XP Reducer

[Darmokk]

Why not simply allow us to throw away XP points the same way that we can throw away unwanted gear?

That way, if you "accidentally" overpower your character for the things you want to do soon, you just go back.

I think this way of dealing with it is much better than turning off XP gain, because you cannot forget to turn XP gain off, and you might also just not know or realize how much XP you gain on your temporary side-step activity. But you can just undo the "damage" later.

[Beleg]

Why not simply allow us to throw away XP points the same way that we can throw away unwanted gear?

Wow.... after 54 pages, someone actually came out with a new idea!

Interesting, but would it work? Would you allow a player to "throw away" XP even after they reached a new level? In other words, if I was level 15, and wanted to throw away enough XP to get me down to level 12, would you let me? If so, what would you do about skills they had trained, or gear they had equipped, or quests they had done which required that level?

If not, then I don't see how that helps us much. Sure if (every time we play) we remember to discard the XP before we reach the new level it might help some, but lots of people would forget.

It seems like the click-a-button-to-confirm-when-you-want-to-level-up idea would work better.

But anyway, I commend you for thinking outside the box. One of these days, we just might come up with an idea that one of the devs might think is viable.

[FoxFire]

Why not simply allow us to throw away XP points the same way that we can throw away unwanted gear?

That way, if you "accidentally" overpower your character for the things you want to do soon, you just go back.

I think this way of dealing with it is much better than turning off XP gain, because you cannot forget to turn XP gain off, and you might also just not know or realize how much XP you gain on your temporary side-step activity. But you can just undo the "damage" later.

I suppose that's one way to deal with what some feel is excessive XP gain. One idea I'd proposed a while back was have an option for us to gain Destiny Points instead of XP (and Destiny points can later be used to buy accelerated XP gain if one wanted), or perhaps give extra coin in place of XP. Though in your proposal perhaps it could be an option to convert XP into Destiny Points after the fact.

Another proposed idea was to allow an option for XP loss on defeat, instead of item damage. Although quite frankly at this point, I'd take the XP loss AND item damage AND the loss of some random item from your packs AND a port to the opposite end of Middle-earth, just to get some means of XP reduction.

[FoxFire]

P.S. Note I said the loss of a random item from YOUR packs, not mine.



"Hey I how come I keep randomly losing items?? FoxFire!! Are you jumping off of Trestelbridge again?"

[Darmokk]

Wow.... after 54 pages, someone actually came out with a new idea!

Good. I was too lazy to actually read all 54 pages

Interesting, but would it work? Would you allow a player to "throw away" XP even after they reached a new level? In other words, if I was level 15, and wanted to throw away enough XP to get me down to level 12, would you let me? If so, what would you do about skills they had trained, or gear they had equipped, or quests they had done which required that level?

You can only throw away XP points while you do not have gear for higher levels equipped. So you park it in the bags.

You cannot go back across a level boundary if you have acquired skills or did quests that require that level. That is easy enough to follow while running around, I think.

You see, the purpose of this is that I can go for a side stroll with a character that shouldn't be upgraded.

Example:

• I have a captain that is exclusively for fellowship quests with my kinsmen. I am not "allowed" to level that one up, no quests completion on my own etc. But this is my only scholar and I want to sneak it into some ruin or another gathering materials.
• My main "storyline" character is supposed to not be spoiled by making it too powerful for the storyline quests, thereby making the storyline less challenging. Still, I want to use this character for gathering stuff for crafting, or just take a sightseeing stroll across the countryside.

I don't want to go all the way from level 22 back to 14 or something.
All I want is undo an evening of "collateral damage" kills from sightseeing or gathering. I'd have to be careful while crafting, of course.

If not, then I don't see how that helps us much. Sure if (every time we play) we remember to discard the XP before we reach the new level it might help some, but lots of people would forget.

It seems like the click-a-button-to-confirm-when-you-want-to-level-up idea would work better.

But anyway, I commend you for thinking outside the box. One of these days, we just might come up with an idea that one of the devs might think is viable.

The major problems for the devs will probably be ease of implementation, and not to add knobs that add ropes for new users to hang themselves.

