Lifetime Account Members Thread

[Apophiss1]

"The point is, ladies and gentleman, that greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Greed is right.

Greed works.

Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

And greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save LotR:O, but that other malfunctioning corporation called Turbine."

And adding to your "Greed is Good"...

The ability for Players to craft enhancement/buff items will be removed or changed.

There is no way that these items will be allowed (in their current form) to remain in the game, too much revenue to be reaped from them.

The items will be moved to the store OR items needed to create the recipe will require TP to purchase, and become boa or bind to account.

If not at the onset of F2P, it will happen soon after.

A cash cow of this potential will not be overlooked.

[Artanisul]

And adding to your "Greed is Good"...

The ability for Players to craft enhancement/buff items will be removed or changed.

There is no way that these items will be allowed (in their current form) to remain in the game, too much revenue to be reaped from them.

The items will be moved to the store OR items needed to create the recipe will require TP to purchase, and become boa or bind to account.

If not at the onset of F2P, it will happen soon after.

A cash cow of this potential will not be overlooked.

No way....

They will never make such an overt gesture to make money. There may be better ones in the store, not likely but far more likely then taking ours away. They are not going to reduce our ability to grind out things. "Worst" they can do is make it soooo much easier to "just buy it" from the store.

Remember, Turbine wont make us buy stuff from the store. Peer pressure might do that, but not Turbine. Nothing to make the game easier will be in the store without a way to gain it outside the game. Virtues...Gear...potions...not hing we use will be ONLY in that store. After a time people will start to buy them so readily that you may get pressure to "just buy it already". But that will be from the rich dude you hang with, not Turbine.

[Apophiss1]

No way....

They will never make such an overt gesture to make money. There may be better ones in the store, not likely but far more likely then taking ours away. They are not going to reduce our ability to grind out things. "Worst" they can do is make it soooo much easier to "just buy it" from the store.

Remember, Turbine wont make us buy stuff from the store. Peer pressure might do that, but not Turbine. Nothing to make the game easier will be in the store without a way to gain it outside the game. Virtues...Gear...potions...not hing we use will be ONLY in that store. After a time people will start to buy them so readily that you may get pressure to "just buy it already". But that will be from the rich dude you hang with, not Turbine.

We can agree to disagree.

And time will tell.

[Artanisul]

We can agree to disagree.

And time will tell.

Agreed.

[Comstrike]

Woot, Post 1776!



America!

There is hope for our community yet!

[Nymphonic]

Woot, Post 1776!



America!

The Duke came and all was good in Middle Earth...

[Digital_Utopia]

And adding to your "Greed is Good"...

The ability for Players to craft enhancement/buff items will be removed or changed.

There is no way that these items will be allowed (in their current form) to remain in the game, too much revenue to be reaped from them.

The items will be moved to the store OR items needed to create the recipe will require TP to purchase, and become boa or bind to account.

If not at the onset of F2P, it will happen soon after.

A cash cow of this potential will not be overlooked.

Don't underestimate the value and money that a subscription brings. If Turbine honestly felt that they could make more money with just F2P alone, they would've done so without making a hybrid model. Instead, they made the smart decision by adding F2P to their existing payment options - meaning that they can keep that "bird in the hand" while trying to get the "two in the bush".

Reducing the value of a subscription for the sake of attempting to make more money from the store is an unwise decision, because you're taking the risk of hurting your profits in exchange for the chance you might get a little more. There's nothing saying that those players would actually buy these items in enough quantities to make up for the subscribers that would quit.

You're also forgetting that Turbine has no history of trying to gouge people, so why should they start now?

[Starrywisdom]

No way....

They will never make such an overt gesture to make money.

This is untrue - they also said that the game wouldn't go F2P either; and yet here we are. Anything can happen down the road.

[Darej]

This is untrue - they also said that the game wouldn't go F2P either; and yet here we are. Anything can happen down the road.

no...what you are saying is untrue

they said AT THIS TIME they had no plans when they made that statement.

they NEVER said the game would not go f2p.

get your facts straight.

