Totally not cool.

[Talfryn]

What mistifies me about this whole reward wall **** is that, surely, someone at Turbine knew of this comany's reputation.

Even those with only a passing familiarity with the internet know that SuperRewards are a dodgy bunch of con-folk. And assuming someone knew, didn't they think that teaming with fraudsters and malware distributors could harm their brand enough to drive away security conscious customers?

The mind boggles. For all of Turbine's business nous and game making expertise, they regularly make monumentally stupid mistakes.

Wow. I've been toying with the idea of playing DDO. No way now. It makes me feel wary of Turbine altogether. The mind boggles.

[Kraggy]

You think SuperRewards isn't famous for virus's, trojans and other malware?

I'm well aware what they're famous for .. sadly the idiot in Turbine who decided to do business with them didn't.

[mjk47]

Big time public relations disaster. I very much doubt that any attempt to reinstate the "Offer Wall", whatever words and assurances they may throw around it, will be be deemed acceptable by the DDO (and wider Turbine) community.

It never ceases to amaze me how easily companies stumble into these situations which undermine the trust that their customers place in them.

There is only one certain way to start to recover from this and that is to say "We're sorry, we screwed up, and we have ditched this idea for good".

[ericlewis]

All I got to say is DDO got forum reputation, now we have it.

DDO has the offer wall, get my drift.

They need to get a clue, I too have a ddo account and was wondering why my email junk box had 5 times the amount of crud in it and my malware program had identified some risks.

Now I know where it came from.

What happened to the privacy policy?

[Eleazar]

I mean this is an intelligent, IT company..right?

There has to be alot of ppl in Turbine today going...I told you so

How could they even think this was going to end well.

[Jeffor]

Well I will certainly never, ever give DDO a try now. I thought that game had turned a corner since they went f2p and was doing better. Hopefully it was just an honest mistake.

[jmcmike]

It's disgusting frankly. I cannot believe that they would allow this to happen. To pass on a customer's email and account name without their expressed permission is simply unacceptable and may be indicative of some serious problems at Turbine. This is simply too big of a thing to just say "oops we goofed" and "we'll look into it".

We need a blue name addressing this here. We need to be told that they are not currently nor will they ever do the same to their LOTRO customers.

[IamAkkim]

Okay, I have to throw in my $.02... and yes, I could easily be wrong.

I'm willing to give Turbine the benefit of the doubt - they probably expected this kind of blow-back. The good news is they have posted an announcement mentioning that they have some form of established criteria and testing ::
-- http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243097
-- This even came with an apology, an acceptance of fault/mistake, a FIX and a promise to improve moving forward.

Now, if what people are posting is accurate (that the username and EMail address are sent out publicly simply on opening the wall) - I think that's something that needs to be changed. There should be "no harm" in simply seeing what offers are there.

Now if you CLICK an offer.. I think that's the point at which your Username/Email should be sent along (allow me to explain)
-- When you click on the link, you are authenticated against the DDO Forum login. Once you hit the Offer Site, without that information, you would have to enter a DDO Forum username/Email address pairing. This information could be entered without a password to validate the user is the one doing it and could be used as a means to spam/grief other people you know in the DDO forums (ha, look at all the offer spam I've submitted you to!).

So.. there's my concerns with regards to "release of private information". I THINK I understand why it is done the way it is done.

My wife and I also have DDO accounts linked to our LOTRO accounts. We're freeloaders too! I say this simply because neither of us has seen an increase in spam, we have not seen any malware warnings or alerts - but neither of us as bothered with the Offer Wall either.

Now.. with regards to the why they did it? I think something like this probably should have been done with some announcements and feedback regarding the idea before it went live - especially since it seems to have polarized the Turbine Userbase ACROSS FRANCHISES.

Regardless, what it does seem to do (as far as I can figure out) ::
-- It gives "Free-to-Play" folks a way of expanding their access by INTENTIONALLY and WILLINGLY going through various offers to acquire Turbine Points
-- It gives Turbine revenue in the form of Super Rewards paying them for the points that end up in the end-user's accounts (I'm not sure of what the rate is or anything, obviously).

