Lifetime Account Members Thread

[ararax2]

Moria is mostly an exception to the rule. They hired a lot of temporary people to work on Moria, and those people are gone. Of course, that starts the whole "ohh, they laid off people!" conspiracy theories. Moria was an amazing amount of effort in a very short time.

Compare more accurately to SoA period I think. There was a lot of dev effort then, but it was not solely on one particular thing; it was not only raids, not only new zones, and not only fluff. It was a mixture of a little bit of each, not a mixture of tons of each.

If you look at what was in Mirkwood (and I wish people would stop saying "it's been a over a year" since it hasn't been) it wasn't that small. Big zone, lots of quests, a handful of instances, a completely new skirmish system and all it has, new deeds, new recipes, new tweaks, etc. Maybe not a full expansion, but they didn't charge that much for it either...

3.2 is going to be big also. New zone, new quests, new tweaks, new revamp of low levels, scalable instances, a huge revamp to make F2P work, and whatever is still to be discovered after Beta NDA is released. That's not tiny, and it definitely takes a ton of developer time to do all that.

Yes, I know it's not chock full of only the stuff that you like to do. But they can't focus on only one small group of players at a time, they have to give a little bit of everything to keep more than a small group happy.

I'll call BS, we got 2 free and 1 paid update for MoM-SoM vs 4 free per year in SOA. Now post SoM we get 2 free 0 paid. Mirkwood was one of the smallest zones quest wise.
You can say how big 3.2 is when we get it, till then it is hype.

Mirkwood would have been great for free (It was 2 free updates worth aka the missing update) but it was not. Your making stuff up.

You've proven my point with regard to too much vs. too little communication. If they hadn't said that they wanted to get Lorien into the MoM expansion, then you would have considered it a content update. Since they did, you dismiss their hard work as leftovers.

Agreed which is why I count it as content. But quite a bit was finished in development of MoM, half of it was released with MoM. The rest was held back for polish. Which was good imho.

Book 8 w/Raid is content.

No complaints there.

Mirkwood is significant content: Good size landmass, Epic storyline, 87 non-Epic quests. Yet you dismiss it as new landmass because it was a paid expansion. That means you dismiss all the time effort that went into the development of the landmass, the questlines, the new tech (e.g., the Skirmish system -- which was a huge undertaking). It was a major release; just because it wasn't free doesn't matter. It is a new landmass within the period you are speaking of.

This is where that second free update went, 4 per year shrunk to 3. Skirmishes was 2 devs some QA and some engineers, is the LOTRO team that small that that was a big %? Skirmishes were specifically added to use mostly existing art and as few resources as possible.

Book 3.1 was a lighter content release, but it was new content nonetheless. New Epic and quest storylines are content. I for one like to see new content added to existing zones; however, like you, I also want to see new landmasses as we progress through Middle-earth.

Do I think the content releases were lighter since MoM? Yes indeed. Do I want to see more come out faster? Also yes. Am I willing to belittle the blood, sweat, and tears the devs invested in producing what we did get because I wanted more? Never.

Belittle? No. Point to the fact that that is the source of the devs got fired rumors? Yes. This is exactly why people assume devs left, because there is less content.
Worry that the lightness of content was not a temporary issue but situation normal going forward? Yes.
Think that WB money and F2P money will rectify the above situation? Yes.

[FutenCake]

The store will suck and Turbine hates Lifers. Oh yeah...free players are all 8 years old....

Many will be.

Not that it is a bad thing at all.

One of the greatest things about my early days playing LOTRO was how many children I played with. Granted many of them were playing with their parents, but still they were fun to play with. The game really lent itself well to that type of family play.

I would like to see it move back to that kind of relaxed atmosphere, but I don't think it ever will. The sped up combat seems to have been a big problem for the old, and young players I know.

[Artanisul]

Many will be.

Not that it is a bad thing at all.

One of the greatest things about my early days playing LOTRO was how many children I played with. Granted many of them were playing with their parents, but still they were fun to play with. The game really lent itself well to that type of family play.

I would like to see it move back to that kind of relaxed atmosphere, but I don't think it ever will. The sped up combat seems to have been a big problem for the old, and young players I know.

We see it more alike then I thought, putting aside my joking post you quoted.

