Dev Diary Feedback: Solving Problems and Making Friends, Parts I & II

[gildhur]

I've never really encountered the lock system in LotRO, so perhaps this is clear to everyone else, but it seems contradictory to me. The locks allow you to spread the instance out over multiple play sessions, but unharvested resources will disappear once the instance shuts down: it certainly sounds an instance will shut down between play sessions.

I would guess that the nodes the areas only up to the lock point will disappear when you return, not the entire instance.

For example: Instance 1 = Area 1, Area 2, Area 3.
You progress through Instance 1 through Area 1 and Area 2, harvesting most of the nodes to that point and killing most of the mobs up to that point. When you enter Area 3, your lock is set to 1+2. You then exit the instance, the grace period ends, and it resets. The next time you come back, even if you missed a node or two, Area 1 and Area 2 will be completely empty. You will go through this time and only Area 3 will have nodes and mobs in it. You then clear that area and all the mobs to the end of Area 3, at which point you get locks 1+2+3. From that point on anytime you go back in the instance, it will be completely empty until the global reset 3 days later.

So it's only completely empty when you get the last lock and presumably have harvested most of the instance already. As long as you harvest everything up to the lock point when you leave, only that part will be empty when you return.

More generally, though, if they're relatively short instances like the Dolven-view LIs, you won't even need the stage locks at all, just run them start to finish twice a week and be done with it.

[skadoink]

Nice idea, and nicely thought out.

Daily repeatable resource gathering quests were something I've been wanting for a very long time. Of course, I wanted them for earlier tiers too, and still do. I hope that you are actively considering implementing them!

However, I'd like to ask why one of the conclusions of your musings was that the lower level quests would be based for lvl58?

That seems high:

The playing time needed to get from 58 to 60 is not that much, and will be less when Bk7 hits live.

The most significant need for resources is for the grinding necessary to get to Master the appropriate tier. Once mastery has been acheived, the demand for crafted goods is low, and the need for resources (for a supreme master) is also lower than for pre-mastery. (NB: I recognise the general nature of the previous statement)

It penalises those that want to play a crafting focused character without focusing on levelling, it also gives credence to those who state that the game focus is to level your character to max as soon as possible, and that's when you can start really playing.

2) Reading between the lines, the resource nodes will be scholar, metals, and wood. What about leather? Yes, I know there are far more hide dropping mobs out there than there are equal level nodes, but then, node can be harvested without combat in many cases, hides cannot.

All in all, however, I'd like to say a hearty well done, and 'lets have some more!'

[Danluyen]

Having run most of the craft instances, I can say they are pretty good with the exception of one in the Redhorn Lodes which was near impossible to navigate (although that will likely work itself out with repetition).

They are certainly very good places for crafting resources, item experience and Lothlorien barter items.

My only complaints would be the resource chests which have pretty lame loot compared to the XP runes and rep barter leafs.As wel, the instances are all the same formula, collect x items, kill x mobs and kill boss. I really wish you had made them more interesting like some of the Dolven View instances. You can always harvest nodes once the instance is clear. The other minor item is that it would be nice if one of the barter/quest guys was also a vendor.

[Russano]

I would guess that the nodes the areas only up to the lock point will disappear when you return, not the entire instance.

For example: Instance 1 = Area 1, Area 2, Area 3.
You progress through Instance 1 through Area 1 and Area 2, harvesting most of the nodes to that point and killing most of the mobs up to that point. When you enter Area 3, your lock is set to 1+2. You then exit the instance, the grace period ends, and it resets. The next time you come back, even if you missed a node or two, Area 1 and Area 2 will be completely empty. You will go through this time and only Area 3 will have nodes and mobs in it. You then clear that area and all the mobs to the end of Area 3, at which point you get locks 1+2+3. From that point on anytime you go back in the instance, it will be completely empty until the global reset 3 days later.

So it's only completely empty when you get the last lock and presumably have harvested most of the instance already. As long as you harvest everything up to the lock point when you leave, only that part will be empty when you return.