I think the "throw away XPs" is pretty easy to implement, basically you need to add the checks I mentioned. Checks are "realonly" code that doesn't do much damage when you screw it up. After the checks pass you just set a single variable. Add some more checks I didn't think of offhand.

Confusing new users is probably a toss between the solutions.

[Beleg]

You see, the purpose of this is that I can go for a side stroll with a character that shouldn't be upgraded.

Example:

• I have a captain that is exclusively for fellowship quests with my kinsmen. I am not "allowed" to level that one up, no quests completion on my own etc. But this is my only scholar and I want to sneak it into some ruin or another gathering materials.
• My main "storyline" character is supposed to not be spoiled by making it too powerful for the storyline quests, thereby making the storyline less challenging. Still, I want to use this character for gathering stuff for crafting, or just take a sightseeing stroll across the countryside.

Oh believe me - we understand the purpose! We've been advocating for it for months.

I think the "throw away XPs" is pretty easy to implement...

Yeah, we've made that argument with many different suggestions to address this issue. But Floon (one of the devs) has responded that, while the basic implementation might be relatively easy, there are many other issues (such as Customer Support) that have to be addressed too. And also that these "simple" ideas wouldn't address many of the issues, but a full Mentoring system would be better. (There are still quite a few who disagree with that.)

Many of us still think that it should be considered. There are lots of players who have expressed a desire to slow-down leveling.

But, although "discarding XP" might be fairly simple to implement, I think (all things considered), the button to level up suggestion would be as easy (or easier) and would work better.

[Darmokk]

Presumably the main issues with customer support would be:

• 1) Helyp!!111 My character doesn't level up anymore. I swear I didn't touch anything!
• 2) Heiijpl!11!! There is this new button I don't understand.
• 3) Hp! I threw away XP points by accident [alternatively, my cat did it]

In the "discard XPs" concept you could remember how many XP were nuked and have an interface to give them back to guard against #3. Presumably there would be a right-click menu on the XP display that allows you to both discard and recover XP so that people won't find one and not the other.

Obviously #2 is pretty hard to deal with, but could be lightened by only displaying that menu from level 12 on or something, so that the user would understand the concept with a high probability.

[Lomeloth]

I've been giving this a little more thought again, now that some of my characters who had been at the level cap are gaining experience and leveling again.

While personally I still prefer a mentoring system option, this idea of 'saving' xp and then clicking a Level Now button seems to lots of fans as well. I'm not opposed to that, though it woudn't address my concerns (the person who outlevels their partner/s can't go back once they've gone ahead). But I would argue there need to be constraints on it, and there are other variables no one has taken into account yet.

First, there really do need to be warnings with big letters and confirmations and the like to ensure the person really means to stop their XP gain. Each session, each character. I don't think anyone objects to those.

I also think it's overkill to save XP perpetually until you press a button and it all comes flooding back. It's counter-intuitive that the proponents of the Level Now button solution would want to unleash a lot of levels of XP on themselves at once - you'd miss the challenge of the intervening areas. I'd rather see a cap such that no matter how much XP you would have earned, you could only get a single level when you clicked, and that the absolute max would be somewhere in a 5-level range or so (from where you 'froze' it). That way you preserve a more natural progression, learn to use new skills in the appropriate level range, don't miss out on the next content, don't run yourself out of non-grinding ways to continue to earn XP, lessen how much data has to be saved, etc. I picked 5 levels because that seems to me to be an optimum grouping range for many quests.

Once you have legendary items, you also earn IXP that appears to be based on the XP you earn (or would have earned, if you are at level cap) from the kill/quest/etc. I don't know if it's a constant percentage, or if all XP also results in IXP, though there are items out there meant to enhance it (e.g., Cook's guild teas).

I have not seen a proposal that deals with this aspect. Do you want that IXP frozen too? If not, I could see some balancing issues from relic farming at lower levels. And there would need to be a way for the 'stored' XP not to give IXP when you click your Level Now button (double-dipping FTW). But if you don't freeze it, you will become more powerful despite stopping your own XP gain as your LIs advance...