I hope to see a casual build to skill based gaming as the game moves along. SOA content being a playgound as it is now, then getting more and more gritty as we move along. With Enedwaithe being the rest point, as it seems to be to me, and then "back to the grit" as we move forward. Loth being the rest point after Moria.

Could work out if they make the grit meaty enough and the resting points pretty enough. Almost seems like that was the plan huh? Then again hind sight being 20/20 and all that jazz...

[ArahadEketta]

Oh sure, but they already have a template now for F2P, which theoretically should mean that they can jump straight to the good things about F2P.

Namely a far better response to customer desires.

No, Turbine has a template for a mostly instanced game world. Now they are working on developing the model for a mostly open game world. While the engines for both games is based off of the Asheron's Call 2 engine there are enough large differences between them to require separate testing.

[FutenCake]

No, Turbine has a template for a mostly instanced game world. Now they are working on developing the model for a mostly open game world. While the engines for both games is based off of the Asheron's Call 2 engine there are enough large differences between them to require separate testing.

Sure, but the concept of the F2P Hybrid model has taught them a lot that they will be applying here, or that they should apply hear.

This model grants incentive for them to cater more closely to the desires of the player base. You are right in that they are going to have their work cut out for them if as they try to figure out what they can sell, and what they have to give away, in such an open world, but there are some lessons that translate directly across.

[Apophiss1]

Oh sure, but they already have a template now for F2P, which theoretically should mean that they can jump straight to the good things about F2P.

Namely a far better response to customer desires.

Sure, but the concept of the F2P Hybrid model has taught them a lot that they will be applying here, or that they should apply hear.

This model grants incentive for them to cater more closely to the desires of the player base. You are right in that they are going to have their work cut out for them if as they try to figure out what they can sell, and what they have to give away, in such an open world, but there are some lessons that translate directly across.

Rest assured - the catering that will be done is to where the greatest profit will be made. Wait and see when F2Pay goes live.

[Digital_Utopia]

Rest assured - the catering that will be done is to where the greatest profit will be made. Wait and see when F2Pay goes live.

Thank you Nostradamus.

[Nymphonic]

Thank you Nostradamus.

Ok, I laughed!

[gardavil]

You need to get your facts straight, because this is utter hogwash. The only "public knowledge" statements to this effect have been made by players raging on the forums, not by Turbine.

I'd think devs like Orion and Berephon and Made of Lions and the like (those who have been working on this game forever) must get tired of reading this nonsense, as do the newer devs who are pouring their heart and soul into this game -- because they love it and are as passionate about it as the players, if not more so.

I see it differently. There are more sources of information than just Turbine's Official forums or MMO gaming forums. That being said I am convinced of two things:

1.) The Turbine Dev Team and Staff DO INDEED CARE, but they are no longer in charge of anything... they are employees and they answer to the Suits like all the rest of us ultimately do... and I never trust Suits. The Turbine Dev Team and Staff will do what they are told to do by those who do not care about LotRO or the MMO genre the way many of us do... they care about LotRO but NOT in the same way at all imho.

2.) That there were many talented people transferred from the LotRO Project in the last 24 months to work on another project.

So when they say they haven't lost any Staff or there hasn't been a major personnel change at Turbine do I believe it's public relations "spin"?

Yes, I am convinced that is what it is... just "Spin".
(There are other sources that claim to confirm that there has been significant staff changes. Yes these sources may be wrong but in this case I don't believe they are. Even though it is standard policy in MMO industry to make such changes I personally believe this is a huge mistake for LotRO. Turbine should seek to maintain the as many of the original SoA Devs and Staff as humanly possible all the way to Mordor. That is now almost impossible.)

Do I think LotRO is doomed? No.
(LotRO will live on and will even grow stronger. This is the one good thing that will come out of this.)

Am I discouraged about recent events and concerned for LotRO being fully completed as it was originally conceived and planned?

Yes I am, most definately.
(I fear Mordor will be nothing but a Raid Instance and so too will be almost all end of story content because Admins in the MMO industry (in general) are in love with Instancing. As I understood it... originally Mordor and other end of story content was planned and conceived to be open world and I now believe that won't happen due to F2P considerations.)

