New Vault

[thejawz]

I love the new vault personally, I can just throw thing in and they get put to where they need to go and auto stack. It makes things much quicker and all I have to do is make it longer and quickly scroll through. After a few minutes of learning where it puts things my trips to the vault have gone much quicker.

[Unique]

Other than mis-attributing a quote, nothing toastysoul said is out of line. The analogy isn't great, but then again, it's hard to come up with great analogies all the time.

The first part of his post is fine, but the second half is a rant about getting someone fired and stating that "everyone" hates the new vault, all based on the misquote.

I saw the following in Unique's post. It seems the dev deleted his/her own message, but after Unique posted a reply.

What you saw is what I said - the dev didn't change his post, it's still exactly the same. I thought you would like that there was an official answer to your concern, I only added the color so it would stand out from your questions.

The rest of the questions were my answers - I changed the original post so it's separated now.

Did I misquote? Yes, apparently I did. It was 4am, I had just read through 8 pages of people complaining and I didn't take the time to check my references. You don't throw out the baby with the bathwater though; my point is still very valid. Sarcasm aside, what part of what I said is really hyperbole? What happened to SWG is *not* an exaggeration

Not once did I say it was hyperbole, I was just correcting your perception that what was said was said by a dev.

BTW you say nothing in your post about SWG, and not many people are going to go to the 10 different links you put in your post just to make sense of what you're talking about.

[gildhur]

For a year and a half (if not more) we've lived with a max limit of 120. We were told it was simply impossible to give us more. But now that the game has a cash shop in it suddenly y'all found a way to sell us more space. How 'bout that? So turbine completely trashed the vault which, mind you, wasn't broken in the first place - and all for the love of money.

Um. lol. You don't think that they "trashed the vault" because that made it possible to give us more storage? Those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other? A complete vault revamp and simultaneous expansion in storage capability are totally unrelated? Really?

O Rly? Because nobody asked for manual sorting at any point in the closed beta, open beta, or live release...

Not getting one specific item enacted in this specific release does not mean they're not listening. Quite the opposite, since Ransroth has specifically said that they are trying to get manual sorting to work with the new system, but it's going to take some time. Why would they do that if they're not listening?

For further information, the following is a list of things changed between the start of beta and launch based on specific player feedback:

• Champ/Guard Let Fly range reverted
• F2P players tells optionally restricted instead of disabled completely
• Eglain rep requirement for Volume I Book 2 removed
• Vault bags added, search added, filters refined
• Wardrobe accepts gear, not just cosmetics
• Old classic instance rare drops added to barter at various levels
• IL/AA mount drunk effect moderated
• Temporary mount timer now uses game time instead of real time
• Quest Guide map colors
• Quest UI rewards moved from top to bottom
• Haunted Burrow (Fall Festival) effects moderated
• Captain legendary trait reversal
• Store pot cooldown doubled
• Rep mounts removed from store
• Stat tomes added to instance loot instead of just random world drop

In fact, I can't think of a single thing that didn't see some revision based on feedback. But you're totally right. They don't listen to us at all. (/waits for the argument to change to these changes being minor or irrelevant rather than not existing at all)

[Ayrolen]

For a year and a half (if not more) we've lived with a max limit of 120. We were told it was simply impossible to give us more. But now that the game has a cash shop in it suddenly y'all found a way to sell us more space. How 'bout that? So turbine completely trashed the vault which, mind you, wasn't broken in the first place - and all for the love of money. It's quite disappointing actually - I expected better from Turbine. But it's clear to me that making money trumps all other concerns.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you just not taken the time to read any of the other replies in this thread? Try to follow along, please. I'll be as simple as I can.

If they'd given us more vault space with the old vault design, it would have meant adding yet another "bag" to the vault design, which meant having to talk to the vault-keeper to open the main vault and then open up all of the additional vaults + one more, which is what was causing all of the server performance issues. With the new design, it opens one window. ONE.

This is not difficult to understand, if you could clear some one of the angry haze from your head for just a moment. They didn't change the vault to piss us all off. They did it due to SERVER PERFORMANCE. Now Ransroth is trying his damndest to make the transition as smooth as possible and people are still waving their torches and pitchforks around, demanding the old vault back. NOT YOURS. Provide feedback on how to improve functionality, but stop acting like children who have had their lollipops taken away and had them replaced by poop on a stick. It's embarrassing to see adults behaving like this.

