Why doesn't lotro have a dps meter?

[atimes]

Unless you are unaware that you need to improve your performance.

"Is the mob dead?"

For this game that's all the performance evaluation you need.

Did the frakkin mob die? If it did then you performed well.

[kerryak]

"Is the mob dead?"

For this game that's all the performance evaluation you need.

Did the frakkin mob die? If it did then you performed well.

I'd also throw in "were you able to talk about beers, and Claire Danes" as successful metrics.

[Dayln]

I am not one of those doomsayers, who say this or that will be the end of this game, but I can tell you that a dps meter, or anything resembling it being allowed, even as a LUI, would probably be the end of the fun of this game for me.

It takes the focus away from what a group should be doing, and focus it on that one aspect of a battle.

It is a mistake

I would probably look elsewhere for an MMO

[ESS2K]

Don't need a DPS meter, a threat meter would be nice. At the same time, I like not having everything spoon fed to me...except boss strats, haha.

[KenR]

This is an absurd argument used by many when trying to eliminate a pet hate of theirs, ignore the collateral damage of all those legit uses of the thing simply because some 'bad men' (and women) abuse it.

Yeah, excellent, let's ban cars (people kill people with them) guns (people kill people with them!) .. it's impossible to remove all perverts from the world so let's outlaw digital cameras .. absurdum ad infinitum.

And the "ruin the game for the rest of us" is laughable, you can simply choose to avoid those idiots who 'abuse' them in your eyes.

I know exactly what you don't like about meters and agree with you, they have their 'downsides', but they are also learning tools and help you optimise your gear and figure out some of the game's mechanics by showing you how various changes affect your performance.

On balance therefore I consider them probably a Good Thing (TM) but am agnostic whether Turbine add them or not .. I just find some of the arguments against them a tad hysterical.

As I explained earlier it's not as simple as banning everything with a "downside". It's a matter of weighing pros and cons. We do it all the time. We don't allow 10 year olds to drive cars even though some would do fine at it. We have banned guns and types of guns, etc. Drinking a beer while in a car even though some could do it and not be legally drunk. It happens all the time in the real world and there is nothing absurd about it.

[Rosvodiz]

Put me down as a no for DPS meters. They really shouldn't be necessary, you should be able to tell without it.

Also who really cares if they aren't doing enough DPS, as long as you finish the instance you should be happy.

And as has probably been pointed out before, it's not always about max DPS. i.e. the hunter might have to fire off a fear arrow thingo etc. etc.

I really can't see something like this benefitting the game at all.

[Khafar]

Don't need a DPS meter, a threat meter would be nice.

Personally, I don't like a built-in DPS meter - gets some people too worked up about their virtual spreadsheet. Er... I meant avatar .

As for the threat mether, that one simply won't happen. They said so a few years back, saying that it would make the game too easy, removing too much player skill from the gameplay. I rather like having some of this stuff be opaque to the players, so we have to figure it out through experience.

Khafar

[Grothaal2]

Personally, I don't like a built-in DPS meter - gets some people too worked up about their virtual spreadsheet. Er... I meant avatar .

As for the threat mether, that one simply won't happen. They said so a few years back, saying that it would make the game too easy, removing too much player skill from the gameplay. I rather like having some of this stuff be opaque to the players, so we have to figure it out through experience.

Khafar

A thread metter? what for? The mob is on you, you have aggro. Stop what you are doing, simple as that

Dps is low, Leader call 'hes not going down fast enough', stop what you are doing, change stances, do your job

Really, I dont get why people want to play a fight the most predictable way possible, with guaranteed outcome.

Myself, I like surprises. I like to see some groups screwing it up. And above all, I get thrilled when that totally screwed situation turn out well, because that will be unexpected, unforseen, and we will get real action out of it and rejoice after the win.

If a guy is a fail, you will probably notice it, a tank not holding, healling not comming, hunters spamming AoE attacks when they shouldnt, if thats so bad, dont group with that ones again.

If I wanted to look at metters or be evaluated by metters, I would play a race game.

