Lifetime Account Members Thread

[Ehra]

looked at that first link and it goes along with what they say over there gona be lots of low level stuff coming

Something to keep in mind is that, when it first released, DDO, had a relatively low level cap (wasn't it 12?). Everything after that was released in free updates (since DDO never had expansions to my knowledge), up until it went F2P.

edit: But, yes. I'd bet on us getting a fair amount of new low-mid level areas. An alternative to Moria at some point would be pretty awesome, as well.

[Khafar]

And for me the future of LOTRO is right here for all to see.

Not really. Look at the mix of stuff delivered after DDO went F2P - they've hardly neglected level 11+ content. As for that chart: it's terribly misleading. If you ran a chart of content for LOTRO, it would be "bottom-heavy" too. Why? Because these games shipped with a lower level cap (10 in DDO's case), and they had several years to develop lots of content for that range before it shipped.

When LOTRO shipped, over 1/3 of all the quests in the game were in n00b areas (levels 1-15). They invested heavily there up front, because they knew even then that first impressions would make or break attachment rates. And if you look for level 60-65 quests as a percentage of the total, it's going to be fairly small. But it will increase over time, although never near the level of the lowbie content. They simply don't have pre-launch time and resources to pump into it before moving on to a new level cap.

Khafar

[willwheels]

In case you haven't seen it, here's a graph from DDO showing where the money has gone:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...t=quests+graph

Isn't that a graph of the total number of quests and not quests added since F2P, as some seem to interpret it?

And here's a set of slides that DDO's EP Fernando Paiz used at the recent GDC conference:

http://cmpmedia.vo.llnwd.net/o1/vaul...ation_SOGS.pdf

As an economist, slide 7 is awesome.

[Krakenheim]

Not really. Look at the mix of stuff delivered after DDO went F2P - they've hardly neglected level 11+ content. As for that chart: it's terribly misleading. If you ran a chart of content for LOTRO, it would be "bottom-heavy" too. Why? Because these games shipped with a lower level cap (10 in DDO's case), and they had several years to develop lots of content for that range before it shipped.

When LOTRO shipped, over 1/3 of all the quests in the game were in n00b areas (levels 1-15). They invested heavily there up front, because they knew even then that first impressions would make or break attachment rates. And if you look for level 60-65 quests as a percentage of the total, it's going to be fairly small. But it will increase over time, although never near the level of the lowbie content. They simply don't have pre-launch time and resources to pump into it before moving on to a new level cap.

Khafar

Take a close look at this:

Lots of interesting stuff there, but slide #36 is really interesting:

"Thinking Before and After: New Content

Box & Subscription: “We have to build more content for elders to maintain subs.”

Free to Play + MTX: “We have to build more of what’s selling.”

THAT is the LOTROs future, unfortunetly.

[Ulrek]

If you're an absolute cynic, yes. But I see no evidence that they'll be doing that for this game.

I am not a cynic.... simply a businessman.

At the end of the day one of the goals of F2P in this case will be to get more money out of its lifers than they would with a traditional model (one paid expansion a year).

The way I described it one way to do that. And a fairly predictable (from a budget sense) way.

A lot of industries are heading towards microtransactions... gaming is just one of them.

[Comstrike]

Yeah keep telling yourself that LOL . I'll check back in a year and see if you feel the same way. AS it is all of my real life freinds quit last year. The 300 person guild has 2 loggin a week if that. I took a year off and have finsihsed SOM in 2 weeks. YAY for content...

Denial and isolation, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance.

Yeah, a year should be about right, I'll see you after you get done fuming at the world you can't control.

Again, you can't compare your SWG issues with LOTRO. If this game had such issues that you are stomping off, I question the depth of logic in your thinking, especially having supposedly paid for three lifer accounts.

Have fun where ever you are that isn't here!

[Ehra]

Take a close look at this:

Lots of interesting stuff there, but slide #36 is really interesting:

"Thinking Before and After: New Content

Box & Subscription: “We have to build more content for elders to maintain subs.”

Free to Play + MTX: “We have to build more of what’s selling.”

THAT is the LOTROs future, unfortunetly.

Consider that many of the new players are still at the low levels. As the average player level begins to increase, Turbine will begin developing more and more higher level content. It's like when LOTRO first came out, the first new area we got (from what I can remember) was Evendim, not a max level area that many people haven't even reached yet.

And they will always be providing us with advances in the Epic quests, since they make everyone happy.

[Ascus]

... AS it is all of my real life freinds quit last year. The 300 person guild has 2 loggin a week if that. I took a year off and have finsihsed SOM in 2 weeks. YAY for content...

This is exactly why F2P will work, to get more people playing. DDO had 20% of former players returning and 10x the number of players, that is great.

The game is not changing just the way its paid for.