[macdadg]

The dropdown menu for sorting would be really useful, except that the categories are often confusing. For instance, I put a legendary club in my vault. It will not show up under "weapons" and there is no category for "legendary items." In fact, it shows up under "clubs." (Oddly, I did not see a category for swords despite having several non-legendary swords in my vault.)

For the filter dropdown to be really useful, it needs a bit more work.

To be a little positive about it, I like having the name of the item next to the icon. I also like the auto-stacking that goes along with the new format. No trying to match flax colors that are a half shade apart... just drag and drop.

If I recall correctly the Vault was part of the LUI API they released. Hopefully someone will come up with something that will be flexible enough to please everyone.

Unfortunately no, the vault is not in the LUA, at least not yet.

[gildhur]

Yeah the new vault is all about server performance...right. Let me know when you see all the improvements to the lag because they destroyed the vault. Just like we had to live with the ****** social panel (scrolling AND paging...***) because that was going to solve the lag problems. Hmmm, lag is worse than ever now. Didn't seem to help one damn bit, but we're still stuck with an inferior version of the panel. Now we get the same lag and we have a worse vault user experience.

Strange. I haven't seen any lag at all in the last three days of playing.

[Toastysoul]

BTW you say nothing in your post about SWG, and not many people are going to go to the 10 different links you put in your post just to make sense of what you're talking about.

Well, if you can't follow along, that's not my problem. Fortunately, I don't care if you dislike my writing style.

Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you just not taken the time to read any of the other replies in this thread? Try to follow along, please. I'll be as simple as I can.

If they'd given us more vault space with the old vault design, it would have meant adding yet another "bag" to the vault design, which meant having to talk to the vault-keeper to open the main vault and then open up all of the additional vaults + one more, which is what was causing all of the server performance issues. With the new design, it opens one window. ONE.

This is not difficult to understand, if you could clear some one of the angry haze from your head for just a moment. They didn't change the vault to piss us all off. They did it due to SERVER PERFORMANCE. Now Ransroth is trying his damndest to make the transition as smooth as possible and people are still waving their torches and pitchforks around, demanding the old vault back. NOT YOURS. Provide feedback on how to improve functionality, but stop acting like children who have had their lollipops taken away and had them replaced by poop on a stick. It's embarrassing to see adults behaving like this.

Deliberately obtuse is the continued insistence that anyone that doesn't like the new vault is "acting like a child" because they refuse to simply accept a rushed, haphazard system. Yes, haphazard. Anything that takes *more* clicks and *more* time to do the same thing the old one did is haphazard, and broken.

Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else's, however they chose to express it. Why don't *you* act like an adult and try to understand that not everyone has to "suggest features" as a way of expressing dislike for the poop on a stick that has replaced our vaults.

Here is my feedback on how to improve functionality: Go BACK you fools! I'm am very certain that they can accomplish what they need to on the server back end, and present a UI that is sufficiently similar to old one to appease the over [hyperbole]One Billion[/hyperbole] customers that DO NOT WANT the new UI. Lack of Manual Sort is the coup de grace to the new UI plain and simple. OK, so they implemented named chests, no names on the icons, and "smarter" (lol rly?) auto-sorting. None of those things would matter as much as being able to have an item stay in the slot I put it in, in the bag/chest I put it in. The change that makes people so angry boils down to text descriptions and auto-sort. I'd wager a couple gold that if they had delivered the system with the UI as it is, but with Manual-sort, 120 individual spaces (as in the mock-up posted earlier), and naturally a no text option, this thread would have been dead already.

BTW, WTH is with the price jack-up on the shared storage? 1000 points per 10? Bonus points to pay for it aren't even credited fully and they are already raising the prices! The left hand of this disaster just doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

[gildhur]

Deliberately obtuse is the continued insistence that anyone that doesn't like the new vault is "acting like a child" because they refuse to simply accept a rushed, haphazard system. Yes, haphazard. Anything that takes *more* clicks and *more* time to do the same thing the old one did is haphazard, and broken.