It sounded slightly different to me: my guess was once you enter a stage, that stage will be blanked when the instance shuts down - whether or not you get past the lock to the following stage.

I think it would have to be that way to prevent people from "camping" the instance. Otherwise, you could enter Stage 1, farm the nodes, then log to let the instance reset, and repeat ad nauseum. If the instance can track which individual nodes have been mined, there'd be no need to de-spawn all unharvested nodes in the first place.

But it would be nice to get some clarification on this.

-R

[Scenario]

I've never really encountered the lock system in LotRO, so perhaps this is clear to everyone else, but it seems contradictory to me. The locks allow you to spread the instance out over multiple play sessions, but unharvested resources will disappear once the instance shuts down: it certainly sounds an instance will shut down between play sessions.

If you trigger a lock and do not harvest the resources that were associated with that lock, they will go away if you reload the instance. We are using locks to limit the frequency/available of the resources in these spaces. Normal play-throughs will see players not even worrying about losing the resources (as they will go through the entire instance in one shot). The locks are in place to make sure that should something unforeseen occur to the player, the loss will be minimized while also making sure that reset-loopholes are removed to keep the flow of resources balanced.

Is it simply impossible to keep the state of the various nodes "in memory" between sessions, so you have to track the locks instead? I guess this isn't a problem if the resources are easy to get to, but otherwise it seems like anyone who has difficulty getting through a stage and leaves it for later will also lose out on the resources of that stage.

The locks are a resource-inexpensive method of maintaining state. Otherwise, we'd have to keep the instance around on the server until the reset time hits. And that many extra instances hanging around all the time - not something that would make our servers happy. We work within the systems we have available. The Stage-lock system is something that has, mostly, been used for big ticket instances but we are trying to find other interesting applications for it.

I'm also a bit nervous about this bumper crop of repeatable instances. It reminds me of the various Olthoi pincers, Eater jaws and what have you that could be turned in for XP on a timer from back in Asheron's Call. Now I certainly turned in many a body part for fun and profit over the years, but I noticed that after a while it became almost a chore: time to go back to the Olthoi mines, as it were. I cannot access Moria, so I'm not sure how the IA instances feel. But the more such things are added to the game, the more I worry about playing LotRO becoming a series of work-like chores. I hope that will not be the case here.

Anything can become a chore if you do it enough. The trick is to make enough varied content across the board such that you can choose what you want to do when you want to do it and have enough repeatable content available to make it reduce the grind sensation. Instead of running these every day and feeling burnt out on them, why not switch it up - run these twice a week, run the mirrors twice a week, run IA instances twice a week? It isn't a min-max solution but it does allow for variety.

Finally, I'm sad to see that these instances will cover only levels 58 and 60. Not only does that continue the trend of ignoring those of us who don't have the expansion, but it seems a bit absurd to focus two whole sets of instances on such a short range of the leveling spread. I understand that demand for the newest resources is abnormally high in the wake of Moria's release, but lower tiers of crafting still exist and they need resources too. I dread the thought of having to dredge the Trollshaws for Dwarf Iron again; I'd love to try out some new instances with the chance at getting some DI as part of the reward.

Crafting Resources cover a very broad spread of items and skills. Unfortunately, developing instances to cover all Craft tiers was not feasible within the time that was available (I had 4 weeks to do all this work before I was pulled back to my other duties). As far as resource availability is concerned, Tier 6 is the worst off considering the low number of regions that can support it and that was why it was chosen.

[anwar]

Sounds great, but really think the major shortages are ore (k-iron and k-copper, too much k-gold and k-tin) and hides, I have all professions and find wood is not that hard to accumulate but ore and hides have really been difficult....this is a welcome addition.

[Vikarr]

Sounds great, but really think the major shortages are ore (k-iron and k-copper, too much k-gold and k-tin) and hides, I have all professions and find wood is not that hard to accumulate but ore and hides have really been difficult....this is a welcome addition.

