New outfits, decorations, and housing room add-ons (DSL warning!)

[Adder]

Doing a quick entity count, I found 295 hookable objects for housing. Half of them have been added since housing first went live. It gets consistent effort for additions.

I know there are complaints about the hooks, about storage, etc, etc. Yes, we know about those issues. Those are not easy issues to grapple with. And they're not going to change without a lot of effort. But several things about upkeep, and escrow, and other things have changed since it has gone live, and we've added a bunch, and we add new items *every* *single* *update*, so really, housing gets its attention.

Floon. Nobody is faulting the dev team with not enough items for housing. We all know that *every* *single* *update* includes new decoration items. We all realize that you have changed things with upkeep and escrow. But Floon, think about what you just posted. In one breath you say that you are well aware of the complaints and issues involving the hooks and storage, and in the next breath you tell about all of the consistent additions to hookable objects. o.O

Floon. *We* *don't* *want* *nor* *need* *more* *hookable* *objects*! Adding more hookable objects is only compounding the problem...

• The hook system severely limits the amount and variety of items we can put in our homes.
• The storage system is severely limited in capacity and further restricted by bound items including many hookable housing objects.
• Solution - Add more hookable objects. HUH? Did I miss something?

I fail to see the logic. I, for one, would rather not see another hookable object for housing for an entire year if instead you all were working on removing the hook system, addressing the storage issue, and adding actual events/quests to neighborhoods (urban renewal if you will). Then maybe throw in some other hobbies, usable housing items, and in-game games, and discussions like this would disappear.

[Duredhel]

• The hook system severely limits the amount and variety of items we can put in our homes.
• The storage system is severely limited in capacity and further restricted by bound items including many hookable housing objects.

... the very reason why I haven't participated in a season festival in the past year. I simply have no place to put the stuff, which is sad considering the effort that goes into creating such content.

[Ray_skye]

I would be able to handle more deco items (even with the hook system) if ALL the trophies I get weren't bound. I would love to be able to pack up all the old trophies I have and ship them to my alt for storage. The fact that most of the current "Cool" trophies are BoA make life really hard for those of us that take decoration seriously. Removing the hooks would be VERY nice and it would let me make my house into my HOME. Might give me a reason to go back there for more than to stick something in my chests.

Give us us, us HOOKLESS!

[Narthalion]

We keep arguing fluff vs not fluff (questing, storyline, whatever) but why not combine the two!!! Give housing some sort of significant task like a raid but for housing. Then you could satisfy two parties at once. People like to do things they feel have significance, and right now raids and questing have more significance than housing. But if housing had it's own significance then of course it would be more important to more people.

Trophies satisfy this a little bit but they requires you to raid/quest instance to get the cool trophies (or buy them but that is like false advertising in my book). Which defeats the fluff idea, because it forces non fluff to get fluff. But making housing and decoration more essential in some way would be nice. Not that it forces you to have a house, but if you do there would be some cooler things you could do.

I'm afraid I kind of agree that housing, once it was implemented was just put on the back burner. You have added tons of items, which is cool, but the system itself hasn't been upgraded. When there were the "month of the *class*" updates, those were a great idea. But I think housing needs one of those. Doesn't have to be book eight or anything, but I would like to see us told that housing is being given a serious look at for upgrading.

To be honest I really haven't seen a ton of people asking for more raids. Not saying there aren't any but I think there is more of an interest in upgrading housing. I do think Turbine should do a large poll to see where the biggest interest in future updates is.

[Zantiana]

I'm afraid I kind of agree that housing, once it was implemented was just put on the back burner. You have added tons of items, which is cool, but the system itself hasn't been upgraded. When there were the "month of the *class*" updates, those were a great idea. But I think housing needs one of those. Doesn't have to be book eight or anything, but I would like to see us told that housing is being given a serious look at for upgrading.

To be honest I really haven't seen a ton of people asking for more raids. Not saying there aren't any but I think there is more of an interest in upgrading housing. I do think Turbine should do a large poll to see where the biggest interest in future updates is.

Good idea

This game is probably more known for it's RP/story atmosphere than hard-core PvP. Giving players more control and options with housing would really help.

The art dept did such a wonderful job on armour,clothing and quest reward weapons that many would love to showcase them.

The 'hook' system is very limiting for those of us addicted to HGTV.