[Digital_Utopia]

This is untrue - they also said that the game wouldn't go F2P either; and yet here we are. Anything can happen down the road.

Actually they said "We have no plans to go F2P" which is not a promise, but a statement that at the point in time when that was written could have been true.

Furthermore, even if someone actually said "LotRO will never go F2P", it doesn't suddenly mean that any idea - no matter how ridiculous or far fetched suddenly has a good chance of being true, let alone being true.

After all, if that were the case I could simply use that strawman anywhere. For example:

I think that the store will contain level 65 2nd Age LIs with perfect legacies, DG radiance gear, and a flying fell beast mount.

Think I'm wrong? Say Turbine wouldn't do that? Well, they also said that they weren't going F2P so obviously you're wrong!

See how that works? It doesn't really. Everybody is entitled to their opinions sure, but their decision to go F2P does not make Turbine any more or less capable of fleecing their customers than before.

After all, I can think of several ideas that would work quite well for increasing profits without having to even mention F2P. Stuff like removing the discount on multi-month subscriptions, requiring Lifetime players to pay for book updates, charging everybody $20 for Mirkwood - etc. Oh sure, there would be people who would quit over it - but if they start fleecing subscribers with F2P, there would be a lot more people who would quit.

[GregJL]

You're also forgetting that Turbine has no history of trying to gouge people, so why should they start now?

Well, as to that, you could say a couple of letters might give them that idea.

[Digital_Utopia]

Well, as to that, you could say a couple of letters might give them that idea.

Sure, because everybody knows that creating a F2P system goes from planning to development to beta in slightly under 2 months right? lol

[Zarador]

After all, I can think of several ideas that would work quite well for increasing profits without having to even mention F2P. Stuff like removing the discount on multi-month subscriptions, requiring Lifetime players to pay for book updates, charging everybody $20 for Mirkwood - etc. Oh sure, there would be people who would quit over it - but if they start fleecing subscribers with F2P, there would be a lot more people who would quit.

See, I find this interesting:

Offer no discount to people THAT PAY FOR EVERY MONTH. Frankly, I would love to see the comparison of income generated by long term subscribers over the bargain lifetime plan.

3 years as a full rate month to month subscriber: $540.00
3 years as a discounted multi month subscriber $360.00
3 years as a lifetimer $200.00-$300.00

Basically fleece the people that choose to pay for every month to avoid having to add people that will potentially pay even more over time.

Then of course there is the store, which you both mention, yet fail to call out by name. I say this because you can't get any extra money from a subscriber unless they CHOOSE to use the store and spend more money. You can't "fleece" as subscriber with F2P because they are not playing free, so clearly you mean the store. So we can eliminate the store as extra revenue.

Then there is F2P which many here are against. Another source of income that you would avoid.

Then there is the charge for Mirkwood, that you suggest everyone should have to pay. But then again, that was a choice to either get the expansion or the adventure pack free with the purchase of the other. So in essence, combine that cost and both subscribers and lifetime players pay $40 each? I think that would not only tick many players off, but also cause them to come up short in the end because $20 extra per player does not add up to a long term gain. It's a quick revenue boost, but not a solution.

So in the end, your suggestion boils down to charging the pay every month subscribers an extra $80 a year ($20 expansion extra and $60 a year extra in subscription fees), on top of the $120 a year their paying now so they wind up paying $200 a year? the lifetime subscriber an extra $20 a year and their plan winds up essentially paying for itself in a little more than a year?

I'm guessing there is some reason that they don't offer the lifetime plan 100% of the time. I'm even going to speculate that in the long term, it's not that advantageous to the company. If it were, they would be raking in the money by those players begging to get another chance at a lifetime subscription. Since they are a business, I would speculate that they prefer getting $360 from a month to month or $240 from a multi-month plan over two years more than they enjoy getting that lump sum of $200 for life.