I wish you could make hope tokens from K-Gold

[dorkchops]

These instances should help a ton considering the super low k-iron node population.

[swedishviking]

It would definitely have been nice to hit all the tiers with these - but I only had 4 weeks, not 24 Perhaps for a future update.

just putting this out there....the recent uproar over quest arrows and what not, is probably a good indication that there those people who are going to say that turbine is making the game too easy blah blah blah....

[Russano]

Yay! Even more feedback!

The locks are in place to make sure that should something unforeseen occur to the player, the loss will be minimized while also making sure that reset-loopholes are removed to keep the flow of resources balanced.

The locks are a resource-inexpensive method of maintaining state. Otherwise, we'd have to keep the instance around on the server until the reset time hits. And that many extra instances hanging around all the time - not something that would make our servers happy. We work within the systems we have available. The Stage-lock system is something that has, mostly, been used for big ticket instances but we are trying to find other interesting applications for it.

Okay, I follow you. It would be nice if the resources would persist, but technical limitations are what they are.

Crafting Resources cover a very broad spread of items and skills. Unfortunately, developing instances to cover all Craft tiers was not feasible within the time that was available (I had 4 weeks to do all this work before I was pulled back to my other duties). As far as resource availability is concerned, Tier 6 is the worst off considering the low number of regions that can support it and that was why it was chosen.

Starting with tier 6 makes sense, although I hope that you'll get a chance to make lower tier versions soon. But even focusing on tier 6 materials, the two sets of instances cover a level gap of only two levels when that tier spans 10 levels. Why wasn't the lower level set focused on level 53 or so? That way you wouldn't have to be within shouting distance of the level cap to try the instances at all. Would lowering the low level version have caused problems?

Thanks again for taking the time to comment, Scenario.

-R

[ArcticAurora]

I whole-hearted disapprove of these new instances and the approach given. Given the assignment and objective, I can agree it was approached using good methodology to reach a desired outcome, but the end-goal I find to be flawed and detrimental to the greater community.

The objective is to give people access to crafting materials that they could not otherwise gather, due to lack of characters/professions. Whatever happened to those consignment-order NPCs? They didn't work? Nope, they worked just fine, it's that people didn't want to use them, because the rewards were randomish and trash. So rather than quickly and simply improve these, Turbine ate up 4 valuable weeks of a dev's time reinventing the wheel. Between the AH, friends, kins, or even the trade channel - how is it hard to come by materials? It's not, really. The only thing I don't have experience in is a much larger server, like Brandywine, but on Vilya there's more resources than I can shake a stick at. Scholar nodes are littered all over the place, same with ore nodes.

We'll wait and see I guess, but I don't understand the love-in for these instances. I see it as just another step catering to 'hold-my-hand-gamers.' My network of friends and personal alts can easily provide whatever I need, for myself or others. I do this by working at it, even with and in spite of competition. If someone takes an ore node I had in my sights, I move on, not head to the nearest soapbox and tell everyone how badly I have things, and why I should have a closet in my house where I can grind prospecting in solitude. If you've been wronged that badly, try becoming a country singer over playing competitive online games.

[swedishviking]

and so it begins.....

[Scenario]

The objective is to give people access to crafting materials that they could not otherwise gather, due to lack of characters/professions. Whatever happened to those consignment-order NPCs? They didn't work? Nope, they worked just fine, it's that people didn't want to use them, because the rewards were randomish and trash. So rather than quickly and simply improve these, Turbine ate up 4 valuable weeks of a dev's time reinventing the wheel. Between the AH, friends, kins, or even the trade channel - how is it hard to come by materials? It's not, really. The only thing I don't have experience in is a much larger server, like Brandywine, but on Vilya there's more resources than I can shake a stick at. Scholar nodes are littered all over the place, same with ore nodes.

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

It should also be noted that while the core of these instances are meant to appeal to crafters (or at the very least resource harvesters) that the instances have rewards that are worthwhile beyond just crafting. And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

[skadoink]

and so it begins.....

