XP Reducer

[Beldacar]

So basically, you are going to continue to disregard every last word floon posts and keep up with the "No it isn't, you're a liar" theme. I used to not have a problem with this feature being added, now I hope you never get it.

It is possible to disagree with someone's opinions, even a developer's opinions, without calling that person a liar. I am extremely offended that you imply that anyone in favor of this suggestion is calling anyone a liar.

I guess you really just want to get this thread locked, the same way your name-calling and insults got the previous thread on this topic locked. Great tactic: if you can't win the debate, call the other side names so the moderators will lock the thread....

[Thrandiul110]

This thread is like gum. It's less flavorful the more it lasts.

[Beldacar]

This is not Dev/QA thinking..

A Developer or Tester has to think this about every last thing they allow in a game:

"My customers will be both vastly smarter and vastly dumber than me and have immeasurably larger amounts of time to break any system I let into the game, both innocently and maliciously. The Law of Unintended Consequences is no friend to me, my company or our bottom line."

Relevant if it's an untested, never-tried-before, feature. This is not the case. Both SOE and Blizzard have successfully implemented this feature. I'm sure they took CS calls into account.

[Sigram]

Relevant if it's an untested, never-tried-before, feature. This is not the case. Both SOE and Blizzard have successfully implemented this feature. I'm sure they took CS calls into account.

IMO, that is flawed logic.

Sure, others have done it. That does not mean that it is a feature they can simply plug into the game.

[DrWookie]

I'm wondering how many of you understand what the K.I.S.S. principle is. For those who don't understand this acronym it is Keep It Simple, Stupid. This is a principle well known to anyone who has served in the U.S. Military for any length of time. The Department of Defence knows full well that the majority of the equipment in use in the U.S. Military has to be used by personnel who have not graduated from High School. There is a reason why the Claymore Mine has molded into the body of the mine the words "Front toward Enemy." I have watched recruits set them up facing the wrong direction. Then they could not understand why I just told them that they just killed themselves and their entire squad if they were to leave it like that.

While I don't have a problem with this "XP Toggle" a small, vocal group here are advocating for I can understand where Floon is coming from with his reasoning. He is following the K.I.S.S. principle. As a combat veteran and former Drill Sgt in the Army I have had plenty of experience with idiots and morons who even when lead by the hand still can't complete the training or the mission without screwing up royally. I have seen this in-game as well,

I understand where you are coming from, but I feel like some pretty simple solutions have been proposed to deal with the problem.

A. You can make it time-limited. So you have to reapply the command every hour. This would protect people who "forgot to turn it off" from doing serious damage. Alternatively it could turn off when you log out and you have to turn it back on.

B. Obscure command. This would make it difficult for people to "accidentally" turn off XP. No one is going to "accidentally" type in "/experience off" into the chat window. Make that the ONLY way to activate it...seems fairly simple.

C. Provide a simple pop-up reminder saying "You have your experience turned off, are you sure you want that?". Or better yet, make it pop up EVERY time you turn in a quest with XP off...every quest would tell you "Your experience is turned off, are you sure you don't want to receive experience from this quest?" and then you have to click yes. This ensures no one "forgets" to turn it off before they turn in a quest (assuming they want XP from the quest).


Those 3 options (they could even all be done together) are all fairly simple, and would make the system fairly idiot proof.

I really don't know what you would expect to do beyond that. If people STILL make mistakes with those 3 systems in place, i really don't understand how they are playing the game in the first place.


All 3 of those require very little time and effort...it is just a command line, with some sort of timer associated, and a pop up window. That is nothing compared to adding even a single emote into the game (with all the animation possibilities). The actual system alone isn't that complicated either...you are just turning off all experience...that is probably a single line of code somewhere that just needs to be toggled one way or the other (I bet they can already turn off experience server side for testing reasons, just like they can probably make someone any level they want).