If this results in higher revenue for DDO by allowing them to make money off of people who still want to play for free - and if this is done without releasing any information at all in any way on behalf of those players who have absolutely no interest in that.. I'm not sure I see a problem with it - and my only concerns become lesser if they are really going to police / monitor what offers are allowed.

So... while my initial knee-jerk was pretty harsh.. I'm willing to hold off on running around like Chicken Little given that post they made. Am I Thrilled? Not really. Is this something I could see going south in the future? Possibly. In the end, revenue for Turbine ultimately is good for us - it keeps them running which keeps our hobby going... so I guess I can only complain so much.

Thoughts?

--Akkim

[Mark_J]

Well it's apparent from this thread that Turbine is not abandoning the relationship with SuperRewards any time soon. It also seems clear they were well aware of SuperReward's poor reputation but thought that the risk to their player base was worth the rewards. Turbine is claiming they will monitor all of the offers being presented by SuperRewards, hopefully not by the same people that were responsible for sending all your private account information to SuperRewards just for viewing the Wall of Offers page and without clicking on a single thing.

Having prison inmates clean the highways is one thing, there is an obviously good reason why they don't let them clean the inside of banks or drug stores. It would be ridiculous for Turbine to bet their player's security that their little policy will somehow put SuperRewards on the straight and narrow path of honesty.

Turbine's willingness to knowingly expose their players to potential security risks by validating a known malware distributor and how they handled the aftermath of a negative SlashDot is enough for me to take Turbine sites off my Trusted list as well as initiating a few other precautions.

[Jilla]

I never heard of "super rewards" before all this. Can someone explain what it is and how it's associated with malware, etc.

On the surface, this looks like a bad idea to me. I don't like that your e-mail and account information is passed on to some third party just by looking at something (do they get this info if you just look at a Turbine website? Would you be at risk filing a bug report for example? Or do you just have to access some third website/Offerwall that can be avoided?)

[ArcticAurora]

In the end, revenue for Turbine ultimately is good for us - it keeps them running which keeps our hobby going... so I guess I can only complain so much.

Thoughts?

--Akkim

End justifies the means? You can make lots of cash by robbing banks.

I had thought of trying DDO, but there's no way that's happening now. I seriously am expecting a full blown and published appology. I work with people involved in privacy legislation and enforcement, and from this debacle's appearance, i doubt they would smile kindly on Turbine for this stunt.

Powered by our fans indeed.... like logs to a woodchipped for the fires of industry.

Jilla, see this link. Real eye opener. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=242978

[shezoe]

.

[KainXI]

I find it kind of funny that when I clicked the link Turbine gave me the "You are about to leave our site!" warning.

Yeah, I could have gone somewhere dangerous like SuperRewards.

[Ceejay90]

The last two posts sound a little more like the voice of reason creepng in, BUT you cannot get away from the fact Turbine have done a deal with a very dubious site. I site a LOT of people know is dubious at the best! (Criminal at worse. I believe here in the UK releasing such info actually does breach the Data Protection Act)

In my business the staff who carried out any "Due Dilligence" would probably have gone already.....

MAJOR PR disaster for Turbine.

(edit) OK more posts I was referring to Mark J and Iam Akkin

[IamAkkim]

End justifies the means? You can make lots of cash by robbing banks.

If they could rob a bank and get away with it to further develop/operate the game for years, I'd probably be okay with that too!!!! =) Heck, Wall Street does the equivalent of that all the time, I don't think it's stopped us from supporting a lot of those companies!!! =)

Just kidding. I understand the rage and frustration. Honestly, I do. There is a level of disappointment I have with regards to the whole thing.

At the same point, it has not impacted me (directly) and it will not impact me (directly) as I have no intention of going to the OfferWall.

I don't expect many people to agree with me. I don't really *need* people to agree with me. It's simply my viewpoint, my opinion and my contribution to the conversation. Doesn't make me right or wrong.. nor should it make others right or wrong.