And so what begins? Are you referring to Arctic's post? If so, what was wrong with it? I may not agree with him at all, but at least it was a well reasoned and written post. He gave his conclusions and some background as to how he arrived at it. Surely this forum has enough room for varied viewpoints?

[Cleo256]

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

Definitely. I have the ore consignment going on two of my alts pretty much constantly, but it's not entertaining content. The only reason I even do the ore one is because it's close enough to the Thorin's stable to be worth my time. I used to do the hides consignment in the Shire until I just couldn't stand taking the time for it any more.

These sound much more engaging, and like they will reward me for the time I put into them.

Will the Deep Claws in the instances be enough to supply Extraordinary Hide needs? Extraordinary Hides seem the rarest resource there is.

[BTiger]

Huzzah for crafting instances. More content is welcome, ty.
However as an at least supreme level crafter in every craft and a kin level rep with every guild except tailoring and cooking, it seems to me you guys have to next work on making T6 worthwhile again across the board so it doesn't go to waste.

I hope you guys have some ideas..and I do realize some stuff is coming with book7 and book8. Hope it works out!

[swisskdl]

As far as resource availability is concerned, Tier 6 is the worst off considering the low number of regions that can support it and that was why it was chosen.

I disagree. T6 is the ore that is found in Moria. Moria is where we spend 90%+ of our gameplay time now.

T6 resources are in abundance right now. My map home is in Moria, I log off in Moria, I login in Moria, I run instances in Moria, I finish quests in Moria, I do everything in Moria.

The only time I venture out of Moria is to help low level friends or everyonce in awhile play my low level characters.


I had the same experience Pre-Mom, T5 crafting went quick, it was T1-T4 that was sort of a pain. Plus, since we were level 50 for so long we were always in T5 regions, where T5 nodes were.

Just like now, we are always in Moria, so we are always gathering T6 nodes.

Getting T6 materials isn't a problem, getting out of Moria and forcing yourself to run around the lower level regions looking around randomly for lower Tiered nodes is the problem. At least for me.


For instance, my SM jewelor is only level 40, never set foot in Moria or any T6 zone yet. He got SM from just doing T6 gem stones my main gathered and doing the jewelor guild recipes. He was only at T2 in Jewelor a month or 2 ago. I had to buy all the T2-T4 stuff to get through those tiers, my main had enough T5 beryls to get him through that tier just like he got through T6.

The max tiers(T5 previously and T6 now) are not hard to get the resourses. You get them all just doing your regular day to day questing and leveling up in Moria.

It's getting those lower tiers done that is the problem and where these types of instances would have shined in my opinion.


Why not put a selection box menu at the start of these instances you have and just let us select which tier of resourses spawn in these instances? Seems like an easy enough change/update. They'd still have their locks, so I could do T3 once a week, T4 the next week, etc etc etc.

The instances would still be level 58+ mob difficulty and everything else the same, just the tier of nodes that spawn would be selectable by the player.

[ArcticAurora]

and so it begins.....

I won't apologize until you show me where in the Official Discussion Threads forum where it asks for Feedback is it not allowed for dissenting feedback to be displayed. Shall I make a vague/'roll eyeballs' quote in return?

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

It should also be noted that while the core of these instances are meant to appeal to crafters (or at the very least resource harvesters) that the instances have rewards that are worthwhile beyond just crafting. And as always - more content is better than less, correct?

I don't think anyone argues that they are not engaging, I know I certainly find them bland. That said, not every NPC one engages should be a highlight of their gaming career. It's a walking talking pixel stick, so get what you need and move on What was lacking with those consignment NPCs was the rewards. They were random, in too little quantity, and largely unknown. Timers can be altered, and during which a player could do other things than grinding resources.

