Black Arrow Revamp

[Fladrif]

oh and the fire dot does nothing but slow pvp - That is all it does... slo0o0o0owing down an already sloow moors

[Tinluen]

Unless your arguing that even right now black arrows defenses are OP then that is what I was going for : less survivability and more damage but still more survivability then a poorly played hunter( most hunters dont cc enough if they did they would have greater survivability) and less dps then one.

Most hunter CC misses, or is potted, or the induction is too long to matter when a mob is in close. Sorry but my blackarrow if traited right has gone toe to toe melee, yes I used my uruk, with a burg and won. BA's have much better armor, mits and morale than raid ready hunters at this point.

Tydalmir R8 hunter Elendilmir

[deathman22]

Most hunter CC misses, or is potted, or the induction is too long to matter when a mob is in close. Sorry but my blackarrow if traited right has gone toe to toe melee, yes I used my uruk, with a burg and won. BA's have much better armor, mits and morale than raid ready hunters at this point.

Tydalmir R8 hunter Elendilmir

You beat a burg 1v1? congratulations, all that proves is that burg is horrible seeing as a burg with right legacies can prevent a ba from ever getting an induction off and there no way a competant burg will die to a ba only using melee skills

Regarding having better mitigations then hunters , seriously lol? I have showed why that is irrelevant about 3 times in this thread. Please learn comprehension thanks.

[babaju2]

I just see a wall of text asking for a class' role to be changed. I didn't read it (like one of the above posters). Ba's are a dot class. Deal with it.

[deathman22]

I just see a wall of text asking for a class' role to be changed. I didn't read it (like one of the above posters). Ba's are a dot class. Deal with it.

And like I posted above I do not explain myself to those I do not respect. If you don't know why your not respected here are a few simple criteria you should go by, I will use your post as an example.

I didn't read it

Well to begin with this is where you lost all credibility. Next time I suggest reading the posts in a thread before posting your own reply.

Ba's are a dot class. Deal with it.

In this instance you create a counter argument to my claim which would be nice of you if you backed it up with support such as why you think the black arrow should be a dot class and prove to me it is currently a useful class.

By such a lame appeal it would appear as though you were just trolling. If your not sure what that term means please check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 .

I look forward to well thought out and supported agreements or disagreements but what you have provided is neither. Please learn from this.

[Orlandu]

oh and the fire dot does nothing but slow pvp - That is all it does... slo0o0o0owing down an already sloow moors

How can anyone ignore this! Nothing is more true then the above statement.

[Tinluen]

You beat a burg 1v1? congratulations, all that proves is that burg is horrible seeing as a burg with right legacies can prevent a ba from ever getting an induction off and there no way a competant burg will die to a ba only using melee skills

Regarding having better mitigations then hunters , seriously lol? I have showed why that is irrelevant about 3 times in this thread. Please learn comprehension thanks.

Time for school again it seems. My BA can get up to 33% mits on Beri, and West, with Dwarf at 29%. That is completely shrugging off the hit. With that I also have a chance to take a partial hit at the parry 61%, evade 60% and block (hunters don't have this) 58%. So basically I am having the target miss completly every third shot and have a good chance of cutting down the damage every other shot. Now that is the ideal, the RNG is what it is, but I was giving the burg fits because all he saw was yellow words instead of numbers going over my head. My hunter dreams of being able to do this with wargs and reavers, but alas that will not happen. Even the "light armor" classes, spiders and wargs, have just as good if not better numbers than my hunter. My hunter is at 130 rad and raid ready too, so I put quite some time getting him the best of what I can to go to the moors.

So you want to churn out your numbers again and show me how that makes no difference. My armor is at 4621, add another 1k for the delving pot and my mits will go up even higher. Morale is 6.8k, straight up block is 5.9%, evade is 6.9%, and my parry is 7.7%. Add in my evade and yes I can solo a burg if they stick around and try and take me down. The burg was no slouch and got a tell from him later freep side asking how I did it.