If you do freeze IXP while XP is frozen, then one could reasonably argue (I would) that it should be received when you click that same button - after all, it was earned. But that would mean instead of remembering a simple number (XP saved) that somehow the system knows how much of that is eligible for IXP and at what rate. I don't see how it could also remember what weapons you had during the interim if you happened to change some out, so I suppose you'd have to apply it to all currently slotted LIs... potentially a ton of IXP that you could manipulate in a way the system wasn't meant for (not that I am sure exactly how, but someone would find some way...).

My point is, there are impacts to systems other than just your XP bar, and it would be useful to think about ways to address those as well.

Just a comment on the 'turn XP into coin' idea - I really don't like it. Too easy for gold farmers to abuse. XP to DP, though, I find intriguing; however, I think there might have to be some way to balance that for PvMP? Not sure, since I don't go to the 'Moors - and since I don't, I already have plenty of DP sitting around .

[BINKLEY1]

Gack, I hate this thread, and yet, I am drawn in...

While personally I still prefer a mentoring system option, this idea of 'saving' xp and then clicking a Level Now button seems to lots of fans as well.

Of all ideas on this thread, this is the one I would most support. If you want to level, visit your trainer. When you garner enough XP to level, a dialog says "Hey, visit your trainer! Good for you!" This is kind of D&Dish (maybe there's restrictions Turbine is under for implementing these kinds of mechanics), but does seem acceptable from what I can tell of this thread:

• Customer service calls are minimal, most players just need to learn about the "level now" dialog and to visit the trainer to train new levels, which they already know to do to train new skills.
• Slow going players can delay visiting the trainer, letting leveling stack up as they wish. Once at the trainer, they may train only as many garnered levels as they wish.
• I'm no expert on LOTRO's implementation, but this seems realistic to code up. A counter keeps track of how many untrained levels the character has, instead of leveling immediately each time an XP threshhold is reached. The current leveling mechanic happens when training, instead of in the field.

Many of my points are just guesswork; Turbine has yet to accept my employment as a programmer.

[Darmokk]

I've been giving this a little more thought again, now that some of my characters who had been at the level cap are gaining experience and leveling again.

While personally I still prefer a mentoring system option, this idea of 'saving' xp and then clicking a Level Now button seems to lots of fans as well. I'm not opposed to that, though it woudn't address my concerns (the person who outlevels their partner/s can't go back once they've gone ahead). But I would argue there need to be constraints on it, and there are other variables no one has taken into account yet.

First, there really do need to be warnings with big letters and confirmations and the like to ensure the person really means to stop their XP gain. Each session, each character. I don't think anyone objects to those.

I also think it's overkill to save XP perpetually until you press a button and it all comes flooding back. It's counter-intuitive that the proponents of the Level Now button solution would want to unleash a lot of levels of XP on themselves at once - you'd miss the challenge of the intervening areas. I'd rather see a cap such that no matter how much XP you would have earned, you could only get a single level when you clicked, and that the absolute max would be somewhere in a 5-level range or so (from where you 'froze' it). That way you preserve a more natural progression, learn to use new skills in the appropriate level range, don't miss out on the next content, don't run yourself out of non-grinding ways to continue to earn XP, lessen how much data has to be saved, etc. I picked 5 levels because that seems to me to be an optimum grouping range for many quests.

You make excellent points.

In fact I would not like a "all or nothing option" that just gives you a flood of levels.

Control is everything, except that it shouldn't need control UI elements because they gets support clogged up.

Ideally you should be able to decide as late as possible (after you earned XPs, not before) whether you want them, and if you decide you want to use some of the XPs for upgrading you level you should be able to say to where.

I think that both forward storing without automatic leveling and discarding XPs would do that, but locking against XP gain would not follow the principle of most control.

[Celt_Ainvar]

Well the Monitor system I think and has to many Problem is you get a high level Toon let say 60 and you change his level and you better armour then the rest or you have to have armour suited for that toon which waste bank and House space. Plus you have 15 plus more skills then the Low level player. Which is a disavantage to them.

Now if the Monitor system setup where you required to use set level items let say it setup for Monitor level by 5

Let take a level 15 toon and items that can be use by a level 15 toon.

two earings
two armband
two Rings
one amulet
one helm
one armour
one leggings
one boots
one gloves
two weapons. depending on the class
one Pocket item
one book, bow or bag

16 Items please do not forget the Pots at level 15 food at level 15. That almost 20 itmes

Just going by every 10 levels from level 15. 20 items x6 120 of space that could be use for other things. So is the monitor system worth it? I say No.