It takes more time/clicks to do some things, not all things. It takes less time to add things to the vault. You just drag from the bag to the vault without looking at all. In the old vault, you had to make sure you were placing it in the right bag and the right square. That took extra time. It also takes less time to open. It opens to the full listing with one click. Before, it opened to the main bag then you had to tobble your inventory or press individual vault bags to open more than that. I simply don't see why we're having this discussion. Yes, it makes visual organization more difficult, but they're working on a way to improve that for the future. However, it also makes non-visual organization a whole lot easier. Not everyone is visual.

None of those things would matter as much as being able to have an item stay in the slot I put it in, in the bag/chest I put it in.

Again, FOR YOU. YOU prefer a manual organization. Not everyone does. Why is the system broken because it no longer functions the way YOU would prefer it did?

[sirwillow]

Yeah the new vault is all about server performance...right. Let me know when you see all the improvements to the lag because they destroyed the vault. <edited out> Now we get the same lag and we have a worse vault user experience.

I'm not sure what your issue is then, as I've seen a very noticeable decrease in lag, particularly in high pop areas like the 21st hall. And it'll be even more noticeable in places like the moors and other high-lag areas when people get out there.

Why the moors? Because the vault is no longer attached to the characters and part of the load to everyone's computers. Less info to load means less lag.

[SirGandelphi]

I want the old vault system back ! - - the graphical presentation of your vault items, with all showing at once, and being able to position your items visually vertically / horizontally was easy to use and let you find items fast.

This new system, to put it in plain language, simply sucks. Makes me want to stop playing the game.

Geodel
Windfola

[Saeta]

While my trips to the vault are taking longer.

Even though I've reorganized all my vaults at least twice in an attempt to make things easier to find and am using all 10 chests in the vault.

I love the new vault personally, I can just throw thing in and they get put to where they need to go and auto stack. It makes things much quicker and all I have to do is make it longer and quickly scroll through. After a few minutes of learning where it puts things my trips to the vault have gone much quicker.

Everyone is insisting that because the vault works or does not work for them, it should work or not work for everyone else. However, we are not clones of one another, and the system that works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another. Why is that so hard to accept? Instead, bullies on both sides are frantically posting trying to force everyone who disagrees admit they are wrong.

Bottom line? The old vault where I was able to put something in a specific spot in a chest worked better for me than having things sorted alpha in each chest.

It's visual overload for me when I first open the vault and everything looks like a mess with the item names taking up 2/3 of the space. It probably would work better for me if there was some kind of separation for each chest when viewing All.

This isn't something that is going to grow on me or that I'm going to get used to and one day find I like. The "new" vault system isn't something new to LoTRO. It is the Shared Storage and Vendor storage system. After all this time, I still have trouble finding what I want in Shared Storage or on the Vendor.

Sure, I like that each chest "magically" shrinks and expands to accept the number of items I toss in it. That is a plus for the new system.

While these three changes are in the works ...

width adjustment capability
toggle on/off item descriptions
renaming of chests

Without the ability to manual sort items, the new vault will still be problematic for me and others. Asking for the ability to manual sort items doesn't mean alpha sort shouldn't continue to be an option. Give me the option to make the vault work for me as well as it works for others.

[robnkarla1]

I personally think that one of the reasons why the vault was switched to the new format is also a primary reason why we lost manually sorting and it will take some time to add back in.

Previously I believe the old vault system was a static data storage (i.e. there was space reserved for every slot even if there was absolutely nothing in the vault at all), and this amount of storage space was created for every single character created whether they filled the vault up to capacity or not. With this type of set-up manual sorting is fairly easy as each slot is determined seperately.

From this it seems that we've gone to a dynamic storage that is much more flexible in terms of data storage space. Hopefully, gone are the days where a plethora of Level 1/2 trial characters hog up so much of their storage space (and probably one of the reasons they were abe to relaxe the level requirement for storage with the update). But unfortunately they have to come up with an alternative to the manual storage by adding fields and or other mechanisms to catch and maintain sort order which can take time.

Personally, I love the new storage system as it "fits" me better.