Tell me how bad a BA has it right now. Sure the hunter has a chance to hit harder, but he will spike damage much more. Think of a roller coaster ride while a BA has a much more consistant, yes lower, DPS string. Last thing to add is NO FOCUS NEEDED... that is huge when standing still out there is death. Hunters lose focus when moving, that means no big hitters. You want to get back focus, sure but then you have long induction shots to try and build it back up which can be interrupted. So a hunter is in a catch 22. He needs the big shots to deal with the high morale out there, but can't stand still to take the hits, medium armor isn't what it used to be. So to move means to lose your big shots. Not so on the BA... BA>hunter any day.

Tydalmir

[Odin_of_Freyr]

all i see is an angry old blackarrow who wants to be as EZ-mode as wargs and spiders are now. If only you knew what you were talking about when attempting to compare hunters and BA's.... like I said originally... this post was going to go no where. It got there fast.

[deathman22]

First paragraph

All that is done here is a comparison of hunter and ba which is irrelevant because I am not arguing BA needs a boost because hunters are stronger but that BA dps needs to change from doT to burst damage.

Second paragraph

All of this is already accounted for ( seeing as I am not asking for a boost to the BA) and does not help against freep tactical.

Add in my evade and yes I can solo a burg if they stick around and try and take me down. The burg was no slouch and got a tell from him later freep side asking how I did it.

The burg was a slouch. cj + location is everything + aim and surprise strike that takes you down 1.5k, it also opens crit chain so after he cycles through that thats another 1k you then com out of cj. Burg pops TNG and dust in the eyes continues with various melee attacks if you try to hinder, the burg than addles on a 5sec cd with 75% induction multiplier you cannot get any ranged skills off you spam your few melee skills. The burg then cjs you again it has at least 2 more of these. If your not dead yet you called in friends. but again I DO NOT CARE ABOUT 1V1.

third paragraph..

Here all you show is that BA is greater than hunter in 1v1s ( which is obvious and does not matter) or in small groups which is why I said BA is overpowered in small group pvp in my first paragraph. None of what you said applies to raid v raid. In a raid situation where hunters have captain buffs as well as minstrels and loremasters they have the ability to get induction off because of the heals buffs and cc not to mention resolute aim.(Seeing as your a hunter I am assuming you have a bad bow when you claim hunters need focus to do big hits? ever use improved swift bow?) While BAs have to rely on a dot in a raid situation easily cured by a loremaster. And FFS how many time am I going to have to say I am not boosting BA damage just changing it from Dot to burst damage.

[deathman22]

Pointless reply

Why even waste time with a reply like this? Image and everything makes me feel special. But honestly if you don't have constructive criticism your not welcome here.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

your not welcome here.

Actually, I am. Just because you think the BA needs to be more powerful than it already is, and I disagree, doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Your petition to increase BA damage is a waste of time in my opinion. You really think the devs are going to increase creep DPS in the current state of the Moors? Really? Come on....

[deathman22]

Actually, I am. Just because you think the BA needs to be more powerful than it already is, and I disagree, doesn't mean you're right and I'm wrong. Your petition to increase BA damage is a waste of time in my opinion. You really think the devs are going to increase creep DPS in the current state of the Moors? Really? Come on....

You did not read it I am NOT increasing BA damage. I am not making it more powerful. I am not increasing creep DPS. I am changing BA from a class dependant on Damage over time to one dependent on burst damage. So yes your are wrong.

If you missed it start reading here :

Currently the problem I see with having BA damage rely on a dot (flaming arrow) is that in situations where the freeps lack healing or a loremaster they can find themselves stacked with an overwhelming amount of dots and forced to run and or burn to death. On the other hand in raid vs. raid situations where freeps have multiple lms captains and healers dots are not nearly as useful as freeps superior burst dps. This is why I suggest that flame dot be severely nerfed and black arrow based damage and crit/dev multipliers boosted.

[Tinluen]

All that is done here is a comparison of hunter and ba which is irrelevant because I am not arguing BA needs a boost because hunters are stronger but that BA dps needs to change from doT to burst damage.

Argument was understood, but you cannot give them bigger dps up front without taking away some of their survivability. It would be like giving a champ the same mits and armor as a guard. Evade will make them very tough to beat with the increased damage you want to give them along with what they already have. This is a relationship you refuse to understand.