Wish that instances were somewhat randomized, lol, that woudl account for a lot in terms of skill.

[Dayln]

Personally, I don't like a built-in DPS meter - gets some people too worked up about their virtual spreadsheet. Er... I meant avatar .

As for the threat mether, that one simply won't happen. They said so a few years back, saying that it would make the game too easy, removing too much player skill from the gameplay. I rather like having some of this stuff be opaque to the players, so we have to figure it out through experience.

Khafar

You are so right... there are times when I wonder if they should show us any numbers... at all.

Just comparisons... like ( this sword has slightly higher dps than that sword ) etc

You hit... really hard

Your will has increased

Not give any numbers at all.

Just thinking outside the box

[Petromir]

A thread metter? what for? The mob is on you, you have aggro. Stop what you are doing, simple as that

Dps is low, Leader call 'hes not going down fast enough', stop what you are doing, change stances, do your job

Really, I dont get why people want to play a fight the most predictable way possible, with guaranteed outcome.

Myself, I like surprises. I like to see some groups screwing it up. And above all, I get thrilled when that totally screwed situation turn out well, because that will be unexpected, unforseen, and we will get real action out of it and rejoice after the win.

If a guy is a fail, you will probably notice it, a tank not holding, healling not comming, hunters spamming AoE attacks when they shouldnt, if thats so bad, dont group with that ones again.

If I wanted to look at metters or be evaluated by metters, I would play a race game.

Wish that instances were somewhat randomized, lol, that woudl account for a lot in terms of skill.

Indeed, pleanty of people should have a clear idea of whos doing what.

There are mez break alerts already, Mini should know whos's taking more damage than they should, If the tank has slections target on he should know who pulled aggro off him, raid leader should know that too. Thats in addition to using your eyes to watch thes lovely graphical representation off what the mystic dice are doing.

[FyreBrand]

I actually based my sole baseline from EQ2. Never played WoW, but I can attest to a certain degree of familiarity to those who have talked about their experiences.

And yes, even in EQ2, certain raid bosses were created with DPS meters in mind, as they became the norm of raiding guilds, until those guilds who didn't use them, fell behind.

There were a couple poorly designed raids and that was quite some time ago before the last couple of expansions (Kunark and SF). The raids weren't designed with dps meters in mind they were designed with timers in mind. There is a huge difference between the two. That has also since been adjusted.

Every top end or serious raiding guild uses tools and no serious raiding guild has "fallen behind". Those are anecdotes and stories people post on the EQ2 forums when they want to nerdrage. If anything has hurt small to mid-sized guilds with raiding it is dwindling population and exclusivity, not addons. Even casual players download ui addons. The poor management of EQ2 is what is to blame for its decline.

I used FFXI, which I'd be willing to go out on a limb and say is host to the most extreme examples of powergaming twinkery ever seen in a multiplayer game. I love the game, but the social demand for players to maximize their performance (on any job) there borders on farcical. Access to combat data (and the understanding of game mechanics gained via that access) is very much used as an exclusionary and discriminatory tool by the community. It's not just hardcore endgame stuff, either; casual groups place (by LotRO standards) incredibly high demands on player performance, as well.

At least with FFXI it's not entirely about topping the parser; buffs, debuffs, job abilities, etc. not only show up in the combat log (and thus in the parser data), but have a much larger impact on group performance than their LotRO equivalents. As such, they're significantly more valued in FFXI than in LotRO or it sounds like they are in WoW. That's a double-edged sword, though; support jobs often have the highest demand placed on their performance due to the impact they can have on everyone else's.

Yah, okay I was wrong about critics being exclusive to EQ2. But I wasn't really wrong about the over-generalization being made (not by you) that addons will mean we're going to do it the "stoopid WoW" way.

When I've done raiding or heroics in EQ2 everyone buffs, debuffs, and does their CC or they get the boot because that is what makes it all work right. My main is a warden (HoT healer, secondary buffer, and tier 2 dps). Even if I'm trying to parse high damage I don't stop healing for it. A good warden/fury will time their skills and try to parse high on the heal and dps chart.