Do I believe the recent decisions by WB and Turbine's Management will fundementally change LotRO in significant ways... in ways that may make LotRO only faintly what it started out as?

Yes.
(This is the center of my frustration right here, more than any other concerns. I am not a believer in the "Change is good" argument. LotRO would have just fine managed and funded as it was, LotRO is well respected as a MMO and would have been able to attract more than it's share of future customers all the way to Mordor and beyond.)

So if you wish to believe I am a raving lunatic, then go ahead. Many would agree with you. However, I kept my head in the sand for too long when the signs were all there that Turbine has been planning F2P for almost a year and I am not going to keep my head in the sand any longer. I am still playing LotRO and will continue to do so, but don't tell me to buy the "corporate line" from Turbine Management. I don't trust the Management of Turbine anymore.

My objections and complaints are not directed towards the Devs and Staff themselves personally, but for the Management of Turbine and Warner Bros. I do not fault the Devs in any way.

[Mark_J]

Rest assured - the catering that will be done is to where the greatest profit will be made. Wait and see when F2Pay goes live.

Business 101.

[MissingMinds]

Rest assured - the catering that will be done is to where the greatest profit will be made. Wait and see when F2Pay goes live.

If that was true, why did they take leveling sigils out of the game with DDO? There was a lot of profit to be made there, but they took them out. Emmm...

Player fun = player retention.

Player retention = more money to be made.

A 10 day trial is NOT enough to really give any MMO a fair shake down. Your normal person plays maybe 2 hours a day, once or twice a week. So that is 4 hours if that over the period of the trial. You don't learn much at all about the game.

Going F2P means they have an infinite time to learn if they really like the game or not. They can give it a fair shake, which means they are more likely to stick around and spend money.

As for Lifers... what changed for us now, compared to the future? Answer. We are getting paid 500 tp a month, and no change in our content access.

Now we may have to purchase areas like Rohan or what not when they get released as that would put us on equal footing with everyone else. So just save up that TP and once again you have not paid anything more than that initial Lifetime account payment.

[FutenCake]

Going F2P means they have an infinite time to learn if they really like the game or not. They can give it a fair shake, which means they are more likely to stick around and spend money.

If there were a reason to stick around and spend money.

The problem with LOTRO right now is that the best parts of the game are going to be given away for free. F2P players that actually spend money aren't stupid, they will see that their long term prospects in this game are just awful and see no reason to spend money.

For lifers this is bound to be a good thing, if you like easier game play and buffs instead of nerfs.

What I expect it will mean is that the things that cause everyone to quit (game mechanically at least) will have the easiest possible fixes applied to them.

Take Radiance, I expect it will be gone completely, or turned into a character trait. Either way it will be much easier to acquire.

Itemization, actual stat increases. Raid content has to be rewarding for people to buy it. Pickup MMO raids generally don't form for content that provides no benefit to a character. Going to need to be some raids that can be easily classed as "pickup" to get the majority of F2Pers to buy them.

Legendary Item grind: Short term? Bounties will be back, or something similar. Expect super easy leveling of LIs and all that time you just spent on your 65LIs to basically be invalidated. Long term hopefully they fix it right.

An MMO without permanent character progression is only half an MMO. Might as well be playing Neverwinter Nights with friends. F2P customers *will not* pay for the high level "content" in LOTRO until it is actually rewarding.

F2P players *will not* bother paying for content to level to the end game when they can see that the only way to have fun with LOTRO is to just level alts over and over. Why pay for more levels that aren't fun or rewarding?


So... good thing for lifers in that it is bound to mean that we will have some positive action made on the game, as opposed to the unrelenting nerfs we are currently used to. Nerfs seem not translate well into F2P money.

New features, easier access to purchasable content, and enticing character enhancements do translate to money. Should mean good things for lifers. Or at they very least, no worse then things are now.

[ArahadEketta]

[QUOTE=FutenCake;4766712]If there were a reason to stick around and spend money.

The problem with LOTRO right now is that the best parts of the game are going to be given away for free. F2P players that actually spend money aren't stupid, they will see that their long term prospects in this game are just awful and see no reason to spend money./QUOTE]

You do realize that the only part of the game being given away free is the 3 starter zones. If these f2p players realistically want to progress much past lv 22 they are going to have to join at a minimum the premium class of players. This means that in most cases, if they want to progress, they will be shelling out money to play. Yes, theoretically, they could grind out free Turbine Points and not have to pay. However, I am willing to bet that the majority of them will be too impatient to do this so they will will shell out cash. Some will go with the premium option and some will select a subscrption plan.