I really still don't see the "time consuming" or "manpower" argument against the feature...while I agree places like the Moors need to be worked on, those aren't just simple things. This is a fairly simple thing, and it would be fairly easy to "KISS" (keep it simple, stupid) it.

[Beldacar]

IMO, that is flawed logic.

Sure, others have done it. That does not mean that it is a feature they can simply plug into the game.

Regarding implementation issues, sure. For all we know LotRO is based on undocumented spaghetti code and the programmers currently working on it shudder every time a designer requests a feature that involves modifying actual code. I'd like to believe that's not true, but it very well could be.

However, when we're talking about things like an increase in CS tickets, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if two of the most successful companies in the business have decided the utility of the feature outweighs potential CS issues, they probably did their homework.

[DrWookie]

IMO, that is flawed logic.

Sure, others have done it. That does not mean that it is a feature they can simply plug into the game.

You are applying his logic to a separate issue though. He isn't saying because other games have done it, it should be easy to program. He is saying the fact that other games have done it SUGGESTS that the customer service issue isn't a huge deal, because if they were getting thousands of customer service complaints from the feature they would have probably removed it (or they wouldn't have added it in the first place).

It is an assumption, but it's a pretty sound assumption. It's not like Blizzard or SOE like to flood their customer service with complaints, so they probably considered that when adding the feature.

[DrWookie]

This thread is like gum. It's less flavorful the more it lasts.

You can always spit the gum out (AKA: STOP READING THIS THREAD)

You obviously like it enough to keep coming back for more

[Sigram]

Regarding implementation issues, sure. For all we know LotRO is based on undocumented spaghetti code and the programmers currently working on it shudder every time a designer requests a feature that involves modifying actual code. I'd like to believe that's not true, but it very well could be.

However, when we're talking about things like an increase in CS tickets, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if two of the most successful companies in the business have decided the utility of the feature outweighs potential CS issues, they probably did their homework.

I don't know how Blizzard or SOE does it, but in DAoC XP gain could be turned off. It was introduced when they introduced RVR battlefields that capped at certain levels. So say you wanted to stay in the 20-30 battlefield, you could turn off XP gain so you would not go above that lvl (as you gained XP killing other players.)

Assuming (I know!) that Blizzard and SOE did it for similar reasons

Could it be that the cost of the potential CS issues is outweighed by the need for players to remain a specific level, for level limited content?

If that is the case, there is nothing like that in LOTRO. In this case, the cost of CS issues may outweigh the need itself.

[Thrandiul110]

You can always spit the gum out (AKA: STOP READING THIS THREAD)

You obviously like it enough to keep coming back for more

Yes, but then the $.50 I put into the machine would be a waste. (Plus it's humorous to watch people go back and forth like it's some sort of political debate)

[henry316]

(Plus it's humorous to watch people go back and forth like it's some sort of political debate)

Oh, it's no metaphor. This IS a political debate. You give 'political debates' too much credit.

[Sigram]

Oh, it's no metaphor. This IS a political debate. You give 'political debates' too much credit.

At least, this debate is more fun than any political one I've witnessed - and I love talking politics!

[DrWookie]

Yes, but then the $.50 I put into the machine would be a waste. (Plus it's humorous to watch people go back and forth like it's some sort of political debate)

A waste? You enjoy gum for a little while, so you are paying for that initial enjoyment. If you don't think 50 cents is worth the 5 minutes or so of enjoyment then you shouldn't buy the gum in the first place...

Of course this thread has nothing to do with gum...but still. I like the kind with all the colors (and the giraffe...I forget the name) even though the flavor lasts like 10 seconds. Definitely not a waste though

[Thrandiul110]

A waste? You enjoy gum for a little while, so you are paying for that initial enjoyment. If you don't think 50 cents is worth the 5 minutes or so of enjoyment then you shouldn't buy the gum in the first place...

Of course this thread has nothing to do with gum...but still. I like the kind with all the colors (and the giraffe...I forget the name) even though the flavor lasts like 10 seconds. Definitely not a waste though

I'm more of a jawbreaker man. However, that would have been a bad metaphor. Jawbreakers are sweet all the way through to the conclusion.