So, in essence, they took the creative route. Some players will pay extra to engage in F2P and Premium Play. Some players will continue to foot the monthly subscription and give them steady revenue. Everyone has a chance to spend some money in the store. Lifetimers get the most free points because somehow they deserve more. VIP's get a few points so they don't feel totally hosed over in the end.

I would also add that I HAVE NOTHING against any lifetimer that was smart enough to lock in a great deal. I in fact regret that I never took them up on the offer. I'm just simply pointing out that the lifetime membership was a great deal in favor of most lifetimers and should really be viewed that way. I would also think that making changes that could in effect provide a better chance at longevity based on what others are willing to pay for is in their favor.

[GregJL]

Sure, because everybody knows that creating a F2P system goes from planning to development to beta in slightly under 2 months right? lol

Of course it does! And not only that, but the DDO system was actually developed in the future and sent back to last year.

But I was responding to why people might think Turbine would change into a money-grubbing scum factory.

[Fudoshin]

I'm just simply pointing out that the lifetime membership was a great deal in favor of most lifetimers and should really be viewed that way. I would also think that making changes that could in effect provide a better chance at longevity based on what others are willing to pay for is in their favor.

Great stuff there, is it true that lifers will now want stuff (not need it) they have to pay money for they didn't before, I am guessing that will be the case, hence I wasn't jumping around shouting yay now other people will pay for my game I invested in.

That said, as a lifer you can choose to take the long road, and store your points..instant gratification others purchase may irk you but that wasn't the contract.

The grey area is what the contract was, I am no expert but I remember access for the life of the game* and I never really read the fine print of*. The legality around what "the game" is is probably pretty complex. Either way many were unhappy and complaining at the way it was growing (not very well by SoM standards IMO) and Turbine has decided this will be better.

As a lifer if I have to start to pay for things now purely because they are desired over and above what I can do already..smart business to them I say, as long as they don't start allowing purchases of things that we couldn't already get. They said the game will remain much the same, is the difference that now there will be rare drops for stat increases that can be alternatively purchased for real money, or something equally abhorrent? I dunno but I hope not.

[Digital_Utopia]

See, I find this interesting:

Offer no discount to people THAT PAY FOR EVERY MONTH. Frankly, I would love to see the comparison of income generated by long term subscribers over the bargain lifetime plan.

3 years as a full rate month to month subscriber: $540.00
3 years as a discounted multi month subscriber $360.00
3 years as a lifetimer $200.00-$300.00

Basically fleece the people that choose to pay for every month to avoid having to add people that will potentially pay even more over time.

Then of course there is the store, which you both mention, yet fail to call out by name. I say this because you can't get any extra money from a subscriber unless they CHOOSE to use the store and spend more money. You can't "fleece" as subscriber with F2P because they are not playing free, so clearly you mean the store. So we can eliminate the store as extra revenue.

Then there is F2P which many here are against. Another source of income that you would avoid.

Then there is the charge for Mirkwood, that you suggest everyone should have to pay. But then again, that was a choice to either get the expansion or the adventure pack free with the purchase of the other. So in essence, combine that cost and both subscribers and lifetime players pay $40 each? I think that would not only tick many players off, but also cause them to come up short in the end because $20 extra per player does not add up to a long term gain. It's a quick revenue boost, but not a solution.

So in the end, your suggestion boils down to charging the pay every month subscribers an extra $80 a year ($20 expansion extra and $60 a year extra in subscription fees), on top of the $120 a year their paying now so they wind up paying $200 a year? the lifetime subscriber an extra $20 a year and their plan winds up essentially paying for itself in a little more than a year?

I'm guessing there is some reason that they don't offer the lifetime plan 100% of the time. I'm even going to speculate that in the long term, it's not that advantageous to the company. If it were, they would be raking in the money by those players begging to get another chance at a lifetime subscription. Since they are a business, I would speculate that they prefer getting $360 from a month to month or $240 from a multi-month plan over two years more than they enjoy getting that lump sum of $200 for life.