Parsing well is only required in competitive guilds. Competitive guilds in any game are going to require certain performance or gear. We do that here with radiance scores, LI legacies, trait builds, and skill usage.

I agree it could change the game though. It's possible we would do it the idiot wow way, even though I don't think that will happen. I think it's more likely that meters, parsers, and other tools will draw in more competitive people from games like FFXI, EQ2, etc. Some peeps might not like that kind of competition, others will welcome it. I'm ambivalent (I really wanted to use that word in this thread ).

And I totally miss it.... <snip great perspective stuff>

I'd rather joke about beer and Claire Danes superior... acting ability?

<snip more great stuff>

Agreed. There are already jerks on Nimrodel who like to blow their hot air. There are also a lot of pros that do their job well and are really nice. Are parsers and threat meters supposed to magically transform everyone?

The important question is: Why is Claire Danes so damn hot?

[cynyck]

Requiring a certain "GearScore" isn't much different than requiring a certain amount of radiance, certain level of traits, morale, might, agility, or a maxed Legendary.

But see, it's not. GearScore is an add-on that takes the number assigned by Blizzard to a particular piece of gear and adds it to the numbers for each other piece of gear on a character and arrives at a total. It is an arbitrary number, and a piece of gear with stats that are of no use to your character will have the same GS as a piece of gear with stats that are useful.

There are things in WoW equivalent to radiance, traits, etc., although not called by those names, let me refer to them as a build, something we are all familiar with. Your gear score has nothing to do with your build. I had no problem with anyone checking my spec, my individual pieces of gear, my enchants, etc. However, for example - as a Holy Pally there was a trinket (like a pocket item in LotRO) that was considered "best in slot" by every Pally healer in every leading raiding guild I talked to, or whose post I read on a forum. It had a gear score of 200 and I had it equipped - when the cutting edge gear in the game had scores of 265. No knowledgeable Holy Paladin would have accepted any other trinket, yet it gimped my GearScore.

So, that's been my point. A meter can be a useful tool in the hands of someone knowledgeable and level-headed, much as a gun can be a useful tool in the right hands. But both can lead to trouble in the wrong hands. Not the best analogy, but it makes my point I think.

There's also a logical disconnect in your assertion that because tools in WoW created attitudes that you don't like, the same would happen if said tools were available in LotRO. I'd like to think that LotRO attracts an older, more sensible audience, and to use such a heavy-handed generalization is almost insulting to this community. There's no concrete evidence to suggest that what you're stating will happen.

There may be a logical disconnect, but we're humans and logic is not always the simple answer. Just as it may seem illogical to some that a person who survives a plane crash refuses to ever fly again. At least in my case, and I suspect in the case of a few others in this thread, its more a fear of what would happen. Speaking for myself, I left WoW because it became a second job. I had great friends, that I still keep in touch with, and had a blast for quite a while. But I found myself spending more and more time researching my characters, and I felt more and more pressure and less and less fun in raids because for me the best times were when the junk hit the fan and all strats went out the window, and I had to improvise, adjust, basically think on my feet. I'm afraid. I don't want this beautiful, peaceful, desert island I found to be discovered by the real estate developers who are going to do us all a "favor" and bring civilization in (O.K., I have a flair for the dramatic. So sue me.). Don't dismiss me for feeling this way, I survived a plane crash and don't want to fly again.

I'd like to address the notion that linking achievements and GS is to weed out the "bads." As stated previously, GS is nothing more than a facilitator. People can and still do request and reject people from groups based on radiance, morale, stats, and their LIs. Linking achievements is the same thing. People can choose to go with others who have experience, who've done the fights. Do you feel a sense of outrage when you're required to list your raid experience on an application for a raid guild? It's the same exact thing.