I don't know the tech issues involved, but is there a way to do 'Bind to Account' so that items can be moved between alts for storage at least? This would also allow me to drop some items into my own house.

[Ray_skye]

I'm gonig to start up a new thread asking them to do a poll of the populace. Kinda sad that we would have to make a suggestion to get them to listen to our suggestions and ask us what we want.

[Narthalion]

I know they listen to us a lot more than other devs do, which is awesome. But I would just like to see it take a more official form this time. That way we can see some numbers for what areas we would like improved or expanded.

[floon]

Floon. Nobody is faulting the dev team with not enough items for housing.

You're faulting the dev team for "not giving attention to housing". My point was, we give housing a lot of attention, and I outlined several aspects of change and attention since its launch. After my explanation, it really does boil down to, "more hooks in houses or more storage is the only attention you consider acceptable."

There are strong considerations on db performance, if we add more storage. I've been clear about this before. We give housing other attention that does not carry such a burden, and we very carefully and very conservatively examine all other changes.

[FormulaTroll]

"more hooks in houses or more storage is the only attention you consider acceptable."

I'd be happy if we could just get the existing hooks fixed. Way too many of them aren't aligned properly against the wall, causing the hooked item to be set too far back and cut off. Most any item will lose visibility of the plaque it's mounted on. Small items barely show up at all.

[zero]

Not to drift here but I think most of my kin is not to upset about housing we would like changes yes but I think what has mostly been discussed is the lack of any reason to go to our kinhouse for any reason than the inn league port or resources occasionally.

Granted I really have no good idea how it could be more of a center but at the moment we are doubting our need for it other than to show off to ourselves our cool items.

[Darej]

You're faulting the dev team for "not giving attention to housing". My point was, we give housing a lot of attention, and I outlined several aspects of change and attention since its launch. After my explanation, it really does boil down to, "more hooks in houses or more storage is the only attention you consider acceptable."

There are strong considerations on db performance, if we add more storage. I've been clear about this before. We give housing other attention that does not carry such a burden, and we very carefully and very conservatively examine all other changes.

how does allowing bound housing items to be stored in housing storage affect database burden?

we should be able to store housing items in housing chests instead of having to use the far more expensive vaults.

[Tyndaleon]

There are strong considerations on db performance, if we add more storage.

Floon, a question on the above, and I ask genuinely because I for one have missed your comments regarding such: while I can understand conceptually that increasing say, the number of slots and thus the number of potential different types of items say in housing chests, in one's vault/bank or your character's personal inventory might add stress to the database and the access performance of such, would simply increasing stack sizes while keeping the number of inventory slots the same across the board otherwise truly add that much more of a load to database performance?

Again, I'm asking this out of genuine ignorance, because I've been playing just under a year, and haven't seen it addressed before in terms of specifics or a comparative either one to increases the number of storage slots in any of the 3 main areas...and I'd always felt even after they were increased slightly over the last year that stack sizes could stand to be given alot more help. Body loot drops off random mobs for example only stack to 10, crafting items only to 20, etc. Would it truly create an unacceptable performance hit to have literally everything stack to 50 as raw resources already do at the very least?

[floon]

Would it truly create an unacceptable performance hit to have literally everything stack to 50 as raw resources already do at the very least?

No, there's no db problem with increasing stack size. It would be a game design/economic impact decision regarding changing that. We have changed stack sizes in the past, and made formerly unstackable items stackable. It's always something we look at, to see what the need level is there.

There are reasons to not permit endless stacking, so it's not something that will open up to arbitrary stack sizes.

[Jarel]

I like Floon. No beating around the bush with answers to questions.

[Camdidus]

No, there's no db problem with increasing stack size. It would be a game design/economic impact decision regarding changing that. We have changed stack sizes in the past, and made formerly unstackable items stackable. It's always something we look at, to see what the need level is there.

There are reasons to not permit endless stacking, so it's not something that will open up to arbitrary stack sizes.

Hi Floon, I am not at my home pc to check...not that I am surfing while working...anyways!...the Broken Engravings stack to 100. Is this true now for other rep items (council of the north, mathom house, etc) in the world now as well? Not a big deal if not, but then my mind wonders...why not?

Thanks!