The burg was a slouch. cj + location is everything + aim and surprise strike that takes you down 1.5k, it also opens crit chain so after he cycles through that thats another 1k you then com out of cj. Burg pops TNG and dust in the eyes continues with various melee attacks if you try to hinder, the burg than addles on a 5sec cd with 75% induction multiplier you cannot get any ranged skills off you spam your few melee skills. The burg then cjs you again it has at least 2 more of these. If your not dead yet you called in friends. but again I DO NOT CARE ABOUT 1V1.

Never played burg, maybe I caught him off guard, who knows? The point was I lasted much longer than a hunter would have against any warg... before you say hunters and BAs again, don't. You need to be able to look at something that is comparable before dismissing something as irrelevant. Being able to take damage equates to being able to deliver damage in return. You cannot boost one without taking the other into consideration. If you do not, you will really cause an imbalance in the toon. Like it or not, 1v1 and small groups happen all the time, you already admit that BAs are overpowered in this area, you are advocating to push this inequality even further by the change you want to make.

Here all you show is that BA is greater than hunter in 1v1s ( which is obvious and does not matter) or in small groups which is why I said BA is overpowered in small group pvp in my first paragraph. None of what you said applies to raid v raid. In a raid situation where hunters have captain buffs as well as minstrels and loremasters they have the ability to get induction off because of the heals buffs and cc not to mention resolute aim.(Seeing as your a hunter I am assuming you have a bad bow when you claim hunters need focus to do big hits? ever use improved swift bow?) While BAs have to rely on a dot in a raid situation easily cured by a loremaster. And FFS how many time am I going to have to say I am not boosting BA damage just changing it from Dot to burst damage.

LOL you don't have a hunter, or you are missing great tactic at playing your BA. Good BA's will watch for the long induction of Swift bow and will No you don't it. That leaves quick shot and your barbed arrow to build up. I even set my pen shot to two focus instead of three, along with my ROA and still have a hard time getting these back up. Forget Merciful Shot unless I get a lucky ROT or a Bard's arrow that I can get some distance. Remember the more I move the more I lose. Hunters are deadly if you sit there and let them pew pew, so make them move, wargs, reavers spiders will do that if they are smart.

My bow is a 2nd age damage bow, look me up on the lorebook if you are really interested, so I am not bringing a pea shooter to a gun fight. What you want is to front load the damage, I get it, but by doing that you will bork up the class by giving it an exponetial boost because you will still have the abiltiy to take more damage. Again more time alive = more time to kill your opponent.

If you are looking to trade off single ability vs raid ablility, then lower the fire dot. Increase the damage, shorten the cooldown and change the damage to shadow of death blossom. By doing this you give a BA a good AOE, which will not effect a 1v1 at all, but may cause a few problems in small groups. By doing this you will give a BA a bigger punch in the raid while limiting the cross over chaos to 1v1/small groups. This I could back. An across the board increase however I cannot agree too. I also think BA's stances could be used to do this as well. Hard hitter should lose the distance nerf, but drop the BA 1k in morale. This may be another way to give you what you want. You must consider the entire toon before you demand a change like that.

Tydalmir R8 hunter Elendilmir

[Aurthur]

Y'know rancor, maybe you should read the ENTIRE thread...or atleast the first post...He was asking for the lowering of fire dot for increased damage of other skills.

[deathman22]

If you are looking to trade off single ability vs raid ablility, then lower the fire dot. Increase the damage, shorten the cooldown and change the damage to shadow of death blossom. By doing this you give a BA a good AOE, which will not effect a 1v1 at all, but may cause a few problems in small groups. By doing this you will give a BA a bigger punch in the raid while limiting the cross over chaos to 1v1/small groups. This I could back. An across the board increase however I cannot agree too. I also think BA's stances could be used to do this as well. Hard hitter should lose the distance nerf, but drop the BA 1k in morale. This may be another way to give you what you want. You must consider the entire toon before you demand a change like that.

Tydalmir R8 hunter Elendilmir

The reason BA are OP in small group PvP is because the ability to spam and stack a huge fire dot on multiple targets while if there is a lm it is too busy with other skills to keep wound removal spammed it has nothing to do with mitigations. Without that fire dot though BA would be very weak in small group pvp. In raid v raid the fire dot is useless because there are multiple lms so wound removal is more accessible. By completely nerfing the fire dot which takes away from BA damage but then compensating with burst Damage( the changes I provided would still have far less damage than a hunter, for good reason such as higher BA survivability) it would allow BA to focus fire a target down much more efficiently in a raid situation but not allow a BA to spam a dot and become overpowered in a small group.