I'm not seeing what the particular need was for this? Was it lack of desire to gather, lack of availability or variety due to over-farming/node camping? There's so many scholar mats that drop from mods, the friends I usually mail them to have asked me to stop because they're overloaded. I feel the net effect of these new instances will include additional surplus resources on the AH, further lowering the value and diminishing the hard work that others do to acquire such (especially true if extended to lower tiers). To help keep the Tin and Gold nodes down, and the K-Iron spawning, I regularly mine them to vendor or AH at minimal prices, what ever's higher. I think the real issue here comes down to catering to those who have less time or will (mostly the latter) to put in the currently required amount of work to gather materials or pay others for their time doing such.

I appreciate your reply and obvious interest in this, as well as your desire to gather feedback, however I feel it unfair to pin the notion of all content being worthwhile (AKA, the more, the better) on this matter. End justifies the means, right, or change for change-sake? I'll say no, new content for the sake of content isn't always better (See Guard forum, or other classes/things messed up by 'always good new content' - but that's a side issue, I digress). Attention given to content may be nice, but having an idea of the development cycle and the gaming industry tells me that your time could have been better put to use re-organizing the existing mechanism of consignment orders, even if you had to flash it up a bit. Unless of course I'm misunderstanding the core reason for why crafting was attached for these instances.

Was it:
- to provide small group content with an added bonus of having free crafting resources as a side perk
- to provide a crafting resource run with the added perk of xp and the usual mob drops
- both
- other, please explain

Either way, crafting is being diminished via dumping materials into the market, lowering prices, demand, and seeming to 'dumb down' yet another area of the game that previously someone would have to work for or pay someone else for. If this was an effort in part to help give attention to crafting, I think the boat was missed here. Crafted content is largely useless because of other gear options, and making more crafting materials will not improve this situation any. I contend that this is another step towards babysitter-gaming, and while it would never be officially called as such, I think we can see it catering to those with less will to do things. I look forward to gaining further insight.

[Kahuna]

T6 resources are in abundance right now.

i haven't found them to be "in abundance". just getting to lvl 60, picking up what i found along the way, I've not found enough khazad iron to even bother starting T6 weaponsmith. admittedly, this was mostly running with my kinmates, who also have T6 metal-users, and therefore there's a lot of internal competition for the ore in addition to competing with everyone else on the server.

That said, depending on the time of day, there are times where the Redhorns are sparsely enough populated that I can go there specifically to find ore, and actually come back with enough to feel like i've done something besides run around in circles. Maybe. I do have a kinmate who's mastered T6, but he spends a LOT of time just out farming ore.

It could also be argued that the consignment orders are not entirely successful because their mechanic is not a particularly engaging one and that players/crafters might better appreciate actually collecting the resources themselves as opposed to waiting out a timer.

That's not been my experience. Maybe they've changed since original introduction, but the first time I did the wood & ore quests was the last time - I waited 24 hours for 4-5 pieces of raw materials in each case. Not very productive, considering that at least for the wood, I could have found more wood just running back and forth to the NPC than I got as the quest reward.

[ArcticAurora]

*clip*

That's not been my experience. Maybe they've changed since original introduction, but the first time I did the wood & ore quests was the last time - I waited 24 hours for 4-5 pieces of raw materials in each case. Not very productive, considering that at least for the wood, I could have found more wood just running back and forth to the NPC than I got as the quest reward.

If it's a matter of ore depletion, then it's a server node regeneration rate that they would tweak, nothing more. That said, I play on Vilya, and at no point have I had an ore shortage, and I've done 24-shifts, and day or night makes no big difference.

RE: Consignments - again, it's the reward that sucked. Actually improve this and we're golden - if that's what the issue here. And by improve I don't mean +15% rewards and then wash hands of the matter.

[Laeden]

I like it, but I don't like that you have to be level 58+ or 60+ to do the instances. What about all the lower level crafting tiers? It can be very difficult to gather a good amount of resources when there are two or more people working an area for that sole purpose.

There's a lot of things I don't like about the LOTRO crafting system, but my biggest complaint has got to be the fact that it's tied to a character level as opposed to your crafting skill level.