[Jumi]

Yeah, this new vault is about as bad as it can get. I dont think they could have come up with a worse idea if they sat down and tried to think of a worse one. Why did they change it?? Did someone complain? I hope that one person is now happy. Bring back the old look!!! I LIKED the way I had all my stuff organized. If it ain't broke, don't effing try to fix it....

[Ptar]

I can't say I'm thrilled with the new vault. Most everyone I deal with hate it.

But, it appears we are stuck with it.

That said, a small change would help me: allow us to name our vaults. If we can't see what's in them when sorting new stuff, a name will help in sorting and finding our things. I hope that doesn't pose to great a challange for programers. It will take up memory.

[cfurlin]

I can't say I'm thrilled with the new vault. Most everyone I deal with hate it.

But, it appears we are stuck with it.

That said, a small change would help me: allow us to name our vaults. If we can't see what's in them when sorting new stuff, a name will help in sorting and finding our things. I hope that doesn't pose to great a challange for programers. It will take up memory.

Agreed, as you already know.

However, if the ability to name vaults is a challenge for the programmers, then I am seriously concerned about the quality of code in the rest of the game.

I'm just really surprised this made it through beta, since there were so many complaints about it.

[macdadg]

I personally think that one of the reasons why the vault was switched to the new format is also a primary reason why we lost manually sorting and it will take some time to add back in.

Previously I believe the old vault system was a static data storage (i.e. there was space reserved for every slot even if there was absolutely nothing in the vault at all), and this amount of storage space was created for every single character created whether they filled the vault up to capacity or not. With this type of set-up manual sorting is fairly easy as each slot is determined seperately.

From this it seems that we've gone to a dynamic storage that is much more flexible in terms of data storage space. Hopefully, gone are the days where a plethora of Level 1/2 trial characters hog up so much of their storage space (and probably one of the reasons they were abe to relaxe the level requirement for storage with the update). But unfortunately they have to come up with an alternative to the manual storage by adding fields and or other mechanisms to catch and maintain sort order which can take time.

Personally, I love the new storage system as it "fits" me better.

I doubt that they used a static data structure for the vault space, especially with the level locks that were in place. And even in a dynamic sized system, it can still be built for manual sort, and very easily. You basically have 2 lists, one list of every item in the game, each being it's own node with a pointer to a data container and location, and another lost of spaces available in your vault, with a pointer to an item description. When you put an item into the vault, a pointer to that item is copied into the vault's location node, and the value of the stack size is also copied over.

Managing 2 separate lists, and making a list out of the items that are in both lists (by copying pointers) is a sophomore level Computer Science degree project. It isn't hard.

What I have a very hard time figuring out is why the front end was so intertwined with the back end that both had to change at the same time. If done using object oriented design, the front end and back end should be completely separate, and they should be able to rip out and replace the entire back end every development cycle and not change the front end at all.

[TheREALify]

Um. lol. You don't think that they "trashed the vault" because that made it possible to give us more storage? Those two things have absolutely nothing to do with each other? A complete vault revamp and simultaneous expansion in storage capability are totally unrelated? Really?

That wasn't what I meant at all. I don't think it's a coincidence that they figured out a way to give us more vault space at the same time that they figured out how to charge us real money for it. If the new vault storage was available for in-game gold I'd feel differently.

In fact, I would imagine that they came up with this "vault revamp" some time ago but were unwilling to implement it because they knew it would be wildly unpopular. F2P changed the equation. Pure speculation of course...

Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you just not taken the time to read any of the other replies in this thread? Try to follow along, please. I'll be as simple as I can.

If they'd given us more vault space with the old vault design, it would have meant adding yet another "bag" to the vault design, which meant having to talk to the vault-keeper to open the main vault and then open up all of the additional vaults + one more, which is what was causing all of the server performance issues. With the new design, it opens one window. ONE.

This is not difficult to understand, if you could clear some one of the angry haze from your head for just a moment. They didn't change the vault to piss us all off. They did it due to SERVER PERFORMANCE. Now Ransroth is trying his damndest to make the transition as smooth as possible and people are still waving their torches and pitchforks around, demanding the old vault back. NOT YOURS. Provide feedback on how to improve functionality, but stop acting like children who have had their lollipops taken away and had them replaced by poop on a stick. It's embarrassing to see adults behaving like this.