[Tinluen]

The reason BA are OP in small group PvP is because the ability to spam and stack a huge fire dot on multiple targets while if there is a lm it is too busy with other skills to keep wound removal spammed it has nothing to do with mitigations. Without that fire dot though BA would be very weak in small group pvp. In raid v raid the fire dot is useless because there are multiple lms so wound removal is more accessible. By completely nerfing the fire dot which takes away from BA damage but then compensating with burst Damage( the changes I provided would still have far less damage than a hunter, for good reason such as higher BA survivability) it would allow BA to focus fire a target down much more efficiently in a raid situation but not allow a BA to spam a dot and become overpowered in a small group.

That would be dependent upon the server. Not many LMs on E right now raiding up to wipe fire dots. The overlap of a fire dot to the wound pot cure makes it damaging. Also any other wound will mask the dot as well. Not everyone runs with a pocket LM.

I haven't seen you post any numbers yet. How much of an increase you are wanting here? How much of a decrease to fire dot? There are no specifics to judge. An across the board ramping up of DPS for all BA attacks for a small drop in the fire dot would be tricky to dial in. Maybe a combination of the death blossom and changing some attacks from common to shadow would be a better option. It would need quite a bit of testing to get it right.

I understand the want for up front damage, but you can't just say lower the dot damage and give us an increase.

Tydalmir

[deathman22]

That would be dependent upon the server. Not many LMs on E right now raiding up to wipe fire dots. The overlap of a fire dot to the wound pot cure makes it damaging. Also any other wound will mask the dot as well. Not everyone runs with a pocket LM.

I haven't seen you post any numbers yet. How much of an increase you are wanting here? How much of a decrease to fire dot? There are no specifics to judge. An across the board ramping up of DPS for all BA attacks for a small drop in the fire dot would be tricky to dial in. Maybe a combination of the death blossom and changing some attacks from common to shadow would be a better option. It would need quite a bit of testing to get it right.

I understand the want for up front damage, but you can't just say lower the dot damage and give us an increase.

Tydalmir

ARE YOU SERIOUS? LMFAO DI YOU READ THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD NO NUMBER? ...lol FIRE DOT>>>

[timmyloo22546]

ARE YOU SERIOUS? LMFAO DI YOU READ THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD NO NUMBER? ...lol FIRE DOT>>>

Guess what, I read your first post.

The damage increase you suggested to a BA is HUGE. I don't know if you realize this, but creeps generally have more morale than freeps, and more mitigation. So by putting out the same number as hunters do against freeps (with generally less morale AND mitigations), it would greatly tip the scale and give BAs easy mode.

I will give you an example below...

This is why I suggest that flame dot be severely nerfed and black arrow based damage and CRIT/DEV MULTIPLIERS BOOSTED.

Headshot currently has a 30second cooldown and base is 531 Common damage. On non heavies this hits in the low 400s( can dev for a little over 1k). I suggest that its cooldown gets increased to 1minute is base damage increased to about 750( will now dev like a hunters merci shot) and its induction removed.

Instead of doing a dev for 1k with the skill (doing common damage)...increasing the base damage will have it dev for like 1.4k+. Now when you change the damage type from common to shadow mitigation, it will likely be at 1.6k against the squishies on a dev. On top of that, you mentioned you wanted to increase the crit/dev MULTIPLIER...which will likely bring it up to roughly 2k+ dev crit. You basically doubled the damage of ONE skill in this example...and you are talking similar changes to other skills at the cost of a measily 50-90 damage decrease in fire dot per tick (which you claim is often removed, so it really is minimal damage you are giving up).

2 BAs will be taking out freep healers in a matter of 3s creep time and .5s freep time (the time they get to react because they won't know the VT induction is happening...so once they get hit by VT they will then be headshotted and no-you-don't nearly instantly afterwards).

[deathman22]

Guess what, I read your first post.

The damage increase you suggested to a BA is HUGE. I don't know if you realize this, but creeps generally have more morale than freeps, and more mitigation. So by putting out the same number as hunters do against freeps (with generally less morale AND mitigations), it would greatly tip the scale and give BAs easy mode.