--Akkim

[Kathindi]

I have this dream that LOTRO is Turbine's "flagship" operation, and knowing the comparative sophistication of the playerbase and the worth of the literature they're trying to interpret, Turbine would never bring that garbage here.

'Tis but a dream, I fear.

[Mark_J]

I never heard of "super rewards" before all this. Can someone explain what it is and how it's associated with malware, etc.

On the surface, this looks like a bad idea to me. I don't like that your e-mail and account information is passed on to some third party just by looking at something (do they get this info if you just look at a Turbine website? Would you be at risk filing a bug report for example? Or do you just have to access some third website/Offerwall that can be avoided?)

What happened was that just by viewing the Offers page in your browser all your DDO Account information was sent to SuperRewards, this was a huge mistake and almost assuredly not intentional. I'm sure Turbine will fix that.

The underlying problem is that Turbine is basically selling your contact information to a vendor that is a known Spammer and distributor of MalWare. The information that SuperRewards can get their hands on from a simple Tracking Cookie you would pick up just by visiting one of their sites is alarming.

Turbine claims they have a criteria for what SuperRewards will be able to offer and that they will enforce that criteria, but SuperRewards has already demonstrated that if they obtain your contact information form Turbine they will use it. The DDO forums have multiple mega-long threads about people receiving huge increases of SPAM and mail that contains links to malicious sites since they visited the Offers page and SuperRewards got their contact information..

[beg1und]

Another player here who is appalled and stunned that Turbine would do this. I rarely play DDO any more, but most likely will not again after this, and if it comes to LotRO I am Ah Dee Ohhhz, man. This is such a low class back alley thing for them to do that I am still shaking my head. What's gotten into you guys, Turbine?

[musicman2000]

I sincerely hope Turbine learns from this blunder -- it was an awful mistake but I sincerely hope it's not a sign of a trend - and I honestly doubt it.

Frankly I'm in LOTRO for Middle Earth not Turbine -- if they continue to pull stunts like this I"d have no issue with Tolkien Enterprises pulling the plug on their license and potentially offering it to another gaming company -- I have enjoyed Turbine's vision immensely but they need to know that they are treading water in a very very deep end of the pool of trust (or lack there of)

Please learn from this Turbine!

[ArcticAurora]

At the same point, it has not impacted me (directly) and it will not impact me (directly) as I have no intention of going to the OfferWall.

I don't expect many people to agree with me. I don't really *need* people to agree with me. It's simply my viewpoint, my opinion and my contribution to the conversation. Doesn't make me right or wrong.. nor should it make others right or wrong.

--Akkim

And I get that, but you're no doubt making an informed choice based off what you already know of this situation. What Turbine is 'counting on' if I may take the liberty of assessing guilt (because banking on sheer incompetance seems insulting, so better to have an evil genius than a crazy madman) is that most people don't inform themselves or make themselves of the resources available. They'll stumble across the wall (when it's was/is up), click away, and thing they're helping Turbines "friends" (their wording, which implies a stronger relationship and bond of trust than "partners" or "sponsors" or other terms they might have used) while gaining something for it. They have no clue as to the potential damage they are opening themselves up to. These marketing companies serious don't care about privacy legislation or users concerns. They worship the almight buck, and would sell you into slavery for a klondike bar. They prey on naivety. This I hold to be fundamentally wrong.

I have no intention of visiting it either, but that doesn't mean we ought just turn a blind eye and pretend it's not our problem. It's the same parent company. They're experimenting with a business model, and in rough economic times, and as you say - money is in short supply, so I feel there is right to be concerned that they may spread this models design to other games.

[IamAkkim]

I have no intention of visiting it either, but that doesn't mean we ought just turn a blind eye and pretend it's not our problem. It's the same parent company. They're experimenting with a business model, and in rough economic times, and as you say - money is in short supply, so I feel there is right to be concerned that they may spread this models design to other games.

I completely agree with you - make no mistakes there. I do imagine that it's very possible for something like this to come over to LOTRO. Sure, why not.