There's no need for condescension. It makes your argument no clearer. And "It's embarrassing to see adults behaving like this" could just as easily be said of the tone and manner of your post as well, could it not?

I have no desire to debate the topic with you. You could say my view is cynical, I might say your view is naive, we may go round and round endlessly and nobody wins. I'm not going there. Let's just say we disagree on motives and side-effects.

None the less, for me, and I believe many others, the "I can see everything at once and it stays where I put it" criteria is the only one against which the new vault will be measured. Without the functionality we've had for 3 years the vault is anything but an improvement.

[ValcyrVexx]

If they'd given us more vault space with the old vault design, it would have meant adding yet another "bag" to the vault design, which meant having to talk to the vault-keeper to open the main vault and then open up all of the additional vaults + one more, which is what was causing all of the server performance issues. With the new design, it opens one window. ONE.

Which opens JUST as slow if not SLOWER than the previous vault did.

But you miss COMPLETELY what he said when Turbine would not hear about giving us extra bank slots until "oh look, we can bilk more money out of our players" came along and BAM more vault space with a broken mechanic that is not useful to many (i.e. not all) players in the game.

This is not difficult to understand, if you could clear some one of the angry haze from your head for just a moment. They didn't change the vault to piss us all off. They did it due to SERVER PERFORMANCE. Now Ransroth is trying his damndest to make the transition as smooth as possible and people are still waving their torches and pitchforks around, demanding the old vault back. NOT YOURS. Provide feedback on how to improve functionality, but stop acting like children who have had their lollipops taken away and had them replaced by poop on a stick. It's embarrassing to see adults behaving like this.

If you're embarrassed by this, you should really get off the interwebs...

Perhaps they didn't take your lolipop and replace it with poop-on-a-stick, but they did mine. With the move to F2P, my friends have quit the game. I was the only sucker among them who bought a lifetime. The only reason I had to come back to play this game in FTP was just as a diversion of whatever was going on.

The new vault makes that a chore. It is an eyesore. I hate it with a passion. I opened up my Loremasters vault to check the new wardrobe and whatever, and ironically enough, at 3am both the wardrobe and shared storage opened a good 10 seconds before the new vault. All I saw was a jumbled auto-sorted mishmash of ****.

No, viewing 1 chest at a time isn't a fix. No, clicking through a 300 option filter list isn't a fix. No, stretching it down isn't a fix.

This may have fixed "server performance" but it broke vault performance.

[FireDance]

Try going in against a Sicilian when death is on the line.

Hello! Joo keel my vault! Prrrepare to die!

Yes the new vault is really really really really bad. Hate hate hate hate hate. At least consider giving us the option of the old vault, please.

[DougHillman]

The new vault makes that a chore. It is an eyesore. I hate it with a passion. I opened up my Loremasters vault to check the new wardrobe and whatever, and ironically enough, at 3am both the wardrobe and shared storage opened a good 10 seconds before the new vault.

The new vault takes much longer to open the very first time than it does after that. On mine that are completely full at 120 items, they open just as quickly as the old vault did once I"m past that first viewing.

[zPolarBear]

Re: New Vault: Suggestion

Phew
I've spent almost 3 days on this thread; read the dev. diary; and scoped out the bag addons for 'Another' MMO (or AMMO for short ).
The devs do see the issues, but many of us don't agree with their current solution.
(if you haven't read the Developer Diary: Vault Changes, please take a moment; it will give insight into this whole thing.)

So, what I've found is that some people really do like auto sorting, and others really do like to see vast arrays of icons, and some like lists (tiny icon with good text).
(over-simplification coming up...)
That is because some of us (about 75%) work with the standard school methods and some work with Visual. School method I mean is: Read, memorize, check off test. Visual is more whole-picture and/or placement; that is, text does not communicate as effectively as what we see, and where it is.

Yes, I happen to be in the Visual category; I remember where something is on a page or in an inventory; I match patterns much faster than I can read text. Some folks (like my wife), really do like English though and reading.
("Inconceivable..." )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, I have a suggestion that is based on what is coming, and on a suggestion I saw earlier in this thread, and some of the fantastic efforts put into LUA based solutions in AMMO.