This thread was sweet at first, but no matter how dull it has become, it just keeps going until someone spits it out or uses it in place of duct tape.

[DrWookie]

I'm more of a jawbreaker man. However, that would have been a bad metaphor. Jawbreakers are sweet all the way through to the conclusion.

This thread was sweet at first, but no matter how dull it has become, it just keeps going until someone spits it out or uses it in place of duct tape.

Just because a developer says he doesn't like the idea doesn't mean we can't continue to discuss it. I personally have no hope for it every being added, but I still don't mind talking about how cool it would be if it were added.

I actually made a character yesterday after thinking about how cool it would be to have a "shire protector" at like level 10 or 15 who never leaves the shire, except maybe on occasion to the "big city" of Bree...Like a REAL HOBBIT! (Unfortunately my hobbit will probably pass that level in a couple of days)

[Khafar]

I guess you really just want to get this thread locked...

Actually, they've fairly routinely locked threads where two groups of people with entrenched positions just argue around and around in circles for days (or even weeks). Given that history, I wouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised if they locked this one. And if people start treating floon's attempts to participate here in an uncivil manner, a lock is virtually guaranteed.

Khafar

[DrWookie]

Actually, they've fairly routinely locked threads where two groups of people with entrenched positions just argue around and around in circles for days (or even weeks). Given that history, I wouldn't be even the slightest bit surprised if they locked this one. And if people start treating floon's attempts to participate here in an uncivil manner, a lock is virtually guaranteed.

Khafar

I feel like people are (generally) being decently civil...though I haven't read every page.

[DarkCntry]

Regarding implementation issues, sure. For all we know LotRO is based on undocumented spaghetti code and the programmers currently working on it shudder every time a designer requests a feature that involves modifying actual code. I'd like to believe that's not true, but it very well could be.

However, when we're talking about things like an increase in CS tickets, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if two of the most successful companies in the business have decided the utility of the feature outweighs potential CS issues, they probably did their homework.

You are applying his logic to a separate issue though. He isn't saying because other games have done it, it should be easy to program. He is saying the fact that other games have done it SUGGESTS that the customer service issue isn't a huge deal, because if they were getting thousands of customer service complaints from the feature they would have probably removed it (or they wouldn't have added it in the first place).

It is an assumption, but it's a pretty sound assumption. It's not like Blizzard or SOE like to flood their customer service with complaints, so they probably considered that when adding the feature.

The assumption on this line of reasoning relies on how deep the company's pockets can go. SoE and Blizzard have mammoth CS teams, I know Activision recently allocated another 100 or so people to aid the Blizzard CS teams. SoE also has a mountain of people which do nothing but deal with CS issues directly. What is different about these two companies and Turbine is that Turbine doesn't make oodles of money that they can place more overhead at hiring obnoxious amounts of staff.

Now, looking at Turbine's CSR employment call, it would appear they hire based upon limited tenures. This is a fairly common practice in this industry and it makes sense to why to do it. On the other hand, it does create problems for people who are actively seeking a long-term job (something most are doing these days) when their estimated tenure is (as the page states) 3 months.

Also looking, it would appear the CS staff is shared amongst DDO, AC, and LOTRO...this means that at any given time a single CSR could be facing 3 issues requiring immediate attention. What floon is trying to get across, and what seems most are not paying attention to, is that while it may be a small number of people who do screw up and place support tickets, that number adds up and detracts from other serious issues. When you have to factor in support channels for the other 2 games on top of LOTRO, that creates a massive backlog probability. We're already seeing 2+ week turn-arounds on support issues, and that doesn't even factor in posts in the support forums (to which Valerie is doing a great job).

[FoxFire]

I feel like people are (generally) being decently civil...though I haven't read every page.

Indeed this HAS been a fairly civil discussion for the most part. I think there are probably a hand full of posts which step over (or very close to) the line.