So, in essence, they took the creative route. Some players will pay extra to engage in F2P and Premium Play. Some players will continue to foot the monthly subscription and give them steady revenue. Everyone has a chance to spend some money in the store. Lifetimers get the most free points because somehow they deserve more. VIP's get a few points so they don't feel totally hosed over in the end.

I would also add that I HAVE NOTHING against any lifetimer that was smart enough to lock in a great deal. I in fact regret that I never took them up on the offer. I'm just simply pointing out that the lifetime membership was a great deal in favor of most lifetimers and should really be viewed that way. I would also think that making changes that could in effect provide a better chance at longevity based on what others are willing to pay for is in their favor.

My point was merely to show that if Turbine was as "greedy" as people are proclaiming, they had more than enough opportunity to show it before implementing F2P.

There are those who are convinced that if a company decides to implement F2P, even if it's alongside a subscription model, that the company suddenly looses sight of sensible business strategy (presumably due to those giant dollar signs in their eyes) and chooses to bend over everybody that plays their game because of it.

I find it hard to believe that a company can go from great deals to Mr. Scrooge in F-2-P seconds. Yes, they're doing this to get more people, which means more money - but there's a difference between trying to grow and making money job #1. I mean sure, it's possible - but if subscribers weren't making them money, and they felt that F2P was the way to make money hand over fist - then why bother not only keeping the subscription model, but also making it look like the better deal?

Of course it does! And not only that, but the DDO system was actually developed in the future and sent back to last year.

But I was responding to why people might think Turbine would change into a money-grubbing scum factory.

Oh sure! I mean when I think of money grubbing scum factories posing as game developers WB is totally at the top of my list. I mean they just make companies such as EA and ubisoft look like they really care about the games they make, and are totally not about the money. I mean let me just fire off the examples that proves how evil and money hungry WB is

...

Actually, I'm drawing a blank here. I mean, I can't say everything their child companies have put out was the best thing ever made - but they were at least average, and at best pretty damn good.

[trancejeremy]

My point was merely to show that if Turbine was as "greedy" as people are proclaiming, they had more than enough opportunity to show it before implementing F2P.

There are those who are convinced that if a company decides to implement F2P, even if it's alongside a subscription model, that the company suddenly looses sight of sensible business strategy (presumably due to those giant dollar signs in their eyes) and chooses to bend over everybody that plays their game because of it.

One could argue that happened with Mirkwood (1/4 of an expansion at only 1/2 the cost) or the Adventurer's Pack ($20 for a goat and some character slots).

And you miss the whole point of the "free to play" thing, it's not about getting more people, it's about getting the people who pay to pay more.

The average person who pays in a F2P game pays almost twice what they would in a P2P game ($28 vs $15, or $10 here).

You could argue that Turbine is some sort of saintly company that would never dream of doing such a thing. But it's SOP for every other F2P company on earth.

As I said in another thread, probably the quickest way to determine Turbine's true intentions, is seeing if they partner with something like Super Rewards or Peanut Labs or
the like that offers "free" in game points for being scammed in various ways out of more money than buying the points would have cost in the first place.

But once a game goes F2P, the ways of making money are very subtle. That's really the insidious thing. Something completely unnoticed by the player (making monsters tougher) can boost the sales of buffs. And no one would really know.

[Drifter25]

But once a game goes F2P, the ways of making money are very subtle. That's really the insidious thing. Something completely unnoticed by the player (making monsters tougher) can boost the sales of buffs. And no one would really know.

They were going to make monsters tougher anyway, though that may have been in part because of this. I seen a developer diary back near the holidays that mentioned the further along in the story we get, the more Sauron's influence grows, the stronger all enemies become or something on that order.

[Digital_Utopia]

One could argue that happened with Mirkwood (1/4 of an expansion at only 1/2 the cost) or the Adventurer's Pack ($20 for a goat and some character slots).