Background: We are already getting Icon Only and Horizontal expansion. This helps with people that like to see many items at once. But having many icons and only one sort applied is really painful. Chests were added, and named chests are coming, but that still only gives one-sort-at-a-time results...
So, a suggestion of being able to "tear off" chests to view them along with the main chest was wisely proffered. This brought to mind an Idea <lightbulb>

A Simple Idea: (...that grew =)

• Add /Tabs\ for each of the chests which Tear Off
• Give each Chest a separate sorting choice.
• Each Chest Tear Off remembers it's size and position.
• Each Chest has Text/No-text, Big Icon/Little Icon, setting.
• Click-n-Drag items to a new Tab.
• Highlight the Tab, when you drop an item in.

This strongly parallels the comm/chat interface, which btw, has tear off capability =D
This would allow quickly flipping back and forth between Chests and would fit right in with the current presentation. When you drop an item in that is stacked in another tab, you could Highlight that Tab to let me know where it went.

Now, just having multiple views of the same sort-option would be quite lame, so, naturally each Chest will have it's own sorting choice(s) assigned to it -- by Drop-down no doubt or a right-click-select configuration dialog better yet .

And, naturally, each Chest that is torn off would be resizeable, have text or no-text, large or small icon, and have it's location memorized.

Now add the ability to hide the Tab's name once torn off, and the ability to right-click select re-attach and you have quite a powerful Vault; most of which is handled client side :->

Here's to hoping. =D
And to hoping the Drop-downs in the Vendors are replacable by Icons/buttons or mini-tabs too ... <angelic smile>

- - - - -
P.S.
Most of this can be done Client side and have no affect on the DB back end or on transmitting the inventory to the Client. Changes to the client can be deferred transactions, as late as log out time, and reloading configurations is already being handled with deferred transactions, I believe.
The Tabs could be configured as: Top, Right, Left, Bottom, or Off (use drop-down)) (Drop-downs are fine for configuring, but not as a frequent, day-to-day activity; that's why buttons and tabs were introduced, IMO.)

[LetoAtreidesII]

I also loathe the new vault system. Effective use of the new vault is dependent on the filter system, and the main problem with the filter system, as I see it, is that it's only really useful if you already know what's in your vault or what you're looking for. The way the vault is now, there is no good way to see, at a glance, the entire contents of your vault.

The comprehensive view of your bank contents under the new system is fairly useless. It is an unwieldy and unintelligible mess. It is not sorted in a meaningful way, nor do I believe it possible for any automatic sorting system to order it in a meaningful way. I believe that even proponents of the new system would agree that the filters are necessary to make any sense of the new bank if you have a large number of items in it. But the filters do not give you the functionality of the old system.

In order for the filters to be useful, you have to already know what you want to get. This works fine if you already know what the character has in its vault or if you have a very specific purpose. It does not work if you are doing a general survey of your vault contents or have a more general purpose.

For example, if you are checking your vault for something valuable to sell (AH market value, not vendor value, so any auto-sort system would be completely worthless there) or looking for junk to get rid of to clear space, the filter system would not help you very much. However, under the old system, you may already have put all objects you intended to sell in one bag, or objects of lesser/dubious worth in a particular corner of a particular grouping/cluster of items, and would thus be able to locate such objects fairly quickly and without hassle. The new bag system does not let you sort things within each bag, nor are there enough of them to really organize your inventory.

Under the old system, you just opened your bank and you could instantly take stock of all your possessions. Under the new system, in order to take stock of all your possessions, you have to go through the tedious process of clicking on each individual filter. Even then, you cannot see the information all at once. You cannot have more than one filter up at once, much less all of them. Under the old system, with a self-organized inventory, you effectively had all the information from every filter onscreen at once.

Without the ability to manually sort, I'm afraid that no amount of improvement to the new vault system will match the functionality of the old system nor alleviate the flaws of the new one. The problem is that vault inventory has to be meaningfully sorted to be useful to a user, and that the sorting of the plethora of items in this MMO, at least, is too arbitrary and subjective for any auto-sort mechanism to satisfactorily address.