Go to any WoW forum, Allakhazam is the best example, and see what people who use and refuse to use GS have to say about it. The majority feeling is that it's used (or mis-used by some people's thinking) to weed out the bads. I'm just reporting what I've read. And yes, it was always funny to see someone LFG for people with gear scores that were equal to, or in some cases higher than, the gear dropping in the instance they were LFG for. Asking for achievements, in my mind, is different. They can only show one thing, that you have done the fight before, and so are a good indicator of your experience.

[FyreBrand]

Go to any WoW forum, Allakhazam is the best example, and see what people who use and refuse to use GS have to say about it. The majority feeling is that it's used (or mis-used by some people's thinking) to weed out the bads. I'm just reporting what I've read. And yes, it was always funny to see someone LFG for people with gear scores that were equal to, or in some cases higher than, the gear dropping in the instance they were LFG for. Asking for achievements, in my mind, is different. They can only show one thing, that you have done the fight before, and so are a good indicator of your experience.

There is a group of players, or rather a player type, that will always look for ways to measure and exclude. They like having a feeling of superiority and exclusivity so they can strut and brag. Nothing is going to change that.

Radiance isn't the same as gearscore, but it is a number assigned to a piece of gear, regardless of how well it fits your build and playstyle, that is sometimes used to measure whether a player will be accepted into a group. That group might not even be heading into a radiance area, but the leader wants to see that the player has radiance because they're equating that with competence.

Whether we use deeds, rank, trait builds, or what not to measure competence we're still using an arbitrary measuring stick for inclusion. Damage parsers and threat meters aren't going to change that. Meters will probably make some content easier and parsers will allow people to throw out numbers in class performance flame wars. We can already do the latter for whatever that is worth.

Performance tools will affect the feel of the game, but I don't think it will affect it quite so dramatically as claimed. Purists, and maybe the really hardcore pros, might choose to not use them. That will attract like minded players. Those who like bells, whistles, doo-dads, gidgets, and gadgets will use them and that will attract like minded players to their guilds and groups. If anything it might make it clearer what kind of pug you want to join, or not, before you get half way through the instance.

[Grampsaz]

Personally, I don't like a built-in DPS meter - gets some people too worked up about their virtual spreadsheet. Er... I meant avatar .

As for the threat mether, that one simply won't happen. They said so a few years back, saying that it would make the game too easy, removing too much player skill from the gameplay. I rather like having some of this stuff be opaque to the players, so we have to figure it out through experience.

Khafar

Come one man lol, they also said we weren't going to have Micro's then we got the Adventures Pack, they said we weren't going F2P here we are weeks from F2P, they said they would only offer convenience items in the store, then they put in those ridiculous morale/pwr pots.

This is a different game now. They are softening up the community (in a screwed up way) to advantage items in the store and they are softening up the community to Plug-ins with this current release of the LUA

Threat/DPS meters will happen. I'll bet ya 500 TP

*Edited to add DPS to the bottom line*

[cynyck]

There is a group of players . . .

Yeah, I think we are in basic agreement, if I read your post correctly. I was viewing radiance as an individual stat that has value, and trying to point out that GearScore does not take individual stats like that into consideration. And I've been trying to show in this thread that absolutes like DPS, HPS, etc. are like GearScore in that they don't measure overall value.

Maybe I'm allowing emotion to color my feelings on this, but feelings and emotion go hand in hand. The facts and stories I've given are valid, so maybe view my opinions on this with an understanding that I've had bad prior experience with meters.

Remember that quest in Trollshaws, the one with the white stag where the hunter believes another hunter stole his kill? And he sends you to talk to that other hunter who tells you about a horrible creature he saw and how he'll never go back there to hunt again? I feel like that guy. Maybe not in so many words, but I tried to convey that in my last post - that I may be jaundiced.

[ArroyoJR]

Lets not forget the programming situation. GearScore strains the servers in WoW, Blizzard devs have talked about this a lot, and one in one of the latest patches they included a way to stop constant polling on the database servers.

