Why can't people read an NDA?

[Schirf]

If you see me ask "Is the test server down?" it's just to cover for someone else because I'm not in the Beta.

[GregJL]

If you see me ask "Is the test server down?" it's just to cover for someone else because I'm not in the Beta.

That's nice...why doesn't the person ask for themselves in the BETA forums?

[Cerridwen]

That's nice...why doesn't the person ask for themselves in the BETA forums?

Pretty sure that person is just being a smartypants, don't take it seriously.

[GregJL]

Pretty sure that person is just being a smartypants, don't take it seriously.

Well, it's still a valid question...why on earth would the beta testers come to the regular forums to post a question about the beta server? Do they have a brain the size of a flea? Well, ok...knowing the posters in these forums, there are a lot of people who fit that, so maybe I answered my own question.

[Digital_Utopia]

People just do not take the time to think about what they are doing before they post, or they just do not care.

Here are some NDA violators for you turbine

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

Although I didn't notice any NDA violators (just read the first couple/last couple of pages), it's pretty interesting to read about what WoW players think of this game.

A lot of those things are certainly just personal preference, which makes sense. If they're playing WoW they're going to prefer a lot of the things that WoW does. Stuff like graphics and combat. Other stuff like animation/movement and UI I definitely agree with.

[Northwoods]

I also really doubt that an online NDA is enforceable in a court of law.

It doesn't need to be. Not even a little.

From the EULA:
3. We reserve the right to transfer or cease the operation of the Game at any time or to terminate your license to the Software and your access to the Game at any time, without notice or refund, for any reason whatsoever, including. without limitation, as a result of your breach of this EULA, the Code of Conduct, or the Terms of Service, if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or if we discontinue offering the Game.

[SgtAnderso]

It's pretty simple...

You don't talk about Beta outside of Beta... Period...

If you do and you get caught you get booted.

Working for a company that has contracts for US Military and Goverment work the NDA's are very intense and they are not to be messed with. Even though this is a game and NDA is a serious thing that all should not blindly ignore. It's there for a reason and will be enforced, it's there to protect the company and it's IP. I have seen violators for the company I work for go to prison for violating an NDA, don't think that will happen here, but Turbine\WB has to be competitive and they don't want there tech leaked to other companies.

I would also bet the Devs have to sign a NDA and No Competition clause that can prevent them from taking the tech to another company or for working for another company that is a competitor for a period of time after leaving the company.

A few simple things someone can do before posting something about the beta:
1) Ask in the Beta Forums if it is ok? Usually if you have to ask it is probably not ok.
2) Ask a Dev in Game
3) Send a PM to one of the devs or CS before posting.

[TsarithArcher]

Although I agree that an NDA should be taken most seriously, I'm with Yula's post on the first page of this thread. Although I have never broken the Terms of a Turbine NDA, I know that as for other contractual agreements I have bent the rules most liberally upon before.

NDAs will be broken by a small percentage. There is nothing that Turbine or anyone else can do to prevent this. All they can do is minimize the damage that this causes by booting such offenders from Beta and putting them on a Black List.

However, most businesses that have been around for a while (and Turbine has been around for a very long time), recognize that NDAs will be broken and use that to their advantage. Bad Press is still Press and good for the company and name recognition. Apple, for example, has made an Art-form out of controlling NDA leaks and using them to their advantage to create a virtual cult following. There are far worse things that could happen to a company than people violating an NDA.

However, for those of us who do take NDAs more seriously than the rest, there are some things we can do to help. Report suspected violations. Chastise Kinmates that openly share Beta information with the Kin. Ostracize those who patently disregard their obligations, et cetera. There is a proverb about a man who willfully jeopardizes his word is forever a wretch devoid of moral worth...if someone breaks their word to a greater authority than you, how could you ever trust them to not break their word to your Kin, or to you?

[trancejeremy]

It doesn't need to be. Not even a little.

From the EULA:
3. We reserve the right to transfer or cease the operation of the Game at any time or to terminate your license to the Software and your access to the Game at any time, without notice or refund, for any reason whatsoever, including. without limitation, as a result of your breach of this EULA, the Code of Conduct, or the Terms of Service, if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or if we discontinue offering the Game.

Uh, maybe if you had read one line further instead of selectively quoting, you would have seen where I had said, all they could do is cut off your access.

As opposed to taking you to court and suing you for damages.