1/4? How so? Are you implying that we got 4x as much in Moria? The Adventurer's Pack was and is still completely optional. I personally had no need for it, so I didn't buy it.

And you miss the whole point of the "free to play" thing, it's not about getting more people, it's about getting the people who pay to pay more.

You act as if there's a mythical group of players that are walking around looking at subscription MMOs as if they're too cheap for them. No, rather the idea is to attract people who would normally feel that a subscription is too much, by letting them log in for free, and then tempting them with more content/fluff/other stuff so they spend....

The average person who pays in a F2P game pays almost twice what they would in a P2P game ($28 vs $15, or $10 here).

...and often spend more than a flat rate - the exact same plan that every carnival has been using since the beginning of time. They let you walk in for free, and then tempt you with rides, refreshments, food, toys, games etc. Most people find themselves paying a lot more than what they thought they would.

You could argue that Turbine is some sort of saintly company that would never dream of doing such a thing. But it's SOP for every other F2P company on earth.

There's nothing wrong with that practice - the argument lies in whether they will abuse their current subscribers in the process. There is no doubt that the purpose of F2P is to nickel and dime F2P players, as they're certainly not giving away their game for free. - that's obvious.

Rather, the debate is whether or not accommodating a playstyle/payment method such as F2P means that current subscribing customers must face the same payment method - even if they're already paying their monthly fee. That is the difference between running F2P for profit, and just being plain greedy. I'm not saying they won't put things in the store that subscribers might want; but putting stuff in the store that subscribers/lifetimers need, with no other way of feasibly getting those things via normal game play is a different story.

As I said in another thread, probably the quickest way to determine Turbine's true intentions, is seeing if they partner with something like Super Rewards or Peanut Labs or
the like that offers "free" in game points for being scammed in various ways out of more money than buying the points would have cost in the first place.

Yeah, that would certainly be low class at the very least - Though, especially after that whole "offer wall" debacle, I imagine they'll be thinking twice. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect Turbine to sail through this without a misstep, sometimes what seems like a great deal really isn't, but as long as they continue to work with their players, instead of ignoring them in the process of chasing the dollar, I can't ask for much more.

But once a game goes F2P, the ways of making money are very subtle. That's really the insidious thing. Something completely unnoticed by the player (making monsters tougher) can boost the sales of buffs. And no one would really know.

Sometimes it pays to keep in mind that a subscription based MMO works a lot closer to a F2P based MMO than you would think. Remember, in both cases they want to keep players giving them money - whether it be through a store, or through a subscription. So any way they can keep a subscriber playing instead of letting their subscription lapse is fair game. Whether that be making (raid) monsters tougher, increasing a grind, or gating a goal - all of these methods work to ultimately slow down a player and preventing them from "winning" and leaving too quickly.

It's only a variation of this that appears with F2P - the exception being that instead of getting the player to play more - it's to get them to pay more. However, it's important to note that F2P isn't this game's only source of income, and regardless of how many dedicated F2P players the game gets, it not only won't make subscribers an insignificant source of income, but some of those players are likely to become subscribers as well. If memory serves, DDO got a 20% uptick in that department. So while the nickel and diming will still be there for the F2P players, they're not living and dying by every penny F2P is bringing in.

Yes, other F2P games do a lot of nasty tricks - but then again, that's their only source of income, so you gotta do whatever you have to do. LotRO on the other hand only needs F2P to make it grow - so every F2P player that sticks around is just adding to an already moderately successful subscription game.

[Zarador]

The grey area is what the contract was, I am no expert but I remember access for the life of the game* and I never really read the fine print of*. The legality around what "the game" is is probably pretty complex.

I'm no lawyer, so I could be wrong of course, but it is of my opinion that "the gray area" is an area being created by the players, not Turbine. Certainly it is fully acceptable by all means to desire extra perks, we all do! The "Access" up until now has been defined as being able to "log in" and access the game without paying a monthly fee if you have a lifetime account or paying per month to do the same if you don't. Everything else has always been "subject to change" as far as game mechanics go.

