Inductions and Pivoting

[therustman]

It is often beneficial to get behind a mob when it begins an induction. Besides avoiding the attack, certain classes gain a benefit for doing so (guardian stagger, burglar positional bonus).

In most cases (ie, orcs) when the mob begins the induction it will not pivot when you attempt to get behind it. Recently, however, I have noticed that this is not consistent: other mobs seem to ignore this rule -- particularly ghosts, though I am sure I have seen other mobs do it as well (lieutenants?, non-humanoid?).

The question is, should it not be consistent? If a mob is in an induction should they be allowed to pivot? I would say no, just for the simple reason that without stealth a player would never be able to get behind the mob unless they were in a fellowship (or pet/soldier).

I'm sure this has been around for awhile. Anyone know if this is working as intended?

[Arrowyx]

Mobs from any SoA content will spin to face you. I know they stopped mobs in Moria from doing that to give people the option to avoid some of the induction based attacks by moving though I'm not sure if this continues on into SoM and into the future. WAI I suppose.

[Yula_the_Mighty]

It is often beneficial to get behind a mob when it begins an induction.

It is always beneficial to get behind a mob. All mobs have block, evade and parry. Their block and parry only work in the frontal arc. Many of them have frontal AOEs. You avoid all damage by being behind them.

A well trained tank will spin the mob so the rear is facing the rest of the group. That way reducing the damage everyone else takes. Increasing the number of hits. Like you said, you are a class with a positional damage modifier. Even better.

As stated the spinning behavior is a live launch feature. All original critters with induction skills will spin to face you. There are a few exception where they went back and took away their spins - IIRC - Bears and their roars were changed.

No doubt it is something they would like to do. Like everything else. Turbine is stretched too thin. I would rather new landscape, instances, skirmishes, quests, gear ... Instead of very little or nothing new because they are spending all their time reworking old tired quests, instances, mobs ...

In most cases for Shadows of Angmar, the induction skills are not very dangerous. Go ahead hit me. By way - thank for wasting 10 seconds on that induction skill instead of hitting my three times with your sword. I almost never interrupt them.

[vitamin-f]

As Tantalus said.

SoA mobs (at launch) were created with old tech that allowed for the mobs to spin any which way.

Tech that Turbine developed later on allowed the monster developers to control the inductions more easily. Basically, IIRC, it goes something like: begin attack -> loop, loop, loop, etc. -> end attack. The dev can change how many loops to control length of induction. It will also allow rooting of the mob in one direction.

Raskolnikov explained that the problem with the old tech is that it's difficult to change the art. You'd have to have an artist go and break the animation into pieces so that it matches the ability of the new tech instead of being one single animation. They did this with bears recently, but there's so many mobs that it wouldn't be really feasible to change them all with the other work that needs to be done with limited manpower.

Also, keep in mind that some inductions have a minimum range--so if you run up to a mob, sometimes the attack won't go off since you were outside of its attack range.

[therustman]

I was questing in Moria when I noticed this so I was pretty sure that the problem was not limited to mobs level 50 and below (but thanks for the response) so I paid a more attention when I was out questing in Moria.

I was out in the Flaming Deeps doing the Trace Metals repeatable quest, killing Ghash Hai. The first few did not pivot and then I fought one that did. What?? Then I realized that the one that pivoted was an Archer. Sure enough. I fought another and he also pivoted. So the Warriors do not pivot, but the Archers do. Interesting.

I did not do a thorough investigation of every mob, but in my casual questing I did find a few that mobs in Moria that pivot during an induction. Many do not, but several do. So the problem is definitely not limited to Shadows of Angmar content.

Mobs found to pivot during an induction (these are all in Moria):

Ghosts in Ghost-Forge instance at Dolven View
Ghash-Hai Archers in Flaming Deeps
Morroval in Durin's Way (need to double check this one)

Mobs which do not pivot (all in Moria):

Dragonets
Goblins
Ghash-Hai Warriors
Orcs and bosses in Training Hall and Mithril Flakes instances

I'm going to file a bug report on all mobs > level 50 that pivot during an induction.

[vitamin-f]

I was questing in Moria when I noticed this so I was pretty sure that the problem was not limited to mobs level 50 and below (but thanks for the response) so I paid a more attention when I was out questing in Moria.

I was out in the Flaming Deeps doing the Trace Metals repeatable quest, killing Ghash Hai. The first few did not pivot and then I fought one that did. What?? Then I realized that the one that pivoted was an Archer. Sure enough. I fought another and he also pivoted. So the Warriors do not pivot, but the Archers do. Interesting.

I did not do a thorough investigation of every mob, but in my casual questing I did find a few that mobs in Moria that pivot during an induction. Many do not, but several do. So the problem is definitely not limited to Shadows of Angmar content.

Mobs found to pivot during an induction (these are all in Moria):

Ghosts in Ghost-Forge instance at Dolven View
Ghash-Hai Archers in Flaming Deeps
Morroval in Durin's Way (need to double check this one)

Mobs which do not pivot (all in Moria):

Dragonets
Goblins
Ghash-Hai Warriors
Orcs and bosses in Training Hall and Mithril Flakes instances

I'm going to file a bug report on all mobs > level 50 that pivot during an induction.