[elderlygamer]

The problem with LOTRO right now is that the best parts of the game are going to be given away for free.

So you think the best parts of the game are the starter zones? How many other zones have you been to besides the Shire, Ered Luin, and Bree?

[Artanisul]

So you think the best parts of the game are the starter zones? How many other zones have you been to besides the Shire, Ered Luin, and Bree?

Leaving the Shire is for hard core, end game grinding, lunatics. The shire has Wolves, spiders Orc-kind and A WARG! and a TROLL! We have all the horrors you lunatics go galavanting about trying to find. We would really apreciate it if you would take those durned things with ya.

[Duryn]

I was under the impression that the FtP'ers would have access to more than just the starter zones, if I am not mistaken. This is a common misconception. No where has it been stated that FtP'ers have access to 'just the starter areas'. In fact, I believe it was Patience, or another 'blue personage' on here, who attempted to put this myth to a rest.

The FtP'ers will, in fact have access to much of SoA--including the epic quest line; thus, this implies access to areas a bit beyond the 'starter areas'. I believe some side quests, instanced dungeons, etc., will only being accessible with TP purchases for FtP'ers.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong

I see a lot of the same old mis-information being bandied about, and argued over, here and in other forums I visit; despite the fact that the information Turbine has released thus far contradicts many of the 'facts' being thrown around as arguments for, or against, the mis-named Free-to-Play model.

[Knight_who_says_Ni]

I can't remember where I read it otherwise I'd link to it, but it was said that F2Pers will have full access to all the areas in SoA, and the entire epic quest line. However, they cannot complete any of the quests in any other areas other than the starter zones.

It'll probably be a very boring game without the quests...which is why I find this guy quite insane for atemping to lvl from 15-50 without any quests

http://forums.lotro.com/showthread.php?t=336632

It says in the FAQ that F2Pers will have access to epic quest line up to lvl 50, but just the starter quest packs. It also says they have "World Access" for free..I'd assume that means all regions. (aside from MoM and SoM)

[Nymphonic]

Leaving the Shire is for hard core, end game grinding, lunatics. The shire has Wolves, spiders Orc-kind and A WARG! and a TROLL! We have all the horrors you lunatics go galavanting about trying to find. We would really apreciate it if you would take those durned things with ya.

Best post I've read all week. A WARG! A TROLL!

+1 rep for making me laugh!

[Lohi]

and the entire epic quest line.

That is a lot of quests in itself. It'll only be a problem once you leave Bree-land. If you head to Lone Lands (the normal path), then book 2 has quite a lot of quests, all gradual in level. So it won't be a constant grinding of deeds and random enemies. Maybe half random killing and half questing. You can head to North Downs earlier than normal too (because you're out of quests in Lone Lands) and do some of book 3 in parallel). But book 3+ is where the grind is likely to start.

However, it all starts getting golden again in book 5 and up. Lots of interesting quests for level 50 at the cap. Plus you've seen most zones, and can decide to cherry pick just one or two zones to purchase quests for. (not sure if that purchases for just one character or all)

It won't be perfect but it won't be a completely boring grind fest. Especially if you spend a few points wisely here and there.

[FutenCake]

So you think the best parts of the game are the starter zones? How many other zones have you been to besides the Shire, Ered Luin, and Bree?

All of them.

I really did enjoy many of the "end game" zones prior to Moria. However, with the added levels, extreme changes to combat they have made in Moria and again in Mirkwood, and itemization... I doubt many F2P players will have any reason to buy content like Carn Dum or Barad Gúlaran (a place few people even seem to know about).

I enjoyed how they constructed a lot of Moria, I did not enjoy the fact that while Moria itself was beautiful and properly gloomy, it had a seriously unfinished feel. For example, the big, basically empty or sparsely populated places on the walk between the 21st hall and the Redhorn Lodes.

I have nothing at all nice to say about Mirkwood, or the sad state the game was in immediately before, and after it's release. A state that persists today.