As you pointed out, being compelled to purchase items out of a desire to have them does not mean you are forced to. Since all four subscription models can walk up to the store and buy "20 potions of the nanny goat" for +1 perseverance, it's an added option, not something taken away from an account since it never existed before.

Two subscription access plans were added to the game. Both of those subscriptions have serious limitations and will more than likely cost more to maintain if they wanted the same options as the lifetime or pay per month access to the game. Bonus free points were added to the two existing plans as a free gift, not a reparation.

As you pointed out, you can pretend the store does not exist and use them to reduce or eliminate expansion/adventure pack costs. Of course there will be advantages in the eyes of some to outright purchase some store items that reduce game efforts (deed acceleration); however I don't see a way to entice someone to purchase something other than fluff that does not offer some convenience. From a personal standpoint, I never spent a penny on the Exchange Server or the SoE Store, even though it was an option because I don't care what others have, I prefer to earn what I can in the game and disregard what I can't. I play in their world, but I play my game if that makes sense. I feel the same about raid gear. I don't sweat not having the gear because I don't care to engage in what it takes to get that gear.

[ararax2]

Quest wise Moria was 4x Mirkwood, 2x level, probably 4.5x zones.(depends on Eregion and half of Lorien.
2x raids
7x 6 man

[Digital_Utopia]

Quest wise Moria was 4x Mirkwood, 2x level, probably 4.5x zones.(depends on Eregion and half of Lorien.
2x raids
7x 6 man

Eregion doesn't count - it wasn't part of the expansion.

As for Moria/Lothlorien goes....



are you sure about that? Looks to me like Mirkwood is at least 3/4 of the landmass of Moria and the little bit of Lothlorien available at launch. Although Moria did have some multi-level areas to it, those were very few and far between.


Moria Launched with 7x instances (6 radiance + FT) and two raids, compared to Mirkwood's 3x instances, and one raid.

It's hard to tell exactly how many quests each had to do an accurate comparison, but it's not exactly fair either, as Moria was stacked heavier from 55-60 than it was 50-55.

I will however agree that Moria certainly had more than twice the books (6) than Mirkwood (1)

[GregJL]

Actually, I'm drawing a blank here. I mean, I can't say everything their child companies have put out was the best thing ever made - but they were at least average, and at best pretty damn good.

LOL! But they MUST be money-grubbing scum! I mean, we already know the top guys at Turbine are, otherwise why would they have "sold out to the man"? And WB must be money-grubbers, why else would they buy Turbine and turn LOTRO into a cesspool of "pay-to-win"? You watch, WB is gonna start chargin us for "AFK" messages, I'll bet. They'll be sending us feeding tubes, pee-bottles, and credit-card processing machines as soon as F2P starts, so we never have to leave the puter. Don't you know? ALL corporations are EVIL.

[Fudoshin]

Rather, the debate is whether or not accommodating a playstyle/payment method such as F2P means that current subscribing customers must face the same payment method - even if they're already paying their monthly fee. That is the difference between running F2P for profit, and just being plain greedy. I'm not saying they won't put things in the store that subscribers might want; but putting stuff in the store that subscribers/lifetimers need, with no other way of feasibly getting those things via normal game play is a different story.

This is what I think is the crux of it, and the key words in there is feasibly and need, and I have said in other threads there are lots of ways they can add things in store that will make purchase a near requirement, or an effective one, that may drop (for example) but on a regularity similar to Helegrod armour used to drop across the world from normal mobs in earlier SoA. I got a 1 piece but I know many who didn't any, they had to do the raid.

So there are issues of feasibility around what technically can be achieved in game..or just purchased for the paltry sum of a dollar or whatever at your discretion. 300hrs grinding normal mobs or $2, you choose. Fair enough some people may say, I never needed Helegrod armor it's your choice if you want to buy it...and I agree but that's not my point.