[Northwoods]

After my explanation, it really does boil down to, "more hooks in houses or more storage is the only attention you consider acceptable."

I can't speak for the whole community, but I'm fine with limiting the number of items that can be placed in a house. My objection is, and always has been, limiting where I can place them. Set hook placement is what's unacceptable.

[AgamemnonV1]

You're faulting the dev team for "not giving attention to housing". My point was, we give housing a lot of attention, and I outlined several aspects of change and attention since its launch. After my explanation, it really does boil down to, "more hooks in houses or more storage is the only attention you consider acceptable."

Actually I'm the one calling for more hooks; Adder wants to do away with the system altogether. I'm privy to that idea as well, but I have a feeling adding more hooks would be easier. Either way, adding tons of new trophies or the few odd festival items that get reused each year that we have no room to place them in our houses in the first place isn't really what I would call "giving attention to housing," because the only other thing that has happened to housing was that our houses no longer abandon, and I get the feeling that had more to do with the volume of people complaining about that.

You've seen what people have said in this thread and other threads about housing, and they're no small volume of people either, so when does this issue become important? I'm not trying to pressure you here Floon and I'm not going to parade the "Turbine doesn't listen to us!" flag, but it's pretty clear that people are wanting something new out of housing, and I don't mean new items.

[floon]

Either way, adding tons of new trophies or the few odd festival items that get reused each year that we have no room to place them in our houses in the first place isn't really what I would call "giving attention to housing," because the only other thing that has happened to housing was that our houses no longer abandon, and I get the feeling that had more to do with the volume of people complaining about that.

I am stung by the taunt that we respond to customer feedback. Ouch!

If we responded to feedback then, and not now (in exactly the way you want), then, were I not a dev, I would guess that there must be a reason.

[AgamemnonV1]

Sarcasm aside, it's great that you respond to feedback, but it's just too bad that it takes a bunch of us with hammers whapping on your walls to really get your attention. Case in point for another developer: Bethesda is retconning the ending to Fallout 3 because they needed the entire customer base to tell them the ending was terrible instead of figuring that out on their own from the very beginning. Not saying housing is as bad as that, and it's not like you're going to lose customers if housing doesn't improve (as opposed to the people that hold you at gun point telling you that if you don't bring out new content in the next twelve seconds they are hitting the "cancel subscription" button), but hey.



Whap whap whap whap

Oh look, is that you on the other side?

[Adder]

You're faulting the dev team for "not giving attention to housing". My point was, we give housing a lot of attention, and I outlined several aspects of change and attention since its launch. After my explanation, it really does boil down to, "more hooks in houses or more storage is the only attention you consider acceptable."

There are strong considerations on db performance, if we add more storage. I've been clear about this before. We give housing other attention that does not carry such a burden, and we very carefully and very conservatively examine all other changes.

Ok Floon, here's some cake. Now just for a minute or two, stop being "a cranky old man" (I'm just quoting you and Rowan...

Turbine_Floon: Howdy, I'm Floon, Art Director for Lotro. I am a cranky old man.
Turbine_Rowan: Hello everyone, I'm Rowan - Live Producer for LOTRO. and Floon is a cranky old man.

.....) and read this with an open mind without kicking into defensive mode immediately. (And btw, I'm a cranky old man too. Maybe that's why we keep butting our heads together. )

I am NOT faulting the dev team for "not giving attention to housing". I agreed that you do indeed give housing attention. Notice that I left out the phrase 'a lot of'. In the time span of well over a year that has elapsed since housing was introduced, there has been some attention, but not 'a lot'. Perhaps your Art Team has given it a lot of attention, with all of the trophies, the rewards, the vendor items, and the crafted items, but the Design team has been infrequent at best (the hook bug which sinks items into the walls is a good example of what I mean by 'infrequent').

But giving lots of attention to the hookable objects, many of which are bound, that go into the severely restrictive and buggy space of the hook system and its extremely limited, no-bound-items housing storage is like trying to put out a fire with a can of gasoline and a fan.

And as Ag pointed out, I don't want more hooks, I want them gone, as do many, many others. They are a broken, out-dated system that utterly destroys any attempt at personalizing one's own, very expensive money-sink home and which renders the vast majority of your great, and in many cases, awesome decoration objects useless because there simply is no place to put them. Actually, I would be happy with the storage in houses as is if the hooks were history and bound housing items were either 'account bound' thus allowing them to be put into housing chests, or the bind was removed from them.