[gildhur]

Take a close look at this:

Lots of interesting stuff there, but slide #36 is really interesting:

"Thinking Before and After: New Content

Box & Subscription: “We have to build more content for elders to maintain subs.”

Free to Play + MTX: “We have to build more of what’s selling.”

THAT is the LOTROs future, unfortunetly.

I don't have the numbers, but I would guess that DDO before F2P didn't have very many high level players left. After F2P, their primary community WAS low level players, so they made lots of that kind of content.

LotRO is not in that situation. We have tons of capped players. Yes, they're revamping low level content because for the slew of new F2P players that's going to be the first thing they see, and Turbine wants to make sure they stick around. But for the rest of us, they know they have to keep our subscriptions too, so they're going to be adding high level content too. If you need assurance: the new landscape being added with F2P is a level 62-65 zone.

[Ulrek]

Isn't that a graph of the total number of quests and not quests added since F2P, as some seem to interpret it?



As an economist, slide 7 is awesome.

Interesting presentation.... I liked slide 39...

"Beta testing with real money"

So it seems that betas might have to test with real money and then get points "granted back" at launch....

Hmmmmm interesting.... making money by testing....

[FoxFire]

As an economist, slide 7 is awesome.

I have to admit that there are at least a couple of MMOGs I would pick up playing right now if they became F2P games.

With a limited amount of play time I don't like to be paying a monthly subscription for a game I might only play a few hours or less each month, or put down for a couple months while I'm paying a recurring subscription fee that I didn't cancel because I thought perhaps I might want to play at any moment.

[gildhur]

Interesting presentation.... I liked slide 39...

"Beta testing with real money"

So it seems that betas might have to test with real money and then get points "granted back" at launch....

Hmmmmm interesting.... making money by testing....

Yes, Patience already confirmed that. It's the only way to really gauge what works and what doesn't. If people just have free points handed to them for beta, they're going to buy lots of garbage that they wouldn't normally buy, and won't care about how much it costs.

[Ayrolen]

So it seems that betas might have to test with real money and then get points "granted back" at launch....

They don't have to do anything. If they want to spend points above and beyond what they are given to test with, then yes, they'll have to use their own money.

[Khafar]

Take a close look at this:

I did. Even quoted that exact slide in a post yesterday . You're forgetting that he's talking about a F2P mindset, and DDO (and LOTRO, moving forward) aren't really F2P games. They're hybrids, with both F2P players and subscribers (and the dedicated goal of converting freebs into Premium players and subscribers). That means they need to have split "thinking" about how they plan out their development, and if you look at what DDO's actually delivered in their post-relaunch updates... there has still been a good amount of high-level content.

Besides, what do you think is going to happen as the game moves past Moria and Mirkwood to Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor? Do you honestly believe that they're going to make Gondor into a level 20-30 area? That the the instances for Helm's Deep or the Battle of Pelennor will be for n00bs? It's just silly.

No, the iconic story locations for the game moving forward will be mostly or entirely high-level, providing an incentive for the F2P people to buy more content so they can get to "the good stuff" themselves. They might get some new areas for mid-level back in Eriador, and I'd welcome that myself. Maybe they'll eventually have "specials" where Moria and Mirkwood can be bought really cheaply, encouraging F2P people to move on. Perhaps leveling speeds will be increased again as well. But I'm pretty sure we're heading to higher level caps over time. Even the first new content delivered under F2P will be level 62-65, not aimed at "what sells".

Khafar

[Raath]

I don't have the numbers, but I would guess that DDO before F2P didn't have very many high level players left. After F2P, their primary community WAS low level players, so they made lots of that kind of content.

Before the game went F2P, the VAST MAJORITY of players were at level cap.

I mean, the whole reason they went F2P is because they couldnt get new players.

[gildhur]

They don't have to do anything. If they want to spend points above and beyond what they are given to test with, then yes, they'll have to use their own money.

Or they can just test Enedwaith and Book 2.

[Ulrek]

Yes, Patience already confirmed that. It's the only way to really gauge what works and what doesn't. If people just have free points handed to them for beta, they're going to buy lots of garbage that they wouldn't normally buy, and won't care about how much it costs.

Agreed... makes sense

[Raath]

I did. Even quoted that exact slide in a post yesterday . You're forgetting that he's talking about a F2P mindset, and neither DDO nor LOTRO are really F2P games. They're hybrids, with both F2P players and subscribers. That means they need to have split "thinking" about how they plan out their development, and if you look at what DDO's actually delivered... there has still been a good amount of high-level content.

There has been exactly 14 new quests for high level (lvl12+) players since F2P, 1 incentive to replay the game (True Reincarnation), and a way to replay the some of same quests a that have already been ran 100's of times.

[runespeaker]

For some reason (morbid curiosity? rabid insanity? incomprehensible self-loathing?) I read this entire thread. As it's a bit spent by now, I don't really have anything to add, but after such a long slog, I feel compelled to leave my mark, so I will say this...