[DrWookie]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned yet (probably has, considering this is 50+ pages long):

Here is an easy solution:


When you level, a big menu appears on screen where you click "LEVEL UP". This is a little check box that says "Don't ask me this again" and then another button that says "Minimize".

If you don't click level up, you stop gaining XP (you are stuck at the end of that level).

If you click "Don't ask me this again", it will automatically level you up every level (until you turn it back on in the options).

If you click minimize you basically don't level until you bring up the menu again and click "LEVEL UP".



If people don't want to click the button, they can just select "don't ask me again" and will level up like normal. For those who want to decide if they want to stick around at their level to finish some content, or move on, when they level up they can just minimize the screen and wait for awhile to level up.


Seems like that would be fairly easy to implement.

[Tiempko]

Actually, this seems to be a quite workable solution.

I would worry about the box coming up in the middle of a fight. You are in a tense boss-level fellowship fight when, as one of the adds is defeated, you get the XP and a message asking if you want to level. Yes, the box can be minimized, but such a disturbance can still throw off a person's game enough to precipitate a wipe. Even if there is no wipe, it would create unwanted stress.

[Forjo]

Actually, this seems to be a quite workable solution.

I would worry about the box coming up in the middle of a fight. You are in a tense boss-level fellowship fight when, as one of the adds is defeated, you get the XP and a message asking if you want to level. Yes, the box can be minimized, but such a disturbance can still throw off a person's game enough to precipitate a wipe. Even if there is no wipe, it would create unwanted stress.

I think the way legendary items are handled is precisely how character levelling should be handled. An animation, a distinctive sound (both already there) and an icon in the alerts area that indicates that your character has levelled like the one used when a legendary item has levelled.

Clicking this item would bring up the "click to level" box and remind you to visit your trainer -- much like the first tooltip after the first time a character levels.

-Forjo

[DrWookie]

I think the way legendary items are handled is precisely how character levelling should be handled. An animation, a distinctive sound (both already there) and an icon in the alerts area that indicates that your character has levelled like the one used when a legendary item has levelled.

Clicking this item would bring up the "click to level" box and remind you to visit your trainer -- much like the first tooltip after the first time a character levels.

-Forjo

Ya they would have to balance "obviousness" with "Not in the way".

The location of the menu could be customizable...so if you like it in your face so you don't forget you can place it there, but you can also move it away.

Also most people who would never want to "stop" gaining levels would early on click "don't remind me again" and then they would never see it again. Only the people who do think about halting xp progression would have the menu keep popping up.

[Tiempko]

So, it seems that Turbine has even tested this system in the way it handles Legendary Items.

I do not know this - since I have not yet acquired any legendary items. If they have tested it, and not gotten tons of customer service calls because of it, then it would seem that those fears are unfounded.

[Tiempko]

Also most people who would never want to "stop" gaining levels would early on click "don't remind me again" and then they would never see it again. Only the people who do think about halting xp progression would have the menu keep popping up.

What about the person who says, "Don't remind me again" and then changes his mind. How does he get the reminder back?

[Lomeloth]

Well the Monitor system I think and has to many Problem is you get a high level Toon let say 60 and you change his level and you better armour then the rest or you have to have armour suited for that toon which waste bank and House space. Plus you have 15 plus more skills then the Low level player. Which is a disavantage to them.

Now if the Monitor system setup where you required to use set level items let say it setup for Monitor level by 5

Let take a level 15 toon and items that can be use by a level 15 toon.

two earings
two armband
two Rings
one amulet
one helm
one armour
one leggings
one boots
one gloves
two weapons. depending on the class
one Pocket item
one book, bow or bag

16 Items please do not forget the Pots at level 15 food at level 15. That almost 20 itmes

Just going by every 10 levels from level 15. 20 items x6 120 of space that could be use for other things. So is the monitor system worth it? I say No.

In games where I have seen (and used) a Mentor system, they simply greyed out skills that were not available at the level you'd mentored down to, and scaled your armour, weapons, and items down to appropriate levels for the lower level. There was no inventory/item problem.