On a side note here, the storage wouldn't be such an issue for a slight increase if there were a limit imposed on abandoned houses. They not only turn neighborhoods into ghost towns, but they add to the storage db burden as well since most probably have items stored in them.

So yes, the only acceptable attention to housing IS dealing with the hated, atrocious hook system and the storage issue. They ARE the issue, and anything else is simply adding fuel to the fire.

My final thought here...

khrain: The hook system that is used in housing is....unpopular. Any plans to change to a more free-form style?


Turbine_Floon: We're always looking at ways to improve housing. The hook system is what we could do for the live product, to provide as much functionality as possible, and make the limits on house decorating as clear as possible. We're hoping to look at it again in the future, but (as I say a lot) it's a Big Feature, and A Lot Of Work, and we have A Lot Of Other Things To Do.

1. The hook system was as much functionality as was possible?
2. Why did the housing team feel that limits had to be imposed on decorating? If it is related to the storage issue, the same effect could have been attained by simply limiting the number of items allowed in & out of the house with freeform placement. At least that would have allowed more freedom of expression in each player's decorating scheme.
3. "We're hoping to look at it again in the future"!!!! So it isn't even being looked at currently?! Now I"M being cranky.

[Coil]

I haven't posted here yet, but I have kept close tabs on this thread. I use my personal house right now basically as a trophy room. And guess what? With just Moria trophy's and a few SoA trophies I am COMPLETELY out of room. I would love more space or something, shoot free form would be awesome. But alas, it's too much work isn't it?

/signed for Book of Housing

P.S I've yet to see anyone actually go into someone else's house. Guess why?

BECAUSE IT ISN"T EASY TO GET THERE.

(Solution!)

Make the housing port a 1 minute CD and make it fellowship based for one, for two, make housing port people in all the major hubs!

Housing is not accessible is the basic premise of all my fanaticism.

[Sylexis]

I would love that, I've been wanting to turn one of my deluxe rooms into a kitchen but there isn't enough proper furniture for it.

[Narthalion]

Floon my argument isn't just for more hooks, or more storage (though housing item specific storage would be awesome) I would just like to see housing have a more important role.

Currently houses are basically two things right now: storage and trophy rooms. People should want to go to there house other than to drop off items and repair.

I'm thinking a little along the lines of the tavern revelry idea, where social centers would have a greater significance. But this would be specifically to housing. Maybe the party planner could sell awesome stuff if you plan a party with x amount of people. And more items would unlock if more people attended. I'm sure you could come up with some awesome ideas, because you already have. I want to see some of the creativity used in designing the combat systems would be put into the housing system. Not that it is broken, but it can be improved on.

Basically I think housing should have its own significance. Much like traits and legendary weapons are for combat and questing. It needs its very own unique systems and tools, outside of the house itself.

[mickey34]

Floon:

I am in the camp that I want more hooks or more storage (for 7 toons?). If no hooks or storage, I am in favor of a second house (in a different homestead to prevent overcrowding). But if that is an issue, let's do something like this:

1. In SWG, we had an entertainer class that was a class that gave both buffs and debuffs. The entertainer could give you increased xp over time, greater duration of food and health buffs, etc. The entertainer could only do this in a cantina, be it a city cantina or one created in a player-owned neighborhood.

Let's do something similar. Let's put a function in the Kinhouse that provides extra duration to buffs (instead of 20 min for food buffs, increase it to an hour). Hope tokens get an increase. Maybe provide Captain buffs increased duration. It would give us a reason to go to the kinhouse and use the neighborhoods. I don't think I want an entertainer class (I think minstrels could provide this function). It could be an added value that we are missing now.

2. If not for kin house buffs, could going to our home give us a similar buff that Rivendell gives except allow us to keep the buffs for 30 minutes or so?

3. Can we get a stable for our houses?

Thanks Floon. Crank away...

[atteSmythe]

Re: more/no hooks:
Even with the hook system, there are times when I enter my house and start 'skating' around while everything loads. Not to mention the kinship house - I can get all the way to the back stairs before my character starts walking again.

Until performance issues like that can be hammered out, I wouldn't expect anything like mannequins or (my personal favorite) hitching posts.