I've only seen threads closed when such uncivil exchanges escalate. I've seen some posts (primarily from the anti side) which I believe could be an attempt to shut down this thread, fortunately nobody has taken the bait, and any such banter has died off fairly quickly.

All-in-all though, I think this is a valuable thread for Turbine. If they do decide to put this feature in at some point, there have been a wide variety of very good ideas on how to go about doing it, and the reasons it would make LoTRO an even greater game (Play style flexibility is, in my opinion, one of the most valuable things any MMORPG can have).

[DrWookie]

The assumption on this line of reasoning relies on how deep the company's pockets can go. SoE and Blizzard have mammoth CS teams, I know Activision recently allocated another 100 or so people to aid the Blizzard CS teams. SoE also has a mountain of people which do nothing but deal with CS issues directly. What is different about these two companies and Turbine is that Turbine doesn't make oodles of money that they can place more overhead at hiring obnoxious amounts of staff.

Now, looking at Turbine's CSR employment call, it would appear they hire based upon limited tenures. This is a fairly common practice in this industry and it makes sense to why to do it. On the other hand, it does create problems for people who are actively seeking a long-term job (something most are doing these days) when their estimated tenure is (as the page states) 3 months.

Also looking, it would appear the CS staff is shared amongst DDO, AC, and LOTRO...this means that at any given time a single CSR could be facing 3 issues requiring immediate attention. What floon is trying to get across, and what seems most are not paying attention to, is that while it may be a small number of people who do screw up and place support tickets, that number adds up and detracts from other serious issues. When you have to factor in support channels for the other 2 games on top of LOTRO, that creates a massive backlog probability. We're already seeing 2+ week turn-arounds on support issues, and that doesn't even factor in posts in the support forums (to which Valerie is doing a great job).

You do bring up a good point. I don't doubt that customer service is something that turbine needs to think about when they are considering new features.

That said, I still think there are ideas presented in this thread (I outlined 3 of them in a previous post on the last page) that would eliminate the vast majority of complaints I could see coming from this feature. You can't eliminate everything (i'm sure they still get people complaining because they accidentally sold something etc...), but I think you can manage this feature quite well.

It is a fairly easy feature to put in, so they could eliminate a lot of the problems just by making it fairly difficult to turn on (you have to type out a command), that way no one is going to just "accidentally" hit a button. They could also limit the amount of time it is on (to an hour, or one active play session etc...) and require you to REACTIVE. They could also provide simple pop up warnings when you turn in quests to remind you that your experience is turned off. None of that would be very difficult to implement, and would solve (i think) a lot of the potential customer service complaints.

[Garethporlest18]

Doesn't matter to me really. It's not like it would affect any of us who wouldn't use it.

[DarkCntry]

You do bring up a good point. I don't doubt that customer service is something that turbine needs to think about when they are considering new features.

That said, I still think there are ideas presented in this thread (I outlined 3 of them in a previous post on the last page) that would eliminate the vast majority of complaints I could see coming from this feature. You can't eliminate everything (i'm sure they still get people complaining because they accidentally sold something etc...), but I think you can manage this feature quite well.

It is a fairly easy feature to put in, so they could eliminate a lot of the problems just by making it fairly difficult to turn on (you have to type out a command), that way no one is going to just "accidentally" hit a button. They could also limit the amount of time it is on (to an hour, or one active play session etc...) and require you to REACTIVE. They could also provide simple pop up warnings when you turn in quests to remind you that your experience is turned off. None of that would be very difficult to implement, and would solve (i think) a lot of the potential customer service complaints.

I agree, there are always steps that can be taken to ensure people have ample warning and notification...sadly, in practice, this doesn't always amount to much.

I cannot count how many times people have been demanding answers to downtimes even when there have been posts on the forums, updates in the launcher (You know, that thing everyone has to see before starting the game), and in-game notifications (that are huge, orange, and in all chat channels and across your screen) about such events.