I will give you an example below...




Instead of doing a dev for 1k with the skill (doing common damage)...increasing the base damage will have it dev for like 1.4k+. Now when you change the damage type from common to shadow mitigation, it will likely be at 1.6k against the squishies on a dev. On top of that, you mentioned you wanted to increase the crit/dev MULTIPLIER...which will likely bring it up to roughly 2k+ dev crit. You basically doubled the damage of ONE skill in this example...and you are talking similar changes to other skills at the cost of a measily 50-90 damage decrease in fire dot per tick (which you claim is often removed, so it really is minimal damage you are giving up).

2 BAs will be taking out freep healers in a matter of 3s creep time and .5s freep time (the time they get to react because they won't know the VT induction is happening...so once they get hit by VT they will then be headshotted and no-you-don't nearly instantly afterwards).

Ok buddy not that half the things you said were accurate but I am not a developer all I am suggesting is changing BA damage from DOT to burst the devs can come up with exact numbers . Somewhere under the dps of a hunter but still maintaining greater survivability...

[Tinluen]

ARE YOU SERIOUS? LMFAO DI YOU READ THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD NO NUMBER? ...lol FIRE DOT>>>

I am talking percentage increases. Your numbers are all over the place depending on the skill. Some increases are 75% while taking a 30% decrease in one skill only. That is not going to cut it. You need to streamline the damage you seek while being realistic in what you are willing to give up to get it. The dot and the increased cooldowns on some of your proposals are way out of kilter.

Tydalmir

[timmyloo22546]

Ok buddy not that half the things you said were accurate but I am not a developer all I am suggesting is changing BA damage from DOT to burst the devs can come up with exact numbers . Somewhere under the dps of a hunter but still maintaining greater survivability...

What isn't accurate about what I said?

You said yourself, headshot can already dev crit for a lil over 1k while being common damage. You want to increase the base damage by 219--(750-531)--which is a 29.2% increase in base damage. Light armour common mitigation is around 25% give or take I think. Their shadow mitigation is 11-20% depending on gear and virtues. That is roughly another 15% damage increase by changing the damage type (will be more for medium and heavy armour wearers). You also said the crit/dev multiplier should be boosted, which obviously INCREASES the damage even further. I am simply showing you the changes YOU suggested and the potential damage increase of 1 skill nearly being doubled.

You said half the things I said were not accurate, but you never said how. Please enlighten me. Until then, you fail and know you want ezmode but just won't admit it.

[Odin_of_Freyr]

In raid v raid the fire dot is useless

This is where I realized you don't think like a normal person. Sorry for even attempting to set you straight using logical arguments and rational thought. I've basically been asking a rock to do some algebra. /apologies

[2weak4u]

The comment about BA's needing to move away from being a binary class is completely accurate.

Honestly, with the amount of QQ I see about easymode fire dots, I thought the OPs proposal would be welcomed by freeps. Doesn't matter to me either way, I'll continue to slow cook the freeps if thats what they wish. Just hope I don't see any of the trolls in this thread complaining about getting dotted up.

[Silverbranch]

Achually it is a good idea

BA's dps is the most underpowered of all classes (given his main roll is ranged dps)

Yet put 4 of them together and theirs dot are Nuts

even comparing hunters with BA's - Hunters can play a much better roll and yet out dps them (hence the low moral/avoidances) and its not even with BA's survivability

Can BA's even solo any class of freeps? honestly

Oh but i would like to see a signal for VT just like HS

Don't know I've really seen four BA fire dots be particularly scary to Freeps in group PvP. Solo with no healers about, maybe, but that's 4v1 anyway.

[Silverbranch]

I just see a wall of text asking for a class' role to be changed. I didn't read it (like one of the above posters). Ba's are a dot class. Deal with it.

Exactly.

And CC is more important for a DoT based class, as opposed to a burst class, in PvP.

That's why I didn't suggest any changes to the BA DoT DPS profile, but instead suggested two CC effects be added in the Ranks 5 to 8 range: 1) A melee knockdown, 2) Bards Arrow.

They'd still have significantly less CC available than Hunters, but at least wouldn't be as ineffective as they currently are while also adding SOME additional modes of game-play.