What if it was something greater than a few points different, I read recently an article on MMOF2P monetization one of the biggest selling pressures is PEER pressure, we play the game grouped, someone notices some of your stats are low-ish and you had been wiping the group consistently, and it turns out you hadn't bought all your stat upgrades, and we don't know they will only go as far as virtues with something like this BTW....probably a bit simplistic but the idea is there, and it could be more subtle.

What if, maybe your stats are ok BUT you haven't got your consumable "Book of ICMR" which is vital to countering some DOT in a new instance [Endgame]. Just because it drops 1 in 20/30/40 clears of Sammuth Gul but can be purchased readily for only $1, well... you don't want to let your group down...and it could be even more insidious, it might have been a 2 hour instance thus far, and you don't find out you need this "Book of ICMR" until the end...sorry guys I don't have $1...lets just leave the last boss until I have saved enough or got the drop from SG..yea right.

The above example may be extreme, but my point is needed and desired are very easily blurred. We can assume all this change is being done to make money, as a lifer I was never concerned I will have to pay more to play the game over time because, I was always going to have to get xpacs (or fluffpacs like the adventurers) anyway. I AM concerned that the store is going to be made effectively necessary over and above that even though I am "a subscriber", and by "effectively necessary" I mean store items while not required to play the game but are required to enjoy the full content of it. I already paid my sub and for expansion X why should I buy that **** as well?

Just adding an item into world drops in the game doesn't necessarily mean it's all OK and "I can keep playing as a VIP just as I have always done".

I apologize if all this sounds negative, and I hope it doesn't come to pass, but Turbine has to be really careful IMO about how this is done, and I am sure they want revenue from lifers (subscribers too) just as much as they want it from F2Pers.

[Gedachtnis]

In the months and years following the launch of F2P I predict we will see most if not all of the following topics;

Xpac xxx, PROOF Turbine lied - Turbine said we wouldn't have to pay for content updates and now they pull this!

LEVEL CAP INCREASE??!! PROOF Turbine is increasing the grind to make money from us!

Virtues now cap @ 15! - This announcement further illustrates how WB has corrupted Turbine into a cash grab. No one has ever said Virtues need to increase EVAR! They don't listen to the players they just want money. Now I am being forced to buy the +1 to Virtues. And don't talk to me how there are 5000 ways to earn the deeds in game free cause it isn't free, I have to buy SOMETHING I'm sure, to do it and it's all their fault.

My ISP increased my rates, obviously they know I play LotRO and they are owned by WB. Just another way F2P has ruined the game

F2Per's DESTROYED my Kin!!! Sure we were about to die because lots of us weren't playing anymore and now we have over a hundred people, but it's not like it used to be, I used to know everyone, Turbine/WB ruined it all.

Symbol's of Whowhats - Terribad drop rate in the Treebeard's Tummy instance and not available to buy in the store... WHY IS IT EVEN IN THE GAME??? To increase the grind of course...

Log in queues??!! Further proof Turbine is forcing me to buy a subscription, remember back in Mirkwood when you could just log in and not see anyone anywhere?

Help Design the Monster Contest - ANOTHER evil ploy! They only do this to FORCE us to buy xpacs which they promised we wouldn't have to buy. Your lies are stacking up Turbine!!

Why did you nerf class x Turbine.. Just because we could solo the new raid doesn't mean we were broken. And don't give me that "it's was a bug" **** either. It's obvious this is just another attempt to make us buy potions and stuff.

Class x's ability Rooty Tooty Highfaluty is not stacking right and now I need to buy potions from the store cause my raid leader said so. I heard he actually works for WB and is just trying to make people buy in the store.

The Saruman's Sanctum instance is bugged, since we keep trying it without a class that can rez it's obvious that that Turbine is making us BUY rez stones! They refuse to fix it because it makes them money. Remember back in Mirkwood when everything always worked right and if it didn't they immediately fixed it? Oh I miss those days

/end