The situation (which is rather bad) happens like this. GS and other addons poll the server to pick up the info they need. In other words those addons dont keep a separate database to give you information. Imagine in Lotro if you were to inspect a character every single time you mouse over them. Now imagine doing this in a heavily populated area. Now imagine that all the people in that heavily populated area is doing the same, 200 inspects every 0.1 sec or so (just to throw out a number there). The database server is trying to accomodate all those requests in a timely manner, making a queue of requests to attend to. Mouse lagging, or tooltips showing ?? instead of names (WoW players do you remember this?). In WoW when you have GS and you mouse over a player, the database gets polled and assign a value to gear and then come back and shows you on the mouse over the GS rating the player has. This on mouse over, so the more you move your mouse over a large group of people the more strain you gonna put on the server. And if you move your mouse away from a player, then back, it is another whole new poll, one poll for each item in your equipped inventory, on every player you mouse over, and all of those people in the area doing exactly the same thing without knowing.

People that do not understand programming think some programmer just waves the magic wand and things happen, without knowing whats going on behind, all the variables that have to be taken in to consideration. We are having a discussion in which no one cares about the technological limitations, Because WE DO NOT KNOW WHAT THOSE LIMITATIONS ARE.

So we just blowing hot air here. Every addon that works on server info (server side) strains the servers, lags out, and does a ton of other stuff to the infrastructure. And THESE things are the first things the devs will watch out for. It is not only an issue of how BIG is the server, if it has 4, 8, or any number of cores, or memory, this issue has a lot to do on how the game was coded, how the client side communicates with the server side.

In order to stop the servers from being strained needlessly, Blizzard had to implement an "inspect" policy, in other words, your addons cannot poll the servers more times than XX each XX seconds.

The people saying "This will happen whether you like it or not..." clearly do not understand these simple concepts. Just because another company did something it doesnt mean that every company or every product just need to wave the magic wand to make it happen. People that understand programming, infrastructure, limitations in software/hardware, clearly understand this concept.

Setting aside if people want something or not, the product has its own limitations, and developers have to be very careful walking along the lines of boundaries of those limitations, cause they could cause much bigger problems, like people coming and saying "Damn those servers are really laggy, I loot and get stuck there for 2 mins before I can pick something up" just to make an example.

It doesnt matter how people feel about these addons, the fact is we do not know if the game has the proper variables set for these addons to work. Programming is not about clapping your hands and the lights turning on.

Cyn: This is not aimed at you, you got it the first time I mentioned it.

[Dyfrin]

Lotro doesn't display notifications to the client to even correctly compile a log to get a complete combat analysis. CS stats does an ok job but without more info coming to the client, nothing will change.

[CWood]

FFXI was different as I see largely because many of the game's mechanics were a closely guarded secret by SE, so those inclined to do so could pontificate endlessly about how such-and-such a stat affected such-and-such skill/ability/whatever, much like happens in this game for similar reasons, whereas with WOW Blizzard are a lot more open so there are fewer areas where any debate is useful.

This isn't accurate at all. Maybe six years ago, but the playerbase has since figured out the vast majority of the guts of the system, and that knowledge is applied with ruthless efficiency. Example: Kanican's enmity research. Better have that memorized if you want to tank well.

Also: One reason I say FFXI is more extreme than other games is I've yet to see or hear of another playerbase demanding that players change their entire gear setup (weapon, armor, accessories, everything) for nearly every ability used (sometimes multiple times per ability) for what often amounts to insignificant gains in performance. The attitude that a player must be "perfect" is pervasive enough that some jobs are expected to use third-party hacks and cheat programs just to facilitate playing up to the community's standards.

Were you trying to infer that b/c I did more damage than any other BLM on the server that I held it over others and that I was a jerk about it?

I will vouch for the Hat. The Hat is a good people. Even if he did play BLM.

...there are times when I wonder if they should show us any numbers... at all.

I'd be all for that. Tie the detail level and granularity of comparisons to a relevant character skill or stat (you get both more detailed and less "broad" descriptions as your skill/stat increases), and let all the numbers stay in the shadows. All the e-peeners and numbers monkeys would throw a hissy fit, though.