That said - it still boils down to a choice for the player.
- You can purchase DDO points, a DDO subscription and never have any need to bother with the OfferWall.
- You can play the F2P style and never need to use the OfferWall to get points either.
- Or if you don't want to invest a penny, invest your Email Address and go through whatever loops the offers make you do.

As long as I have the OPTION to play without having to deal with the offers - I will be "okay" with it. Am I thrilled? No.

Mark_J

Please be a bit more careful with your statements - you said that "What happened was that just by viewing the Offers page in your browser all your DDO Account information was sent to SuperRewards"

I do not believe this to be true. From what I have read the only information passed along was the Account Name you were logged into the Forums with and the Email Address associated with that account.

While that is certainly more information being sent along simply for looking at the OfferWall than should have been sent - it's also a far cry from "ALL" of a person's information.

By keeping our statements accurate, we keep this topic useful.

--Akkim

[Maxal]

Well if they are allowing folks to play for free, how do you think they are getting cash to pay for the development team?

I mean I understand how and why they do this. I would not like it if I started getting random mails from even more companies. I would opt out for sure and more companies would end up going to the spam folder.

If I could not opt out, then I might have an issue. Anyway that is D&D and not LOTRO. So I am not going to stess about it.

[gildhur]

So let me get this right... Turbine executives decide to contract with a "OMG FREE STUFF NOW IF YOU JUST CLICK THIS LINK (and sell us your soul for permanent spam the rest of your life)!!!" company in order to generate some more revenue for a game that is FREE to play, you have to actually GO to this third-party site yourself and ACCEPT the offers there for anything to be transmitted, and this is somehow a horrible travesty worthy of an international war-crimes tribunal?

Yes, it's a shady site. That's why any sensible person would never go to it. Yes, it's a questionable deal for Turbine to make given the nature of the site, but it is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL for players. They've already shut it down while they investigate, so it's not like they have no conscience and don't care about their players.

And why would this ever been used for LotRO? LotRO is a subscription based game. It's not free. It doesn't need this kind of third-party income and offer scheme. So kindly remove your frilly undergarments from your intestines, guys.

[LoyalServant]

So let me get this right... Turbine executives decide to contract with a "OMG FREE STUFF NOW IF YOU JUST CLICK THIS LINK (and sell us your soul for permanent spam the rest of your life)!!!" company in order to generate some more revenue for a game that is FREE to play, you have to actually GO to this third-party site yourself and ACCEPT the offers there for anything to be transmitted, and this is somehow a horrible travesty worthy of an international war-crimes tribunal?

Yes, it's a shady site. That's why any sensible person would never go to it. Yes, it's a questionable deal for Turbine to make given the nature of the site, but it is COMPLETELY OPTIONAL for players. They've already shut it down while they investigate, so it's not like they have no conscience and don't care about their players.

And why would this ever been used for LotRO? LotRO is a subscription based game. It's not free. It doesn't need this kind of third-party income and offer scheme. So kindly remove your frilly undergarments from your intestines, guys.

That's not really the point.
You are forced to go to this site via their launcher or in-game browser apparently.
You have no choice other than not to play, and while that is your choice there are a lot of people out there
that don't know what it's all about and think nothing of it until their inbox is full of spam and they fall victim
to the TONS of drive-by attacks that are on that site.

Turbine just went down a notch... if they can't get people to pay to play, shut it down.
Not profitable? Shut it down.
There is no reason to HELP them spread malware to unsuspecting users.
Not to mention sending them the users' account details!
This is just unbelievable.

[Thuarval]

Was there any prior announcement about the ScamWall before it went live? A concern I have is that if they implement this **** here, we may get no notice before logging in one day and finding all these AMAZING FREE OFFERS.

I had intended to play DDO, but have been busy and havent had tim e to DL it yet. Well, I wont be doing so now. And if there is even a HINT of this **** on LotRO, I will immediately cancel all 3 subscriptions I currently have. No questions asked.

I understand that LotRO isnt a point based system atm, but DDO wasnt either for a long time. I also understand that LotRO isnt a F2P game, but DDO wasnt either for a long time. I also understand that what DDO gets, LotRO often eventually gets.