[Kraggy]

Do they:

1. Get carried away by the excitement of being in the beta and simply forget their instructions?
2. Never read the instructions in the first place?
3. Have a cavalier disregard for the strictures of the NDA?

[*] None of the above

For many it's a variation of 'knowledge is power', or in this case 'knowledge is e-peen'. It's like a 5-year-old who can't keep a secret because telling someone else makes them feel important.

[Bear_]

[*] None of the above

For many it's a variation of 'knowledge is power', or in this case 'knowledge is e-peen'. It's like a 5-year-old who can't keep a secret because telling someone else makes them feel important.

Everyone knows secrets are those things you're only allowed to tell to one person.

[CandiceAurora]

Beyond that, unless you're a lawyer, it can be hard to decipher them.

I also really doubt that an online NDA is enforceable in a court of law. Back in the day, companies would mail you an agreement and you'd have to sign and send back.

So basically, the worst that could happen is they revoke your access to beta. OMG, you don't get to do unpaid work for a million dollar company anymore. How awful.

While yes, I highly doubt Turbine would sue for damages, and are more likely to blacklist you and kick you from the testing phases, now and in the future, an online NDA is a legally binding contract.

Further, the excuse that only a lawyer can read through it is a terrible on. I *generally* read the big pop up box on my screen before just hitting accept. To be frank, I though the NDA for MoM was in pretty plain English. I can't find an online copy and the closest thing I can find is the one from the lorebook, which I would assume they use across their preview testing, and it looks quite similar to the one I read for MoM.

A Few Quotes:

You will have the opportunity to access and play the Game on a promotional trial basis on our Preview server prior to its general commercial release and take advantage of the ability to provide feedback, suggestions and comments to Turbine, on a voluntary basis and only if you so choose, regarding your game-play experience, including your thoughts as to usability, bugs, overall impressions, improvements to the Game and any other information relating to the Game (the "Feedback").

You understand and acknowledge that Turbine may use built-in tracking features to obtain information regarding your use of the Game, and agree that this information is the property of Turbine and may be used by Turbine (and/or its affiliates, publishing partners, licensors and licensees) for any purpose, subject to our privacy policy.

You agree to treat as confidential all Confidential Information (including your password) of which you become or are made aware in connection with your participation in Preview, regardless of whether it is specifically designated as confidential and regardless of whether it is in written, oral, electronic, or other form. The Confidential Information may include, without limitation, trade secrets, know-how, inventions, game interfaces, technical data or specifications, testing methods, business or financial information, research and development activities, product and marketing plans, and customer and supplier information.

For more, wonderfully exciting NDA fun, please click here!

You get the jist. Point one, you get to play our beta, you will not get paid, and we'd like your feedback. Point two, you understand we will track your information, and game play, and may use that information. Point three, you must keep all information private and too yourself, until we (Turbine) say otherwise.

While I've only done the basics in law for my degree (and am by no means a lawyer), a contract does not have to be your signature and a physical document. Even a verbal agreement can be legally binding if you can provide evidence that it occurred such as a recording or whatnot (though these are far easier to dispute, due to the nature of misunderstandings, and the ability for people to twist words around, etc). The legal system is slowly catching up to the fast paced cycle of the online medium, and the "e-signature" is just as valid. Like most court cases, this would be subject to various clauses and documentation evidence. In fact, AOL set a precedent, at one point due to the user being required to click "I Accept" or "I do not Accept" to their Terms of Service, of which was offered to them to read. They won their case because the user chose to accept their terms.

However, on that note, the internet is still far beyond the scope of the law in terms of legally binding agreements and indeed cyber crime. If I were to commit the crime in Australia, that used a server in the USA, that effected a person in England, under which jurisdiction should I be prosecuted? Different countries have too much of a scope for this, and do to the nature of the law, it is easy to wriggle your way out of things.

In a way it is saddening that we can't follow laws, but at the same token, it is saddening how stupid some of them are that push people into the desire to break them.

P.S - If you'd truly like all the references for cases and what not, I'll dig them back up, but they're not too awesomely fun to read, even as someone who is about to enter her law degree. *giggle*

[kerryak]

@ OP:

I agree w/ your post, and have been a member of several betas (for several MMOs) and have never been running around all crazy-like w/ the posting of the beta details.

however, this PARTICULAR series of events is very interesting, in a timeline/emotion sense.