[swisskdl]

i haven't found them to be "in abundance". just getting to lvl 60, picking up what i found along the way, I've not found enough khazad iron to even bother starting T6 weaponsmith. admittedly, this was mostly running with my kinmates, who also have T6 metal-users, and therefore there's a lot of internal competition for the ore in addition to competing with everyone else on the server.

That said, depending on the time of day, there are times where the Redhorns are sparsely enough populated that I can go there specifically to find ore, and actually come back with enough to feel like i've done something besides run around in circles. Maybe. I do have a kinmate who's mastered T6, but he spends a LOT of time just out farming ore.

What I mean is, once you are level 50, and more so once you hit 60 and are stuck at 60 for a year, you are 90 percent of your playtime or more in T6 resource zones.

Until they up the level cap and come out with a T7 in crafting, the rest of your play time will be around T6 nodes.

You have to go out of your way to get lower tiered nodes. T6 nodes will be everywhere you quest/play now-a-days. From Moria and now to Lothlorien (if there are crafting resources out there) to the next little zone they introduce. They are all T6 only zones and since you are level 50+ thats where you will be most likely doing your everyday things.

[ArcticAurora]

I like it, but I don't like that you have to be level 58+ or 60+ to do the instances. What about all the lower level crafting tiers? It can be very difficult to gather a good amount of resources when there are two or more people working an area for that sole purpose.

There's a lot of things I don't like about the LOTRO crafting system, but my biggest complaint has got to be the fact that it's tied to a character level as opposed to your crafting skill level.

All due respect, but lower level tiers being hard to gather stuff for? You're serious? It's all over the place. It's abundant and plentiful, in a variety of zones and areas. It'd take a LOT more than 2 people to make gathering difficult. It comes down to will-power and people wanting stuff handed to them on a platter (make it a silver platter too, and you can gather the silver and smith it for me too). Turbine currently is catering to this crowd at the expense of those of us who put in hard work. Now we're getting the shaft by way of misplaced development time on non-issues as well as having crafting mats given to others for 'free'

Actually their crafting system really isn't tier to level that much, beyond resource spawn areas and those 2nd anvil quests, aside from that, it's wide open. All you need it alts/friends to give you stuff and help get those crafting quest materials and you could be a lvl 2 SGM whatever you want.

[Thoroval]

Between the AH, friends, kins, or even the trade channel - how is it hard to come by materials? It's not, really. The only thing I don't have experience in is a much larger server, like Brandywine, but on Vilya there's more resources than I can shake a stick at. Scholar nodes are littered all over the place, same with ore nodes.

Don't have the money for the AH, friends and kin mates are busy trying to level their own professions, and Trade prices are nearly always stupidly high. I agree that Scholar nodes are pretty easy to get and wood isn't real terrible, but on Landroval the sheer number of Explorer characters ripping ore nodes from the landscape is disheartening.

Metalsmith, weaponsmith, and tailor are the professions I haven't SM'd yet. Due to lack of resources I'm not close on tailor (still low in proficiency) and haven't even started weaponsmithing after all this time. I'm looking forward to these new instances.

[Merciful_Death]

With my main being a Historian, I do not see myself even needing these new instances. Unless some are built for tier 2, 3, 4, and 5 materials.

Since the first hour I spent in there, I have called Moria "Scholar's Revenge", due to the HUGE number of scholar nodes there.

I have mastered tier 6, gotten kindred in my crafting guild, and I have about 12 full stacks of tier 6 materials sitting collecting dust.

I can occasionally sell crafting bonus scrolls, but I can't even give away potions thanks to the mirror quests.

And the crafting journals? I can only make one if someone who wants it gives me the flake to put into it.

Now, if this dev diary said that flakes were being put as a rare drop in tier 6 scholar and wood nodes, I'd have been a whole lot more excited.

As it is, I have every crafting journal recipie memorized, and another 15 of various types in my bank. Taking up space.

And thanks to legendary items, no woodworkers or weaponsmiths are even LOOKING for crafting journals.

At least I can go garden if I get bored....