One of the better ideas would be to put gained XP while toggled off into a pool to which you can either take or trash. The problem therein is that it would require another overlay onto the XP system, which would be a rather interesting addition to code in. I'm sure how things are looking, producing a mentoring system that takes into account, say, typing '/mentor (player)' that will activate a no-xp gain up to the point of them leaving the group. That's a more direct approach with using flags with if comments than coding in a halt comment that could, if FUBARd, affect people who don't want it to affect them.

[Tiempko]

I actually made a character yesterday after thinking about how cool it would be to have a "shire protector" at like level 10 or 15 who never leaves the shire, except maybe on occasion to the "big city" of Bree...Like a REAL HOBBIT! (Unfortunately my hobbit will probably pass that level in a couple of days)

Yep, I've done that. I have two slots ready for the day (if it ever comes) that there is an XP slider or toggle - a hobbit warden and a hobbit minstrel.

In fact, my kinship has, on a couple of occasions, went on adventures with a raid of hobbits (7 or more in number) where we adventure without XP.

(Which makes me wonder. If such a tool is ever implemented, I strongly suspect that those who play hobbits will, by far, make the greatest use of it. The Shire . . . at least on Landroval . . . may be teaming with low-level hobbits just being hobbits. They would be gardening, cooking, drinking ale, smoking pipeweed, partying, and gawking in disbelief that any hobbit would even THINK of leaving the Shire.)

[DrWookie]

I agree, there are always steps that can be taken to ensure people have ample warning and notification...sadly, in practice, this doesn't always amount to much.

I cannot count how many times people have been demanding answers to downtimes even when there have been posts on the forums, updates in the launcher (You know, that thing everyone has to see before starting the game), and in-game notifications (that are huge, orange, and in all chat channels and across your screen) about such events.

One of the better ideas would be to put gained XP while toggled off into a pool to which you can either take or trash. The problem therein is that it would require another overlay onto the XP system, which would be a rather interesting addition to code in. I'm sure how things are looking, producing a mentoring system that takes into account, say, typing '/mentor (player)' that will activate a no-xp gain up to the point of them leaving the group. That's a more direct approach with using flags with if comments than coding in a halt comment that could, if FUBARd, affect people who don't want it to affect them.

If the halt comment is only activated by a similar command (Say "/experience off" or something) AND only lasts X amount of time (until you log off, or say an hour or something) would it really be "FUBARd" anymore than any other feature in the game currently? (Like selling things to a vendor...where you can easily accidentally sell your horse or something if you forget to lock it...and if you sell too much you can't buy it back).

The "XP pool" thing would be interesting, but I agree it would be more complicated. I would be more in favor of just adding in enough warnings/ways to avoid unintentional activation of the feature.

[FoxFire]

Doesn't matter to me really. It's not like it would affect any of us who wouldn't use it.

Although it WOULD impact those who wouldn't use it.

1. Are you trying to catch up to a friend? He can put the brakes on (and you can accelerate your XP via Destiny Points), and within a short time you can be adventuring together.
2. Are you looking for more people to group with at lower levels, only to find most people are sitting at level cap? More people taking things slow will be available to group with you, AND they will be more willing to group with you, since they don't have to worry about gaining excess XP that will cause them to outlevel other content.
3. Are you wondering why you can't find more of the low level craftable items on the AH? More people at lower levels will be crafting lower level items and farming the associated mats.
4. Has end game content and areas, gotten a bit TOO crowded for comfort? More people working slowly at lower level content will help alleviate some of the over crowding at end game.
5. Do you enjoy LoTRO and want to make sure it succeeds and expands for a LONG time by attracting as many paying customers as possible? By appealing to a wide variety of play styles, LoTRO will not only help retain but will likely also attract additional players.
6. Do you HATE seeing this and other never-ending threads on adding this feature? There's one sure-fire way for Turbine to make sure no one ever has to see this particular thread topic again.

And.... several other secondary benefits to the game in general.

So.... yeah, those who DON'T ever use this feature WILL be impacted by its inclusion.