What about the person who says, "Don't remind me again" and then changes his mind. How does he get the reminder back?

I'd imagine, like other options, you could still see it in the appropriate Option panel (like the Tutorial tooltips work).

[greydmiyu]

55 pages, already past the paste stage of dead horse flogging. In case any Turbine rep. is still reading this monstrosity (HAR!) I just want to say this is not an old problem.

I recently re-joined LotRO for the third time. The first two times I didn't get a character past 30. This time around I got a good Kin and some people that I like to level with. But, they don't play as often as I do. My main is now high-50s and they are 50.

Furthermore I am a huge Angband fan and the idea and ambiance of Moria is something I'd really like to experience at level. But between the dailies and keeping my skirmish soldier up to snuff I am quickly zooming past the Moria content.

So I've already outlevelled my playing buddy and outlevelling the content I really want to slow down and relish. On top of that I've had to skip one-and-a-half zones (2nd half of Angmar, all of Forochel) of content already. Some of which I have to go back and redo at the snoozefest way-under-my-level level for deeds, skills and fast-travel points.

None of that has to do with RP. It has everything to do with wanting to have a challenge when I play those areas of the game. With skirmishes and dailies getting XP for my next level is not a problem. Doing all I want to do with the XP forcing me into higher levels is a problem.

And to add insult to injury now there's bonus XP this weekend. No, please, let me opt out! I don't need or want this breakneck pace!

[Darmokk]

Well, since this is an endless chat thread by now, here is my "XP reducer needed" story for today:

I wanted to see how low-level Wardens and Guardians compare. So I had a level 8 Warden and a level 8 Guardian go west out of Bree and take on a level 16 pig and a level 14 bear.

The Warden was equipped with a self-crafted 7.2 dps spear, the Guardian had a 5.2 dps quest sword. After the Guardian lost the first round I decided the experiment is fun enough to go through the trouble of switching it's vocation to armsman and make a bronze sword (same 7.2 dps as the Warden's crafted spear).

Guess what - I lack tin. Now, that level 8 Guardian was just 23 points away from level 9. So I had to find some *&@^*&$^ tin, but be careful not to kill anything or anybody while doing do. Subsequently I spent much of Saturday morning running away from ridiculous mobs tracking down the rare tin deposits.

Why can't I just drop some XP and/or block leveling up for a while?

[DrWookie]

What about the person who says, "Don't remind me again" and then changes his mind. How does he get the reminder back?

The options menu.

[Lynchpin]

Hey I know it's a cardinal sin to bump a 3 month old thread but I really want this feature.

I just re-activated my account and my little rune-keeper levels so fast I've already cancelled and lost interest because of leveling speed. There is no time to smell the roses anymore. I find myself being frustrated when I pull more than the required amount of mobs for any given quest, simply because I look for ways to handicap my experience gain.

Why can't a simple "turn off xp gain" option be added to the game options screen? WoW recently added the ability to turn off XP gain, I don't see why it can't be done here. In WoW, you walk up to a specific NPC and one of his options will turn off all xp gain. You then have to return to him and pay a small fee to turn XP back on. While this is not as convienent as a simple option menu solution, it still accomplishes the goal.

Has there been no Turbine response on this?

[JMVfromNV]

I know the Turbine folks have been kind enough to reduce the bonus XP from Welcome Back Weekends from 25% to 5%, I still don't feel it addresses the real issue of not being able to control your own character.

Please... I don't want my character to level at such a breakneck speed. All we are asking for is a toggle. Please?

[Forjo]

Just for comparison -- someone asked for a similar feature in STO and the forum rep said they'd take it to a dev and see what they think -- within just a few days of the OP.

This is not to say it'll happen, but it shows what happens when people are at least willing to consider your ideas...

-Forjo

[auximenes]

This is not to say it'll happen, but it shows what happens when people are at least willing to consider your ideas.

Why do you think Turbine is not willing? I think there was a typical semi-rude floon post about the subject, but perhaps it's just not a high enough priority for them to allocate any Dev resources to make it happen? Yes, I realise that it's likely not that much work in the overall scheme of programming. Also, for clarity, I personally would love to have an XP toggle, and I think XP gain is a bit too fast.