or should it be kept equal? This is the part that I liked about the old setup with creep skills..most were given at or under R6. Obviously, there were large numbers of skills missing(which have thankfully been implemented now) with those R9 racial skills to look forward to. But now with these new skills, how much can they be considered into the balance? With ranks requirements that take years of play to attain, people might just tend to ignore them because seldom to people use these skills. Where is the line?

Just some things to think about :P

[vercoza13]

I need a horse...

[gildhur]

I need a horse...

No you don't. Get your maps.

[NYSEguy1970]

WEAVER SPECIFIC

2. On Weavers, they do common damage mainly, but once you trait Born of Shadow it would seem appropriate they do some Shadow damage, e.g. beyond the BOS reflection damage. Any chance weaver damage types can be expanded?

i've been beating this drum ever since book 12 iirc (when the racial traits 1st came out)...please please please Turbine look at this

3. Right now a big problem with weavers is their best special attacks are easily cured by poison removal skills or potions. Can you be more specific as to which of the weaver skills, old and new, can be cured by poison removal or potions? Your last diary hinted this is being tweaked and some attacks may not be curable anymore.

this would be welcome news....

MINOR WEAVER GRAPHICS ISSUES

4. Right now, Latent Poison and Hatchlings both share the same effects icon on the target. Since multiple applications of the same effect (e.g. two spiders using Hatchlings on the same target at once) cancel out one of them, it would be helpful for a spider to know which of the two count-downs was currently active on the target so they can choose an attack that would not overwrite it. Can the effects icons of the Latent Poison and Hatchlings be made different so we know which is which? Even just changing the background icon color would be helpful.

brilliant suggestion....in the flow of battle it's difficult to hover over the timer icon for the tooltip as to what countdown poison is on your target already so you don't overwrite it. make the hatchlings one a green timer and the LP a yellow timer (since LP is a yellow skill button iirc)

5. Poison spray doesn't seem to display an effects icon on the target at all (unless I am missing something) which means that you never know when you hit someone and they are being effected. Can you look into whether effects icons on targets hit by Poison Spray are being displayed properly?

Thanks.

poison spray is actually a green poison icon w/a down arrow to show it's lowering something on the freep. it's the same icon as the hatchlings mob poison debuff as well, which lowers poison resists. However, the agil debuff does display if it lands. Just look for a green icon w/a down arrow.

[Artanisul]

THe day my brand new Creep is as strong as the brand new lvl 50(now 60)freeps that come into the moors, is the day we will be equal ad not require 4:1 odds. I still dont see any of this fixing the main problem I have experienced in the moors.

[atreyuuuu]

THe day my brand new Creep is as strong as the brand new lvl 50(now 60)freeps that come into the moors, is the day we will be equal ad not require 4:1 odds. I still dont see any of this fixing the main problem I have experienced in the moors.

... which is?

[Artanisul]

... which is?

lol

which is...what I wrote...

[Symar]

Stalker


Why can't Shadow Howler be toggled while In Combat? All of my Freeps can toggle in and out of their stances while IC. Why not my Warg?

I would guess, to prevent being overpowered. If you could stealth, pounce, and then supercharge your melee skills with the only drawback being no stealth (which you cant do incombat anyway, barring hips), it's probably overpowered.

[Ozthorn]

Many of the good new abilities require high ranks.

Since the design philosophy of the moors is now to make 1 freep = 1 creep, at what rank do you consider this to occur?

How long do you expect it to take for creeps to potentially field a rank 13+?

I notice that ambush has been removed from the spider's list of new skills. I assume this skill was just too clunky to get working right. Any idea whether we will see something to replace it? If so, what sort of skill?

Unless you're a hardcore creep you won't see the high end skills in the life of this game. Considering the way infamy requirements ramp up and the fact that the hardcore players are hitting rank 9 (and there are few of those), it could be a couple of years before they see rank 13+. More casual players... forget it. If I pooled the infamy from all of my creeps I would be about halfway through 7 to 8, and I play a fair amount.

Freeps will have all of their skills long before creeps. I'd be surprised if we didn't see topped out freeps with two weeks of Moria's launch. I'll be surprised if we see topped out creeps within two years.

[Overtone]

I would guess, to prevent being overpowered. If you could stealth, pounce, and then supercharge your melee skills with the only drawback being no stealth (which you cant do incombat anyway, barring hips), it's probably overpowered.

An OP Warg? Now that would be something see...

[Taso29]

Why can't Shadow Howler be toggled while In Combat? All of my Freeps can toggle in and out of their stances while IC. Why not my Warg?

To me, Shadow Howler seems like a parallel to Mischief. Mischief can't be activated in combat