===

EDIT:

The people saying "This will happen whether you like it or not..." clearly do not understand these simple concepts.

In their defense, I'm pretty sure the "This will happen..." people have all been referring to DPS meters, which can (probably) be done clientside.

[Grampsaz]

Lotro doesn't display notifications to the client to even correctly compile a log to get a complete combat analysis. CS stats does an ok job but without more info coming to the client, nothing will change.

Your absolutely right, which is why there are several requests for that very thing in the LUA suggestions/request forums in Beta.

[Apophiss1]

Come one man lol, they also said we weren't going to have Micro's then we got the Adventures Pack, they said we weren't going F2P here we are weeks from F2P, they said they would only offer convenience items in the store, then they put in those ridiculous morale/pwr pots.

This is a different game now. They are softening up the community (in a screwed up way) to advantage items in the store and they are softening up the community to Plug-ins with this current release of the LUA

Threat meters will happen. I'll bet ya 500 TP

For the very first time...

I agree with you.

I will raise that bet to 5000 TP.

[lf2536]

if you know what you're doing and your group knows what it's doing then there is no need for any meters, if that's not the case a meter won't make any bit of difference. fail tank/DPS/healer will still fail no matter how many meters you give them.

[Grampsaz]

For the very first time...

I agree with you.

I will raise that bet to 5000 TP.

I totally meant threat AND dps meters. Just throwing that out there

[SaintBass]

I still maintain that the "personal use only" meters are going to A) be the first ones we see and B) have the greater potential for personal improvement.

As the API is currently, there is already a proof of concept DPS meter that works, it just requires third party support. The second the API allows access to chat data (specifically the combat log) we can see a greater degree of precision/functionality for CStats as well as a plugins that do nothing but monitor damage and healing output. So once this goes live, there is no reason anyone can't have a DPS meter for personal use with a third party program.

I know a lot of people are talking about group/raid-wide DPS meters so the "leader" (or anyone who has the plugin installed) can see everyone's damage output in real time. That is kind of like your boss looking over everyone's shoulder at what they are doing in real time. Management that feels the need to invest more time and resources in "spying" on their employees rather than organizing/facilitating production. In a group situation, its generally pretty obvious to competent, observant individuals what went wrong when things do go south. Most of the time it is poor timing (did not run to the center), absent mindedness (standing in puddles, clouds, poop) or lag (screw you Comcast). Very, very, very rarely is it DPSers inability to DPS sufficiently. Sometimes it is the DPSers inability to DPS sufficiently while maintaining lower threat than the tank (could be a DPSer OR a tank problem), but rarely is it simply that the DPSer is looking to get a free ride or is too Drunk/High/Stupid to function.

If someone wants to improve, they will take advantage of tools to improve or take advantage of advice on how to improve. This raid-leader/Big Brother garbage is rarely helpful. I have found that groups that have leadership which works to facilitate the success of the group have better success than leadership that focuses on policing the membership.

[Grampsaz]

B) have the greater potential for personal improvement.

How so? Doesn't having someone else in addition to yourself, looking at your rotation and giving suggestions further your improvement?

I know I'd like as many ppl as possible to look at my numbers and rotations and traits and IA's to give me a broader view and maybe a narrower outline.

Its like saying, Fire or Lightning for RK dps. Your going to get the majority to say Lightning, which will give you your narrow outline, but when looking further into Lightning spec, you'll get a broader view with many other suggestions.

[SaintBass]

How so? Doesn't having someone else in addition to yourself, looking at your rotation and giving suggestions further your improvement?

I know I'd like as many ppl as possible to look at my numbers and rotations and traits and IA's to give me a broader view and maybe a narrower outline.

Assuming that people are helpful and rational, yes, it would be more helpful. But I never assume the people are helpful and rational. Those that I have found to be worthy are those with whom I will freely share my "work."

That aside, I have serious issues with micromanagement. It triggers the murder centers of my brain. Makes me want to punch people in the taco... with a truck.