No, as the game stands right now the only thing anyone seems to enjoy is leveling alts. When someone says "I am quitting" the only advice anyone has is "Go level an alt and wait for them to fix...everything".

The shire was, and is, fantastic and enchanting. The shire is the only part about this game I can recommend to people.

When people ask me about F2P I have been saying; Download it, play until level 10 or 15. See the newbie zones. You will enjoy it. Then do it again, or quit, because it's all downhill from there.

[ArahadEketta]

Leaving the Shire is for hard core, end game grinding, lunatics. The shire has Wolves, spiders Orc-kind and A WARG! and a TROLL! We have all the horrors you lunatics go galavanting about trying to find. We would really apreciate it if you would take those durned things with ya.

Just be thankful that when my character(s x3) was lv 30 he single-handedly destroyed a Warg invasion of The Shire up north of Hobbiton...

[Nymphonic]

All of them.

I really did enjoy many of the "end game" zones prior to Moria. However, with the added levels, extreme changes to combat they have made in Moria and again in Mirkwood, and itemization... I doubt many F2P players will have any reason to buy content like Carn Dum or Barad Gúlaran (a place few people even seem to know about).

I enjoyed how they constructed a lot of Moria, I did not enjoy the fact that while Moria itself was beautiful and properly gloomy, it had a seriously unfinished feel. For example, the big, basically empty or sparsely populated places on the walk between the 21st hall and the Redhorn Lodes.

I have nothing at all nice to say about Mirkwood, or the sad state the game was in immediately before, and after it's release. A state that persists today.

No, as the game stands right now the only thing anyone seems to enjoy is leveling alts. When someone says "I am quitting" the only advice anyone has is "Go level an alt and wait for them to fix...everything".

The shire was, and is, fantastic and enchanting. The shire is the only part about this game I can recommend to people.

When people ask me about F2P I have been saying; Download it, play until level 10 or 15. See the newbie zones. You will enjoy it. Then do it again, or quit, because it's all downhill from there.

I dunno, for me every MMO I've recently played was best in the starter zones and went downhill from there. I experienced that in WoW, AoC and here.

I think it's a case of the genre, not this game.

[Drifter25]

I have nothing at all nice to say about Mirkwood, or the sad state the game was in immediately before, and after it's release. A state that persists today.

The shire was, and is, fantastic and enchanting. The shire is the only part about this game I can recommend to people.

I must be one of the few people that like Mirkwood (as a zone). I like the atmosphere, feel, and look of it. The first time I seen DG from a distance was just awesome, I took like 20 screenies. Though...the way they use mountains to close off the zone seems a bit cheap and rushed, though could have just done a Loth type of boundary until they decide to open the northern parts (if at all).

That said, I really have not seen a zone that I think is bad. I don't particularly like The Foundations of Stone, but its not because I think its a badly designed zone. Its because its downright creepy and I feel like I need a shower after killing things down there, which means the Devs did a good job, at least for me!

I do love the starter zones, but I wonder how much of that boils down to...thats where your first game experiences take place. In fact in about every RPG (online and single player) the starting areas and character creation are always near the top for me. However, my personal 2 favorite zones right now are Misty Mountains and Eregion.

[Lichbane]

I do love the starter zones, but I wonder how much of that boils down to...thats where your first game experiences take place. In fact in about every RPG (online and single player) the starting areas and character creation are always near the top for me. However, my personal 2 favorite zones right now are Misty Mountains and Eregion.

I know this is a bit off topic, but I've always loved the Breelands myself. Everything after that just feels a little meh. I've always hoped that Turbine would extend south of the Shire and Bree to introduce some more similar rural landscape ... than and fill in the gap between Erid Luin and the Shire.

DAMNIT! There so much more Middle Earth to fill in!!!1!!!11!!

[Kraggy]

I dunno, for me every MMO I've recently played was best in the starter zones and went downhill from there. I experienced that in WoW, AoC and here.

Can't say it's surprising, surely? Look at this game, the care and attention to detail you find in the Shire IMO isn't matched anywhere else. Given that the newbie zones are the first things potential new players see (assuming 'trials' and the like) then the developers make sure they do the very best they can with them.

Once the player is hooked and begins to explore then the devs. figure they can get away with doing less of the polishing and fine detailing.