1) it's a beta most current subscribers didn't ask for, or didn't want to see (not trying to derail, and while I'm *personally* optimistic that this can get the Fonz back on the skis, I know many players that he's already jumped the shark.) Personally, I think the games problems are due to a lack of retaining subscribers. So I don't think F2P is a magic bullet, but I'm sure it'll get more cash out of the deal and if they use that cash to retain subs, well, I'll personally be happy - even if it takes a year.

2) SoM is the weakest content addition most players have paid for in an MMO, and it hasn't been followed by anything of note for many players. I know it's not an expansion-expansion, and giving it away for free if you purchased the character slots was a deft marketing move. There are many theories about this, but my personal thought is that SoM content was never developed for a level-increase, and that the decision to add an increase to 65 was made for a cash-grab. In either case, the fact that there are theories about this, and no matter how deft a marketing move is - it's a marketing move. This isn't going to keep anyone entertained for as long as it's been out. And while I agree w/ the tenant "players consume faster than it's created" that's not an excuse/defense of lack of content. (I'm also not knocking the content itself - which is well designed and executed, IMO. SoM had alot less flaws w/ it, and I've enjoyed most of the content. I just don't think it should have been paired w/ a level increase.)

3) finally - current subscribers found out, are finding out (will continue to find out) information via third party rather than the company itself. In a time where many players are making decisions, kinships are dissolving/merging/stopping raids, morale needs to go UP. I don't think it has. (At least, MINE hasn't, I just quit my end-game kin b/c we merged w/ another group of players that have different culture than I'd prefer to remain in. after my first end-game kin that I've been in since 07 dissolved to go play WoW.) I understand not everyone is demoralized - but many are.



--
when you put these things together - you're not creating buzz for your product. many of the players I talk to don't want news b/c they're excited - they want to know if the game will still be worth playing - before F2P launches, and/or after.

and who knows what the beta testers think. I'd assume a few would be excited, but there really are a few players you'll never satisfy. but their motivation in breaking the NDA might not necessarily be out of sharing the good news. It might be motivated out of the idea of saving their friends a few bucks. And if they don't care they're losing their account b/c they themselves are going to leave...

this is completely different than the previous beta buzz, where people are all "man I can't WAIT to find out about this cool thing!!!"

[Mark_J]

The thing about this is that you have to have an active (as in paid) subscription to post on these forums. I'm betting since the beta forums can be blocked to non-beta players that these forums can be blocked to non-subscribed players who are beta testing. I could be wrong, but that's what seems logical to me.

Unless blocking access to these forums for the Beta Users was an oversight, you have a valid point.

[GEARS1980]

One of the biggest lessons I carried away from my business law classes was that "you can never legally sign away a Right protected under the law or a enter a status forbidden by the law". An example, you can't sign a contract to become a slave that you can be held to. (I should talk to my boss about that one.) That's a very broad legal statement and like them all, is under the discretion of the judge/jury at the moment and the mood they are in. What it translated to in class tests was that essentially, when push comes to shove, the party capable of bearing the weight of the ruling will end up bearing the weight of the legal ruling. A good example was when it came to hold harmless agreements, you ride my rollercoaster, and you can't sue me if it collapses. It's an extreme example but ultimately you have certain protected rights under the law to reasonable safety etc. In the end what it comes down to, is when you sue, if you've signed an agreement then you'll walk out of court with 10,000 dollars in your pocket instead of 1,000,000, but... you never would have gotten "lucky" enough to sue in the first place if you didn't sign that agreement to take the ride, and you're not walking out of court, someone is pushing your wheelchair.

What does this have to do with an NDA, not much, but you never know when Turbine will make something so awesome that it will cause your monitor to blow up and permanently remove all of your hair.

[Sapience]

When we see an NDA violation, we evaluate the seriousness of the breech before acting. For most minor breeches, the player is simply removed from the beta program and black listed from all future Beta programs.If the breech is serious you can lose your live account as well.

In some rare cases we do refer violators to our legal team.


Those not in beta may not be aware, but the forums generate a very annoying, very red message at the top of your screen on every page, beta forums or not, if you are a beta participant. it is a constant reminder to watch what you post and where.

[Cabbus]

I find this thread ridiculous to even be posting.

[mjk47]

Those not in beta may not be aware, but the forums generate a very annoying, very red message at the top of your screen on every page, beta forums or not, if you are a beta participant. it is a constant reminder to watch what you post and where.

I guess it just goes to show that no matter how much you do to try and prevent people from making careless mistakes, the ability of human beings (and elves, dwarves, and hobbits) to foul up can always get the better of you!