I am a lifer, and I can understand why some people are troubled. I felt a moment of wistfulness myself when I first heard the news...a feeling of something ending, of an age passing. But that quickly gave way to a sense of hope and possibility. One age passes, but another begins. Who can say what it will hold? We can't know. But I for one am very excited to find out (and will be hoarding all my points in gleeful anticipation)!

Good luck, Turbine! And thanks for treating those of us with lifetime memberships so well. I can't wait to be a permanent VIP this fall...

[Khafar]

There has been exactly 14 new quests for high level (lvl12+) players since F2P, 1 incentive to replay the game (True Reincarnation), and a way to replay the some of same quests a that have already been ran 100's of times.

What percentage of development does that represent? 40%, maybe? The main thrust of the first two updates (new adventure packs) were aimed at high-level players, and complaining about making older content relevant again is crazy - that's a great way to give people more endgame. If they were to offer an "Epic" difficulty to the Rift at level 65 (with new rewards), I suspect most people who enjoy endgame in LOTRO would rejoice - even if they've done the Rift many times before. More options = Good.

OK, so if you're used to 90% of new development being aimed at high-level content, 40% doesn't sound so great. I understand that. But they're getting updates at twice the rate of previous years so it's not as bad as it seems. The "endgame" slice of the pie is narrower than it used to be, but the pie itself has grown.

Khafar

[khanute]

Pass!

I was hoping to win some gold, I havent played in 2 months and 3 houses upkeep is expensive.

Can you send cross server gold ? The only thing I've really spent gold on is upkeep housing, which is lame in itself. Is there really any other use for gold besides equip repairs, house upkeep and stables ?

[ararax2]

Can you send cross server gold ? The only thing I've really spent gold on is upkeep housing, which is lame in itself. Is there really any other use for gold besides equip repairs, house upkeep and stables ?

That's about it unless you craft... which is not worth much.

And if you could send gold cross server I'd probably send my gold to Vilya buy 2nd ages there and sell them on BW or E.

[Raath]

What percentage of development does that represent? 40%, maybe? The main thrust of the first two updates (new adventure packs) were aimed at high-level players, and complaining about making older content relevant again is crazy - that's a great way to give people more endgame. If they were to offer an "Epic" difficulty to the Rift at level 65 (with new rewards), I suspect most people who enjoy endgame in LOTRO would rejoice - even if they've done the Rift many times before. More options = Good.

OK, so if you're used to 90% of new development being aimed at high-level content, 40% doesn't sound so great. I understand that. But they're getting updates at twice the rate of previous years so it's not as bad as it seems. The "endgame" slice of the pie is narrower than it used to be, but the pie itself has grown.

Khafar

I wasn't arguing with you, nor was I complaining. Just pointing out exactly what high levels have got. Some may think it's alot, some may think little. I leave it to the reader to decide.

It's pretty obvious you didn't play a high level character in DDO before it went f2P, or else you would understand why people complain about Turbine revamping the former endgame areas. It's just something you won't understand unless you were there I guess. But I'll try.

Let's say the Rift was the absolute only thing to do at endgame, and you run it hundreds of times because there's literally nothing else to do. After 4 months, they give you a new level cap and your excited to move on and do different things. And this goes on for a year or so...new level cap, new endgame every few months. Suddenly the next year, they give you a new level cap, but tell you that the new endgame is once again the Rift, just a bit harder......Would you really feel as if you're getting something new?

[Khafar]

Suddenly, they give you a new level cap, but tell you that the new endgame is once again the Rift.....a quest that you have already ran 100's of times. Would you really feel as if your getting something new?

Well, it wouldn't be as if the only thing available was the Rift - it's just another option, one I didn't have before. And even then it would depend on my past experiences. If I had indeed run the Rift 100 times before, I might not be all that interested in it, even reworked to level and with new rewards. But such players aren't all that exist in a game like this. In the past 18 months, tons of players have sailed past the Rift without doing it at all (and some of us only did it a couple of times even when it was "the endgame").

Bottom line: I can see why some DDO players might complain, but I still think it would be crazy for a lot of LOTRO players to do so . More Choices = Goodness.

Khafar

[Ainaur]

Technically with out rest xp and doing repeatable or instances there is not enough content to hit 65 from lv 60. I also remind you that there was only 1 skill per class in Mirkwood, and lv 65 gear is statistically inferior to lv 60.

...none of which detracts from the point. Mirkwood counts as an expansion because the level cap was raised. I think this has been the standard definition of expansion is every level-based MMO I've played.

You seem to be arguing that we've been low on content since (and including) the Mirkwood launch. I agree with you. I am not saying "OMG MIRKWOOD WAS THE BEST EXPANSION EVER!" I am simply stating *why* it was classed as an expansion.

Free content = book updates
Paid content = expansions
Expansions = level cap raise, unless Turbine decide to go wildly against the grain.