[zPolarBear]

A thought:
If Manual Sorting puts a load on the system, with lots of positional data up loaded, and leads to lag, then perhaps an intermediate suggestion.

• Give each Chest it's own query or sort.
• Allow only one Chest to be manually sorted/arranged.
• Save the manual arrangement as a player parameter that is loaded/saved on a deferred transaction.

This would mean that only people with a manually arranged Chest will see a delay in the system; much of which will be absorbed during the first several minutes of play. So, if you don't go to the Vault keeper first thing, you may not notice the deferred load, but if you do, then you may have to wait 8-10-12 seconds to get you custom arrangement to trickle through...

Not perfect, but it may be more in line with performance goals of the management. I don't know. All we can do is suggest and try to work with them...as long and painful as that may be for us...at least it has a chance of change.

[Thoroval]

Re: New Vault: Suggestion

Phew
I've spent almost 3 days on this thread; read the dev. diary; and scoped out the bag addons for 'Another' MMO (or AMMO for short ).
The devs do see the issues, but many of us don't agree with their current solution.
(if you haven't read the Developer Diary: Vault Changes, please take a moment; it will give insight into this whole thing.)

So, what I've found is that some people really do like auto sorting, and others really do like to see vast arrays of icons, and some like lists (tiny icon with good text).
(over-simplification coming up...)
That is because some of us (about 75%) work with the standard school methods and some work with Visual. School method I mean is: Read, memorize, check off test. Visual is more whole-picture and/or placement; that is, text does not communicate as effectively as what we see, and where it is.

Yes, I happen to be in the Visual category; I remember where something is on a page or in an inventory; I match patterns much faster than I can read text. Some folks (like my wife), really do like English though and reading.
("Inconceivable..." )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, I have a suggestion that is based on what is coming, and on a suggestion I saw earlier in this thread, and some of the fantastic efforts put into LUA based solutions in AMMO.

Background: We are already getting Icon Only and Horizontal expansion. This helps with people that like to see many items at once. But having many icons and only one sort applied is really painful. Chests were added, and named chests are coming, but that still only gives one-sort-at-a-time results...
So, a suggestion of being able to "tear off" chests to view them along with the main chest was wisely proffered. This brought to mind an Idea <lightbulb>

A Simple Idea: (...that grew =)

• Add /Tabs\ for each of the chests which Tear Off
• Give each Chest a separate sorting choice.
• Each Chest Tear Off remembers it's size and position.
• Each Chest has Text/No-text, Big Icon/Little Icon, setting.
• Click-n-Drag items to a new Tab.
• Highlight the Tab, when you drop an item in.

This strongly parallels the comm/chat interface, which btw, has tear off capability =D
This would allow quickly flipping back and forth between Chests and would fit right in with the current presentation. When you drop an item in that is stacked in another tab, you could Highlight that Tab to let me know where it went.

Now, just having multiple views of the same sort-option would be quite lame, so, naturally each Chest will have it's own sorting choice(s) assigned to it -- by Drop-down no doubt or a right-click-select configuration dialog better yet .

And, naturally, each Chest that is torn off would be resizeable, have text or no-text, large or small icon, and have it's location memorized.

Now add the ability to hide the Tab's name once torn off, and the ability to right-click select re-attach and you have quite a powerful Vault; most of which is handled client side :->

Here's to hoping. =D
And to hoping the Drop-downs in the Vendors are replacable by Icons/buttons or mini-tabs too ... <angelic smile>

- - - - -
P.S.
Most of this can be done Client side and have no affect on the DB back end or on transmitting the inventory to the Client. Changes to the client can be deferred transactions, as late as log out time, and reloading configurations is already being handled with deferred transactions, I believe.
The Tabs could be configured as: Top, Right, Left, Bottom, or Off (use drop-down)) (Drop-downs are fine for configuring, but not as a frequent, day-to-day activity; that's why buttons and tabs were introduced, IMO.)

I like this post. Great ideas.

[zPolarBear]

Thanks Thoroval. Nice to know the work was appreciated -- and I'm sure the dev's feel the same. So, for any Dev's on line: Thanks for the efforts and keep the (good) changes coming.