Keep in mind that it's the skill and animation type, not just the skin the mob wears. Some mobs like the ghosts haven't changed animations since SoA. Wights are a prime example of this, especially when they vomit (and there are wights in Mirkwood, even).

Why would an archer not pivot, though? If it didn't, that wouldn't make much sense. A bear pirouetting on its tip-toes while gearing up for a roar, or a wight streaming vomit while spinning around is another matter.

[therustman]

Good point the archer. Yes it makes sense to see an archer pivoting ... BUT ... for the sake of playing devil's advocate, what about Dragonets? They are also a ranged mob. Why don't they pivot?

Good point about the artwork as well, BUT .... Goblins existed before Moria, yet they do not pivot. Why not? If they can make it so that Goblins in Moria do not pivot then why do the Morroval in Moria pivot?

And just to add confusion, we have warg riders. They are melee and ranged. They must be new artwork yet the one I saw today pivoted.

My point in asking the questions is not to launch a full-scale investigation into why some mobs pivot and others don't. Rather, though the explanations offered make sense I've tried to show that artwork and ranged mob considerations are not enough to explain all of the inconsistencies and for this reason it would be helpful to have a developer investigate. So I'll continue with my bug reporting as I find mobs

[vitamin-f]

Good point the archer. Yes it makes sense to see an archer pivoting ... BUT ... for the sake of playing devil's advocate, what about Dragonets? They are also a ranged mob. Why don't they pivot?

Good point about the artwork as well, BUT .... Goblins existed before Moria, yet they do not pivot. Why not? If they can make it so that Goblins in Moria do not pivot then why do the Morroval in Moria pivot?

And just to add confusion, we have warg riders. They are melee and ranged. They must be new artwork yet the one I saw today pivoted.

My guess is that they added new abilities that have new (or modified) animations to existing mobs (e.g. goblins) like that annoying stun a lot of the gobilns have now--that is a completely new ability, and they do not pivot. I do not ever recall any goblin before holding up their mace and readying for a shield bash. They still pivot with a lot of their older abilities.

As for the dragonets, it was done probably to give you a chance to interrupt/get away from the attack.

From what I understand, it's largely up to the designer and not all designers have the same ideas. The Moria+ mobs are a combination of the old and new tech.

[Raskolnikov]

In order to prevent a monster from pivoting (we actually call it "locked-facing"), the skill the monster is using must meet the following requirements:

• The skill uses an induction (ie; has a Start, Loop, and End animation).
• The skill is a self-anchored Area of Effect skill. (ie; breath / swipe attacks)

So, with the Archer example: If the skill is single target, then the monster is able to pivot while he performs the induction animations.

[Serin36]

In order to prevent a monster from pivoting (we actually call it "locked-facing"), the skill the monster is using must meet the following requirements:

• The skill uses an induction (ie; has a Start, Loop, and End animation).
• The skill is a self-anchored Area of Effect skill. (ie; breath / swipe attacks)

So, with the Archer example: If the skill is single target, then the monster is able to pivot while he performs the induction animations.

Also aren't 360 degree AOE's generally exempt from this anyhow?

My suggestion is to apply the fixed-facing induction to GIANTS. They're the perfect candidates: large, lumbering, slow...and their inductions are directional AOE melee attacks.

[Raskolnikov]

My suggestion is to apply the fixed-facing induction to GIANTS.

Giants are definitely on my list to look into.

[gildhur]

Giants are definitely on my list to look into.

Too busy making new behaviors for the B2 Dunland raid?

[Hagia]

Not to hijack this thread but looks as good as any to ask. Any head way on fixing the camera exploit for both pve and pvp? I am mainly concerned with PvP since so many find it very beneficial to spin while stunned by a burg.

[Raskolnikov]

Looking into the Giants none of their skills meet the requirements. They are either using single target induction attacks, PBAOE attacks (ie; sphere, not cone), or swipe attacks which don't have inductions.

Edit: In regard to the single target induction & PBAOE induction attacks, it's possible to avoid them if you back out of range of the attack.

[Digero]

Is it possible to change the single target inductions into cone aoe attacks with max targets = 1?

[Serin36]

Then...can't we just change them to cone? Or change them to multi-target?

At the very least...lengthen the inductions.

The root of the problem is that it's far too easy for low level giants to stun you. Stun effects should also be based on level, IMO.

[jmh1981]

Is it possible to change the single target inductions into cone aoe attacks with max targets = 1?

Why? Doesn't it make sense that if someone is swinging or throwing something at a single person they would turn to face that person before they did it?

[Domineaux]

Why? Doesn't it make sense that if someone is swinging or throwing something at a single person they would turn to face that person before they did it?

Yes but does it still make sense if they spin in a circle as they throw it just because you step around/through them?

[BIZL]

Not to hijack this thread but looks as good as any to ask. Any head way on fixing the camera exploit for both pve and pvp? I am mainly concerned with PvP since so many find it very beneficial to spin while stunned by a burg.

I honestly dont think this makes much of a difference. It isnt hard to stay behind even those who spin, if people are doing it to your burg you can always to it to wargs. (who also use positional)

Isnt it WAI? Not likely, but I wouldnt consider it game breaking either.

-Morrdan/Weaver/Pre