[Patrickwg]

Although I didn't notice any NDA violators (just read the first couple/last couple of pages), it's pretty interesting to read about what WoW players think of this game.

A lot of those things are certainly just personal preference, which makes sense. If they're playing WoW they're going to prefer a lot of the things that WoW does. Stuff like graphics and combat. Other stuff like animation/movement and UI I definitely agree with.

there are a few that say they are in BETA in that thread

And yup always interesting to see other people opinions on this game

[Jeffor]

I don't know. They snubbed me from a beta for the first time since I joined. I never broke any NDA before. Maybe they were tired of having the boring, NDA-abiding people in beta and wanted some excitement.

[Patrickwg]

I don't know. They snubbed me from a beta for the first time since I joined. I never broke any NDA before. Maybe they were tired of having the boring, NDA-abiding people in beta and wanted some excitement.

should be more invite as beta goes on so you might get one then. Also more people have signed up for this beta then some of the recent ones so less people who got in before will get in this time.

[carlosjuero]

I don't know. They snubbed me from a beta for the first time since I joined. I never broke any NDA before. Maybe they were tired of having the boring, NDA-abiding people in beta and wanted some excitement.

I doubt it is that they "snubbed" you. They likely want to broaden their Beta Test pool and introduce "new blood". Every now and then you need a fresh set of eyes in the testing arena, just to ensure the Noise:Sound ratio is somewhat easy to figure out.

This is the first Beta I haven't been invited too as well, but I certainly don't take it to mean that I have been "snubbed" or anything.

[Skigorn]

People don't read it, they don't understand it (or the concept of it).

Several people in my kin started talking about BETA the past several weeks. I told them that they're breaking the NDA by discussing it. One person didn't realize it and subsequently stopped, one didn't care, another got mad at ME for telling them that, telling me that I was wrong. They then ranted about not being able to help change stuff by staying silent (I continued to tell them to chat about it in Bullroarer or on the BETA forums). He ranted on for a bit, then logged off for whatever reason. I've also seen several bring it up on /glff as well.

Being a part of previous BETAs (but not this one.../rage) I was just trying to save them the agony of being booted/blacklisted but I truly believe people either don't read the NDA or don't understand the concept.

I doubt it is that they "snubbed" you. They likely want to broaden their Beta Test pool and introduce "new blood". Every now and then you need a fresh set of eyes in the testing arena, just to ensure the Noise:Sound ratio is somewhat easy to figure out.

This is the first Beta I haven't been invited too as well, but I certainly don't take it to mean that I have been "snubbed" or anything.

I keep telling myself that as well but applying for it, being a lifer and Friending them on Facebook seems to not have helped me at all :P

[Cerridwen]

Those not in beta may not be aware, but the forums generate a very annoying, very red message at the top of your screen on every page, beta forums or not, if you are a beta participant. it is a constant reminder to watch what you post and where.

Make it a flashing neon pink message, I'm sure that would grab attention (and cause other uncontrollable reflexes).

[Bendin]

Admitting you are in the beta is specifically a breach. While most NDAs have a clause that says if something comes into the public domain by other means it is no longer covered, it is unlikely that Turbine would announce that an individual was in the beta, so that one always has you hosed.

Well, It depends on the wording of the NDA some NDA's authorise the tester to state publically they are in beta but are not allowed to present any other information.

I think from previous betas with Turbine that theirs dis-allows even metioning the tester is in beta.

People don't read it, they don't understand it (or the concept of it).

Several people in my kin started talking about BETA the past several weeks. I told them that they're breaking the NDA by discussing it. One person didn't realize it and subsequently stopped, one didn't care, another got mad at ME for telling them that, telling me that I was wrong. They then ranted about not being able to help change stuff by staying silent (I continued to tell them to chat about it in Bullroarer or on the BETA forums). He ranted on for a bit, then logged off for whatever reason. I've also seen several bring it up on /glff as well.

Being a part of previous BETAs (but not this one.../rage) I was just trying to save them the agony of being booted/blacklisted but I truly believe people either don't read the NDA or don't understand the concept.




I keep telling myself that as well but applying for it, being a lifer and Friending them on Facebook seems to not have helped me at all :P

Maybe upon accepting an NDA agreement have a short random 5-10 question quiz pooled from most common violations? At least this might help with honest lazy ignorance who skip the NDA. For those who don't care nothing except penalties would help imo